Various II:76 Ciphe...

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[Closed] Various II:76 Cipher solutions...

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(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @threefold31

The Cipher is not about identifying the person who will solve it. It is about identifying the gematria that will solve the Book itself.

Why can't it be both, and wouldn't that be even better, knowing the designer of the puzzle had to be able to foresee the future in order to know who would solve it? Is it not a given the designer of the puzzle knew the identity of the person that would solve the puzzle?

Posted by: @threefold31

The solution is just that simple.

The sum of the letters multiplied by the sum of the numbers multiplied by the value of the 24th letter equals precisely the value of the entire Book of the Law.

208 * 143 * 9 = 267,696 = Liber CCXX in total.

Your solution is analogous to Houdini making an elephant disappear in front of a live audience. It's the scale of the presentation that impresses, not the trick itself, which is actually quite simple.

No matter how one chooses to generate a value using the puzzle, or anything else, a number is a number. To claim there is something extraordinary about the same value appearing twice in the Book of the Law in two different places, is comparable to thinking that two sentences sharing the same value proves something, or even two words for that matter. Your solution, ironically, is actually too simple.

(@ignant666)
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Posts: 4388

Posted by: @threefold31

Gematria is about far more than addition. You may enjoy the wikipedia article that lists a couple dozen different methods of deriving number values from letters:

Thank you so much for the pointer to that introductory wikipedia article, which outlines 25 methods of calculating word/text string values, all of which are based on adding together individual letter values.

Four of the 25 do use multiplication to calculate individual letter values. However, none of the 25 methods of Hebrew gematria mentioned involve multiplying any letter value by any other letter value to calculate word/text string values.

Posted by: @threefold31

You are totally misrepresenting my method when you say it is idiosyncratic to add up the values of the letters to get their sum.

If i had said that, you would certainly be right. Re-read. The values you are assigning are idiosyncratic, and in fact unique to you.

Posted by: @threefold31

[A]dd[ing] up the values of the letters to get their sum [is] practically the definition of gematria.

Um, yes, it is. Multiplying values is unusual. You do realize this contradicts the point i quote above, yes?

Posted by: @threefold31

the obvious fact that 4,6,3,8,2,4,3,24,89 appear in the cipher

Or perhaps 4638, 24, 3, 24, 89. Or perhaps 4,6,3,8, 24, 3 [again], 24 [again], 89. There simply is no way to be sure what the intention is.

Posted by: @threefold31

The cipher is Divided into numbers and letters, then these groups are Added, then they are Multiplied.

You are joking, right? So the command to "divide" certainly means nothing at all to do with the arithmetic operation of division, whereas we can be certain that "multiply" certainly can only refer to an arithmetic operation?

Posted by: @threefold31

which happens to come from verse 24

Well, verse 25,  actually, if we want to be picky. Of chapter I, spoken by Nuit, who is not the speaker who poses the Cypher in chapter II.

There can't be any further purpose served in continuing to discuss your methods. Thanx for taking the time to explain them, and responding to my many queries.

(@threefold31)
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Your solution is analogous to Houdini making an elephant disappear in front of a live audience. It's the scale of the presentation that impresses, not the trick itself, which is actually quite simple.

No matter how one chooses to generate a value using the puzzle, or anything else, a number is a number. To claim there is something extraordinary about the same value appearing twice in the Book of the Law in two different places, is comparable to thinking that two sentences sharing the same value proves something, or even two words for that matter. Your solution, ironically, is actually too simple.

Dwtw

I agree that a mere identity is not extraordinary, but it is a fact that Trigrammaton is the only solution to the Cipher that can generate the total value of the Book using the elements given in the Cipher. I have always argued that if we've been instructed to not change even a letter of the Book, then the total value of all those letters must be important, since Crowley was told to obtain those values. So the whole thing is encoded, not just this little stretch of verse 2:76.

Litlluw

RLG

(@threefold31)
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Posts: 625

Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @threefold31

Gematria is about far more than addition. You may enjoy the wikipedia article that lists a couple dozen different methods of deriving number values from letters:

Thank you so much for the pointer to that introductory wikipedia article, which outlines 25 methods of calculating word/text string values, all of which are based on adding together individual letter values.

Four of the 25 do use multiplication to calculate individual letter values. However, none of the 25 methods of Hebrew gematria mentioned involve multiplying any letter value by any other letter value to calculate word/text string values.

Dwtw

You're right, none of the methods involve multiplying letters by each other, but some of the methods involve using the squares of numbers, so that requires multiplying. My point was that there are many ways of deriving values beyond simply adding up the letters.

Posted by: @threefold31

You are totally misrepresenting my method when you say it is idiosyncratic to add up the values of the letters to get their sum.

If i had said that, you would certainly be right. Re-read. The values you are assigning are idiosyncratic, and in fact unique to you.

I see I misunderstood you. The letter values were not invented by me, they come from Crowley's assignment of letters to the trigrams.

Posted by: @threefold31

[A]dd[ing] up the values of the letters to get their sum [is] practically the definition of gematria.

Um, yes, it is. Multiplying values is unusual. You do realize this contradicts the point i quote above, yes?

Multiplying two sums is not the most usual method, but the qabalists innovated quite a bit, as evidenced by their numerous different approaches.

Posted by: @threefold31

the obvious fact that 4,6,3,8,2,4,3,24,89 appear in the cipher

Or perhaps 4638, 24, 3, 24, 89. Or perhaps 4,6,3,8, 24, 3 [again], 24 [again], 89. There simply is no way to be sure what the intention is.

I suppose that's the point, is to find out what the intention was. Maybe 4638 is a four-digit number and not four single numbers. It's worth trying them both. And your conclusion that there is no way to be sure of the intention also holds true for multiplication. There's just no way to know if the numbers should be multiplied or not, until you try. Success is your proof.

Posted by: @threefold31

The cipher is Divided into numbers and letters, then these groups are Added, then they are Multiplied.

You are joking, right? So the command to "divide" certainly means nothing at all to do with the arithmetic operation of division, whereas we can be certain that "multiply" certainly can only refer to an arithmetic operation?

To quote you again, "there is simply no way to be sure what the intention is", so you try things and see what works. 'Divide' could refer to taking one number and dividing it by another. It could also refer to dividing a set of glyphs into two groups. The function is the same, breaking up something larger into something smaller.

Posted by: @threefold31

which happens to come from verse 24

Well, verse 25,  actually, if we want to be picky. Of chapter I, spoken by Nuit, who is not the speaker who poses the Cypher in chapter II.

My bad, that was a typo, it is of course verse 25. And no, Nuit is not the speaker in chapter 2, but I see the whole Book as one integrated discourse. Any part of it might apply to any other, thus the injunction not to change any of the letters.

There can't be any further purpose served in continuing to discuss your methods. Thanx for taking the time to explain them, and responding to my many queries.

Yes, I think we've established that my methods make sense to me, but not to you.  I appreciate you questioning them.

I will stand by my claim that simply adding numbers and adding letters and then multiplying the sums is not an unreasonable approach to take to the Cipher.  Whether they're the right numbers and letters is, I suppose, the crux of the problem...

Litlluw

RLG

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
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Posts: 7760

Posted by: @ignant666

Well, yes of course there is everything arbitrary about it, unless there is some reason for doing this.

Oh, here you go ... being practical again.

Posted by: @ignant666

I have another Cypher Solution

There is no need to print up another Certificate - just add a platinum star, sticking it in any blank area of the original Cert.

katrice reacted
(@elitemachinery)
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Posted by: @ignant666

Abandoning gematria would defeat this purpose. As would any systematic application of unfudged gematria. Obviously, gematria can be used to prove anything from any given text, especially once we get fudging, and start using different alphabets so as to get different values for letters,  and so on (as AC so often did).

Nice to see the word "fudge" re-entering the vernacular. It brings back funny memories as my cousin over used the word often...AC was defo a fudger, and a fudgy kind of guy...so I think it's appropriate.

Posted by: @ignant666

In any case, as i have recently conclusively demonstrated, the answer is 2,242, and I am The One Who Come After, not you.

Nailed it. Ironically this is the code for prison rape. Very fudgy indeed. You have my full endorsement with this explanation. Defend your title well. The rest of us wankers and wannabees shall be called "the ones that come after the one who comes after thee..."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2242

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Liber AL throws at its reader a bunch of gobbledygook, a seemingly random string of numbers and letters, followed by a challenge. No one except the ONE WHO WILL COME AFTER can crack the code. Not AC, not anyone-except one who will do far more than provide “a” solution. They will provide a solution which is simple, elegant, undeniable and the meaning of the puzzle will be revealed. It will be a testament to the Preternatural Power of the One who dictated it to the Prophet.

You have described the process perfectly, as will be shown.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

And when the “Answer” is beheld? I would be satisfied with such “sublime simplicity” revealing something akin to the Year, Day and Hour when Aleister Crowley died. THAT would be some impressive foreknowledge

Wouldn't the name of the puzzle solver be just as predictive and impressive?

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

I would imagine something akin to solving a basic arithmetic problem

An accurate imagining. Since you have all but figured it out, what kind of mathematical demonstration would impress you, and serve as evidence of Aiwass?

(@ignant666)
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Wouldn't the name of the puzzle solver be just as predictive and impressive?

If found by some method that makes any sense at all, sure, that might be impressive, if rather trivial.

But since the methods employed are invariably contrived, convoluted, illogical, and utterly loopy, no one at all is impressed with these confirmation-bias driven "solutions".

(@shiva)
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Posts: 7760

Posted by: @elitemachinery

The rest of us wankers and wannabees shall be called "the ones that come after the one who comes after thee..."

And they shall be called The Apostles who Came After The First Follower. Some hard-hearted Osirians will call them "The Losers." Thus, know that you have been abandoned.

Posted by: @ignant666

But since the methods employed are invariably contrived, convoluted, illogical, and utterly loopy, no one at all is impressed with these confirmation-bias driven "solutions".

Well, that's it, then. The thread can be closed, locked, or ignored - and we can all go back to church.

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @ignant666

But since the methods employed are invariably contrived

I utilize basic gematria equations produced with a system that is impervious to your criticisms.

Posted by: @ignant666

no one at all is impressed with these confirmation-bias driven "solutions".

In speaking for everyone, I feel obligated to point out to you, that you do not.

(@ignant666)
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Posts: 4388

@herupakraath - OK, fair enough, i am certain that you are impressed with yourself, so i retract, and amend, the latter half of my statement:

No one at all (besides the solver himself) is impressed with these confirmation-bias driven "solutions".

Would you care to briefly describe your methods? If it takes more than one paragraph/100 words, it is almost by definition contrived, and convoluted. Perhaps it is not Illogical and utterly loopy- let's see.

Go for yours, son.

(@shiva)
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Posted by: @ahihchiva567

Kold seems crippling

Lame meander through corridors

Aromas thick with age

Mark of the day

KLAM = 20+30+1+40 = 91 = 10 = The ONE who's next in line.

Posted by: @herupakraath

I utilize basic gematria equations produced with a system that is impervious to your criticisms.

Systema Eterna - I like it. It seems so ... pre-Babel-On-Tower in its expression.

Posted by: @ignant666

No one at all (besides the solver himself) is impressed with these confirmation-bias driven "solutions".

Caution in concept - There are poeople-posters who post here who stand in mental and moral support of some other person-poster's proposed solution.

Get it? Two or more people-posters, or their robots, agree that the solution has been solved and resolved. Personally, knowing this factoid, I automatically translate your phrase into "(besides a few heretics and/or meaningfully-coincidental-agreements with solvers)".

Whew! This recommended CYA recommendation is authorized by me, who knows there's always an exception to any regulation and that we live in a world of guerrilla warfare wherein hidden alliances await the unwary (See: Jung; paranoia).

Posted by: @ignant666

Go for yours, son.

Oh, Father that is younger than my years. Maybe I should drag mine out? How long will this show-and-tell window of time be open?

(@elitemachinery)
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Posted by: @shiva

And they shall be called The Apostles who Came After The First Follower. Some hard-hearted Osirians will call them "The Losers." Thus, know that you have been abandoned.

An appropriate label but wannabees and wankers means the same thing.

Posted by: @shiva

Well, that's it, then. The thread can be closed, locked, or ignored - and we can all go back to church.

Soon hopefully, but not until we all vote and hand out prizes.

(@shiva)
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Posts: 7760

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

I was at work today (manual labor, common folk shit)

The Salt of the Earth.  Yeah, I am faced with this physical plane lifting crap every day plus intricate mental duels with the Borg and the Marketplace. Before or after, carry wood chop water, forever. Amoun.

Posted by: @ahihchiva567

an old song

But what is the "old song?" You must cite your sources if you expect to earn your doctoral degree.

As for the message itself, I am overwhelmed. Maybe the Doktor-Doktor can punch some holes in it.

(@shiva)
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Posts: 7760

Posted by: @elitemachinery

... but not until we all vote and hand out prizes.

Sorry, I missed your post in the excitement of physical labor exhaustion.

Um, this is a vertical gathering place. We used to vote on things, when posters could introduce concepts and everyone/anyone could check a box. But that disappeared with the Old Aeon. This is in Frater O.M.'s comment, Democracy is a fatal folly.

All certificates and prizes are now self-awarded. Each postulant sinks or swims in his/her own glory or mumbles away into the dark closet of doom. (This is called Going Back into the Closet.

But have no fears, I have seen the future, and although it doesn't work, this thread will continue. Anybody who has ever followed anyone down a path, or mentally through a mathematical maze, is qualified to keep trying.  "Trying" to get the solution, or "trying" to convince others of a solution extant.

This matter will not be done 'til the fat lady sins. [not a sic]

(@elitemachinery)
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Posted by: @shiva

But have no fears, I have seen the future, and although it doesn't work, this thread will continue. Anybody who has ever followed anyone down a path, or mentally through a mathematical maze, is qualified to keep trying.  "Trying" to get the solution, or "trying" to convince others of a solution extant.

Aiwass said "What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever. There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it"

Expound means to extract or explain. He did say "there will cometh one" not "there will cometh hundreds"...it seems the problem lay in the assumption that the one person who shall "expound" on this sequence of numbers and letters will be some sort of "chosen one"....this assumption seems to really bring the closet Crowley's out of the woodwork...i guess it's good for flushing out those hidden away in the dark corners...kinda like when the Los Angeles Police Dept sent out cards to all wanted felons saying that they had won a prize...and then when they showed up to collect they were promptly arrested....hahaha...

Let's end this now with a vote... i hereby withdraw my earlier submissions and vote for Ignant....he can handle the scrutiny and won't let the "choson one" stuff go to his head..this is all about prison rape obviously...once we finish rounding up the suspects....and seeing that everyone else is voting for themselves...Ignant now has more votes than anyone else!

(@shiva)
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

Expound means to extract or explain. He did say "there will cometh one" not "there will cometh hundreds"

Hundreds will try, but Only One (O.'.O.'.) will be Chosen. Everyone is free to try, if it be their Will, and those who Try but are not Willed will suffer the appointed indignities (Laughter of the folly-folk; Flat wines; Normal drugs; No women or spices; dark alleyways; paranoia; mental collapse; the end).

Posted by: @elitemachinery

Let's end this now with a vote...

We cannot End it 'til the Second Beast arises. I will therefore hold a steady course and vote for myself. Since this is not a popularity contest, or a chance to (try to) dagger someone in the butt, I will not get any further votes - but really and probably so, it will be because I have neither submitted my submission nor paid my dues nor self-issued my certificate (3 strikes in real-time now).

(@elitemachinery)
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Posted by: @shiva

Hundreds will try, but Only One (O.'.O.'.) will be Chosen.

These dangerous assumptions may come from Crowley but clearly originate from biblical teachings and those either brainwashed by these teachings or rebelling against them. I haven't decided whether this covid nightmare and push for "mark of the beast" stuff is being pushed by bible thumpers so that their stupid prophecies finally can get fulfilled (a little late perhaps) or is it being pushed by truly evil satanic ungodly types? I'm leaning toward these two factions revealing themselves to be one and the same eventually.

Posted by: @shiva

We cannot End it 'til the Second Beast arises.

Oh brother, what a shame. So you subscribe to this same nonsense and are clearly encouraging all this "chosen one" misinformation? A lot of assumptions are being made by people reading "between the lines" and imagining some sort of prize at the end of the rainbow, if they can just solve this riddle? Crowley in his attempt to rebel and create something new has simply fallen into the biblical trap.

We'd all be better off getting rid of both books. The Bible and Liber Al. Neither has done the world any benefit. At least the bible had a few positive statements. Liber Al not so much. Mostly it just seems like a personal and somewhat evil message to Crowley who was clearly out of his mind on drugs and magick most of the time. We're fucked as long as people in this world are trying to make meaning out of old books, written by crazy people or zealots, and continue this madness into new centuries.

(@michael-staley)
The Funambulatory Way - it's All in the Egg
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Posts: 4378

Posted by: @elitemachinery

So you subscribe to this same nonsense and are clearly encouraging all this "chosen one" misinformation?

To judge from his posts over the years, I don't think he does. I think he's being ironic.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

We'd all be better off getting rid of both books. The Bible and Liber Al. Neither has done the world any benefit. At least the bible had a few positive statements. Liber Al not so much.

I think there's a great deal of positive material in Liber AL. There's also some material there that I don't like. There are some parts of the Old Testament in the Bible that I like, too.

Joined: 53 years ago
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I am with your elite - but here is the thing - for the most part - meaning like almost 100 percent - Liber AL does not exist in the consciousness of humanity - the Bible does - to varying degrees of intelligence.

(@herupakraath)
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Posted by: @ignant666

OK, fair enough, i am certain that you are impressed with yourself, so i retract, and amend, the latter half of my statement:

No one at all (besides the solver himself) is impressed with these confirmation-bias driven "solutions".

Ironically, your first statement is an ad hominem attack, which is no less a logical fallacy than confirmation bias, which makes you the kettle calling the pot black.

Posted by: @ignant666

Would you care to briefly describe your methods? If it takes more than one paragraph/100 words, it is almost by definition contrived, and convoluted.

I apply standard gematria technique to the letters in the II:76 puzzle, and convert them into numbers, producing a mathematical solution to the puzzle. Please note that I answered your questions using less words than you did to ask them.

(@tiger)
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@michael-staley
“ There are some parts of the Old Testament in the Bible that I like, too. “

Do you read them in the sense of like the Buddha pointing the way out or the Serpent and The Beast Unsealing the Seals to Liberation ?
Or in the traditional terrestrial sense of getting forgiveness and finding a way back in ?

(@michael-staley)
The Funambulatory Way - it's All in the Egg
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Posts: 4378

Posted by: @tiger

Do you read them in the sense of like the Buddha pointing the way out or the Serpent and The Beast Unsealing the Seals to Liberation ?
Or in the traditional terrestrial sense of getting forgiveness and finding a way back in ?

"Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

I referrred to the Old Testament: not too much in the way of "getting forgiveness" or "finding a way back in" as I recall, though I haven't studied it comprehensively. I like the language in some of the books collected there: Revelation, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, some of the Psalms. This is in the King James version; much of the poetry is lost in the New English recensions.

(@michael-staley)
The Funambulatory Way - it's All in the Egg
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Posts: 4378

Posted by: @jg

What elite? There's none here on LAShTAL, so far as I am aware.

(@elitemachinery)
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Posted by: @michael-staley

To judge from his posts over the years, I don't think he does. I think he's being ironic.

Thanks for your straight forward response.

I think this "chosen one" and "second beast" stuff comes mostly from Christian ideology thoroughly brainwashing our collective consciousness. Crowley/Aiwass uses the word chosen nine times in BoTL. Mostly to flatter himself. Are we assuming too much (reading between the lines?) to think that this puzzle solver is also some sort of "second beast" or "chosen one" and if so, would you (any of us?) wish this sad fate any human being during his lifetime?

(@aleisterion)
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Posted by: @elitemachinery

Are we assuming too much (reading between the lines?) to think that this puzzle solver is also some sort of "second beast" or "chosen one" and if so, would you (any of us?) wish this sad fate any human being during his lifetime?

Aiwaz isn't asking us: he's telling us. There isn't going to be a single Beast, but a series of them. Not just one Aeonic Prophet but many.

The prophets and oracles will keep coming, and their inspiration will bring wave after wave of Aeonic Genius, not to cancel out or replace the current manifestation thereof, but to supplement it.

Aleister Crowley wasn't the origin of Thelema and his won't be the final word on it. We don't need authority figures in the Thelemic community, but feverishly inspired, insightful and exciting ideas are the life-blood of any movement.

To turn away from brilliant genius, from wherever it comes or whatever form it takes, is to build a wall against the source of the original epiphany.

Then again, it's all a matter of perspective. If one doesn't subscribe to the reality of superior paranormal intelligences such as Aiwaz, then one might think otherwise. In my own experience, paramundane intelligence is real.

Let me be clear: I do believe that Aleister Crowley is dead and not reincarnated; and I certainly don't want to be him, personally I'm not much like him. It's good to admire and promote his genius, however: for it isn't all simply the genius of a mere man, but (I insist) of an intelligence much greater.

Ultimately, of course, this "superior paranormal intelligence" isn't so preterhuman after all. The infinite, the absolute, both link to us in the Genius of the Aeon. Prophets and oracles reflect and transmit such Genius; it's just that we don't need these prophets to tell us what to do. The only injunction they need give is to do what thou wilt.

To conflate oracles and authority figures is a mistake: we can have one without the other.

katrice reacted
(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
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Posted by: @herupakraath

Well, no, actually, it isn't. It may well be mockery, or sarcasm, and perhaps upsetting to you, but an ad hominem it ain't

Ad hominem arguments take the form "Herupakrath's AL Cypher interpretation is incorrect because Herupakrath has a geometric avatar" or more formally "A's argument is incorrect because of [some characteristic alleged of A]."

My statement that "I am certain you are impressed with yourself" does not make any judgment as to the correctness of your solution, and does not ascribe that judgement it doesn't make to any characteristic you possess (it would be tough for me to do this, since i know literally nothing about you).

Also, before you go claiming that ad hominem attacks are fallacious, you might want to study up a bit. Here is a perfectly valid argument that takes an ad hominem form: "The jury should not believe the testimony of this witness because she has been convicted of perjury three times." Ad hominem arguments are often referred to as one of the "informal fallacies".

Perhaps best to avoid using words/phrases if you don't know what they mean?

Posted by: @herupakraath

I apply standard gematria technique to the letters in the II:76 puzzle, and convert them into numbers, producing a mathematical solution to the puzzle.

You have told me exactly zero information about your methods here- i cannot replicate them from this description. Perhaps leaving out any relevant information was why you were able to be so brief.

As we saw above, there really is no such thing as "standard gematria techniques"- the wikipedia article linked above lists 25 methods of converting Hebrew letters to numbers. There are no Hebrew letters in the cypher, so we need to either convert those letters to Hebrew, and use one of the 25 different systems to convert those letters to numbers, or invent an English qabala (which is by definition non-standard, since there is no agreed standard here).

What letter values do you assign, and why do you use those values, and not one of the many other systems?

Then, you mention these numbers "produce" a "mathematical solution" to the puzzle. Numbers don't actually do anything all by themselves. Presumably you mean that you do something with those numbers, but you don't say what.

Do you perhaps add up all the number values? This is the only procedure that can remotely be described as using "standard gematria techniques", as i have shown above.

If not simple addition, what do you do, and why do you do it?

The result is presumably a number: why do we care? I am guessing that this numerical result involves some sort of interpretation before it has any meaning, no? What are the grounds for this interpretation?

(@elitemachinery)
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Posted by: @aleisterion

Aiwaz isn't asking us: he's telling us. There isn't going to be a single Beast, but a series of them. Not just one Aeonic Prophet but many.

The bible clearly states that there will be several Beasts. Not exactly sure at the moment where Aiwass says this but if can remind me?

The problem with anything "Beast" related is that it has ONLY negative connotations in our collective unconscious. Unless you are a rock star celebrity like Lady Gaga playing a carefully crafted globalist Satanic Illuminati "character" for your NWO masters I fail to see how any person could survive such a claim in the real world nor would this role be useful in any respect. Perhaps posthumously?

Great Beast is pure negative in our current world. Ask 10 random people on the street you will get 10 negative answers. When u reach 100 you will have gotten one positive answer.

Bill Gates seems very keen on being some form of evil Beast of Revelation with his forced jabs and Mark of the Beast implants and Dr. Who persona...hasn't he already killed thousands in India? I'm no expert but he seems to want the role. What good is it?

Posted by: @aleisterion

Then again, it's all a matter of perspective. If one doesn't subscribe to the reality of superior paranormal intelligences such as Aiwaz, then one might think otherwise. In my own experience, paramundane intelligence is real.

I believe in paranormal intelligence. I seriously doubt the value in human beings directly and intently giving them voice in our dimension, then claiming this info to be important and prophetic. Just because it's strange? Or coincidental? Madness.

Personally, I think Dogs are the most intelligent beings on the planet and are here to teach us. They know how stupid we are yet they remain loyal and keep hoping that one day we will get it. Life need not be so complicated.

DOG=GOD

(@aleisterion)
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Posts: 384

Posted by: @elitemachinery

The bible clearly states that there will be several Beasts. Not exactly sure at the moment where Aiwass says this but if can remind me?

I'm saying it. Not being egotistical here at all, but since I was a little tike I've always had tiny flashes of things which eventually came to pass. We all have small siddhis, and foresight is one I've been blessed with. Take it or leave it, but I see many oracles and prophets supplementing the original vision, with fresh, exciting orgia that stir up enormous subtle forces in the world.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

The problem with anything "Beast" related is that it has ONLY negative connotations in our collective unconscious.

It leads to the Shadow Realm of noumenal expansion, where the horizons of realization become unlimited. I see no "negative" or "positive" in the symbolism, whether it involves inversion or reversion, it leads not to negativity but to greater realization and empowerment.

Why must it be popular though? I don't care what multitudes of the unknowing think. And I don't think that Aiwaz much cares what they think, either.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

Personally, I think Dogs are the most intelligent beings on the planet and are here to teach us.

I totally agree. We have must to learn from beasts. And from what I've seen of people, I much prefer the company of muts.

(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4388

Posted by: @elitemachinery

Personally, I think Dogs are the most intelligent beings on the planet and are here to teach us. They know how stupid we are yet they remain loyal and keep hoping that one day we will get it. Life need not be so complicated.

DOG=GOD

Yes, and DOG=GOD is inarguable from the point of view of gematria (to try to be a tad OT).

Is a God to live in a dog? No! [AL, II;19]

Aiwass, or Hadit, here demonstrates that he "does not know his hole from an ass in the ground", to quote the Firesign Theatre. One wonders what Anubis, and the other dog-headed Egyptian gods, might have to say here.

Where better for a god to incarnate than in a dog? Your average dog is a far better creature than your average human. The best dogs are much better than the best humans. They are higher creatures than us.

And AC owned dogs, so he had no excuse, except of course to claim that some praeternatural intelligence is responsible for this idiot remark (and the three other disparaging remarks about dogs in AL).

(@aleisterion)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 384

Posted by: @ignant666

Aiwass, or Hadit, here demonstrates that he "does not know his hole from an ass in the ground", to quote the Firesign Theatre.

Where better for a god to incarnate than in a dog?

Why be limited to a literal interpretation? The last verse of the book outright declares that the book is "Written and Concealed".

There can be many subtle meanings hidden there. I also suspect a connection to the "dog-star" in that verse, and possibly a strike against ordinary theism.

(@katrice)
Black Soror, Selfie-stick poseur
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 1037

Posted by: @elitemachinery

Crowley in his attempt to rebel and create something new has simply fallen into the biblical trap.

Crowley's Biblical influence is pretty obvious, it shows in a lot of his work.  Part of it is his rebelling against his upbringing, part of it is taking new ideas and using old imagery for them.

But on the other side, there is a disturbing number of Thelemites whose approach to Thelema is more like Christianity with a facelift. They never left their old beliefs, they just dressed them up in new imagery. AL is their Bible, to be taken literally and never questioned or re-interpreted, Crowley is their Jesus and they're waiting for their Second Coming and Apocalypse, and they act like the Christians in Jack Chick tracts only with Thelemic terminology.  They mistrust personal revelatory experiences unless those experiences exactly parrot the Holy Books, they dismiss other peoples' magickal results as either delusional or the work of sinister entities.

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 7760

Posted by: @elitemachinery

So you subscribe to this same nonsense and are clearly encouraging all this "chosen one" misinformation?

Read my scribble throughout the threads and the topics. I don't sub-scribe to nonsense, except to quote, compare, or apply subtle sarcasm to concepts. I scribe about my own direct experience(s), which today (this sunny morn in Nuevo Mexico), the aphorism of the day comes to me from Billy Jack, who said ...

"When lawmen break the law, it's no longer a matter of Law
- It's a fight for Survival."

In order to do this (survive), one must become self-reliant. In every way. You are eligible to receive this truth because you live in a heathen foreign country where the people look, talk, and act different, and you go out on adventures to the first world on missions of compassion, but you return to the jungle. Um, I suspect you are self-reliant.

Self-reliant people do not rely on Beasts or Pigeons. Our method is Survival - our aim is to avoid Religions.

I (sub)scribe to the concept of wu-wei, and everything else is curious and quaint correspondence with these Beasts, various Constitutions, the price of Ammunition, Star Wars, and the numerical numeration of the correctly-spelled YHVH. These are all abstract concepts (except for ammo prices), and they do not usually have any practical us in daily life.

So the sum total of my posts will reveal a pattern of making fun of anything.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

... some sort of prize at the end of the rainbow

If one is still standing at the far end of the spectrum ("the last [wo]man standing"), one has one the prize.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

We'd all be better off getting rid of both books.

"Every initiate comes to the point where he burns all his books."

Well, some capitalists will just sell them off for profit or beer-money, but the idea is that we shrug off what other people think-write and face the universe directly, by standing alone without support from fellows or filosophies (some people fall down at this point, but if they can get up and try again, it might work).

Confession: When clearing the dech, I have sold, burned, given away, and trashed many treasure-books. I am therefore unable to categorize the extent of my heresy.

We will all be better off when we burn (sell, barter) all (ALL) our books. This can be a mental/astral act - the library may actually remain physically touchable - but the content no longer has its prior importance.

Posted by: @michael-staley

To judge from his posts over the years, I don't think he does. I think he's being ironic.

As I said.

Posted by: @jg

Liber AL does not exist in the consciousness of humanity

The essence of AL being individual self-reliance. With most of humanity on some form of welfare, this concept is often missing. The current popular term for such people is Matrix Characters, Sheeple, or Drones. How unfortunate. It is possible that such folk will never grasp AL  for "let my servants be few and secret."

Posted by: @michael-staley

What elite?

That may have been "I am with you, Elite," referring to alliance with EliteMachinery, or "Frater Elite," or his ideas, among other deviations and pronunciations.

Posted by: @ignant666

But he did it in less words than your request, so he wins by saying less - because nothing is the ultimate goal.

However, that is abstract, and the puzzle is more practical, so to avoid mixing the planes I guess we need more numbers, letters and = signs.

(@herupakraath)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 639

Posted by: @ignant666

Well, no, actually, it isn't. It may well be mockery, or sarcasm, and perhaps upsetting to you, but an ad hominem it ain't

Ad Hominem is Latin, means "to the person," and applies when a discussion is abruptly changed from the subject being discussed, to one of those involved in the discussion. Your fallacy was by definition, Ad Hominem: "I am certain you are impressed with yourself."

Posted by: @ignant666

Also, before you go claiming that ad hominem attacks are fallacious,

I did not coin the term, nor did I define its meaning, so you'll have to take it with those that did.

Posted by: @ignant666

Do you perhaps add up all the number values? This is the only procedure that can remotely be described as using "standard gematria techniques", as i have shown above.

How many ways must I say it?

Posted by: @ignant666

The result is presumably a number: why do we care?

Because it's not something that's easily dismissed as either luck or deception.

(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4388

Posted by: @herupakraath

Ad Hominem is Latin, means "to the person," and applies when a discussion is abruptly changed from the subject being discussed, to one of those involved in the discussion.

As is apparently usual with you, you once again have no idea what you are talking about.

The initial, unbolded part is correct- it is short for argumentum ad hominem, and is a term of art in logic meaning a class of arguments [as in formal arguments, in the logic sense, not disputes between persons]:

Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". [wikipedia, "Ad hominem"]

In short, exactly what i said it meant, and not at all what you think it means. That you take offense at something i said does not make it an ad hominem argument.

To be super-clear:

1. If i were to say "All Cypher Solvers' solutions are crap, because all Cypher Solvers are left-handed", that would be an ad hominem argumen- it attacks the solvers, not the solutions (the arguments the solvers have made)
2. If i were to say "All Cypher Solvers are fools, therefore all their solutions are crap", that would not be an ad hominem argument- it attacks the solutions with a piece of evidence.

As to your responses to my queries as to your methods, i still don't know what they are:

1. You attribute number values by some system you don't specify- what system is used?,
2. I think you have now confirmed that you add the resulting values up (do you also add in the number numbers?),
3. You get some number,
4. You interpret this number as being "not something that's easily dismissed as either luck or deception." Why is this so? Why is this number meaningful? I don't recall mentioning that i think you are deceptive- for the record, i have no reason to think this, and don't.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 2341

Maybe you should read herupakraath's "Tri-Key" pamphlets, you should find them here somewhere because he posted them here, they are quite short. There you will find how he attrubited which numbers to which letters of the English alphabet (this part is at least interesting). In short, depending of how often a letter appears in Liber L it gets its value, E (the most appearing letter) gets 1, T (the second most appearing one) gets 2 and so on up to Z which is only 3 times in Liber L and therefore gets 26. Then you can learn all about the Gematria which led to the conclusion that he is the Chosen One and how Aiwass predicted Covid.

Love=Law

Lutz

P.S. I could mail them to you if I figure out your mail adress puzzle.

(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4388

@the_real_simon_iff - Thank you so much for saving the time it might take me to figure all that out.

Will pass on further discussion, or exploration, of this "Qabala of ETAOIN SHRDLU"-based Solution at this time.

Did Aiwass actually "predict" COVID before COVID, in the sense that this revelation was available before late fall 2019, or is this a "prediction" discovered after the event had transpired?

This person has published something that literally says he is "The Chosen One", and yet he has the effrontery to be offended when i say "i am certain that you are impressed with yourself"?

Seriously? Never mind that he is in the habit of running his mouth without knowing what he is talking about, but....

Just left saying"Holy chutzpah, Batman!"

(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 2341

Posted by: @ignant666

This person has published something that literally says he is "The Chosen One", and yet he has the effrontery to be offended when i say "i am certain that you are impressed with yourself"?

Well, I guess he does not say it literally. He just shows that riddle adds up to his name and birthplace.

(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4388

Oh, is that all?

My remarks stand.

(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 2341

Posted by: @ignant666

Oh, is that all?

My remarks stand.

Do you mean what I wrote or the Tri-Key pamphlets?

(@the_real_simon_iff)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 2341

Posted by: @ignant666

Did Aiwass actually "predict" COVID before COVID, in the sense that this revelation was available before late fall 2019, or is this a "prediction" discovered after the event had transpired?

I downloaded it April 2020, probably when it appeared (I am a sucker for that stuff).

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 7760

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

he posted them here

So a question like, "How did you ...?" could be answered by referring the questioner to these docs. When I asked a similar question, of a different author, he replied by listing the numbers, the letters, and the =s. The statement, "I followed standard gematria" is subject to local dialects, absurd accents, and funny fiddlings. Now that the secret doc has been re-revealed, we can look forward to some real mathematical manifestations.

Posted by: @ignant666

Did Aiwass actually "predict" COVID before COVID

Well, yes, he said "Fresh Fever from the Skies," which does NOT bear a Cov or Sars stamp of Authenticity.

(@ignant666)
Elderly American druggie
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 4388

"Is that all?" referred to his not quite calling himself "The Chosen One", no, no, no, modest he has only just found his name and birthplace in the Cypher, and is thus The One Who Comes After.

So "Aiwass" "predicted" COVID in April 2020? Quite an impressive feat! Hey, i am predicting a big volcanic explosion in Tonga for Saturday, January 15, 2022- turns out i was right!

(@herupakraath)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 639

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

P.S. I could mail them to you if I figure out your mail adress puzzle.

No need, I'll be posting an updated solution soon.

(@elitemachinery)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 640

Posted by: @katrice

But on the other side, there is a disturbing number of Thelemites whose approach to Thelema is more like Christianity with a facelift. They never left their old beliefs, they just dressed them up in new imagery.

Well stated Katrice.

Posted by: @aleisterion

I'm saying it. Not being egotistical here at all, but since I was a little tike I've always had tiny flashes of things which eventually came to pass.

This is called intuition or being psychic. These are natural qualities that all humans possess in varying degrees depending on how tuned in they are. Animals have this also. Nothing extraordinary about it. Too much of this and some drugs and you may lose grip. Nothing to brag about really.

William Blake was apparently a raw nerve and creative genius. He created art and poetry of his musings. No ego trip. Why is this chosen one stuff and second beast stuff such an ego trip? Because the individuals do not create anything of value to share with others? Only grand statements and lofty titles.

Posted by: @aleisterion

Why must it be popular though? I don't care what multitudes of the unknowing think. And I don't think that Aiwaz much cares what they think, either.

Once upon a time Crowley lived his life in relative obscurity (beyond a few loyal followers and some bad press from time to time.) He could wax on about being The Beast and such things without being taken too seriously or scaring the natives too much. He was also known as a prankster with a devilish sense of humor. If he wrote a letter to his followers in California perhaps it would take 2 months for them to receive it and a grand total or perhaps 3 people would read it.

Fast forward to anyone in the 21st century who seriously thinks they are either "chosen one" or "second beast." Your emails are regularly scanned so that note you send to your 3 followers is now in a database of potential kooks and crazies. That website you made is now going viral on reddit and reporters have gathered outside your home to meet the Second Beast. Your neighbors aren't too happy to find out they live next to Aleister Crowley's demonic heir and state this on LIVE TV, and your wife uses the entire episode as evidence to the courts to take custody of your kids.

This "chosen one" and second beast" stuff is all from the bible...its mythology and fairy tales...not too be taken so seriously...its lives in reality and in our imaginations as story and myth...but those that take it too seriously risk injuring themselves or others or ending up in a looney bin.

Posted by: @aleisterion

Let me be clear: I do believe that Aleister Crowley is dead and not reincarnated; and I certainly don't want to be him, personally I'm not much like him.

But you've been in touch him recently?

I do remember browsing thru your posts many years ago and you had posted a picture of yourself with a shaved head in response to Michael Staley as if to imply that you were in fact AC reincarnated. Perhaps you've changed your mind? Now you're just the "Second Beast?" Hey i'm ripe for poking fun also. But IMHO these mental dalliances have no practical value. We have no practical verifiable examples of reincarnation. Besides, AC was a persona, a character. Ego's do not reincarnate ever. They are like old PC's. Unusable garbage.

These mental dalliances only work as stories or myths. In that sense they CAN add to our lives thru folklore and legend. Musicians are often inspired by and write about myths. Writers also. Any actor that takes his public image and success too seriously (invincible tough guy, superhero, ladies man, sex symbol, james bond hero, etc) usually spends a long fall lamenting not having not made clear to her/his ego and differentiated the man from the myth.

This is why musicians are allowed such creative license. They get it. We the public get it. It's role playing. You're not really Ziggy Stardust it's a character.

Posted by: @ignant666

This person has published something that literally says he is "The Chosen One", and yet he has the effrontery to be offended when i say "i am certain that you are impressed with yourself"?

As long he only has one vote (his own) he should be ok. There are plenty of clones her on Lashtal. But if he ever gains any traction and gets a few votes or followers, that's when the teardrops start.

Posted by: @herupakraath

Because it's not something that's easily dismissed as either luck or deception.

All numbers are infinite. Any number arrived at once by using convoluted methods means absolutely nothing.

Posted by: @ignant666

Will pass on further discussion, or exploration, of this "Qabala of ETAOIN SHRDLU"-based Solution at this time.

I learn something every day here on Lashtal. I remember walking by the printing facilities for a Newspaper in Brooklyn back in 1985. Man they had to type set that paper every day multiple times by hand and send it out citywide. Crazy. Add this to my list of phrases if i can remember to use it.

(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 7760

Posted by: @elitemachinery

This is called intuition or being psychic.

Specifically, he refers to precognition. I don't think he needs it explained to him.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

This "chosen one" and second beast" stuff is all from the bible...its mythology and fairy tales...not too be taken so seriously...

I don't have much concern for "the chosen one," because I was told (internally) that the chosen ones choose themselves. It is said that the A.'.A.'. offers one slim chance for entry. The candidate for probation must say "Yes" in a short period of time. He/she has chosen. How far anyone gets up to make a choice at the top rung of the ladder is up to them.

But this Beast #1 & #2 might be a bit morepractical (as a metaphor, not necessarily a person, certainly not me and probably not you.

If the report is true (released in the past 3 days or so), a "startup company" in Sweden is already producing human microchips to track the vax, and some Swedes can now be seen passing their empty hand over a scanner when making purchases - because the chip is also linked to their credit card.

Holy Cow, I was immediately reminded of ...

Rev 13:17-18, as follows with quaint explanations that are obvious.

And the second beast required all people small and great,
rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their
right hand or on their forehead,
17

18Here is a call for wisdom:
Let the one who has insight calculate the number
of the beast, for it is the number of a man,
and that number is 666.

Add these two synchronous concepts with assorted calls for tracking everyone with Microsoft technology ... well, maybe this line or two could be taken seriously - as a metaphor.

I don't think AC is necessarily the first beast. His name comes up in any area that glows slightly with a metaphysical whiff. But who knows? He announced the change ... but I hardly see a second beast come along to reinforce AC writings by tracking them and automatically deducting their dues in advance is consistent with making people do the work in order to become a Horus-like, sovereign individual.

So I'm not connecting the dots, because the lines get blurry, and I don't have a clear picture or sermon to preach. But, darn, if some ancient text isn't lining up, at least here and there, with the impending Star Wars version of reality.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

AC was a persona, a character. Ego's do not reincarnate ever.

Yes he was. We all are. You are making reference to the Po in Oriental Medicine, a very practical science, which is translated "animal soul." It is associated with cunning and grasping. Can you believe it? - The Po  lives in the lungs, and that is the greatest organ to harbor "evil chi." It is best that this ends with the ending of breathing. It dies. The Chinese word Chi means "breath."

Then there's this thing called the Hun, which is not related to the barbaric German tribe, which is translated "ancestral soul," or more commonly (the hard-working common people) as the "reincarnating soul." This is why the Chinese are into ancestor worship. We all carry this in our DNA - this spark that moves on.

But that's just Chinese theory. Looking toward western science, reincarnation has not been accepted and certainly not proven. How can a 5D (causal) entity interface with or 3D (physical) reality, when the 4D (astral) is only beginning now to cross that interface?

But science has adopted a new term, and many accept/believe it is true. It is genetic memory, which is characterized by "memories that have no sense input (n sound, sight, pressure, etc caused them). Other lives are perceived as "memory" with a certain amount of data that can be proven in historical records.

In closing, see what U.G. said: If you believe in reincarnation, there is reincarnation. If you do not believe in reincarnation, then there is no reincarnation.

F

(@aleisterion)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 384

Posted by: @elitemachinery

This is called intuition or being psychic. These are natural qualities that all humans possess in varying degrees depending on how tuned in they are. Animals have this also. Nothing extraordinary about it. Too much of this and some drugs and you may lose grip. Nothing to brag about really.

Projecting your universe onto mine doesn't really work, but think what you will, okay. 👍

Posted by: @elitemachinery

Once upon a time Crowley lived his life in relative obscurity (beyond a few loyal followers and some bad press from time to time.)

I know the story well enough but thanks.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

But you've been in touch him recently?

We did some paranormal work in the '90s and early 2000s that led us to think that Aleister Crowley remains discarnate. Laugh it off, try to poke holes in the idea, I don't much care but that is what we think.

Posted by: @elitemachinery

I do remember browsing thru your posts many years ago and you had posted a picture of yourself with a shaved head in response to Michael Staley as if to imply that you were in fact AC reincarnated. Perhaps you've changed your mind? Now you're just the "Second Beast?"

Don't have a clue where you're getting this idea, but I never claimed to be a reincarnation of Crowley. I failed so badly at Crowley's "backwards thinking" method of attempting to recall past lives, I developed my own methods. Eventually I got flashes of incarnations, brief glimpses of lives lived before, but none of these was famous in a big way so far as I know. As for shaving my head, you try living in the deep south of the U.S. for 20 years and see how long you keep a full head of hair. I'm so happy to be back up north again in the frozen tundra.

Posted by: @shiva

I don't think AC is necessarily the first beast.

There have been prophets and oracles of Aiwaz since the dawn of humankind...no, long before that even.

(@elitemachinery)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 640

Posted by: @shiva

Specifically, he refers to precognition. I don't think he needs it explained to him.

I knew you were going to say that!

Posted by: @shiva

I don't think AC is necessarily the first beast. His name comes up in any area that glows slightly with a metaphysical whiff. But who knows? He announced the change ... but I hardly see a second beast come along to reinforce AC writings by tracking them and automatically deducting their dues in advance is consistent with making people do the work in order to become a Horus-like, sovereign individual.

Agreed. But the problem lies in the fact that anything titled Beast is taken only in the context of Biblical scripture in our collective world consciousness. It has ONLY negative connotations. I live in Asia, so there are very few people waiting for Armageddon here, they know not who the Great Beast is and 99% have never read any book let alone the Bible. But if you say "Devil man" every spear chucking native this side of Saturn know what you are talking about. Crowley is still a Satanist accused of unspeakable acts (with no evidence) in 21st Century myth and lore. If you call yourself a Beast of any kind you will suffer the burden and be misunderstood (at best!)

Posted by: @aleisterion

We did some paranormal work in the '90s and early 2000s that led us to think that Aleister Crowley remains discarnate. Laugh it off, try to poke holes in the idea, I don't much care but that is what we think.

So you have not spoken to AC recently? But did speak some time ago? Thanks for answering.

Posted by: @aleisterion

Don't have a clue where you're getting this idea, but I never claimed to be a reincarnation of Crowley. I failed so badly at Crowley's "backwards thinking" method of attempting to recall past lives, I developed my own methods. Eventually I got flashes of incarnations, brief glimpses of lives lived before, but none of these was famous in a big way so far as I know.

Ok perhaps I was mistaken what you were inferring in that earlier post but it's clear to me in this exchange i've screen-capped from the 2007 Lashtal that both Michael Staley and the webmaster Mr. Feazey both "got" what you were inferring and poked a bit of fun at you. I have personally been at the same end of this "being poked fun of stick" as you (at various times) and survived so no judgement. Just getting clear where you sit.

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

(@aleisterion)
Member
Joined: 20 years ago
Posts: 384

Posted by: @elitemachinery

So you have not spoken to AC recently? But did speak some time ago? Thanks for answering.

I never wrote that I did "speak to him" at all. LOL you have a bad habit of putting words in others' mouths, and of making unfounded assumptions. Not exactly grounds for a healthy discussion! And how does any of this relate to the topic of the thread? Your screencaps are another unwarranted diversion from the topic, to attack me with a silly exchange that happened years ago about a Halloween picture LMAO! They prove nothing, you nitwit. I have the utmost respect for Michael Staley and Paul Feazey; you're reaching for chinks in the ole' armor, I see, but none of it has anything to do with this thread. Thanks for answering though. 😀

(@herupakraath)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 639

Posted by: @elitemachinery

All numbers are infinite. Any number arrived at once by using convoluted methods means absolutely nothing.

Okay, how about many numbers that are arrived at objectively then, would that constitute proof of something--my question is hypothetical.

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