Various II:76 Ciphe...

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# [Closed] Various II:76 Cipher solutions...

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(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Without gematria the puzzle is relegated to being a substitution cipher.

What is Gematria other than substitution?

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Posted by: @herupakraath

Without gematria there is no effective way to convert the numbers into ideas, especially the value 89.

You don't have to convert the numbers into ideas to solve a riddle. They could be coordinates, word counts, a secret code or whatever. Numbers and letters don't have to carry ideas, do they?

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(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

What is Gematria other than substitution?

Mathematical, as opposed to simply substituting symbols.

(@aleisterion)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Welcome to the club of those who believe it was intended for them. We will see what comes from that. Keep up the great work.

Thanks! We will do that.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

By the way, if you want to try to answer my question about what makes you think that the two verses belong together you are very welcome to do so. I think the layout of the writing makes it clear that "What meaneth this, o prophet?" doesn't pertain to both verses.

From "What meaneth this" on doesn't have anything to do with it. The line that adds to 777 is this:

"Aye! listen to the numbers & the words: 4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L."

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

And of course I would be glad to know what makes Leah so much more special than Rose in regards to Liber L. As I said you are welcome to explain your point.

I don't think I wrote that Lea was "more special than Rose". In fact, Rose was much closer to Aiwaz than either Lea or Aleister, at first -- without any initiatic link at that. That is why we hold that Aiwaz was not merely the HGA of Aleister Crowley, but the supernal intelligence guiding all humanity. Lea Hirsig, the Ape of Thoth or Tahuti (vide L 2:39), simply happens to be one that inspires and influences us in a paranormal way.

93s

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Posted by: @herupakraath

Mathematical, as opposed to simply substituting symbols.

So when you substitute a letter with a number, it is NOT substitution? Only when the letters are substituted you can apply mathematics. Or do I get something wrong here?

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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Numbers and letters don't have to carry ideas, do they?

Yes they do, otherwise they are meaningless.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @aleisterion

From "What meaneth this" on doesn't have anything to do with it. The line that adds to 777 is this:

I know. But what meaneth THIS must pertain to something, and we all think (I think) it pertains to the riddle. Now I would claim that II:75 is not included in this question. For one, the layout implies it very clearly with II:76 starting a new passage in which the question is included, and also the question makes no sense for II:76 because there is no hidden meaning in it. This is just a valid objection to question and thereby strengthen or weaken your argument, no offenses meant. Which is hopefully what you would like to happen.

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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

What is Gematria other than substitution?

Mathematical, as opposed to simply substituting symbols.

But what exactly says that it has to be that?  Why can it not be a number and/or letter substitution cipher?  Why do the numbers and letter have to represent ideas instead of just numbers and letters?  I cannot recall anything in AL saying that it has to be gematria that unlocks it.

I can't be the only person who has thought this.

Yes they do, otherwise they are meaningless.

How so?  There are plenty examples of other kinds of ciphers throughout history.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Numbers and letters don't have to carry ideas, do they?

Yes they do, otherwise they are meaningless.

So you agree that letters and numbers are substituted? And didn't you say once the solution doesn't have to have any meaning?

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @aleisterion

"Aye! listen to the numbers & the words: 4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L."

If the goal were to arrive at the value 777 as you suggest, the value could easily be expressed in the puzzle alone, using nothing but letters. Adding the gematria value of verse II:75 to the total of the puzzle is in itself a contrivance, and an attempt to change the boundaries of the experiment in order to arrive at an idealized result.

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

And didn't you say once the solution doesn't have to have any meaning?

No, you said that, and I pointed out that what you described was a mathematical solution.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

What is Gematria other than substitution?

Mathematical, as opposed to simply substituting symbols.

Also, in mathematics 7 doesn't have any more meaning than 11. Yet, in Gematria it has, even has many meanings. Maybe Gematria isn't the best way to solve this puzzle (I agree with Katrice here). I am always looking at this like a total outsider. One insider says the solution is 777, the other one says it is 871 (or so). Both have very valid points. Both are totally arbitrary. Getting away from Gematria might be hugely helpful.

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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

And didn't you say once the solution doesn't have to have any meaning?

No, you said that, and I pointed out that what you described was a mathematical solution.

Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

But - if we believe AC and the book - there can be only one indisputable solution. If this solution is meaningful, all the better. But I am not sure it has to be, it just has to be indisputable.

A solution that is without meaning, and yet is indisputable: you have just described a mathematical solution.

Yeah, here is the quote. I said I am not sure, you said I am right. So you are saying the letters have meaning and no meaning at the same time? I say it has to be indisputable, which I guess prohibits Gematria. In my opinion all solvers I am aware of are very quick in giving a lot of importance to the "The One that comes after" part of the puzzle, as "proven" by their gematric solution, Aleisterion and you yourself are no excemption, iirc nearly everyone does it. Noone so far has found something indisputable (let's not talk about the new "Rites of the Mummy" solution). I also am aware of the fact that the "indisputable" thing is just Crowley's comment, yet it makes very much sense. Or else you are all right, which is so "woke". And lame.

Love=Law

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(@aleisterion)
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Adding the gematria value of verse II:75 to the total of the puzzle is in itself a contrivance, and an attempt to change the boundaries of the experiment in order to arrive at an idealized result.

The idea here is that the line continuing from v.75 to v.76 as it does suggests that these are two parts of an equation, as (we contend) is adumbrated in L 1:56. We're simply adding numbers and words of the uninterrupted line (75-6). A contrivance would be to arrive at a meaningful value by an artificial system, but ours is simply the natural order and value of the letters.

This, however, is the most meaningful value of all, in this context, not because it points to a person, but because it points to the verity of Shaitan-Aiwass in veiling all of this in 1904, then having it all unfold brilliantly as foresaid. There is an abundance of evidence piling up here that Aiwaz was not merely the fantasy of Aleister Crowley, but a genuine being outside the circles of space-time, interacting with many of us today. "Tahuti & the child of the Prophet -- secret, O Prophet!"

777 may also mean more than I'm saying, but I'll not speculate further on that. The fact that it's there, anyway, is perfect.

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Posted by: @aleisterion

We're simply adding numbers and words of the uninterrupted line (75-6).

Okay, let's stay with the facts. 75-76 is one of the most interrupted lines in the whole book. Nearly every new passage starts as flush-left (I don't know if that is the correct english term), only a few exceptions, mostly in verse (where it is logical). So I would say it is one of the most interrupted lines in the whole book. So why do you say it is an uninterrupted line?

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Posted by: @aleisterion

not because it points to a person, but because it points to the verity of Shaitan-Aiwass in veiling all of this in 1904, then having it all unfold brilliantly as foresaid.

"As foresaid" of course means "points to a person", doesn't it?

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Posted by: @aleisterion

777 may also mean more than I'm saying, but I'll not speculate further on that. The fact that it's there, anyway, is perfect.

Ouch, that is not convincing.

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Posted by: @katrice

Why can it not be a number and/or letter substitution cipher?

Out of the 28 numbers and letters in the puzzle, there are 21 different ones; substituting them for other ideas will still yield 21 different ideas, meaning nothing has been gained.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @katrice

Why can it not be a number and/or letter substitution cipher?

Out of the 28 numbers and letters in the puzzle, there are 21 different ones; substituting them for other ideas will still yield 21 different ideas, meaning nothing has been gained.

Yeah, so why not substitute them with other things than ideas or other numbers/letters? It could also be about placements or occurrences of the numbers/letters elsewhere in the book, or about the sound of it (Listen to the...), so there could be gained a lot once getting loose of that Gematria game.

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Posted by: @aleisterion

these are two parts of an equation, as (we contend) is adumbrated in L 1:56.

Really, the only thing that seems meaningful to me in your solution pertaing to I:56 is "All words are sacred and all prophets true." Because you did not "solve the first half of the equation" and left the "second unattacked". Or maybe you did by adding II:75 at all. What do others think?

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

So you are saying the letters have meaning and no meaning at the same time?

They could have no individual meaning as numbers in a math equation that are totaled for an end result, or they could do that and the letters also have a symbolic meaning.

(@ignant666)
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The purpose of Cypher Solving is simple: to "prove" that the Solver is The One Who Comes After, and Chosen, and whatnot. It is an ego-driven exercise. It is left as an exercise for the reader what sort of person would do this, and why they might do so.

Abandoning gematria would defeat this purpose. As would any systematic application of unfudged gematria. Obviously, gematria can be used to prove anything from any given text, especially once we get fudging, and start using different alphabets so as to get different values for letters,  and so on (as AC so often did).

Solving cryptography takes actual skill, training, and discipline. Anyone who is not at least an advanced grad student in computer science or math is at a severe disadvantage. And of course such people, who would actually have the skill and training to solve the cypher, have other sources of self-esteem that do not depend on finding their trouser size in the AL Cypher.

In any case, as i have recently conclusively demonstrated, the answer is 2,242, and I am The One Who Come After, not you.

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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

If it makes you feel better.

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Topic starter

[All underlining in quoted passages is mine, for the sake of emphasis:]

the_real_simon_iff: "While it might be that the existence of only personalized solutions has somewhat of a Thelemic undertone, it still is extremely LAME* seen from the standpoint of a riddle-solver and not exactly proof of a praeternatural source of the book."

With respect to 777 being the solution to the ii76-cipher, I am not interested in the personalized aspect of the solution presented by aleisterion, neither am I interested in it as "... proof of a praeternatural source of the book."

My interest in it, is in addition to the simple method that is used to get to this solution, based on my agreement with the Owner and Editor of LAShTAL's following statement posted 23/01/2020 10:40 am on page 5 in this thread:

"... I have referred numerous times - here and elsewhere, in forum posts and at lectures - to the distinct possibility that he saw the stele and wrote Liber L vel Legis in 1902 and 1903."

And my interest in 777 as the solution to the ii76-cipher, is also based on my following statement posted 14/01/2020 11:06 pm on page 4 in this thread:

"[ Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum (= The Divine sustenance of the magician of the garden of roses)] written by AC in 1902, being a type of "rough draft for", or harbinger or herald for, his The Book of the Law written 1904, appears to support that the II:76 riddle or cipher in the latter book pertains to something of considerable importance. As the solution to the riddle in the aforementioned book AC wrote in 1902, there is described as being of a of supreme initiatic significance."

AC's Ambrosii Magi Hortus Rosarum which he dated to 1902, is a story where a "sacred Book" also called "the Book of the Law" is mentioned, and the main character is tested with a riddle by "the Hierophant who had initiated him of old." How the main characte solves this riddle, makes him able to behold "... Eden, even now in the flesh."

The above pragraph using a symbolic language that he learned i the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn before he left it, to describe that it is possible to do something thais Order held to be impossible, namely to attain to even the highest sephirot on the qabalistic Tree of Life, during your present life on earth.

The Lightning Flash or Flaming Sword of the ten sephiroth descends the tree while the Serpent of Wisdom ascends it. This is used to map out the progress through the various grades in a Hermetic school or magical Order, where the degrees or grades usually equate to the sephirotic Tree.

As already mentioned, AC understood 777 as the tabulation from Kether to Malkuth, and as the numeration of the Paths over which it passes, as the course of the Flaming Sword drawn upon the Qabalistic Tree of Life. And in his second most important book of his Thelema, he has Aiwass, that he claimed dictated the most important book of his Thelema to him, stating:

"... in The Book of the Law did I write the secrets of truth that are like unto a star and a snake and a sword.“"

That statement by Aiwass who supposedly dictated the most important book of AC's Thelema to him, is in line with the words "Every man and every woman is a star.", used near the beginning of  that book, and indicates that everyone of us now living on earth can traverse the whole Qabalistic Tree of Life.

And those "secrets of truth that are like unto a star and a snake and a sword.", had been secret until Aiwass dictated them them to AC in The Book of the Law.

Contrary to the personalized way of reading the words "There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it." in ii76-cipher, I read them in line with what Aiwass explains in the second most important book of AC's Thelema[*]:

“The Cry of the 13th Aethyr, Which is Called ZIM […] And now there cometh an Angel into the garden, but he hath not any of the attributes of the former Angels, for he is like a young man, dressed in white linen robes.

And he saith: No man hath beheld the face of my Father. Therefore he that hath beheld it is called NEMO. And know thou that every man that is called NEMO hath a garden that he tendeth. And every garden that is and flourisheth hath been prepared from the desert by NEMO, watered with the waters that were called death.

And I say unto him: To what end is the garden prepared?

And he saith: First for the beauty and delight thereof; and next because it is written, "And Tetragrammaton Elohim planted a garden eastward in Eden." And lastly, because though every flower bringeth forth a maiden, yet is there one flower that shall bring forth a man-child. And his name shall be called NEMO, when he beholdeth the face of my Father. And he that tendeth the garden seeketh not to single out the flower that shall be NEMO. He doeth naught but tend the garden.  [...]

“... there is one among them, which one I know not, that shall be a man-child, whose name shall be NEMO, when he hath beheld the face of the Father, and become blind.”  [...]

And the young man [...] sayeth to me: Come with me, and behold how NEMO tendeth his garden.  [...]

And I said: Heavy is the labour, but great indeed is the reward.

And the young man answered me: He [a Magus] shall not see the reward, he tendeth the garden [a garden of stars]. And I said: What shall come unto him [= a Magus]?

And he said: This thou canst not know, nor is it revealed by the letters that are the totems of the stars, but only by the stars. [...]

And I ask him: Why does he tell me that?

And he says: I tell thee not. Thou tellest thyself, for thou hast pondered thereupon for many days, and hast not found light. And now that thou art called NEMO, the answer to every riddle that thou hast not found shall spring up in thy mind, unsought. Who can tell upon what day a flower shall bloom?”

[ In an endnote to the last text underlined by me AC states “This certainly happened.” ]

And I said to him: Concerning the Vision and the Voice, I would know if these things be of essence of the Aethyr, or of the essence of the seer.

And he answers: It is of the essence of him that is called NEMO, combined with essence of the Aethyr, for from the 1st Aethyr to the 15th Aethyr, there is no vision and no voice, save for him that is called NEMO. And he that seeketh the vision and the voice therein is led away by dog- faced demons that show no sign of truth, seducing from the Sacred Mysteries, unless his name be NEMO.

And hadst thou not been fitted, thou too hadst been led away, for before the gate of the 15th Aethyr, is this written: He shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.  [...]

And he said moreover: Thou dost well to keep silence, for I perceive how many questions arise in thy mind; yet already thou knowest that the answering, as the asking, must be vain. For NEMO hath all in himself. He hath come where there is no light or knowledge, only when he needeth them no more."

( Source: The Vision and the Voice; The Cry of the 13th Aethyr, Described as "The Garden of Nemo. The Work of the Magister Templi.", in AC's Introduction to The Vision and the Voice - - -  https://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/418/aetyr13.htm#19  )

[*] AC's 1907 dated unpublished galley proofs for his collected works (volume 3 [?]), (galley proofs wich can be found on this site in pdf format), indicates that the former's first dictation from Aiwass, occured in Mexico 1900 with the scribing of the so called The Cry of the 30th Aethyr.

Those galley proofs contains AC's following 1907 statement with respect to what later became the second most important book of his Thelema, The Vision and Voice:

"This document (a fragment–2 " Airs " out of 30) is interesting as being written by the same hand as Liber L. One may assume the constants as the contribution of the author ; the differences as due to inspiration alone."

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

If it makes you feel better.

For someone who has just uttered the Word of the Aeon this sounds quite passive agressive. IT does not make me feel better, IT is about having YOU look better and not like a fool, okay? So. Letters and numbers have to be substituted with something that has meaning. Yes? But it is not about substitution. Yes? Please clear this up, if you can. Your whole Tri-Key solution is about substituting each letter with something. Every letter gets a new value. No problem for me. But that is what we call substitution. Why are you so shy about it? Do you think it makes your "solution" less valuable if it does? Maybe. How do you - as one of the followers that cometh after - feel about there being so many out there?

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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...

Well, well, if you feel you made a point about 777 with all of this, feel free to do so. I see no 777 point to be honest, but I admit it is quite complicated to see what you are trying to say at all. All you say (as far as I can see) is that AC once stated that "777 is the tabulation from Kether to Malkuth" (source would be appreciated) but that fact does not appear anywhere else in your rant. I see exactly nothing related to 777. Please enlighten me.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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I am still baffled for what the 1907 galley proofs have to hold up to. I once brought them up here (everybody could have, they are freely available from the Harry Ransom Center) and everybody finds something in it for their likes. Please remember: they were "unpublished" proofs, maybe unpublished just for the reason you all think they actually "prove". All they "prove" is that Liber L was there then and maybe what AC thought about it then, nothing more. It might be interesting that it says exactly the same as the "cover page", but nothing more. Anyone who bases any importance should consider that there might be a reason why it was never published.

Love=Law

Lutz

(@threefold31)
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Dwtw

26 does not have an English letter associated with it, so it could represent silence, or the ampersand in the text, or...?

27 trigrams, 26 letters; one of them has to be a non-letter.

@katrice

I agree with HPK that if gematria is not involved, then the Cipher would necessarily be a substitution cipher, and with only 28 characters, it's not long enough to be subject to regular cryptanalysis.

@the_real_simon_iff

I agree that gematria is a type of substitution, but barring that, substitution would require a means of determining what letter or number is substituted with what other letter or number. It could be skip distances of the regular alphabet, or a Vigenere cipher of some sort, or whatever scheme was used, and those create their own issues.

Litlluw

RLG

(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

One insider says the solution is 777, the other one says it is 871 (or so). Both have very valid points. Both are totally arbitrary. Getting away from Gematria might be hugely helpful.

Dwtw

Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing that 871 is *the* solution to the Cipher; I only meant to show that this is what can happen (in a different system) when you move the goal posts.

Including verse 75 may or may not be legitimate, but the more sensible expansion would be the entirety of verse 76 instead. This often gets overlooked, but consider that if we're supposed to 'listen to the numbers & the words', and the Cipher doesn't actually have any words in it, only numbers and letters, then the 'words' here indicated may be the remainder of verse 76...

"What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever. There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it. But remember, o chosen one, to be me; to follow the love of Nu in the star-lit heaven; to look forth upon men, to tell them this glad word."    = 2268 = 4 * 567 ( cf. verse I:46)

Adding this to the sum of 351 for the glyphs of the Cipher gives the grand total for verse 76:

351 + 2268 = 2619

2619 = 27 x 97

2619 = the number of the trigrams times the name of the god of the Next Aeon.

Litlluw

RLG

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @threefold31

I wasn't proposing that 871 is *the* solution to the Cipher; I only meant to show that this is what can happen (in a different system) when you move the goal posts.

871 was just the first number that came to mind, it was not about you.

(@kidneyhawk)
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Might I summarize the situation?

Liber AL throws at its reader a bunch of gobbledygook, a seemingly random string of numbers and letters, followed by a challenge. No one except the ONE WHO WILL COME AFTER can crack the code. Not AC, not anyone-except one who will do far more than provide “a” solution. They will provide a solution which is simple, elegant, undeniable and the meaning of the puzzle will be revealed. It will be a testament to the Preternatural Power of the One who dictated it to the Prophet. It will not only tap the ONE WHO WILL COME AFTER, it will demonstrate all that Power, Knowledge and Authority which none of us will be able to deny. I would imagine something akin to solving a basic arithmetic problem or fitting the winning word into a crossword puzzle. We lack the Rosetta Stone for this task but when found, it will be jaw-droppingly “Click, Click, BOOM.” There it was. So simple and none of us saw it except the ONE TO WHOM IT WAS REVEALED.

And when the “Answer” is beheld? I would be satisfied with such “sublime simplicity” revealing something akin to the Year, Day and Hour when Aleister Crowley died. THAT would be some impressive foreknowledge...or an impressive indication of “How The Gods Kill.”

For lack of driving THAT sort of nail into the wood, all patterns discerned in the text seem (to me) arbitrary and, worse, of little to no value in demonstrating Power and Authority beyond the human mind-or offering anything new or novel for application in the field of Magick.

I think Nietzsche might observe the case to date as being “Human...All Too Human.”

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

For someone who has just uttered the Word of the Aeon this sounds quite passive agressive.

You are confusing me with R.L.G.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

IT is about having YOU look better and not like a fool, okay?

I had no idea my reputation was on the line--how can I ever thank you?

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Every letter gets a new value. No problem for me. But that is what we call substitution.

I stated, "Mathematical as opposed to substitution," thus distinguishing between the two.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Do you think it makes your "solution" less valuable if it does?

My solution utilizes gematria and substitution, so there is no need to be hesitant about either.

(@shiva)
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Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Letters and numbers have to be substituted with something that has meaning. Yes?

If you say so - and it makes you feel or look better - Yes.

Here it is: If you have your Borg convert the Egyptian Silhouettes (A True-Type Font) into any other (English or Native) Font, the original message from AL/L/220 will reappear. Then we will all be back where we started from. Which is the purpose of The Great Work ... but maybe after another matter.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

All you say (as far as I can see) is that AC once stated that "777 is the tabulation from Kether to Malkuth" (source would be appreciated) but that fact does not appear anywhere else in your rant. I see exactly nothing related to 777.

You must dig deeper. Do more math. Find more quotes. This is The Great Work.

If everybody is taling about 777, it must be meaningful (to them). Thus it becomes distributed. This is the fundament-AL law underlying all social media.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Anyone who bases any importance should consider that there might be a reason why it was never published.

see: Portions of RTC's works.

(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I would imagine something akin to solving a basic arithmetic problem or fitting the winning word into a crossword puzzle.

Dwtw

The solution is just that simple.

The sum of the letters multiplied by the sum of the numbers multiplied by the value of the 24th letter equals precisely the value of the entire Book of the Law.

208 * 143 * 9 = 267,696 = Liber CCXX in total.

The Cipher is not about identifying the person who will solve it. It is about identifying the gematria that will solve the Book itself. This is derived from the Prophet's own letter assignments to the trigrams.

Litlluw

RLG

(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @threefold31

The sum of the letters multiplied by the sum of the numbers multiplied by the value of the 24th letter equals precisely the value of the entire Book of the Law.

Can you explain the reason for this fudge factor? Why on earth would we do this?

Why don't we use the value of some other letter? I mean, i get that you won't get the result you want if you don't do this, but that is hardly a reasonable justification for a methodology. What you are doing is sometimes known as "Texas sharpshooting".

Also, is the ninth letter's value included in "the sum of the letters", as well as being a multiplier? Seems like yes; why?

(@aleisterion)
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I'd like to just add here (as this thread relates to the magical heir of Aleister Crowley) that this prophetic riddle is merely one of a few of the mysteries left to us by Crowley surrounding this enigmatic figure.

Another, again from L 1:56, foreshadows that he would be "of no expected house" (or no expected lineage).

Yet another -- very interesting -- item relating to this person, comes from Bartzabel, evoked by Crowley in 1907, giving this date:

11-11-2040.

"The Aeon shall be reestablished when the slain child is placed on the Altar of Ra Hoor Khuit."

Also:

"He shall be the child of Luna and Saturn. He shall bear on his forehead sevenfold star of midnight. He shall be slain as was spoken in that place which was known only to thee [Crowley] and one other."

And:

"He shall be sought near a stream of running water running between two mountains. The child is yet [1907] unborn. He shall be the child of those who sought love in the valley of the stars, sojourned in a cave, and been on the summit of Abiegnus."

We have only 18 years to see what Bartzabel meant about 2040. 🙄

(@katrice)
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Posted by: @threefold31

@katrice

I agree with HPK that if gematria is not involved, then the Cipher would necessarily be a substitution cipher, and with only 28 characters, it's not long enough to be subject to regular cryptanalysis.

My substitution cipher comment was just added speculation, my main point is that it seems most everyone simply assumes gematria with no solid reason to assume such.  Honestly, if we accept a praeterhuman intelligence origin, or even a simply transrational origin, it need not be subject to a conventional cryptanalysis method, though I do like to believe it has some form of internal pattern.

(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @threefold31

The sum of the letters multiplied by the sum of the numbers multiplied by the value of the 24th letter equals precisely the value of the entire Book of the Law.

Can you explain the reason for this fudge factor? Why on earth would we do this?

Dwtw

The number 24 being so prominent in the Cipher; it occurs at least five times:

4*6 = 24; 3*8 = 24, 2*4*3 = 24, 24 = 24, 89 is the 24th prime number.

So if 89 is the 24th prime in series, then perhaps the 24th letter in the series is also special.

But if you have a problem with it, it's simple enough to just multiply by 9, which is the number of integers in the Cipher. Or if that seems too much to bother, than simply multiply the numbers and letters and have one-ninth of the total of the book. Either way, it's the only solution whose total is related to the grand total of the entire Book. It also provides the name of the book and its three deities:

143 = The Book of the Law

208 = Nuit + Hadit + Ra-Hoor-Khuit

Litlluw

RLG

(@threefold31)
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A lot of this is covered in 'Secret of the Cipher Naughts', my compilation of numerous solutions given over the decades. The link is on page one of this thread. It's a bit outdated by now, as a few newer solutions have been proposed, but it's a good baseline for discussion. Scanning through it, there are a few solutions that do not involve gematria. And of the 28 solutions listed, only 3 (Michael Aquino, Aleisterion, and Herupakraaath) involved identifying the Expounder, so that seems to be a small minority of attempts.

Litlluw

RLG

(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @threefold31

9, which is the number of integers in the Cipher

There are 11 digits, and 6 different integers (2,3,4,6,8,9) in the Cypher by my count.

Even if you had the number correct, this, like all your procedures, seems arbitrary, and designed to hit a certain target.

And, if 24 is so important, why don't we multiply by 24?

Another issue i had missed: how can we take the value of the 24th letter, when there are only 19 letters in the Cypher?

(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @threefold31

9, which is the number of integers in the Cipher

Another issue i had missed: how can we take the value of the 24th letter, when there are only 19 letters in the Cypher?

Dwtw

My bad, should have said 24th glyph, not letter.

When I say 9 integers, I'm talking about 4-6-3-8-2-4-3-24-89, not the individual digits.

And I completely disagree with you - not ALL of my procedures are arbitrary. There is nothing arbitrary about taking the sum of the letters and multiplying them by the sum of the numbers.

Litlluw

RLG

(@ignant666)
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I can even count to eight integers if we assume that 24 and 89 are meant, not a string of 2489, because then we have 2,3,4,6,8,24,89.

But i definitely cannot find nine.

Aha! i have figured out your count: it is, in order of appearance 4,6,3,8,2,4,3,24,89. You are double-counting integers that appear twice- why?

But if we are to regard the "stops" as significant here (despite being told to ignore them), why isn't your count five (4638,24,3,24,89)? Again, you make arbitrary decisions to get the result you need.

(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @threefold31

There is nothing arbitrary about taking the sum of the letters and multiplying them by the sum of the numbers.

Well, yes of course there is everything arbitrary about it, unless there is some reason for doing this. Isn't gematria normally just about addition?

But, of course, you have not accurately described your method-  you have left out the necessary fudge factor, perhaps to make your methods sound less obviously result-driven:

Take the sum of the letters [derived from an idiosyncratic method used by no one else ever], multiply by the sum of the numbers [defining those numbers in arbitrary ways that ignore the AL text], THEN MULTIPLY BY NINE.

(@katrice)
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Posted by: @threefold31

Scanning through it, there are a few solutions that do not involve gematria. And of the 28 solutions listed, only 3 (Michael Aquino, Aleisterion, and Herupakraaath) involved identifying the Expounder, so that seems to be a small minority of attempts.

I'm not certain how that invalidates the idea that gematria may not be the correct method.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

For someone who has just uttered the Word of the Aeon this sounds quite passive agressive.

You are confusing me with R.L.G.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

IT is about having YOU look better and not like a fool, okay?

I had no idea my reputation was on the line--how can I ever thank you?

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Every letter gets a new value. No problem for me. But that is what we call substitution.

I stated, "Mathematical as opposed to substitution," thus distinguishing between the two.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

Do you think it makes your "solution" less valuable if it does?

My solution utilizes gematria and substitution, so there is no need to be hesitant about either.

Yes, I am sorry. I tend to confuse you both, I don't know why. Sorry also for the uncourtly tone of my last post. I was furious about a totally unrelated topic and was switching back and forth with commenting.

Love=Law

Lutz

(@ignant666)
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I have another Cypher Solution: i was trying to figure out why our Comrade is multiplying, and also looking at the Cypher in the AL ms., and it seems to me that we do need to multiply.

Because that purported "X" is really an "x", a multiplication sign.

Meaning we must add up the string of numbers and letters before the mathematical operator (after converting the letters to numbers using the now-famous "IA" method), and then multiply that number by the total value of the numbers and letters after the "x".

So the solution to the II:76 Cypher is actually:

999* x 404 **= 403,596***

_________________________________

* The number of the One Who Comes After The One Who Comes After "The One Who Comes After".

** HTTP status code for "Not Found", signifying occult, or hidden, wisdom. Also, the original phone area code for the US state of Georgia (since supplemented by additional area codes). "Georgia" means "farmer", compare the 8=3 work: to "cultivate a garden".

*** 666 multiplied by 606 is 403,596.

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @katrice

my main point is that it seems most everyone simply assumes gematria with no solid reason to assume such.

The puzzle consists of the same elements that comprise a gematria system--numbers & letters, so of course gematria has to be considered a likely tool for producing a solution. There is no reason however to limit a solution to gematria: a multi-dimensional solution would be quite impressive.

katrice liked
(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @katrice
Posted by: @threefold31

Scanning through it, there are a few solutions that do not involve gematria. And of the 28 solutions listed, only 3 (Michael Aquino, Aleisterion, and Herupakraaath) involved identifying the Expounder, so that seems to be a small minority of attempts.

I'm not certain how that invalidates the idea that gematria may not be the correct method.

Dwtw

I'm not trying to invalidate it. I'm merely pointing out that there are some solutions that don't employ gematria. your suggestion has been tried by at least a few people.

Litlluw

RLG

(@katrice)
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Posted by: @herupakraath
Posted by: @katrice

my main point is that it seems most everyone simply assumes gematria with no solid reason to assume such.

The puzzle consists of the same elements that comprise a gematria system--numbers & letters, so of course gematria has to be considered a likely tool for producing a solution. There is no reason however to limit a solution to gematria: a multi-dimensional solution would be quite impressive.

I never said that it couldn't be considered, I just pointed out that so many people seem to think that it HAS to be gematria, while ignoring the idea that numbers and letters are used for other codes and ciphers as well.  If someone could point to anything in AL that necessitates gematria as the method, I'd like to see it because I never have in any of my readings.  To me, that Crowley himself made use of gematria simply shows that he spent his formative years in magick in the Golden Dawn studying qabala

I'm merely pointing out that there are some solutions that don't employ gematria. your suggestion has been tried by at least a few people.

And hundreds of others have tried solving it with gematria, to just as much success.

(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @threefold31

There is nothing arbitrary about taking the sum of the letters and multiplying them by the sum of the numbers.

Well, yes of course there is everything arbitrary about it, unless there is some reason for doing this. Isn't gematria normally just about addition?

But, of course, you have not accurately described your method-  you have left out the necessary fudge factor, perhaps to make your methods sound less obviously result-driven:

Take the sum of the letters [derived from an idiosyncratic method used by no one else ever], multiply by the sum of the numbers [defining those numbers in arbitrary ways that ignore the AL text], THEN MULTIPLY BY NINE.

Dwtw

There is nothing arbitrary about recognizing that there are nine numbers in the Cipher. They are all integers. The last two (24 & 89) consist of two digits each, as indicated by the parenthetical marks around them in the holograph.

Gematria is about far more than addition. You may enjoy the wikipedia article that lists a couple dozen different methods of deriving number values from letters:

You are totally misrepresenting my method when you say it is idiosyncratic to add up the values of the letters to get their sum. That's practically the definition of gematria. Also, the sum of the numbers is simply that, there is nothing unusual about adding up the nine cipher numbers to get 143. If you are disputing the obvious fact that 4,6,3,8,2,4,3,24,89 appear in the cipher, then I don't know what text you're referring to. They are not 'defined by ignoring the text', they are identified by reading the text.

Multiplying by the sum of the numbers is also not idiosyncratic; it is in fact following the procedure of "Divide, add, multiply and understand", which happens to come from verse 24. The cipher is Divided into numbers and letters, then these groups are Added, then they are Multiplied.

As I said, if you have such a problem with multiplying all of that by 9, then just ignore it. You still have a total (143 * 208) that is a factor of the whole text, with equivalents for the title of the Book and its three deities.

Litlluw

RLG

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