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Was the HGA also the actual initiator in the Order in which AC started on his path as an initiate?  

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RuneLogIX
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10/03/2020 10:58 pm  

My contribution to this fine thread, this lovely example from Roman Spain:

Image

https://twitter.com/NExSpain/status/1234570479320682496

Force and Fire is not metaphorical. In Prophetes Veritas Venit.


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djedi
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10/03/2020 11:07 pm  

Posted by: @pertinax

I currently reside in Japan, and around here you can find swastika's

Japanese people love Nazis, brother.

image

They also love Aleister Crowley and the G.'.D.'.

image

That's supposed to be MacGregor Mathers on the right, and AC as an anime schoolgirl or something on the left.

Say, if you can translate ye olde Nipponese, have you ever thought about doing so for the Senji Ryakketsu?

Posted by: @ignant666

Green Circle-Shamrock-Blue Target-Hooked Fish

(I think the idea is that the emojis resemble the letters that spell XON, with the shamrock being X, the evil eye thing O, and the fishing pole N.)


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 11:26 pm  
Posted by: @djedi

Japanese people love Nazis, brother.

Maybe due to those whole "being an Axis nation", and "being Hitler's biggest ally", things?

To be fair, it's not just Japanese pop culture (and certain comrades here) that has a Nazi fetish.聽

I learned from a Haitian comrade that "Hitler" is a common first name among Haitian men of the "Boomer" generation (after hearing him speaking to his pal "Hitty" on the phone).


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dom
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10/03/2020 11:29 pm  

Israel and Palestine,聽 I can see where ex military-man Netanyahu is coming from.聽 He knows about the centuries of anti-semitic聽 state-encouraged persecution and pogroms in Russia and elsewhere. When Israel was formed as a haven by the West the Arab world instantly went ape-crazy. 聽 Why? 聽 Totally over the top. 聽 聽聽

@ignant666

I learned from a Haitian comrade that "Hitler" is a common first name among Haitian men of the "Boomer" generation (after hearing him speaking to his pal "Hitty" on the phone).

WTF?

That is one fucked up country but hey they were ruled by a murderous ex-Dr and Voodoo- god for decades.聽 That's another crazy story. 聽

Posted by: @djedi
Japanese people love Nazis, brother.

I think as Mishima says there is a history of brutality in Japan.聽 I would say that your statement is a crock-of-shit though. 聽


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ignant666
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10/03/2020 11:42 pm  

To take it to an even more bizarre level, my Haitian comrade was a literal Comrade, as in a big-C Communist (CP-USA, as i recall, or maybe RCP?).

And so was his pal "Hitty"/Hitler. Roll-call at those meetings must have been fun.


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dom
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10/03/2020 11:49 pm  

@ignant666

it doesn't surprise me in a state ruled by a voodoo-god.聽 I'm sure you know what I'm talking聽 about.聽


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Tiger
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11/03/2020 2:22 am  

Image result for japanese mass in front of swastika

It鈥檚 all on how it is appropriated and used(attributed) .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika


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djedi
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11/03/2020 3:11 am  
Posted by: @dom

brutality in Japan

Chill out, weab.

image

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dom
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11/03/2020 9:56 am  

@djedi

You made a very sweeping statement about a particular culture. 聽 That's cool, we all say stupid things now and again. 聽


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Michael Staley
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11/03/2020 1:07 pm  

I know that all conversations meander to some extent, but this one has gone way off-beam. Out of respect to wellreadwellbred, could we please return to the topic?


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wellreadwellbred
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12/03/2020 5:03 am  

As the subject matter for another thread, I suggest the swastika and its use in AC's Thelema.聽

Tiger's quote earlier in this thread from AC's THE BOOK OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD, covered by Aleister Crowley in his The Equinox Vol. I No. III, is very interesting, https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/was-the-hga-also-the-actual-initiator-in-the-order-in-which-ac-started-on-his-path-as-an-initiate/#post-104733 .

In said book pertaining to his rituals in Mexico 1900, AC mentions the knowledge and conversation of his HGA thus:

"THE OBLIGATION

[To be most solemnly accepted by him who would attain unto the knowledge and conversation of his Holy Genius.]":

"I will to the utmost endeavour lead a pure and an unselfish life: not revealing to any other person the mysteries which shall herein be revealed unto me: that I will obey the dictates of my Higher Soul [...] I furthermore most solemnly promise and swear that with the Divine Permission I will from this day apply myself constantly unto the Great Work: that is, so to purify and exalt my spiritual nature, that with the Aid Divine, I may at length attain to be more than human; ...".聽

The above obligation is a clarifying precursor to the following statements in AC's The Book of the Law: "... Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.", "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.", with said 'thou'聽referring to said "dictates of my Higher Soul".

This "my Higher Soul" (synonyme for my Holy Guardian Angel), is mentioned thus within AC's THE BOOK OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD:

"THE CHANT.

Hear, O Amoun! Look with favour on me, Thy Neophyte, now kneeling in Thy presence! Grant that the Music of Thy Mighty Name Iota Alpha Omega , the signs of Light, the Symbol of the Cross, the woven paces of the mystic 3, may be as a spell and a charm and a working of Magic Art, to draw down my Higher Soul to dwell within my heart, that the Great and Terrible Angel who is my Higher Genius may abide in my own Kether unto the Accomplishing of the Great Work and the Glory of Thine Ineffable Name, AMOUN."

Above chant, is to be chanted during the magical dance within a Ritual of Self-Initiation which AC devised in Mexico 1900:聽

"I devised a Ritual of Self-Initiation (see The Equinox, vol. I, no. III, p.269), the essential feature of which is the working up of spiritual enthusiasm by means of a 鈥媉magical dance. This dance contained the secret gestures of my grade, combined with the corresponding words."(Source: Part Two, The mystical adventure, chapter 23, inConfessions of Aleister Crowley.)


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Shiva
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12/03/2020 8:57 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

"THE OBLIGATION

[To be most solemnly accepted by him who would attain unto the knowledge and conversation of his Holy Genius.]":

1900. Okay, that's a prime quote for determining any earlier date where HGA is mentioned. Personally, I don't know of one.

I have always found AC's descriptions of the HGA to be of interest. After all, he ranged from Aiwass the Sumerian Demon-God, a man "just like myself," an Ipsissimus, Adonai, to "My Holy Guardian Angel."

Then he tells us it is "more convenient" to place these concepts outside (magic) than inside (mysticism), because its easier to control your demons out there. He admits that HGA is a concept that no one will, take seriously and that we go about invoking an entity that we know does not exist.

I tried to summarize various paraphrases as briefly as possible, in order to condense the the varieties into one Gordian knot. Did anyone notice a discrepancy or two?聽聽 ... What? More than two? I would like to dissect each one separately, but certainly not now a 2:00 in the morning.

It has been my fortune to experience the HGA at several levels. At each level, there there is a common core, but different "levels" can produce varying scenarios. The common core is universal. It's like a badge. It's not Tao, because Tao bears no symbols or a badge, It's not Hadit, because he's omnipresent, but can never be known (primal cause).

Anyway,the timeline of the use of the term HGA for AC, and GD as well, lays a foundation for possibly accurate analysis, and potentially a revelatoion of its nature and activities in the world of men.


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饾搷岽坚憥
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12/03/2020 10:16 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

As the subject matter for another thread, I suggest the swastika and its use in AC's Thelema.聽

Excellent idea. 😎聽

鈾... don't you forget about me ... 鈾


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elitemachinery
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12/03/2020 10:55 am  
Posted by: @shiva

It has been my fortune to experience the HGA at several levels. At each level, there there is a common core, but different "levels" can produce varying scenarios. The common core is universal. It's like a badge. It's not Tao, because Tao bears no symbols or a badge, It's not Hadit, because he's omnipresent, but can never be known (primal cause).

Anyway,the timeline of the use of the term HGA for AC, and GD as well, lays a foundation for possibly accurate analysis, and potentially a revelatoion of its nature and activities in the world of men.

I like the term Holy Guardian Angel because it makes it more accessible and easier to describe to people because the term Guardian Angel is common in some religions.

I first heard the word "Guardian Angel" when I was about 4 years old. I woke up in the passenger seat on my mom's car parked along the freeway. My mom said she had fallen asleep at the wheel and that her Guardian Angel had protected us. I assume she got this from Catholic school.

My friend and mentor Edwin Steinbrecher made it his life's mission to introduce the world to their HGA. He came up with a new name for them calling them "Inner Guides" and invented/discovered a meditation process where ANYONE (not just magicians of high lofty status who did the work) could meet and converse with this being. He initiated thousands of people into the technique. He was very precise in his work. People often cried when coming into contact with the HGA. The feeling of unconditional love was the test of the true Inner Guide or HGA.

While Edwin did not assume that this technique would go viral he did wish that every man and woman know that they at least had an HGA and that he was there if and when he was needed and there to protect them and guide them.

As per Edwin's teachings, the HGA is ALWAYS a male human figure who has lived before. The figure appears in human form in meditation. The HGA is a great teacher in that he doesn't volunteer a lot of information and often answers questions with questions.

Edwin was very adamant that the HGA played by a certain set of rules. For example, the HGA are here to protect you and keep you alive and guide you on your path, but they cannot interfere unless your life is in danger. There are many examples of people in danger who have heard a voice say "STOP" or "TURN LEFT" or "WAKE UP" or "HE'S GOT A GUN."

These are examples of the HGA stepping in because your life was in imminent danger.

Aleister was a pioneer in matters with the HGA and his teachings laid the groundwork for Edwin's work. But AC was unclear about a lot of things, probably because he was one of the first to use these techniques and there was not a lot of data to work with.

Edwin wrote five editions of The Inner Guide Meditation and he and his team initiated easily over 10,000 people into the technique. He also held weekly meditation meetings at D.O.M.E. and taught others including myself how to initiate people into the meditation.

This provided a lot of experience and data for Edwin to update his book and because of this he was very clear about how things worked.

Edwin also talked a lot about false guides or ego guides. These are constructs of the ego that arise when someone is stubborn to let go and let the real HGA reveal himself. These false guides often flatter the ego and ramble on with interesting information and will participate in channeling and other things. True HGA's don't do this.

My experience has been at times very profound. When the HGA is present there is a feeling of acceptance that your life and where you are everything that has transpired is perfect. The HGA loves and accepts you unconditionally and allows for you to accept yourself the same.

I don't try to contact my HGA much, but I trust that he is there. There have been times when I have felt his presence and knew that it was important to contact him and be aware. I regularly listen to my dreams for hints or info he may slide my way that I need to be aware of, and I try to take note when something drops in my lap like a gift from heaven. Or perhaps a chance meeting with a person you should know. The HGA is not allowed to interfere but can "guide" you when asked or allowed to by your receptivity. You may get a hunch to go to a different store to shop or drive a different way home. When you do you meet your future wife or business partner, etc. This is the HGA gently guiding you. If you are receptive to this guidance your life will be magick.

The HGA knows everything about you. He can see all your past lives and current issues. He knows us better than we do. But he cannot interfere. And can only help and offer advice when asked.

Children often interact and speak with their HGA's. Theyare not just imaginary friends. Once the ego is fully formed at around age 7 this stops.

One example of the HGA is at work is when one get a quick tingling rush up the spine. This is the HGA giving one a kundalini jolt or tingle as if to say "yes, you're onto to something..continue in this direction!"

Another is when you feel strong heat on the back of your neck. This is a warning as if to say "Go back, be careful.." (or if it's really hot) "Get the hell out of here!"

The last resort for one who is not heeding any warnings is to call out and say "STOP" "WAKE UP" "TURN LEFT" and so on.

The HGA is there and available to guide and teach and protect us. Everyone has an HGA and ANYONE can get in touch through prayer, meditation, Magick, listening to dreams, taking long walks, knitting, or gardening.

Anything one does can participate fully, and where one feels the ego dissolve, allows for the magick and guidance of the HGA.

Musicians who say the song they wrote seem to "come from the ether" is an example of this.

The HGA's are always inspiring.

Additionally, although the Book of the Law is very interesting and is considered a Holy Book. Aiwass is clearly NOT AC's HGA. Aiwass has all the characteristics of a false guide/ego construct. He gives lots of interesting information but you feel no love and compassion. He doesn't wait to asked and fills your head with lots of information that your ego likes to hear. Including using words like "choson one."

Seth is a classic example of a false guide. False guides never give advice to other people. They are here to teach YOU only.


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ignant666
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12/03/2020 12:13 pm  
Posted by: @xon

Excellent idea. [emoji]

Not surprised you want a thread to discuss how cool swastikas are.

Here is what your avatar at least normalizes, and perhaps seeks to glorify.

image

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hadgigegenraum
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12/03/2020 2:04 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666
Posted by: @xon

The colours are sourced to the Indigenous tradition I was instructed in

Aha; why did you earlier use a different version, that was a swastika, but at least not in the official Nazi party colors? Laying aside that you are probably lying about having been "instructed in" an "Indigenous tradition".

Why would you want to normalize, and glorify, this?

https://il2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/4218985/thumb/9.jpg?i10c=img.resize(height:160)

The photo could well be from present day Palestine, forced upon the native people by the occupying forces whom must not be named....

Now why are hexagrams called hexes, certainly not to curse the neighbors?

The first Christian heretic Marcion and compiler of a New Testament, did not equate the 'god' of the Old Testament as having anything to do with the God of Love of Jesus's true Father. Marion was unfortunately murdered for rejecting the murderous Old Testament 'god'.聽

Yes all sorts of symbols can be used to appease the local tribal god thirsty for blood

I think it best to condemn the Nazi SS, the Soviet Checka and the British/Venetian Round Tables that funded their respective leaderships equally, for the entire world has many marks of being a concentration camp by complexes of the same forces today.

Now as concerns the topic at hand, the Holy Guardian Angel, condemnation of the murder machines, whatever their stripe, is probably relevant towards preparing one's higher sensitivities to come through, as long as the trance of sorrow is actually universal.


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Shiva
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12/03/2020 6:20 pm  
Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

Now why are hexagrams called hexes, certainly not to curse the neighbors?

Heagrams were commonly painted on barns in the USA ... to ward off evil. Pennsylvania Dutch, I think ... not Jews. The so-called Star of David was on;y adopted by the Jews a couple centuries ago, or so. It was not their ancient symbol.

But it (hexa) represents to us me, the union of the lower triangular dork and the higher guy with wings. It is the de facto symbol of Tiphareth, the sixth sphere.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

the entire world has many marks of being a concentration camp by complexes of the same forces today.

Prison Planet. Now our HGA thread turns toward The Black Lodge. Note: The Angel and the Shadow arise (in consciousness) together.


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The HGA of a Duck
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12/03/2020 6:48 pm  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

The Inner Guide Meditation [by Edwin Steinbrecher]

This book comes up in ads a lot when I'm browsing the web. It looked interesting but now that you've mentioned it it seems like it might be important. I'll add it to my reading list.

Posted by: @shiva

he ranged from Aiwass the Sumerian Demon-God, a man "just like myself," an Ipsissimus, Adonai, to "My Holy Guardian Angel."

Posted by: @elitemachinery

As per Edwin's teachings, the HGA is ALWAYS a male human figure who has lived before.

Bizarrely enough, this reminds me a bit of Mormon theology about God. Sometimes he is described as having been a normal man once who became God and now lives on his own planet at the centre of the Galaxy (yes, I know, its like bad sci-fi). The angel "Moroni" may have been Joseph Smith's HGA, and so the Mormon Aiwass. Mormonism also has its own "Stele of Revealing":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Hypocephalus


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ignant666
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12/03/2020 7:21 pm  

Mark Twain on Smith's "stele":

Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything, but for me when a man tells me that he has seen the engravings which are upon the plates and not only that, but an angel was there at the time and saw them see him and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction no matter whether I have ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel or his nationality either. [...]

And when I am far on the road to conviction and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too, and not only seen those plates, but hefted them, I am convinced. [...]

From Roughing It, 1872.


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The HGA of a Duck
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12/03/2020 8:09 pm  

@ignant666

The "Golden Plates" would be more like the Liber AL of Mormonism (a supernatural entity dictating a holy book and digging up some magic golden engravings might have about the same level of believability 🙂 ). The "stele" I mentioned is an Egyptian papyrus that Smith bought from a travelling exhibition. I find it amusing that he interpreted it to tell the story that he wanted, some might say Crowley pulled the same trick a few decades later.


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ignant666
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12/03/2020 8:24 pm  

We should found society upon a caste of "men of earth", sons of the soil, sturdy, stubborn, sensual, and stupid, unemasculated by ethical or intellectual education, but guided in their evolution by the intelligent governing classes toward an ideal of pure animal perfection. In such a substratum variation will produce sporadic individuals of a higher type. History affords innumerable examples of the lofty intelligence and the noblest characters shooting up from the grossest stock. Keats, Burns, Sixtus the Fifth, Lincoln, Boehme, Faraday, Joseph Smith, Whitman, Renan, Arkwright, Watts, Carlyle, Rodin, and innumerable other men of the highest genius came of peasant parentage. Few indeed of the first class have been born of intellectually developed families. (Hag, p. 731, emphasis added)


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Shiva
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12/03/2020 8:47 pm  
Posted by: @duck

The "Golden Plates" would be more like the Liber AL of Mormonism

Yes. Of course. I thought the plates were silver, but I'm not sure about that. Every religion or spritual philosophy has to have three gunas ...

1. A sacred document
2. Enlightened leadership
3. A binding force

Frater Aquarius identified those for us : "The only things I believe in are ...

1. The Book of the Law
2. The secret Chiefs
3. The Attractive principle

Note; the Koran was dictated by Gabriel to Muhammad.

Almost everybody's got a Sacred Doc, and (interesting) an Angel in some form is usually involved. there's been a whole lotta auto-ritin' going on.


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wellreadwellbred
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12/03/2020 9:03 pm  

Shiva: "I have always found AC's descriptions of the HGA to be of interest. After all, he ranged from Aiwass the Sumerian Demon-God, a man "just like myself," an Ipsissimus, Adonai, to "My Holy Guardian Angel."

Then he tells us it is "more convenient" to place these concepts outside (magic) than inside (mysticism), because its easier to control your demons out there."

(Chant to be chanted during the magical dance within a Ritual of Self-Initiation which AC devised in Mexico 1900:)

"THE CHANT.

Hear, O Amoun! Look with favour on me, Thy Neophyte, now kneeling in Thy presence! Grant that the Music of Thy Mighty Name Iota Alpha Omega , the signs of Light, the Symbol of the Cross, the woven paces of the mystic 3, may be as a spell and a charm and a working of Magic Art, to draw down my Higher Soul to dwell within my heart, that the Great and Terrible Angel who is my Higher Genius may abide in my own Kether unto the Accomplishing of the Great Work and the Glory of Thine Ineffable Name, AMOUN." (Source: https://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/iii/eqi03010n - - - The Equinox Vol. I No. III, THE BOOK OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD.)

"Chapter II [...] 4. The circumference of Nuit touches Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Kether ...". (Source: https://hermetic.com/legis/old-comment/index 聽- - - The Old Comment to AL (Liber Legis) The Book of the Law by Aleister Crowley.)

Does Aleister Crowley in 1900 devising a Ritual of Self-Initiation to "... be as a spell and a charm and a working of Magic Art, [...] that [...] my Higher Genius may abide in my own Kether unto the Accomplishing of the Great Work ..." , and in his Old Comment to The Book of the Law equating Kether with Ra-Hoor-Khuit, respresent an approach to Kether that is magic, or mystic, or both magic and mystic?

And a follow up question: Does AC's in 1900 writing a spell that "my Higher Genius may abide in my own Kether", indicate that he knew about the so-called "crown chakra" already in 1900, before he visited India for the first time?

(I ask as AC's said reference to "in my own Kether", seems to be to his own head, and the said so-called "crown chakra", is supposedly located on the crown of the head.)


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elitemachinery
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13/03/2020 8:44 am  
Posted by: @elitemachinery

"choson one."

Seth is a classic example of a false guide. False guides never give advice to other people. They are here to teach YOU only.

spelled "chosen one"

also in my haste i said it wrong. should read:

One's personal HGA never gives advice to other people. They are here to teach YOU only.

rant over and out/


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wellreadwellbred
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13/03/2020 1:44 pm  

dom: "2012 provided an evolutionary shift? Did it?聽 Could you explain in layman's terms what this "shift" was and how it affected the average individual without recourse to anything to do with Thelema,Crowley or Horus?" (Source: The Inauguration of Aleister Crowley鈥檚 New Aeon of Horus - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/the-inauguration-of-aleister-crowleys-new-aeon-of-horus/#post-101414 聽)

RTC: "The official start date is debatable, and incidental. As for the shift itself [...] the phallocentric Osiris Current, Kether >>> Chokmah, has been replaced by the gender-neutral Horus flow, from Kether >>> Tiphareth." (The Inauguration of Aleister Crowley鈥檚 New Aeon of Horus - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/the-inauguration-of-aleister-crowleys-new-aeon-of-horus/#post-101426 )

("The least abject asset in the intellectual bankruptcy of European thought is the Hebrew Qabalah. Properly understood, it is a system of symbolism indefinitely elastic, assuming no axioms, postulating no principles, asserting no theorems, and therefore adaptable, if managed adroitly, to describe any conceivable doctrine. It has been my continual study since 1898, ...". (Source: Magick Without Tears, by Aleister Crowley, Chapter XXXV: The Tao (2) - - - http://bibliotecapleyades.lege.net/crowley/mwt/mwt_35.htm ))

("... the [...] Holy Guardian Angel, of every individual sits in Tiparteh; referring again to Tipareth as the mirror of Kether 鈥 the Divine Self."聽(Source: Page 66 and 67,聽Self-Initiation Into the Golden Dawn Tradition: A Complete Curriculum of Study for Both the Solitary Magician and the Working Magical Group, by Chic Cicero, and Sandra Tabatha Cicero, Llewellyn Publications, 2003.)

Aleister Crowley introduced the current " from Kether >>> Tiphareth", already in 1900 [the Qabalah had been his continual study since 1898, according to the quote from his book Magick Without Tears, mentioned above], when he devised a Ritual of Self-Initiation to make "my Higher Genius [= The Holy Guardian Angel, which is located in Tipareth of every individual, according to the source Self-Initiation Into the Golden Dawn Tradition, mentioned above] may abide in my own Kether unto the Accomplishing of the Great Work ...". (AC was a member of the said Golden Dawn, since his initiation into it in 1898.)

This deliberate shift to, from Kether to Tiphareth, devised by Aleister Crowley in 1900, is also reflected in how he devised his later The Book of the law, which is constructed around his idea of the conjunction of two opposing infinites known within the Western Occult Tradition as the macrocosm and microcosm vision of cosmos where the part (microcosm) reflects the whole (macrocosm) and vice versa resulting in the Holy Guardian Angel. And he superimposed said idea over names or terms derived from his deliberate cultural appropriation of a funerary artefact from the ancient Egypt:

"Nuit is Infinite Extension; Hadit Infinite Contraction. [...] they are the two opposing Infinites whose interplay gives Finity." [...] ", their conjunction results in [...] Adonai[(*)], the Holy Guardian Angel[(*)]. Also Hoor ... [...] The circumference of Nuit touches Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Kether". (Source: The Old Comment - - - http://www.oto-hu.org/documents/essay/english/The_Old_Comment_to_Liber_AL_vel_Legis.html )

"BOTL (= Book of the Law), I,49: "... Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating."

( Source for more on AC's modern quasi-Egyptian cultural appropriation of said funerary artefact from the ancient Egypt: 'My quotes from, & comment to, download Timothy Moss: 鈥淐ase of the Cairo Working"' - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/paged/2/#post-92615 )


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Shiva
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13/03/2020 5:21 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

also reflected in how he devised his later The Book of the law, which is constructed around his idea

The words "devised" and "constructed" indicate that you subscribe to the idea that Crowley "made it all up," as opposed to "receiving it." Is this the case?


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Jamie J Barter
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13/03/2020 11:14 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

The words "devised" and "constructed" indicate that you subscribe to the idea that Crowley "made it all up," as opposed to "receiving it." Is this the case?

I am certain that wrwb has admitted as much to this indication & his "subscription" in a previous thread on LAShTAL (somewhere).聽 Although, has never fully gone into his own reasons for why this is or/nor stated when, where & under what circumstances it was so '"devised" and "constructed".'

Maybe he/ you (wrwb) could now helpfully add this metaphorical log to the blaze?

N Joy


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Shiva
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14/03/2020 1:05 am  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

wrwb has admitted as much to this indication & his "subscription" in a previous thread on LAShTAL (somewhere).聽 Although, has never fully gone into his own reasons for why this is or/nor stated when, where & under what circumstances it was so '"devised" and "constructed".'

Bred generally quotes long quotes, ask questions about his quotes, and has never been known to state his own opinion about anything. I admit to catching a glipse of the shadow you are mentioning, but Bred's lingo Engish is secondary, so we'll have to call the witness/defendart/poster to the stand, where he sits, and cause him to betray his inclinations under oath.

Bail-iff, call Mr Bred to the stand, so he can sit.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Maybe he/ you (wrwb) could now helpfully add this metaphorical log to the blaze?

N Joy

Thank you, Bail-iff Joy. You may be seated while we await the excuses.


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wellreadwellbred
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22/03/2020 2:46 pm  

Shiva: "The words "devised" and "constructed" indicate that you subscribe to the idea that Crowley "made it all up," as opposed to "receiving it." Is this the case?"

Earlier in this thread I have pointed out that Aleister Crowley already in 1900 devised a ritual of self initiation. And I point out that the names/figures/concepts used by Aleister Crowley in his The Book of the Law, were used by him in poems written by him years before he wrote that poetic book:

"Here lies Horus dead, There Isis slain. We have no leader left." (Source: The Fatal Force written in 1899, contained in Collected Works -VOLUME I聽- - -聽 https://hermetic.com/crowley/collected-works/i/the-fatal-force 聽)

"Hail! Hail to Thee, Lord of us, Horus!聽
All hail to the warrior name!
Thy chariots shall drive them before us,
Thy sword sweep them forth as a flame.
Rise! Move! and descend! I behold Thee,
Heaven cloven of fieriest bars,
Armed Light; and they follow and fold Thee,
Thine armies of terrible stars.
The Powers of Mars!" (Source: written in 1900, contained in Collected Works -VOLUME I - - - https://hermetic.com/crowley/collected-works/i/carmen-saeculare ).

"I hardly dare hope the sun. I seek the darkness, not the light. O Lord Harpocrates [which the 'Aiwass' in his later The Book of the Law is "the minister of"], be still The moveless centre of my will. [...] O Nuit, the starry one arise, And set thy starlight in my skies! In darkness, in the void abyss, I grope with vain despairing arms. The silence as a serpent is, The rustle of the world alarms. O Horus, Light in Darkness, bless My failure with thine own success!"聽(Source: The Soul of Osiris. A History, published in 1901 - - -聽 https://www.100thmonkeypress.com/biblio/acrowley/books/soul_of_osiris_1901/soul_of_osiris_text.pdf 聽)

My hypothesis is that the funerary artefact from the ancient Egypt used by Aleister Crowley in creating his Thelema, functioned as an inspiration and a stepping stone in said creation. As indicated by the following written by Aleister Crowley within his abandoned 1907 galleys for his collected works, with respect to his The Book of the Law:聽

"[We are indebted to the kindness of Brugsch Bey and M. for the above translation of the stele whose discovery led to the creation of the ritual by which the author of Liber L., was invoked.]"聽, that is:

"... the stele whose discovery led to the creation of [...] Liber L. [= The Book of the Law]".

In other words, my hypothesis is that it was his discovery of said funerary artefact from the ancient Egypt, which led to, or inspired, his creation of his said The Book of the Law.


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ignant666
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22/03/2020 3:46 pm  

There is no doubt that AL caters very much to all AC's personal predilections, and echoes many themes in his prior work, and that if he were fabricating a prophecy of a new religion with him as prophet, that it would come out a lot like AL. His claim that, as a good Buddhist, he was repulsed by its contents is obvious nonsense.

But all your quoted examples of his prior work are the typical Swinburne-imitating poetry that he churned out with so little success in so many books for so many years.

AL contains bits and pieces of this, but also many passages that resemble nothing else in his work. It is closer to TS Eliot, or Pound, than it is to anything else Crowley ever produced. It is distinctly modernist despite its sometimes stilted Bible-speak diction.

It comes from somewhere else than the rest of his work. i don't think it was dictated to him by a praeterhuman intelligence alone in a room (or how could Rose have added things?), but "automatic writing" seems more plausible than conscious fabrication. If Crowley could have produced more work like AL, he would have.

Either way, we are left with a text. Barthes (one of those post-modernists some are terrified by) talks about "the death of the author principle" and reading texts as a creative act, divorced from any idea of what the author intended. This might be a useful approach to reading AL.


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Shiva
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22/03/2020 4:40 pm  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

Aleister Crowley already in 1900 devised a ritual of self initiation. And I point out that the names/figures/concepts used by Aleister Crowley in his The Book of the Law, were used by him in poems written by him years before he wrote that poetic book:

This is true. By 1904, AC was already fully-primed to deliver a synopsis of self-initiation, anti-Christianity, Nietzscheisms, and loose men.

We have already discussed (all over the place) how "channeling" or "auto-scripting" involves tapping into a more expanded state (whether of oneself or another entity) from which a message will come. As the message comes, the "stuff" already in the vehicle's mind (conscious or subconscious) defines the limit of what can be delivered.

The question is NOT what I have just described. The question is ...

Did AC sit down and consciously "make L/AL up," or did he in fact just "tune in and drop out" so that the "93 current" could run through him, flushing out images of The Beast, The One who will follow, The Scarlet Woman, Ank-af-na-Khonsu, and the "low men" who are to be wiped out in a holy war.

Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

In other words, my hypothesis is that it was his discovery of said funerary artefact from the ancient Egypt, which led to, or inspired, his creation of his said The Book of the Law.

Yes, that artifact certainly played a pivotal role in the play. Do you think he "made up" Thelema and AL? Or did he simply get a "holy moment" wherein all the pieces to the bigger puzzle coalesced into an "Aha!" ?

Posted by: @ignant666

"automatic writing" seems more plausible than conscious fabrication.

I would subscribe to that notion. I would do so because I have a bit of personal experience in these matters, and to assert that he "consciously made it all up" tells me that the asserter has no personal experience of their ownin "channeling" or "auto-writmanship."

Posted by: @ignant666

This might be a useful approach to reading AL.

But we (anyone) only has one chance to assume a proper reading perspective before destroying the book. If your suggested approach is to be applied, I'll have to order another book.


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Jamie J Barter
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23/03/2020 1:14 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

It [The Book of the Law] comes from somewhere else than the rest of his work. i don't think it was dictated to him by a praeterhuman intelligence alone in a room (or how could Rose have added things?), but "automatic writing" seems more plausible than conscious fabrication. If Crowley could have produced more work like AL, he would have.

Do you agree this act of "automatic writing" took place over a three day period between the hours of noon and one p.m. on these consecutive days?聽 And if not, then over what timescale?

N Joy


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ignant666
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23/03/2020 1:23 am  

I don't see why the three days on the honeymoon part isn't likely to be true, as to the exact times, maybe.

AC isn't being exactly truthful about various details in my opinion, but i don't think he made the whole thing up, because he would have made up something more grandiose.


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kidneyhawk
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23/03/2020 2:12 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

i don't think it was dictated to him by a praeterhuman intelligence alone in a room (or how could Rose have added things?), but "automatic writing" seems more plausible than conscious fabrication. If Crowley could have produced more work like AL, he would have.

The entirety of your above post is really excellent and a refreshing regard for AL in context of literary merit (something Crowley decried as yet more "proof" that he couldn't have authored it...he was just too good of a writer to pen such a literary abomination!).

Would you give an example of how you feel AL is "closer to Elliot or Pound?" My inquiry is not a challenge. I would very much like to hear an elaboration on this theme. Crowley is sometimes regarded as the first "Contactee" of the New Aeon ala his portrait of "LAM." You seem to be expressing Crowley as harbinger of modern literature. I find this very intriguing-esp. as he seems to spend his lifetime clinging to the classical modes and means. Despite Wilson casting Joyce in a magical adventure with AC, I tend to think Crowley would have found his work reprehensible (either that or he would have despised it in jealousy as he did with Yeats).

I wish to add one more point: your quote above pits automatic writing against against conscious fabrication. I don't think we are at place of "either/or" here. It's my present view that AL contains BOTH.聽

And this does not diminish it's literary or philosophical value one iota.


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wellreadwellbred
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25/03/2020 7:15 pm  

ignant666: "I don't see why the three days on the honeymoon part isn't likely to be true, as to the exact times, maybe.

AC isn't being exactly truthful about various details in my opinion, but i don't think he made the whole thing up, because he would have made up something more grandiose."

AC's story about the origins of his The Book of the Law during his honeymoon in Egypt is already sufficiently grandiose:聽

Whit him authoring said book containing the聽sacrilege (etymology Latin sacrilegium, the robbing of a temple, the stealing of sacred things) of the grave of one ancient Egyptian named 聽Ankh-af-na-khonsu. An excessive and聽grandiose offence which would have been punishable by torturous methods of execution, and desctruction of Aleister Crowley's body by fire, in ancient Egypt. (I provide more about said sacrilege in the thread titled My quotes from, & comment to, download Timothy Moss: 鈥淐ase of the Cairo Working" - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/thelema/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/ )

Despite his ignorance about ancient Egypt, AC would at least have been aware of the grandiose 'poetic correspondence' of him during his honeymoon in Egypt to celebrate his union and marriage with his wife, "receiving" a book celebrating the continuous hieros gamos or 鈥渉oly marriage鈥 of Nuit and Hadit.聽


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wellreadwellbred
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25/03/2020 8:31 pm  

ignant666: "AL聽contains bits and pieces of this, but also many passages that resemble nothing else in his work. It is closer to TS Eliot, or Pound, than it is to anything else Crowley ever produced. It is distinctly modernist despite its sometimes stilted Bible-speak diction.

It comes from somewhere else than the rest of his work. i don't think it was dictated to him by a praeterhuman intelligence alone in a room (or how could Rose have added things?), but "automatic writing" seems more plausible than conscious fabrication. If Crowley could have produced more work like聽AL, he would have."

Richard Kaczynski's does on page 172 in his 2010 published book Perdurabo, The Life of Aleister Crowley, Revised and Expanded Edition, mention the "... series of 鈥淗oly Books鈥 that Crowley claimed were dictated by his holy guardian angel, Aiwass.鈥.

Aleister Crowley's holy guardian angel, Aiwass, dictating to him all said "Holy Books" including his The Book of the Law, provides us with documentation, demonstrating the style, rhyme, and metric scheme used by AC in taking down what said angel said during dictating said texts to him.聽

Jamie J Barter: "Do you agree this act of "automatic writing" took place over a three day period between the hours of noon and one p.m. on these consecutive days?聽 And if not, then over what timescale?"

Shiva, you who have personal聽 experience with automatic writing, can automatic writing take place over a three day period between the hours of noon and one p.m. on these consecutive days???


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ignant666
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25/03/2020 8:34 pm  

Yes, but the other "Holy Books" are clearly the work of Aleister Crowley. They are exactly what i am talking about, when i say he never produced anything else like AL.

If he could have made them like AL, he would have. He tried, and failed.


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wellreadwellbred
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25/03/2020 9:32 pm  

ignant666: "If he聽could聽have made them [= the other "Holy Books"] like聽AL, he would have. He tried, and failed."

No, this is not the case according to this quote from page 138 in Tobias Churton's book Aleister Crowley: The Biography: Spiritual Revolutionary, Romantic Explorer, Occult Master - and Spy, published 2011 by Watkins publishing: "... VVVVV dictated the 'Holy Books' to Frater Perdurabo, beginning in the October of 1907. The Will came through the Master; he was the scribe."


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ignant666
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25/03/2020 9:44 pm  

Yeah, well, whatever. The other "Holy Books" are nothing like AL, though they try to be.

Crowley was a prolific and compulsive liar, and "VVVVV" ain't "Aiwass".


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wellreadwellbred
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25/03/2020 9:46 pm  

I know only of claims with respect to the supposedly unique style of AC's The Book of the Law compared to other books supposedly received by him, and I know of no example of a detailed and thorough analysis in support of said claims.聽


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ignant666
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25/03/2020 9:53 pm  

OK. Someone else may well think something else; of no concern to me.

Certainly i have no plans to prepare "a detailed and thorough analysis in support of [my] claims". I'd read one though. It would be an excellent PhD topic for any aspiring Esoteric Studies grad students.


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wellreadwellbred
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26/03/2020 12:32 am  

ignant666: "Yeah, well, whatever. The other "Holy Books" are nothing likeAL, though they try to be."

Your "they try to be" claim, is of little or no practical value, with respect to AC stating "This document (a fragment 鈥 2 "Aiers" of 30) is interesting as being written by the same hand as Liber L. One may assume the constants as the contribution of the author; the differences as due to inspiration alone." And said statement is provided together with a presentation of said Liber L. [= AC's The Book the Law] as "Liber L. Vel Legis Given from the Mouth of Aiwass to the Ear of the Beast on April 8, 9, and 10, 1904. [...] a highly interesting example of genuine automatic writing." And "... Aiwass, the author of Liber L.". (Source: Unpublished Appendix for third volume of The Collected Works of Aleister Crowley, released in 1907)

That is, AC is already in 1907 presenting the constants, or similarities, between what later became the two most important books within his Thelema (The Book of the Law, and The Vision and the Voice, as described by him in his Confessions, chapter 66), as the contribution of their author, and the differences between said two books as "due to inspiration alone."


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hadgigegenraum
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26/03/2020 1:20 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

There is no doubt that AL caters very much to all AC's personal predilections, and echoes many themes in his prior work, and that if he were fabricating a prophecy of a new religion with him as prophet, that it would come out a lot like AL. His claim that, as a good Buddhist, he was repulsed by its contents is obvious nonsense.

But all your quoted examples of his prior work are the typical Swinburne-imitating poetry that he churned out with so little success in so many books for so many years.

AL contains bits and pieces of this, but also many passages that resemble nothing else in his work. It is closer to TS Eliot, or Pound, than it is to anything else Crowley ever produced. It is distinctly modernist despite its sometimes stilted Bible-speak diction.

It comes from somewhere else than the rest of his work. i don't think it was dictated to him by a praeterhuman intelligence alone in a room (or how could Rose have added things?), but "automatic writing" seems more plausible than conscious fabrication. If Crowley could have produced more work like AL, he would have.

Either way, we are left with a text. Barthes (one of those post-modernists some are terrified by) talks about "the death of the author principle" and reading texts as a creative act, divorced from any idea of what the author intended. This might be a useful approach to reading AL.

Yes reading texts should be a creative act and creative texts are inspiring, so yes I do believe the quote unquote 'Poet' actually did indeed have an encounter beyond certain realms to which I think that the notion of the double emerges in a contemporous display ...having an etiology of what might be well described as a 聽"Mauve Zone" encounter as Mr. Grant porously suggested, but of course Daath was Crowley's favorite Sephirot as the Equinox of the Gods attests....So when shewing the Slyphs...to which certain sensitivities were awakened....as is very plausible, especially with the pregnant reality of a child transforming mother and father alike...

At a time when everything was in the midst of great change producing its monstrous encounters upon the psyches of those sensitive predisposed...

The Rituals of the 'Cairo Working' are open for testing!

93

93/93聽

HG


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kidneyhawk
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26/03/2020 3:03 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

AL contains bits and pieces of this, but also many passages that resemble nothing else in his work. It is closer to TS Eliot, or Pound, than it is to anything else Crowley ever produced. It is distinctly modernist despite its sometimes stilted Bible-speak diction.

Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Would you give an example of how you feel AL is "closer to Elliot or Pound?" My inquiry is not a challenge. I would very much like to hear an elaboration on this theme.

I've been googling about to see if anyone has written on this theme (Crowley, the Modern Poet, with reference to Eliot and Pound). Alas, my keywords yield very little outside one "Magical Battle" with someone named Yeats.聽

I would still love to hear comment on how AL (regardless of authorship) is "closer to Eliot, or Pound, than it is to anything else."

I have always been fond of AL 3: 68. There is something in this verse of "You can't deny my poetic genius, no matter WHAT."


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Tiger
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26/03/2020 11:09 am  

Confessions, Liber Aleph, Magick in Theory and Practice, The Holy Books etc all come from different levels of understanding.
Some from an ordinary mode of consciousness.
The scene on the perception projection channel gets switched turned around for a fleeting eternity signal and the previous channel programing kicks back in.
The Maya demultiplexer takes the signals to insure ordinary levels of awareness and declares constants in the realm of its interpretation and the inconceivable inconsonants are declared as an illusion figment . Universe A channel is now back here. Oh and you as well. Oh that must have always been the case. all righty then.


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wellreadwellbred
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26/03/2020 11:42 am  

ignant666:聽"AL contains bits and pieces of this, but also many passages that resemble nothing else in his work. It is closer to TS Eliot, or Pound, than it is to anything else Crowley ever produced. It is distinctly modernist despite its sometimes stilted Bible-speak diction."

"Crowley himself had no patience聽with modern poetry; T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land (1922)鈥攚hich, ironically, incorporates much occult erudition鈥斺渘auseated鈥 him." (Source: Published by the Penguin Group 2014, Aleister Crowley: Magick, Rock and Roll, and the Wickedest Man in the World, by Gary Lachman, page 307.)


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ignant666
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26/03/2020 11:53 am  

Yes, i am aware that AC disliked most modernist work.

And actually, it was The Waste Land (and Pound's Pisan Cantos) that i was thinking of when i mentioned AL's "modernist tone".

AC said AL upset him- perhaps "nauseated"? And perhaps he too noticed Aiwass's "modernism", and was upset by this, rather than the lack of Buddhism that he said caused his upset-ness.


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wellreadwellbred
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26/03/2020 10:18 pm  

This thread covers many spectacular feats by Aleister Crowley occuring in 1900:

Fabricating an entirely new order of his own with a light radiating and automatically enlightening such minds as were ready to receive it, (by many years preceding the "93-current" and his Thelema), devising a Ritual of Self-Initiation, (by many years preceding his The Book of the Law's I:53 "... Hoor in his secret name and splendour is聽the Lord initiating."), creating The Obligation "To be most solemnly accepted by him who would attain unto the knowledge and conversation of his Holy Genius." (by many years preceding his Thelema with the core concept of the knowledge and conversation of your Holy Gurdian Angel), with praising of Horus like ""Hail! Hail to Thee, Lord of us, Horus! All hail to the warrior name!" , and beseeching of Nuit like "O Nuit, the starry one arise, And set thy starlight in my skies!", (by many years preceding his use of said Horus and Nuit within his Thelema), and in Mexico in August 11. 1900 'receiving' first contact from Aiwass, ("A vast Svastika is shewn unto me behind the Angel with the Book.", within The Cry of the 30th Aethyr, in AC's book The Vision and the Voice, illustrated with a svastika pointing in the same way as the one made infamous in the twentieth century), (by many years preceding AC mentioning said Aiwass in his core book for his Thelema).

Documented statements from Aleister Crowley, implies him being in communication with Aiwass already in 1900 during writing the beginning of what later beacame the book he titled The Vision and the Voice, and in 1907 starting to communcate with his Holy Guardian Angel at will.

Within http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleCoverofLiberAL.html 聽- "An Open Epistle On The Cover To Liber AL vel Legis by Frater Achad Osher 583""... it is stated that "Crowley may actually have heard Aiwass while receiving Liber AL vel Legis." (= the Book of the Law), while writing it as a case of automatic writing.

Crowley in his December 1907 diaries in reference to the Book of the Law and other Holy Books of Thelema, stating "Looking back on the year, it seems one continuous ecstasy ... I am able to do automatic writing at will.", strongly resembles Crowley's statement about him being able to 鈥済et into touch with Adonai [= synonyme for The Holy Guardian Angel, used in the Golden Dawn order in which AC was initiated] at will鈥.

The latter statement is described as predating the writing of Liber VII ("the first of a series of 鈥淗oly Books鈥 that Crowley claimed were dictated by his holy guardian angel, Aiwass.鈥, (Kaczynski 2010 page 172)) on October 30 in 1907, in Richard Kaczynski's 2010 published book Perdurabo, The Life of Aleister Crowley, Revised and Expanded Edition (Kaczynski 2010, page 172). This statement is dated as having been made on November 16th in 1907, in Tobias Churton's 2011 published book Aleister Crowley: The Biography : Spiritual Revolutionary, Romantic Explorer, (Churton 2011, page 137)." (Source: Evidence in Richard T. Cole's Liber L. vel Bogus. - - - https://www.lashtal.com/forums/postid/90874/ )


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Shiva
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27/03/2020 1:27 am  
Posted by: @wellreadwellbred

illustrated with a svastika pointing in the same way as the one made infamous in the twentieth century)

Yellow Hindu swastika religious symbol ...

You have provided sufficient evidence to make the point that AC was consciously "in touch" with many of the basic Elements of his "philosophy" in 1900, including an order, an angel, auto-scripting, Horus, Nuit, ,self-initiation, etc.

The evidence is overwhelming, to me at least, for I remember reading about most of the points you list, many years ago, and (yes) it was 1900.

I don't see anything unusual about this (1900), and I wonder what the implication might be?


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ignant666
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27/03/2020 1:40 am  

wrwb is not a man to avoid belaboring a point, or to fail to beat a dead horse.

The point he is making is that 1900 is before 1904.

Is anyone arguing with you about this, wrwb? I guess we do have a few Thelemic fundamentalists here, so carry on, i suppose.


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