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wellreadwellbred
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07/03/2020 6:54 am  

Was the HGA also the actual initiator in the Golden Dawn Order in which AC started on his path as an initiate?

 

Background-information pertaining to the subject-matter question in the title, and the original posting, of this thread: 

 

"BOTL (= Book of the Law), I,49: "... Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating."

"Nuit is Infinite Extension; Hadit Infinite Contraction. [...] they are the two opposing Infinites whose interplay gives Finity." [...] ", their conjunction results in [...] Adonai[(*)], the Holy Guardian Angel[(*)]. Also Hoor ...". (Source: The Old Comment - - - http://www.oto-hu.org/documents/essay/english/The_Old_Comment_to_Liber_AL_vel_Legis.html )

- Adonai[(*)]: "Adonai: Hebrew word for "lord," intoned in the south in the LBRP, and with the pentagram of Earth in the SIRP."
- Holy Guardian Angel[(*)]: "HGA: Holy Guardian Angel. (see Higher Self) [...] Higher Self: A personification of the transcendent spiritual self that is said to reside in Tiphareth and mediate between the Divine Self and the Lower Personality. Sometimes referred to as the Holy Guardian Angel, the Lower Genius, and the Augoeides."
(Source: "GOLDEN DAWN GLOSSARY [...] Copyright © 1997 by The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn - - - http://wolf.mind.net/library/ancient/qabala/kabgloss.ht m"

- Adonai[(*)]: "Adonai is a Hebrew word meaning "Lord." It is sometimes used to refer to the Holy Guardian Angel. (See especially Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente vel LXV in this regard.)" (Source: Adonai From Thelemapedia - - - http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Adonai )
- Holy Guardian Angel[(*)]: "The Holy Guardian Angel is representative of one’s truest divine nature. The term is equivalent with the Genius of the Golden Dawn, the Augoeides of Iamblichus, the Atman of Hinduism, and the Daemon of the gnostics.

In the system of Magick, the single most important goal is to consciously connect with one’s HGA, a process termed “Knowledge and Conversation.” By doing so, the magician becomes fully aware of his own True Will. For Aleister Crowley, this event was the single most important goal of any adept: [...]
Table of contents [hide]
1 The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage
2 HGA and Black Magick
3 Methods of Achieving K&C
4 HGA in writing
5 See also
6 External links
7 References ..." (Source: Adonai From Thelemapedia - - - http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Holy_Guardian_Angel )

"Horus is a symbol of the power of the Holy Guardian Angel in The Book of the Law. Therefore this sign symbolizes the Holy Guardian Angel acting through the agency of the magician." ( Source: Thelemistas! - - - https://www.thelemistas.org/en/MSS/Bjorge/SpiritualExercises/07-pentagram )

"The Sixth Sephirah is called Tipareth or "Beauty." Tiphareth lies at the very center of the Tree of Life (the center of Equilibrium) and receives the powers of all the other Sephiroth.  [...]

The center of the Tree of Life is ths place of the Reconciler or Redeemer. God-forms of this energy include Christ, Buddha and Osiris. This is because Tipareth mediates beween the God-head in Kether (the one Source) and the material universe. [...]

Tiphareth is an especially mystical sphere. The spiritual experience that takes place in Tiphareth is the Vision of the Harmony of Things. This is due to the fact that the Higher Self, or Holy Guardian Angel, of every individual sits in Tipareth; referring again to Tipareth as the mirror of Kether -the Divine Self. The goal of all spiritual experience is the search for the Light, which is obtained by devotion to the Great Work. Tiphareth is the sphere of lllumination and of Healing. This is why the so-called Christ-consciousness is placed here."

(Source: Self-Initiation Into the Golden Dawn Tradition: A Complete Curriculum of Study for Both the Solitary Magician and the Working Magical Group2003 Llewellyn puclications, by Chic Cicero and Sandra Tabatha Cicero, page 66 and 67.)"

 


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RuneLogIX
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07/03/2020 11:46 am  

The founders of the GD claimed to have authorization to do so from the "Secret Chiefs" who were presumed to be German adepts of the Rosicrucian Order and or the invisible non-living masters of humanity in the doctrine of Theosophy. Your question can be answered with either a poetic "yes" to a concrete "no." TBH it is not clear to me that K&C with a HGA is the spiritual purpose of the 2nd order of the GD (RC) although it appears to me that the Abermelin book/ritual was Mathers most lasting legacy. AC named lower/outer order of the AA Golden Dawn to infer that the GD teachings were the beginning of his spiritual system and that he moved onto higher spiritual truths and- to use the term in vogue at the time- attainments. I would think that Israel Regardie's books are the best resource on the topic of GD spiritual development.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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Shiva
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07/03/2020 6:24 pm  
Posted by: @runelogix

Your question can be answered with either a poetic "yes" to a concrete "no."

Agreed. This thread has the potential to go on until the day before forever. On forever day, the duality act will be dropped, and this minor, highly-debatable topic will simply disappear.

Until then, everyone will simply have to try and enjoy the duality thing, which cannot be proven, because it's an abstract conception.

This "authority" thing is packed with determination, supposition, and maybe a bit of "making it up." Anyone who writes a book, booklet, or Liber, is an "author," and is therefore is entitled to whatever "authority" he or she can get out of it.

Here's what happened, without any mumbo ...

Mathers, et al, tapped AC on the head with a wand or a feather.
This awoke an adolescent 666, who brought stormy weather.
It doesn't matter if this was backed by human Chiefs or HGA.
The GD crashed, the AA arose - and it happened in just that way.

Now the scriptures are filled with fantastic tales of Secret Chiefs, Praeterhuman entities, AEgyptian gods, and naughty beasts. If the tale was trimmed down to "some RC guys in Deutchland" gave permission for some Masonic guys in Anglia to open a temple that purported to show the way to solve the mystery of life," there'd be less room for investigation and argument.

 


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ignant666
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07/03/2020 6:51 pm  

Or even further trimmed (in a logical if not word-length sense) to "some Masons forged some documents about mythical German authorities that gave permission for..."


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Jamie J Barter
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07/03/2020 7:37 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Or even further trimmed (in a logical if not word-length sense) to "some Masons forged some documents about mythical German authorities that gave permission for..."

Agreed.

Posted by: @runelogix
Posted by: @runelogix

Your question can be answered with either a poetic "yes" to a concrete "no."

Agreed. This thread has the potential to go on until the day before forever.

Agreed and agreed.

Next!

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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07/03/2020 8:25 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Next!

Forever Day will be celebrated on April the Oneth this year.

 


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hadgigegenraum
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07/03/2020 8:32 pm  
Posted by: @shiva
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Next!

Forever Day will be celebrated on April the Oneth this year.

 

lol


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The HGA of a Duck
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07/03/2020 8:46 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

Forever Day will be celebrated on April the Oneth

Actually its being celebrated continuously on April the Zeroth all the time.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/03/2020 10:24 pm  

shiva: "Forever Day will be celebrated on April the Oneth this year." 

 

Great stuff if RTC's "the HGA is the actual initiator"-toy, turns out to inaugurate initiations on a global scale from said day.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/03/2020 11:39 pm  

"... no technical failure of any kind soever could necessarily prevent him [= the Aspirant for initiation] from accomplishing the Two Critical Tasks, since the fact of his incarnation itself proves that he has taken the Oath which entitled him to attain to the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel, and the annihilation of this Ego. One might therefore be an Adeptus Minor or even a Magister Templi, in essence, though refused official recognition by the A.'.A.' ..." (Source: One Star in Sight - - - https://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/app2 by Aleister Crowley.)

 

Is AC's acceptance of Self-Initiation according to his Thelema's initiatic system, something he learned from the initiatic system within the Golden Dawn Order in which he started on his path as an initiate, or does the latter initiatic system require a group to work properly?


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RuneLogIX
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08/03/2020 12:10 am  

Although this is not a response to OP's question, in my reply I admitted my ignorance on a particular point of the GD grade system that I found in my study today and it seems relevant to this discussion. James Eshelman's Visions & Voices page 38:

As a practical example [between the differences between GD and AA grades], the 5=6 in the Golden Dawn is a stage where the initiate solemnly swears to aspire to and attain a particular spiritual threshold, but the AA grade called 5=6 marks one who actually has attained the threshold.

Later on he goes on to assert that the GD and AA degree frameworks operate on different sephiroth scale in the Four Worlds and provides a chart of the extensive differences between both Orders as he sees it. I think he makes strong arguments for the points he makes, time will tell if his view achieves acceptance among a wider audience.

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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wellreadwellbred
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08/03/2020 6:50 am  

According to Tony DeLuce: "... one could adapt the Golden Dawn System in such a way to facilitate Self-Initiation but that is not the same thing as being Initiated into the Golden Dawn. The Golden Dawn System *is* a system that requires a Group to work properly - there really is no getting around this." (Source: Self-Initiation - - - http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4484 )

 

And according to Los: "... all initiation is self initiation.", and "Success in "initiation" is characterized by seeing reality clearly (especially seeing the Self clearly). Part of the training has to be obtaining a clearer and clearer picture of the world around you, and a good start is recognizing that none of this stuff has any bearing on "the evolution of the human race" and that there's no "need" for any of it.​" (Source: Self-Initiation - - - http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11374#p75416 ).

And also according to Erwin: "All "initiation" is "self-initiation", unless you're merely talking about formal initiation into groups. Nobody else can put "initiation" into your head. All anyone else can ever hope to do is to engineer suitable circumstances for you to "initiate" yourself.

"It is impossible to lay down precise rules by which a man may attain to the knowledge and conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel; for that is the particular secret of each one of us; as secret not to be told or even divined by any other, whatever his grade. It is the Holy of Holies, whereof each man is his own High Priest, and none knoweth the Name of his brother's God, or the Rite that invokes Him." - One Star in Sight (Source: Self Initiation - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/magick/self-initiation/#post-50685 )

"The Vision and the Voice is an excellent example of Crowley's "Self"-Initiation.", according to one Anonymous in the latter source above. 

 

I appears from the above, that AC already in 1900 with the very beginning(-s) of what later became The Vision and the Voice, started doing self-initiation work, years before his The Book of the Law in which it is stated that "... Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating (I,49)." And that his – and his Thelema's – positive approach to solo self-initiation, represents a new approach to initiation, as opposed to the intiatic system of the Golden Dawn Order in which he first became an initiate, as the latter Order during his time as a member within it required a group (or group work), for its initiations to work properly.


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Shiva
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08/03/2020 7:45 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

According to Tony DeLuce: "... one could adapt the Golden Dawn System in such a way to facilitate Self-Initiation but that is not the same thing as being Initiated into the Golden Dawn. The Golden Dawn System *is* a system that requires a Group to work properly - there really is no getting around this." (Source: Self-Initiation - - - http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4484 )

Sometimes one has no choice but to get around it.

I suppose one could say the same thing about OTO. There are three officers in Saladin's tent. But when it came time to resurrect the corpse of Agape Lodge, the last Saladin handed over the rituals (with 3 officers written therin) to a middle-aged (44) waitress who was an ex-nurse. "Carry on," he said ... and then he died.

That worked out with her assuming three roles, using three different pitches ov voice (mickey mouse, normal everyday, and beware bass). I was the candidate.

Then we two brought in a third.

From thereon a triad processed about 75 people. About that many came in close as well, but they either got scared shinolaless, or they received an energetic rejection, so they don't count.

That all lasted nine years. The last Saladin died in a tent in San Vicente, Baja California, South of the Wall.

The next Saladin stepped right in. Name of McMurtry. Well, you know where that went.

Now, here is my point.

It doesn't matter what any experts say.
They apparently haven't done the play.
Give me your rituals of the Golden Dawn.
Send me your Saladins, as I yawn.
Any rites of the Freemasons, too.
I'll reduce them all down to two:

The Initiator and the Candidate.

The objections to my point, by Charters, of Triads, from Lineage traditions, via copyright and cultural continuity, and all that other glitter, are gratefully accepted, as I have already raised them myself.

Additionally, any of these systems, after being boiled down into what is known as two people face-to-face (even if one is blindfolded or hoodwinked), it can be further reduced to solo self-initiation. It may not have been intended that way, and such a thing might seem impossible, but there really are no rules. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, go join Hare Krishna.

Everything I've read says GD used GD methods, and there wasn't any teaching about self-initiation. Group mentality rarely attempts to teach people how to leave and go off on their own. I did note that Perdurabo took all the outer degrees, and even got the fifth, before he decided he would teach people how to do it themselves ... by presenting an invisible order and a chain-link lineage.

 

 

 


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wellreadwellbred
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08/03/2020 8:17 am  

Also, in 1900, AC fabricated "... an entirely new Order of my own, called L.I.L.: the "Lamp of the Invisible Light". called L.I.L.: the "Lamp of the Invisible Light".", where "The general idea was to have an ever-burning lamp in a temple furnished with talismans appropriate to the elemental, planetary and zodiacal forces of nature. Daily invocations were to be performed with the object of making the light itself a consecrated centre or focus of spiritual energy. This light would then radiate and automatically enlighten such minds as were ready to receive it.

Even today, the experiment seems to me interesting and the conception sublime. I am rather sorry that I lost touch with don Jesus; I should like very much to know how it turned out.

I devoted practically my whole time to this and other magical work. I devised a Ritual of Self-Initiation (see The Equinox, vol. I, no. III, p.269), the essential feature of which is the working up of spiritual enthusiasm by means of a magical dance. This dance contained the secret gestures of my grade, combined with the corresponding words. "

(Source: Part Twio, The mystical adventure, chapter 23, in Confessions of Aleister Crowley.)

 

Said 'light' radiating and automatically enlightening said minds "ready to receive it", demonstrates that AC already in 1900 worked with an approach to initiation, fully aligned with solo self-initiation.


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wellreadwellbred
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08/03/2020 12:56 pm  

To clarify, said L.I.L. Order established by AC in 1900, was a fabrication in the sense that AC in his own words was granted "a certain amount of latitude" to establish it by Mathers, his superior in the Golden Dawn Order. And Mathers had no valid position of authority from said "Secret Chiefs", from which to grant AC said latitude, as Mathers in AC's own words "... had fallen. The Secret Chiefs cast him off; ...", and "the Secret Chiefs" conferred upon him "... the position which Mathers had forfeited." (Source: Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Part One: Towards the Golden Dawn, chapter 22, Part Two: The Mystical Adventure, chapter 23, and Part Three: The Advent of the Aeon of Horus, chapter 49.)

 

"I had also a certain amount of latitude granted by Mathers to initiate suitable people in partibus. I, therefore, established an entirely new Order of my own, called L.I.L.: the "Lamp of the Invisible Light." (Source: Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Part Two: The Mystical Adventure, chapter 23.)

 

Follow up question: Was AC a pioneer, or the first one, when he devised a Ritual of Self-Initiation in 1900?

 

"I devised a Ritual of Self-Initiation (see The Equinox, vol. I, no. III, p.269), the essential feature of which is the working up of spiritual enthusiasm by means of a magical dance. This dance contained the secret gestures of my grade, combined with the corresponding words." (Source: Part Twio, The mystical adventure, chapter 23, in Confessions of Aleister Crowley.)


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Tiger
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08/03/2020 2:12 pm  

“…reason is stunned by the black vacuum of our own not-knowing.We fear the dark, and we hide. We withdraw from the enormity that would devour us, that dark immensity which reminds us so much of the unknown and uncharted darkness of death. We baulk before the ebon sea whose depths are unimaginable, whose opposing shores are non existent, and in which we should surely drown. It is an ancient and primal human instinct.

Our quest leads us rhythmically into light and darkness, into wonder and obscurity, as from day into night before returning us to a new dawn. Our greatest light is followed by darkness and despair, in which it feels either that God has abandoned us, or that we have abandoned Her

… our former means of worship and communion fail us; our old formulae seem as empty devices

We seek to run, whether forward or back, and we are struck immobile, brought to stillness. We desire to cry out, whether of anguish or of love, and we are without voice, driven into silence. We can do nothing - except love, in that stillness and that silence. Our dryness, first painful and parching, ignites with heat that “ burns the bones, “ with yearning intense that cremates what we were. “

“ “ But it is death, and the flame of the pyre. Ascend in the flame of the pyre, O my soul! Thy God is like the cold emptiness of the utmost heaven, into which thou radiatest thy little light “
Liber VII, 1:39 “

Visions & Voices: Aleister Crowley's Enochian Visions with Astrological & Qabalistic Commentary by James A. Eshelman pg 1,2

“ By the symbol of Thy whirling force the Svastika of Flaming Light,
I invoke Thee to initiate my soul !
Let the whirling of my magic dance be a spell and a link with Thy great Light : so that in the Hour of Apophis, in the apparent darkness and corruption of unconsciousness, may rise the golden Sun of Aeshoori, reborn from incorruption. “

The Equinox, vol. I, no. III, p.272


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Shiva
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08/03/2020 4:57 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Even today, the experiment seems to me interesting and the conception sublime. I am rather sorry that I lost touch with don Jesus; I should like very much to know how it turned out.

Right on. I was fascinated with the L.I.L. when first reading about it. As time went on, I came to realize that your simple quote, above, tells the whole story: AC invented an Order, gave it to his Mexican brother in Mansonry Masonry, then went home yo know nothing more about it.

QBL classification:

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

AC in his own words was granted "a certain amount of latitude" to establish it by Mathers, his superior in the Golden Dawn Order. And Mathers had no valid position of authority from said "Secret Chiefs", from which to grant AC said latitude, as Mathers in AC's own words "... had fallen.

Oh yeah, this is the beginning of the (c)G.D., (c) L.I.L., (c) Mathers, (c)SDA, (TM) Secret Chiefs, (R)Germany, questionable "line of authority" issue, as the giants lined up to play King of the Hill. It will lead to expulsions, revolts, the revealing of secret data, and the whole story that we just love to read, over and over.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Was AC a pioneer, or the first one, when he devised a Ritual of Self-Initiation in 1900?

For our historical purposes, in consideration of GD, LIL, AA ... it seems he was first to tell people they could do it themselves. But in relation to everyone in the world ... he was probably not the first person to have such a heretical notion.

Posted by: @tiger

… our former means of worship and communion fail us; our old formulae seem as empty devices

What we need is a new Horus Toy (TM).

Posted by: @tiger

“ By the symbol of Thy whirling force the Svastika of Flaming Light,

Uh, oh!  now you've done it.

 

©

©

©

©

©

©

©

.

 


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 6:08 pm  
Posted by: @tiger

By the symbol of Thy whirling force the Svastika of Flaming Light,
I invoke Thee to initiate my soul !
Let the whirling of my magic dance be a spell and a link with Thy great Light

With attributes like true and apparent solar motion contained in the symbol the spins and motions around the circle would reflect the relationship of the Sky and Earth. The dance linking physical awareness with a larger understanding and conscious relationship with the universe. It's adaptable across many cultures. I added personal attributions recently of truths learned at Sun Dance and other Indigenous ceremonies over the years. Also contains the movement for rituals that use 4 elements/directions like the Star Ruby. An underlying connection to the HGA in the ritual's subtext following the implications of that quote from Equinox I,3.

Attribution to Kether and the Lamp in 777.

Crowley's type of formula regarding the HGA makes the HGA appear to be a universal consciousness rather than some descriptions which sound like those describing their HGA experience were deceived by a mischievous spirit.


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 6:16 pm  

THE TRIUMPHANT RETURN OF SVASTIKA-BOY !!!

HE HAS AN EXCUSE FOR DISPLAYING NAZI IMAGERY NOW !!!

STAND BACK !!!!


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 6:17 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

THE TRIUMPHANT RETURN OF SVASTIKA-BOY !!!

HE HAS AN EXCUSE FOR DISPLAYING NAZI IMAGERY NOW !!!

STAND BACK !!!!

You're so woke. Try to contribute to the topic instead. This isn't Nazi imagery being discussed. You're getting twisted over your own issues and misconceptions. 🙂 


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 6:35 pm  

Obviously, Comrade "Green Circle-Shamrock-Blue Target-Hooked Fish", aka Svastika-Boy, i am referring to you having reverted your forum avatar, once again, after about two weeks of a planet rotating to the right (hmmmm), to the red, black, white, and gold swastika, well-known as the symbol of the genocidal Nazi Party, that just happens to be in the good old Nazi Party colors of red, black, white, and gold.

And joyously posting about the sublime qualities of svastikas, of course. For some reason.

YOU GO, SVASTIKA-BOY!!!

GET DOWN WITH YOUR BAD-ASS NAZI-IMAGERY-LOVING SELF!!!

Bergen Belsen liberation


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 6:44 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

Obviously, Comrade "Green Circle-Shamrock-Blue Target-Hooked Fish", aka Svastika-Boy, i am referring to you having reverted your forum avatar, once again, after about two weeks of a planet rotating to the right (hmmmm), to the red, black, white, and gold swastika, well-known as the symbol of the genocidal Nazi Party, that just happens to be in the good old Nazi Party colors of red, black, white, and gold.

And joyously posting about the sublime qualities of svastikas, of course. For some reason.

YOU GO, SVASTIKA-BOY!!!

GET DOWN WITH YOUR BAD-ASS NAZI-IMAGERY-LOVING SELF!!!

The colours are sourced to the Indigenous tradition I was instructed in which were established before the ones you're suggesting.

 


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Set-Tetu-Ra
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10/03/2020 6:56 pm  

I didn't actually think there were still people ignorant enough to think "swastika = Nazi." And Naziism used red, white, and black, but not yellow for themselves. And I mean the American flag literally uses black, white, and red with another color (blue) as well, as just one example. Generally the Kolovrat / Swastika were symbols of the Circumpolar Stars and, later, the solar cycle. 

"The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me… There is a splendour in my name hidden and glorious, as the sun of midnight is ever the son."

Set = I, Was = Aiwass


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 6:59 pm  
Posted by: @xon

The colours are sourced to the Indigenous tradition I was instructed in

 

Aha; why did you earlier use a different version, that was a swastika, but at least not in the official Nazi party colors? Laying aside that you are probably lying about having been "instructed in" an "Indigenous tradition".

Why would you want to normalize, and glorify, this?

https://il2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/4218985/thumb/9.jpg?i10c=img.resize(height:160)

 


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 7:01 pm  

That's a connection you're making, not me.


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APOSTATES
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10/03/2020 7:02 pm  

Wow, @ignant, I don't know who @xon is and why you react so hard (capital letters) on his post but his (avatar?) design look's like Navajo one to me. Love, Light, Life and Liberty for Law.


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 7:06 pm  
Posted by: @set-tetu-ra

And Naziism used red, white, and black, but not yellow for themselves.

Nazi Party membership badge (hidden because i don't want anyone to have to look at it, unless they are an idiot inclined to dispute that the official colors of the Nazi party were red, black, white, and gold):

Spoiler
Nazi Party Badge
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Golden_Party_Badge.png

 

Posted by: @set-tetu-ra

I didn't actually think there were still people ignorant enough to think "swastika = Nazi."

You just can't even imagine how plumb ignant i get when i see a Confederate flag! I get even worse than swastikas get me.

FYI, calling me "ignorant" is kinda silly- "ignant" is the African-American Vernacular English (aka "Black English") term for what Standard English calls "ignorant".


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Set-Tetu-Ra
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10/03/2020 7:08 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @set-tetu-ra

And Naziism used red, white, and black, but not yellow for themselves.

Nazi Party membership badge:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Golden_Party_Badge.png

 

Posted by: @set-tetu-ra

I didn't actually think there were still people ignorant enough to think "swastika = Nazi."

You just can't even imagine how plumb ignant i get when i see a Confederate flag! I get even worse than swastikas get me.

FYI, calling me "ignorant" is kinda silly- "ignant" is the African-American Vernacular English (aka "Black English") term for what Standard English calls "ignorant".

I mean if you think the swastika was created and solely used by the Nazis youre ignorant, sorry. It's not complicated. 

Also since when is gold "yellow" and not "gold"?

ig·no·rant
/ˈiɡnərənt/
adjective
  1. lacking knowledge or awareness in general

"The other images group around me to support me: let all be worshipped, for they shall cluster to exalt me… There is a splendour in my name hidden and glorious, as the sun of midnight is ever the son."

Set = I, Was = Aiwass


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 7:23 pm  

Of course, any moron knows that it's not true that "the swastika was created and solely used by the Nazis".

Equally obviously, anyone with the emotional maturity of most 12 year olds knows that, in the early 21st century, any display or use of a swastika will be identified with Nazis, and will be seen as normalizing or indeed glorifying torture, ethnic and ideological persecution, and unparalleled genocide.

The swastika, post 1945, means something entirely different to what it might have meant at any point before the camps were liberated.

There is no excuse whatever for anyone to use a swastika in any context whatever.

There is no "innocent", or "spiritual" or "indigenous" use of the swastika that is acceptable.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-60f7ab623baa58f082baa61fb46a7125-c


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djedi
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10/03/2020 7:25 pm  

There's a rumor that in AC's annotated copy of Hitler Speaks he alleges the Nazi swastika was his (Crowley's) idea, pitched to Ludendorff in the twenties.

Of slightly less expedience to us is the fylfot cross as a G.'.D.'. admission badge.

image

As to Nazism, I just want freedom for Palestine. #woodendoors #freepalestine


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 7:29 pm  

There are innumerable examples of the swastika in many religious and cultural contexts from time immemorial.

But post 1945, swastikas mean one thing, and one thing only. Anyone who uses one today knows full well what they are playing with, and deserves all they get.

Anyone who wants to argue with this does not understand much about history, magick, talismans, or much else.

https://www.history.com/.image/c_fit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Ch_406%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_620/MTU5MTkxODAyNjQ4Mjc0NTgx/holocaust-concentration-camps-500634969.jpg

 


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 7:32 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

in the early 21st century, any display or use of a swastika will be identified with Nazis

The Nazi swastika, yes. Regarding other takes on the symbol, it appears that is a no. Most others can see the Indigenous roots or other attributes to different takes and make a distinction.

Posted by: @ignant666

There is no "innocent", or "spiritual" or "indigenous" use of the swastika that is acceptable.

Indigenous people are going to keep their culture and express it. They're not going to be repressed by this fascist opinion and intent


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djedi
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10/03/2020 7:43 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

deserves all they get.

image

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ignant666
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10/03/2020 7:45 pm  
Posted by: @xon

Indigenous people are going to keep their culture and express it. They're not going to be repressed by this fascist opinion and intent

Yes, that may well be.

There may well be "Indigenous people" foolish enough to identify with perpetrators of racist genocide, or foolish enough to just not care if that's how they're perceived, not recognizing that, as descendants of victims of genocide, it might behoove them to not display symbols that normalize, and justify, genocide.

All cultures adapt and change constantly; defenders of "pure" "old" cultures are almost invariably far right nougat-bars.

And, of course, you are not a member of any "Indigenous culture", but rather are a New Age neo-colonialist cultural appropriator of selected elements of someone else's culture, who just happens to think swastikas are super-cool, and worth defending to the death, for some reason.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Belzec_-_SS_staff_%281942%29.jpg/350px-Belzec_-_SS_staff_%281942%29.jpg

@djedi - You seem to be on some tangent about how Israel treating Palestinians badly has something to do with whether or not displaying racist hate symbols is OK? Huh? 

Have you ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"? Grow up.


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 7:47 pm  
Posted by: @nassah

Wow, @ignant, I don't know who @xon is and why you react so hard (capital letters) on his post but his (avatar?) design look's like Navajo one to me. Love, Light, Life and Liberty for Law.

Bigotry and racism appears to be ignant's motivations in part. Not sure he actually read the post. He's way off topic on his self-righteous crusade.

You're right @nassah. The design is along the Indigenous style.

It's not clear if @ignant is being genuine in his arguments. Month's ago before the avatar thing he started acting very hostile and making incorrect assumptions towards me. Since he's not getting the reaction he wants over time he's building up a resentment that's getting more explicit each time. Even reaching threats of violence to Indigenous people in general recently. Today he's screaming and acting out as as ad hominem machine on top of the other flaws(including derailing threads).


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 7:51 pm  

I ignore you whenever you don't fly the swastika, Swastika-Boy. Your inane New Age posts seldom are interesting enough to comment on, and only serve to make you look foolish.

Stop using the swastika avatar again, and i will go back to ignoring you again.

Until then:

https://cdn.britannica.com/36/69536-004-27F3EB27/Birkenau-extermination-camp-Poland-Oswiecim-September-13-1944.jpg


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 7:57 pm  
Posted by: @xon

Month's ago before the avatar thing he started acting very hostile and making incorrect assumptions towards me. Since he's not getting the reaction he wants over time he's building up a resentment that's getting more explicit each time. Even reaching threats of violence to Indigenous people in general recently. Today he's screaming and acting out as as ad hominem machine on top of the other flaws(including derailing threads).

Can you remind me, Swastika-Boy, exactly which one of us is the one who recently confessed to internet-stalking and attacks on the other one?

Help me out here, it wasn't me, so that means it was, um....


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 7:57 pm  

Exactly6

Posted by: @ignant666

Stop using the swastika avatar again, and i will go back to ignoring you again.

You're trying to control others through threats and intimidation. I'm Indigenous. It's my culture. It's outside your control and your worldview.

Your delusions about yourself and threats of violence aren't an immediate concern but, perhaps your online threats should be reported though. Mental health authorities should go to your house for a wellness check, at least.


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djedi
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10/03/2020 8:00 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

two wrongs don't make a right

But what if one of the wrongs didn't actually happen?


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 8:01 pm  
Posted by: @xon

Mental health authorities should go to your house for a wellness check, at least.

Posted by: @ignant666

Can you remind me, Swastika-Boy, exactly which one of us is the one who recently confessed to internet-stalking and attacks on the other one?

 


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 8:05 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

But what if one of the wrongs didn't actually happen?

You should be aware that this site is published from the UK, and that Holocaust denial may violate UK hate speech laws, although Brexit has gotten them out from under the EC on this matter, and may have made the UK safer for holocaust deniers.

You should also go [anally intercourse] yourself.


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 Anonymous
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10/03/2020 8:11 pm  

Madlad, maybe. You were on r/thelema. I wasn't looking for you, I noticed you in a thread. I decided to upvote a bot and downvote you to see how you'd react. That you got all twisted and flipped out over a down/upvote isn't my fault. You act like that up/down vote is going to eat you up for the rest of your life.

It's not as bad as your attempt to dox the other day.

I've learned a lot confronting your bigotry and need to control others and the techniques you use. Anyhow, it's time to get back to topic.


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djedi
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10/03/2020 8:18 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

speech laws

Now this here is a philosophical question, and I ain't one to cotton to no judicial threatenin'. (Though I do appreciate the irony of an anarchist hiding behind the police when free speech is on the line.) I's jus' wantin' to preclude any sympathies for the Israeli apartheid state from colorin' one's conversion from the more epistemologically sound position of holocaust-agnosticism.

We can say it's bad that the holocaust happened, but far worse is using it to justify one's political beliefs.

image

You liked
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ignant666
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10/03/2020 8:20 pm  
Posted by: @xon

You act like that up/down vote is going to eat you up for the rest of your life.

I had no idea you had done this until your recent confession, and still (being a geriatric Boomer) don't really get what your "experiment" involved. i can assure you i am not an iota bothered, but it certainly is evidence of some sort of unhinged obsession.

Posted by: @xon

It's not as bad as your attempt to dox the other day.

You should really seek mental health care as soon as possible, Comrade Swastika-Boy. I don't think i have recently attempted to "dox" anyone, or done anything that any not-insane person could construe that way.

Here, for Comrade Swastika-Boy, and Comrade Holocaust-Denying Would-Be Clever Intellectual, is a picture of what you (Comrade Swastika-Boy) are claiming the right to normalize and glorify, and you, Comrade Holocaust-Denying Would-Be Clever Intellectual, are pretending never happened:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Birkenau_Extermination_Camp_-_Oswiecim%2C_Poland_-_NARA_-_305910.jpg


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 8:24 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

I do appreciate the irony of an anarchist hiding behind the police when free speech is on the line.

If this were a US-based site, i would have just requested that you [painfully sodomize] yourself. I am a big fan of allowing any asshole to speak his, or her, or their, mind. There is no greater fan of the First Amendment than i.

But Paul can get in trouble for allowing Holocaust denial here. They got no First Amendment in the UK, son.

FYI, i think Israel is an quasi-theocratic apartheid state that treats Palestinians (and many Jews) horribly. Most of the pioneer Zionists who fought to create Israel would be appalled by what it has become. But that does not change the historical fact that Hitler killed millions of Jews.


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djedi
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10/03/2020 8:36 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I am a big fan of allowing any asshole

(Always with the hard feelings, you. Can't we ever just have fun?)

Posted by: @ignant666

But Paul can get in trouble for allowing Holocaust denial here.

I did not deny the holocaust, but Paul can delete whatever posts he likes with no protest from me. I am the last person to want the bobbies to roll down in their electric cars and blow their high-capacity assault whistles at anyone, least of all LAShTAL's esteemed owner.

Posted by: @ignant666

FYI, i think Israel is an quasi-theocratic apartheid state

That's all I wanted to know, hoss.


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 8:38 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

Always with the hard feelings, you.

Perhaps you have confused me with a nice person?


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 9:19 pm  

Comrade Swastika-Boy- On the remote chance that you possess some rudimentary level of emotional development beneath all the self-righteousness and huff, and are actually of some Native American (Canada being part of the Americas last time i checked) ancestry, or the more likely one that you are a New Ager who thinks Indians are really cool...

You would think it totally OK if i were to say use as an avatar a picture of US Army General Philip Sheridan, right?

He was a Civil War hero, who defeated Confederate armies at Shenandoah, and then burned the plantations and factories of the slaveholders.

I would do this to honor my White American heritage (ancestry i would be happy to prove, should anyone doubt that i am a Caucasian American whose ancestors fought for the Union in the Civil War).

If someone just happened to be offended because he is even more famous for saying "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" than he is for his Civil War victories, i could get self-righteous and butt-hurt about how folks were attacking my heritage and what-not.

Or i could choose to respond differently.


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Pertinax
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10/03/2020 10:16 pm  

For what it's worth, @ignant666, while I usually find you pretty erudite and your posts worth reading, I think you might have dropped the ball in this case.

The symbol Xon is using does in fact appear to be a Dakota tribe medicine wheel, as North Dakota 4th graders apparently know...

https://www.ndstudies.gov/gr4/american-indians-north-dakota/section-8-religion

While Xon does appear to be infantile in his apparent deliberate trolling of people, in this at least, the most you could accuse him of is cultural appropriation.

There is of course the problem that for many, the sun wheel is irredeemably tainted by its association with the Nazi's, and subsequent appropriation by white nationalists. But that's a slightly more convoluted topic than I am willing to get too deep into.

I currently reside in Japan, and around here you can find swastika's on temples, I don't think they will all be removed for political reasons, but then Japan is stubborn like that, something about retaining their own culture...

 

image

Anyway, I was following this thread because it concerned the HGA, the Solar centre of creation...


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 10:52 pm  
Posted by: @pertinax

There is of course the problem that for many, the sun wheel is irredeemably tainted by its association with the Nazi's, and subsequent appropriation by white nationalists.

In case you have not noticed, i am one of those "many".

BTW, he is not "xon" or "mal" anymore, he is "Green Circle-Shamrock-Blue Target-Hooked Fish", and we should treat that name with the respect it deserves.

I am aware of the claim that symbols similar to the one our Comrade uses are part of US Plains Indian culture. I, however, am not aware of any examples of any usage of this symbol before the 1970s. I would be very curious to see any evidence to the contrary, especially of usage in the 19th century (or earlier).

Regardless of whether or not this is an authentic part of the culture of any US Plains culture:

  1. Comrade Green Circle-Shamrock-Blue Target-Hooked Fish is not from North Dakota, but rather is a Canadian from Vancouver, where no Native tribe ever employed anything like the so-called "Medicine Wheel" in their art or culture (unless there has been some post-'70s use inspired by Caucasian "New Age" practices).
  2. Any use of the swastika in any context whatever is unacceptable, because it is a symbol of genocide, ethnic hatred, and terror.

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