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 Anonymous
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16/08/2010 5:59 pm  

What happens to a person who breaks their oath?


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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16/08/2010 7:00 pm  

lightning comes from the sky and strikes em down!
metaphorically speaking more often than not....


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herupakraath
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16/08/2010 7:05 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
What happens to a person who breaks their oath?

Nothing--that's the problem.


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 Anonymous
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16/08/2010 7:41 pm  

In some systems the Oaths are designed to activate certain issues and tendencies you have in life in order to help you work those issues out. They are designed to be broken to teach you a lesson.


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 Anonymous
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16/08/2010 7:49 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
In some systems the Oaths are designed to activate certain issues and tendencies you have in life in order to help you work those issues out. They are designed to be broken to teach you a lesson.

What lessons? Do you have any sources for this claim?


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Shiva
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16/08/2010 11:15 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
What happens to a person who breaks their oath?

Despite the fact that the oaths themselves are filled with lurid scenes of cosmic revenge (if one breaks the oath), and despite the assurances that "a magickal oath can't be broken," the oath-breaker seems to go their own un-molested way without penalty.

On the other hand, in certain high energy ashrams, the cause-and-effect factor gets increased (a higher frequency range is introduced) and the power of the word (as in oaths and other "intended" acts) develops a more powerful position. Sometimes people break their well-intended oath, or intend a curse, or violate their own Yama-Niyama balance - and terrible backlash occurs. And the funny thing is, anyone watching from the sidelines can easily see the cause and the effect - like an "object lesson."


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Horemakhet
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17/08/2010 1:15 am  

. . An "Oath" cannot be broken. It was not Magick or the Occult or Crow who came up with it. He realised the Power of it, so it is a part of his school. There are no penalties at all for one who is insincere. If we are to talk of a "Curse"; this can be accomplished by a Magician, but it is missing the point entirely to seek a punishment if you are not someone who can work Magick.


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slq
 slq
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17/08/2010 3:39 am  

I assume you are talking about a magical oath.

A magical oath is a promise. Sometimes it is a promise that involves an organization -- e.g. when a person vows not to reveal the secrets of a magical order -- in which case, when the promise is broken, that organization may impose sanctions on the individual, such as expelling them from the group.

But more importantly, a magical oath is a promise to one's inner or higher self, and as such, is a very potent magical tool. Breaking that oath robs you of that tool, by proving to your self that you are incapable of making a binding promise. It sets a precedent in your subconscious mind that you don't have the willpower to see something through that you had intended. Basically, it makes you magically impotent.

In every case of an individual breaking his or her magical oath that I have witnessed over the past 20 years or so, I have seen evidence of the consequences borne out in his or her life, in severity proportional to the magnitude of the breach. I have seen some spectacular falls come about as a result of deliberate and egregious oath-breaking.


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2010 5:30 am  
"slq" wrote:
I assume you are talking about a magical oath.

A magical oath is a promise. Sometimes it is a promise that involves an organization -- e.g. when a person vows not to reveal the secrets of a magical order -- in which case, when the promise is broken, that organization may impose sanctions on the individual, such as expelling them from the group.

But more importantly, a magical oath is a promise to one's inner or higher self, and as such, is a very potent magical tool. Breaking that oath robs you of that tool, by proving to your self that you are incapable of making a binding promise. It sets a precedent in your subconscious mind that you don't have the willpower to see something through that you had intended. Basically, it makes you magically impotent.

In every case of an individual breaking his or her magical oath that I have witnessed over the past 20 years or so, I have seen evidence of the consequences borne out in his or her life, in severity proportional to the magnitude of the breach. I have seen some spectacular falls come about as a result of deliberate and egregious oath-breaking.

So why does an oath have such a central symbolic significance as a magical act? Isn't the truest oath or baptism(perhaps a different concept altogether) that one is committed to prior to or foundational to ones existence?


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Azidonis
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17/08/2010 6:41 am  

93,

Book 4 - Part 2

Yes, all of it...

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2010 11:23 am  

Hi,
A broken oath (every oath is magickal), will bring the one who broke it, what he/she believes it will bring. Deep down in his/her subconsciousness is waiting the brewery for things like that. (Sorry, but I found no one, who did not break his/her oath one day. Often out of forgetfulness.)
Greetings
K


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Shiva
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17/08/2010 3:25 pm  
"wolf354" wrote:
What happens if you consider that is the order who isn't respecting the Oath?

"When a policeman breaks the Law, then there is no Law -
- It's just a fight for survival." - Billy Jack


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Shiva
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17/08/2010 3:40 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So why does an oath have such a central symbolic significance as a magical act?

The Oath is [supposed to be] the outward expression of one's Will (Thelema). It defines the nature and the goal of an operation.

The effectiveness of any Oath (and it's attendant penalties, called backlash or boomerang) is dependent upon How Much the Oath actually Affects one's Causal Body ("soul"). An insincere oath might never register higher than the Glamor of Yesod (the emotional-astral plane), where it could theoretically create a temporary change - even as reflected back into the physical plane.

But, a sincere oath, taken in full consciousness and with enthusiastic intent, will probably register at the physical-astral-mental-akashik levels, thus being capable of creating sweeping changes in mass consciousness as a new "reality" dawns. The penalties would be a bit more severe as well.


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Azidonis
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17/08/2010 4:12 pm  

93,

"Shiva" wrote:
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So why does an oath have such a central symbolic significance as a magical act?

The Oath is [supposed to be] the outward expression of one's Will (Thelema). It defines the nature and the goal of an operation.

The effectiveness of any Oath (and it's attendant penalties, called backlash or boomerang) is dependent upon How Much the Oath actually Affects one's Causal Body ("soul"). An insincere oath might never register higher than the Glamor of Yesod (the emotional-astral plane), where it could theoretically create a temporary change - even as reflected back into the physical plane.

But, a sincere oath, taken in full consciousness and with enthusiastic intent, will probably register at the physical-astral-mental-akashik levels, thus being capable of creating sweeping changes in mass consciousness as a new "reality" dawns. The penalties would be a bit more severe as well.

Wonderful way to put it Shiva.

93 93/93


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Walterfive
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17/08/2010 5:28 pm  

The actual question was "What happens to a person who breaks their oath?" The simple answer is that they invoke upon themselves what the Masonic traditions call "The penalty of the obligation."

Then this came up:

"Shiva" wrote:
"wolf354" wrote:
What happens if you consider that is the order who isn't respecting the Oath?

"When a policeman breaks the Law, then there is no Law -
- It's just a fight for survival." - Billy Jack

What a fallacy of logic. Really, I must speak up about such sloppy thinking.

There is no corelation between 'a policeman breaking the law' and the non-existence of law. This is a faulty postulation. The correct postulation would be: "All those who break the law are lawbreakers." And the logical conclusion would follow: "Therefore, if a policeman breaks the law, then the policeman is a lawbreaker." This is simple Formal Logic.

This does not address the validity of the Law in question, but it need not. We all know that a good deed can still be a criminal act-- Robin Hood robbed from the rich, to give to the poor.

"Just like every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners, saints..."
- Mick Jagger

The *actual* question is wether or not the theoretical "order" in question is following the spirit and/or the letter of the oath in question, or if it is not. And who can fairly answer that question without *all* the factors to be considered?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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17/08/2010 5:39 pm  
"kurt" wrote:
Hi,
A broken oath (every oath is magickal), will bring the one who broke it, what he/she believes it will bring. Deep down in his/her subconsciousness is waiting the brewery for things like that. (Sorry, but I found no one, who did not break his/her oath one day. Often out of forgetfulness.)
Greetings
K

I see you signed your name K which kind of suggests a kind of Kafkaesque design of the universe. Like you were somehow predestined to stumble into a vast unconscious madness.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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17/08/2010 5:47 pm  

93,

A simple answer is that an Oath is basically a contract between you and your HGA. Regardless of an organization or anything else, you make that Oath to your Self. If you pay attention to the writings, in the absence of a formal setting one may indeed sign even the Oaths of the A:.A:. with their Holy Guardian Angel as the Witness.

You can lie to your Self if you want to, but you don't get away with it. There is no set rule about Karmic Repercussions. How one's Energy is used though can either be beneficial or contrary to the Great Work. Even idleness is contrary. Therefore, one creates one's own situation.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2010 9:59 pm  

Know ye not that ye are Gods?

If the 'Oath' doesn't agree with your own will, then break it.


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2010 10:25 pm  

My understanding:
An oath is ultimately nothing more or less than a statement of Will, an intention to do,or be, something during the course of your particular incarnation. As such, even if it involves allegiance to some order or other body,it can ultimately only be taken on by and for yourself.
Assuming such an oath is somehow consonant with one's True Will (ie the inertial forces specific and individual to a particular incarnation), breaking of the oath puts one in conflict with one's true nature....this is how I understand Choronzon-the dispersed,chaotic individual split and at odds with itself. The results may or may not be obvious to others,but must necessarily follow.
However, given that True Will is an extremely slippery fish(and if you could hold it probably wouldn't turn out to be a fish at all) all oaths are probably akin to jumping off a cliff....and therefore should be avoided at all costs ❓ ❗


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/08/2010 10:37 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

Book 4 - Part 2

Yes, all of it...

93 93/93

Ok thank you, I know one these days I should read Magick without Tears since it seems like the most basic introduction to magick out there. I can't help but to think of the "No more tears" baby shampoo, which was notorious for causing more eye irritation than other products.


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 Anonymous
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17/08/2010 10:41 pm  
"Nefilim777" wrote:
Know ye not that ye are Gods?

If the 'Oath' doesn't agree with your own will, then break it.

Well what are the contents of the oaths? Are they secret? Would a person have time to consider the significance of the Oath before making one?


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Azidonis
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17/08/2010 11:57 pm  

93,

"Nefilim777" wrote:
Know ye not that ye are Gods?

If the 'Oath' doesn't agree with your own will, then break it.

The typical Oath made concerning the Great Work is in line with the Aspirant's understanding of his or her Will at the time of taking the Oath.

There is a difference between fulfilling an Oath completely and thereby assimilating and transcending it, and breaking it... which is why Crowley suggests not to take any such oaths or vows unless you are entirely sure you are committed to fulfilling them.

Your Word is not some cheap rag you can just throw away whenever you feel like it.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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18/08/2010 3:26 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"Nefilim777" wrote:
Know ye not that ye are Gods?

If the 'Oath' doesn't agree with your own will, then break it.

The typical Oath made concerning the Great Work is in line with the Aspirant's understanding of his or her Will at the time of taking the Oath.

There is a difference between fulfilling an Oath completely and thereby assimilating and transcending it, and breaking it... which is why Crowley suggests not to take any such oaths or vows unless you are entirely sure you are committed to fulfilling them.

Your Word is not some cheap rag you can just throw away whenever you feel like it.

93 93/93

The oaths or Oath are about the great work? So are oaths a commitment to participate in the Great Work? Doesn't that imply that a person must be a Thelemite before honestly taking an oath? I ask because I thought that the OTO was a magickal system that included members who are in other religions such as Christianity.


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Azidonis
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18/08/2010 11:02 am  

93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
The oaths or Oath are about the great work?

For the topic of specific oaths, it would help to know which specific ones you are referring to.

So are oaths a commitment to participate in the Great Work?

An Oath is... a promise. In particular, the following definitions from Dictionary.com

–noun, plural oaths  /oʊðz, oʊθs/ Show Spelled[ohthz, ohths] Show IPA.
1. a solemn appeal to a deity, or to some revered person or thing, to witness one's determination to speak the truth, to keep a promise, etc.: to testify upon oath.
2. a statement or promise strengthened by such an appeal.
3. a formally affirmed statement or promise accepted as an equivalent of an appeal to a deity or to a revered person or thing; affirmation.
4. the form of words in which such a statement or promise is made.

Doesn't that imply that a person must be a Thelemite before honestly taking an oath?

Oaths have been around since humans began to speak, I'm sure.

I ask because I thought that the OTO was a magickal system that included members who are in other religions such as Christianity.

The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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18/08/2010 11:09 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
The oaths or Oath are about the great work?

For the topic of specific oaths, it would help to know which specific ones you are referring to.

The Oaths for the initiation rites.


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Azidonis
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18/08/2010 11:22 am  

93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
The Oaths for the initiation rites.

Honestly, I'm not a member of the O.T.O., and the last time I read anything concerning their oaths was probably 10 years ago. However, I would assume the Oaths concern the Great Work. Why wouldn't they?

93 93/93


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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18/08/2010 12:40 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

You think so? I don't see why it must be so.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Shiva
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18/08/2010 3:20 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
There is a difference between fulfilling an Oath completely and thereby assimilating and transcending it, and breaking it...

There is also a difference in TYPES of oaths: (1) an oath taken to one's own self (higher, angelic, inner, source, etc.), and (2) an oath taken to an "outside" authority (guru, master, order, etc.).

Regarding this second approach ("outside" authority): Any oath taken to an external figure can be transferred to a "new external authority," but this scenario is valid only if the "new" object of oathdom is operating at a "higher" level of consciousness than the previous object. Therefore I consider an obligation to the Golden Dawn to be of greater import than my membership duties the local Chamber of Commerce.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
The oaths or Oath are about the great work?

Oaths are promises that can apply to anything: People take oaths when they become citizens, accept employment (sometimes), join the army, accept a public office, join a secret society, or perform magickal ceremonies.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So are oaths a commitment to participate in the Great Work?

Oaths are commitments to do whatever is implied in the words of the oath. The A.'.A.'. oaths are primarily taken in regard to regulating certain tendencies within oneself and can be considered as outstanding examples of the types of oaths that relate to the Great Work.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Doesn't that imply that a person must be a Thelemite before honestly taking an oath?

Hardly. Lama Fwang, in Tibet, performs the Great Work on a daily basis, yet he has never heard the word "Thelemite."

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
I ask because I thought that the OTO was a magickal system that included members who are in other religions such as Christianity.

This sentence contains the seeds of speculation that could easily launch a thousand threads:
(a) Is OTO a magickal system? Or a masonic-fraternal society?
(b) Does it include members of other religions? And if it does, who cares (?), because anyone can take an oath regardless of their religion or membership. Besides, practicing Christians (who put their reliance on Jesus to solve all problems) will surely have internal (as well as external) conflicts when it comes time to declare "self-reliance" and "obedience to the Grand Master B.'.."
(c) The Great Work can be undertaken by anyone, of any faith, or none, with or without a teacher, companions, memberships.
(d) Oaths are a promise.


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 Anonymous
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18/08/2010 5:57 pm  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

Your Word is not some cheap rag you can just throw away whenever you feel like it.

93 93/93

Did I suggest it was?


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Walterfive
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18/08/2010 9:12 pm  
"lashtal" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

You think so? I don't see why it must be so.

For some, it might seem oxymoronic, but studies of The Nag Hammadi Codex, the Panarion of Epiphaneus and the Gnostic teachings of Simon Magus will reveal much about the practice of *actual* Christianity prior to its bastardization and revision by the Church of Rome and the Council of Nicea in order to make it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The accounts of Simon Magus with his whore/Priestess Helena can be seen to parallel Yeshua/Jesus' relation with the Magdelene and indeed To Mega Therion's relations with his various Scarlet Women.

I believe The Panarion was where Crowley first fully encountered the Secret of the 9th Degree although Richard Payne Knight alludes to the Panarion and indirectly to the sexual proclivities of certain Gnostic sects in his 1786 work "Discourse on the Worship of Priapus."

Viewed in this light, along with Dr. Allegro's "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" and "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth," there is *nothing* "oxymoronic" or mutually exclusive about Christianity and Thelema. Some study of Philip K. Dick's Diaries and Letters (especially his Exegesis) may also be rewarding.

But it takes a maturity of one's faith to drop one's differences with the heavily prevelent Roman Death-Cult of the Zombie Jew and the worshippers of Ialdaboath, the false god, and discover that some sects (at least) of the Gnostics were already very close to what Thelema celebrates today in the celebration of the Gnostic Mass, and what is referred to in the O.T.O. as the Mystery of the 9th Degree.


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 Anonymous
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18/08/2010 9:49 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

You think so? I don't see why it must be so.

For some, it might seem oxymoronic, but studies of The Nag Hammadi Codex, the Panarion of Epiphaneus and the Gnostic teachings of Simon Magus will reveal much about the practice of *actual* Christianity prior to its bastardization and revision by the Church of Rome and the Council of Nicea in order to make it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The accounts of Simon Magus with his whore/Priestess Helena can be seen to parallel Yeshua/Jesus' relation with the Magdelene and indeed To Mega Therion's relations with his various Scarlet Women.

I believe The Panarion was where Crowley first fully encountered the Secret of the 9th Degree although Richard Payne Knight alludes to the Panarion and indirectly to the sexual proclivities of certain Gnostic sects in his 1786 work "Discourse on the Worship of Priapus."

Viewed in this light, along with Dr. Allegro's "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" and "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth," there is *nothing* "oxymoronic" or mutually exclusive about Christianity and Thelema. Some study of Philip K. Dick's Diaries and Letters (especially his Exegesis) may also be rewarding.

But it takes a maturity of one's faith to drop one's differences with the heavily prevelent Roman Death-Cult of the Zombie Jew and the worshippers of Ialdaboath, the false god, and discover that some sects (at least) of the Gnostics were already very close to what Thelema celebrates today in the celebration of the Gnostic Mass, and what is referred to in the O.T.O. as the Mystery of the 9th Degree.

Very well put sir. Obviously the current 'lot' that inhabit that place in Rome are not the real disciples of the real 'Christ'. They are controlling megalomaniacs.


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Azidonis
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18/08/2010 11:13 pm  

93,

"lashtal" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

You think so? I don't see why it must be so.

Liber AL

"I:49 Abrogate are all rituals, all ordeals, all words and signs. Ra-Hoor-Khuit hath taken his seat in the East at the Equinox of the Gods; and let Asar be with Isa, who also are one. But they are not of me. Let Asar be the adorant, Isa the sufferer; Hoor in his secret name and splendour is the Lord initiating.

II:5 Behold! the rituals of the old time are black. Let the evil ones be cast away; let the good ones be purged by the prophet! Then shall this Knowledge go aright."

...and others.

See Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey by J Daniel Gunther for more information on how this comes into effect.

Basically, the "old rituals" are only useful up to a certain point before they become useless, as the paradigm of Thelema has superseded Old Words and Old Ways.

At any rate, a "Thelemite" has accepted "Thelema" as the Word of this Aeon, and The Book of the Law is the Message of its prophet. It is an advancement in human thought and function.

And then there is... why would someone worship "Christ"... and then make the claim "there is no God but man", and praise the Prophet of Thelema, The Great Wild Beast 666? It is an oxymoron.

One can claim to religious tolerance and what-not, but that won't make the paradigms fit together any better. It's just a reason not to be at war... yet.

93 93/93


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Azidonis
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19/08/2010 1:46 am  

93,

"Walterfive" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

You think so? I don't see why it must be so.

For some, it might seem oxymoronic, but studies of The Nag Hammadi Codex, the Panarion of Epiphaneus and the Gnostic teachings of Simon Magus will reveal much about the practice of *actual* Christianity prior to its bastardization and revision by the Church of Rome and the Council of Nicea in order to make it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The accounts of Simon Magus with his whore/Priestess Helena can be seen to parallel Yeshua/Jesus' relation with the Magdelene and indeed To Mega Therion's relations with his various Scarlet Women.

I believe The Panarion was where Crowley first fully encountered the Secret of the 9th Degree although Richard Payne Knight alludes to the Panarion and indirectly to the sexual proclivities of certain Gnostic sects in his 1786 work "Discourse on the Worship of Priapus."

Viewed in this light, along with Dr. Allegro's "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" and "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth," there is *nothing* "oxymoronic" or mutually exclusive about Christianity and Thelema. Some study of Philip K. Dick's Diaries and Letters (especially his Exegesis) may also be rewarding.

But it takes a maturity of one's faith to drop one's differences with the heavily prevelent Roman Death-Cult of the Zombie Jew and the worshippers of Ialdaboath, the false god, and discover that some sects (at least) of the Gnostics were already very close to what Thelema celebrates today in the celebration of the Gnostic Mass, and what is referred to in the O.T.O. as the Mystery of the 9th Degree.

And this 9th degree "mystery" is equivalent to what in the System promulgated by Crowley and Jones?

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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19/08/2010 1:49 am  

Is the thing which we call by the name of Thelema just a paradigm, or a reality? The symbolic trappings are the paradigm, and as such are arbitrary. The reality is the thing that counts, imo. And that is Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Christ as Krst is the Osiris or Dionysus, the Shin of pentagrammaton. Exoteric Christianity incarnates principles which are at odds with Nature - and it is possible for practitioners of exoteric Thelema to make the identical mistake. Spiritual reality is spiritual reality, whatever labels are stuck on it.


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 Anonymous
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19/08/2010 1:56 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"Walterfive" wrote:
"lashtal" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
The term "Christian Thelemite" is an oxymoron.

You think so? I don't see why it must be so.

For some, it might seem oxymoronic, but studies of The Nag Hammadi Codex, the Panarion of Epiphaneus and the Gnostic teachings of Simon Magus will reveal much about the practice of *actual* Christianity prior to its bastardization and revision by the Church of Rome and the Council of Nicea in order to make it the official religion of the Roman Empire.

The accounts of Simon Magus with his whore/Priestess Helena can be seen to parallel Yeshua/Jesus' relation with the Magdelene and indeed To Mega Therion's relations with his various Scarlet Women.

I believe The Panarion was where Crowley first fully encountered the Secret of the 9th Degree although Richard Payne Knight alludes to the Panarion and indirectly to the sexual proclivities of certain Gnostic sects in his 1786 work "Discourse on the Worship of Priapus."

Viewed in this light, along with Dr. Allegro's "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" and "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth," there is *nothing* "oxymoronic" or mutually exclusive about Christianity and Thelema. Some study of Philip K. Dick's Diaries and Letters (especially his Exegesis) may also be rewarding.

But it takes a maturity of one's faith to drop one's differences with the heavily prevelent Roman Death-Cult of the Zombie Jew and the worshippers of Ialdaboath, the false god, and discover that some sects (at least) of the Gnostics were already very close to what Thelema celebrates today in the celebration of the Gnostic Mass, and what is referred to in the O.T.O. as the Mystery of the 9th Degree.

And this 9th degree "mystery" is equivalent to what in the System promulgated by Crowley and Jones?

93 93/93

Sex magick.


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Walterfive
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Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
19/08/2010 2:04 am  

To Azidonis: (straightfaced) You filthy centre of pestilence. *wink*

Absolutely, 'the "old rituals" are only useful up to a certain point before they become useless' but that 'certain point' can be all the way to Tipareth, and the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Perhaps it could be all the way to the Abyss, I wouldn't know, not having the personal experience to compare with, nor knowing anyone who's claimed to have done so themselves (that I could believe). But at Tipareth, one comes to the realization about Jesus the Magician and his place among the Masters of those "rituals of old times" and 'The Secret Doctrine' (as Mdm. Blavatsky called it,) of 'The Authentic Tradition' (as Jon Sellers and T. Allen Greenfield call it). At that point, our theoretical Christian Thelemite would have to make some serious revisions in personal dogma, but that would be inevitable anyway, having achieved K&CotHGA. There is as big a difference between practicing the teachings of Jesus the Magician and 'worshipping Christ' as there is between bowing down and bending over.

You say "At any rate, a "Thelemite" has accepted "Thelema" as the Word of this Aeon, and The Book of the Law is the Message of its prophet."

Well, for the sake of discussion, I'll disagree. Not only are there antecedents of Thelema that approximate the current philosophy eloquently enough, but Rabelais, the creator of the *original* Thelemites, *and* the Abbey of Thelema, was a Christian humanist and friend of Cardinal Jean du Bellay. There were Thelemites before Crowley, and before Liber Al Vel Legis. Sir Francis Dashwood and the Hell-Fire Club would be another prime example.

On top of this, it is also the case that there are men and women of many different sects and religions (or of no sect or religion) who are Thelemites by their own intelligence and disposition who have never even read Crowley or Liber Al Vel Legis. After all, 'yonder beggar may be a prince concealed...' and I've known some princes who are pretty well-concealed, and this is why "it is the Law to give," so that they can find themselves already standing with us.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/08/2010 2:09 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
Besides, practicing Christians (who put their reliance on Jesus to solve all problems) will surely have internal (as well as external) conflicts when it comes time to declare "self-reliance" and "obedience to the Grand Master B.'.."

Doesn't obedience to a grand master, Baphomet I imagine, imply a servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
19/08/2010 3:06 am  

93,

"Walterfive" wrote:
To Azidonis: (straightfaced) You filthy centre of pestilence. *wink*

Woohoo! 😀

Absolutely, 'the "old rituals" are only useful up to a certain point before they become useless' but that 'certain point' can be all the way to Tipareth, and the knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Perhaps it could be all the way to the Abyss, I wouldn't know, not having the personal experience to compare with, nor knowing anyone who's claimed to have done so themselves (that I could believe). But at Tipareth, one comes to the realization about Jesus the Magician and his place among the Masters of those "rituals of old times" and 'The Secret Doctrine' (as Mdm. Blavatsky called it,) of 'The Authentic Tradition' (as Jon Sellers and T. Allen Greenfield call it). At that point, our theoretical Christian Thelemite would have to make some serious revisions in personal dogma, but that would be inevitable anyway, having achieved K&CotHGA.

This is all I'm saying. There is evidence that Thelema and its teachings have the ability to take one beyond the identification of oneself with the Divine (Tiphareth), into actual Union with the Divine (in Binah). I can see why one would use the "old rituals" up to the point of Tiphareth, but with the sheer amount of deprogramming and reprogramming that has to be done along the way, I suppose it is really a matter of preference. I personally would rather become familiar with the ideas and precepts of the Aeon of Horus (in addition to all of the former knowledge and formulas) so that when "the Time comes", I do not have to acquaint myself with more new images than necessary.

One of the things one learns early, at least in the A:.A:., is the efficient use of energy.

There are some that are more studious, and some that are more work oriented. I don't see the point of learning Java in order to help run a business, when I can focus on other areas of a business that would enable me to simply hire someone who already knows Java.

There is as big a difference between practicing the teachings of Jesus the Magician and 'worshipping Christ' as there is between bowing down and bending over.

Yes. Even so, you just stated the formulas are good until Tiphareth.

You say "At any rate, a "Thelemite" has accepted "Thelema" as the Word of this Aeon, and The Book of the Law is the Message of its prophet."

Well, for the sake of discussion, I'll disagree. Not only are there antecedents of Thelema that approximate the current philosophy eloquently enough, but Rabelais, the creator of the *original* Thelemites, *and* the Abbey of Thelema, was a Christian humanist and friend of Cardinal Jean du Bellay. There were Thelemites before Crowley, and before Liber Al Vel Legis. Sir Francis Dashwood and the Hell-Fire Club would be another prime example.

I've recently come to the idea that the situation that Jesus was in, and the message he brought to his people, in some way contained a message just for that people. Take the "turn the other cheek" idea. Would it have really worked any other way for a man trying to stir up a people harboring the oppression they did at the hands of the Romans? Then look ahead to Dr. Martin Luther King. His message contained a large dose of non-violence, but again... would it have worked any other way given his circumstances?

In the same light, one can compare the message of Muhammed with that of Malcom X. One can easily see the connection between the concept of jihad and that of "by any means necessary".

With those ideas in mind, one can quite possibly consider Rabelias' views to be connected with the situations in which he lived and saw his people living. Recall that many of the ideas by these "great men" include a method by which the common populace can help to relieve or reduce their collective suffering. It's also possible that he foresaw Thelema as the main means by which to ultimately release the grip of the slave gods from humanity. Of course, he would see this in a Christian light, and possibly as a "pinnacle of Christianity in thought and practice", as that was the hermeneutic lens he used at the time, as well as the Formula of the Aeon in which he was working.

On top of this, it is also the case that there are men and women of many different sects and religions (or of no sect or religion) who are Thelemites by their own intelligence and disposition who have never even read Crowley or Liber Al Vel Legis. After all, 'yonder beggar may be a prince concealed...' and I've known some princes who are pretty well-concealed, and this is why "it is the Law to give," so that they can find themselves already standing with us.

I agree with this. "There is no certain test." When observing from an Aeonic perspective however, do you think that these people are assisted by the conditions created by the change in Aeons, by the Formula of this Aeon, even by the evolution and restructuring of the collective consciousness due to the implementation of the new paradigm on a more subtle scale?

In history there have been quite a few people (see the O.T.O. list of Saints) that could be considered Thelemic, even in the sense that Thelema means Will, and they have done their Will remarkably. Those men and women have had their names printed in the pages of history for us, and I'm certain they weren't the only ones.

Nowadays it just seems more common to see people working more congruent with the Law of Thelema than in the past. The world as a whole still has a long way to go however, and its quite possible that America will become a Muslim country before we see Thelema implemented on an actual global scale.

At any rate, the "old ways" have to be viewed in the context in which they fit and function properly or they are of no use at all, just as with any paradigm.

This is all "in my opinion" of course.

I'm sure this all fits in with the discussion of oaths somehow. 🙂

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
19/08/2010 3:33 am  

93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
Besides, practicing Christians (who put their reliance on Jesus to solve all problems) will surely have internal (as well as external) conflicts when it comes time to declare "self-reliance" and "obedience to the Grand Master B.'.."

Doesn't obedience to a grand master, Baphomet I imagine, imply a servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?

No. The idea behind the Prophet, any Prophet (see Christ, Buddha, Muhammed, etc.), is that they are the Word, or Logos of a certain paradigm. They have received in some manner a certain select amount of information regarding the management of certain areas of human evolution and growth. This information is interpreted by these Prophets and turned into a Formula. It is more of a Formula for one to use in order to obtain a connection (or link) with "That Intelligence" which gave them the information in the first place than it is an instruction for daily living... at least for some. Some use the instructions for daily living, and some work to ensure those people have the freedom and opportunity necessary for them to live that way. At any rate, all of this comes from the Logos.

Think of it like this. The Founder and CEO of Microsoft is Bill Gates. Bill Gates set up his company to function in order to fulfill a certain niche in human wants and needs, and has done his best to make that product both widely available and decently affordable. When he steps down from his post from CEO, either by retirement or some other reason, he will have left a certain imprint on the psychology of both his co-workers at Microsoft and the rest of the world. You have come to expect certain things from Microsoft whether you like Microsoft or not. In this sense, Bill Gates is a "Magus" of the Aeon of "PC computers", whose "Word" is "Microsoft." Any person coming along after him to "fill his shoes" will either work to uphold that paradigm, or completely change it either for better or worse.

In the case of the O.T.O., Aleister Crowley, To Mega Therion, The Great Beast 666, is a Magus whose Word is Thelema. As long as the O.T.O. considers itself a Thelemic Organization it will do its best to help continue along those lines and further develop that paradigm. Thelemites simply call it "promulgating the Law of Thelema".

It's more of a collective effort than an obedience factor. Even in such a situation that you meet say, the O.H.O. of the O.T.O., an appropriate response would be to show respect for one who has tread before you, and to simply ask "how can I help".

93 93/93


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
19/08/2010 4:01 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"Walterfive" wrote:
I believe The Panarion was where Crowley first fully encountered the Secret of the 9th Degree although Richard Payne Knight alludes to the Panarion and indirectly to the sexual proclivities of certain Gnostic sects in his 1786 work "Discourse on the Worship of Priapus."

And this 9th degree "mystery" is equivalent to what in the System promulgated by Crowley and Jones?

93 93/93

See 'The Book Of Lies' Chap.69. And The Gnostic Mass, allegorically--"Closed-captioned for the conceptually impaired," as my 2nd wife put it.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
19/08/2010 4:13 am  

93,

"Walterfive" wrote:
"Closed-captioned for the conceptually impaired," as my 2nd wife put it.

LOL I like her style 🙂

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/08/2010 4:14 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
Besides, practicing Christians (who put their reliance on Jesus to solve all problems) will surely have internal (as well as external) conflicts when it comes time to declare "self-reliance" and "obedience to the Grand Master B.'.."

Doesn't obedience to a grand master, Baphomet I imagine, imply a servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?

No. The idea behind the Prophet, any Prophet (see Christ, Buddha, Muhammed, etc.), is that they are the Word, or Logos of a certain paradigm. They have received in some manner a certain select amount of information regarding the management of certain areas of human evolution and growth. This information is interpreted by these Prophets and turned into a Formula. It is more of a Formula for one to use in order to obtain a connection (or link) with "That Intelligence" which gave them the information in the first place than it is an instruction for daily living... at least for some. Some use the instructions for daily living, and some work to ensure those people have the freedom and opportunity necessary for them to live that way. At any rate, all of this comes from the Logos.

Think of it like this. The Founder and CEO of Microsoft is Bill Gates. Bill Gates set up his company to function in order to fulfill a certain niche in human wants and needs, and has done his best to make that product both widely available and decently affordable. When he steps down from his post from CEO, either by retirement or some other reason, he will have left a certain imprint on the psychology of both his co-workers at Microsoft and the rest of the world. You have come to expect certain things from Microsoft whether you like Microsoft or not. In this sense, Bill Gates is a "Magus" of the Aeon of "PC computers", whose "Word" is "Microsoft." Any person coming along after him to "fill his shoes" will either work to uphold that paradigm, or completely change it either for better or worse.

In the case of the O.T.O., Aleister Crowley, To Mega Therion, The Great Beast 666, is a Magus whose Word is Thelema. As long as the O.T.O. considers itself a Thelemic Organization it will do its best to help continue along those lines and further develop that paradigm. Thelemites simply call it "promulgating the Law of Thelema".

It's more of a collective effort than an obedience factor. Even in such a situation that you meet say, the O.H.O. of the O.T.O., an appropriate response would be to show respect for one who has tread before you, and to simply ask "how can I help".

93 93/93

So a fundamental part of being a part of the OTO is that you are follow the guidance of Crowley?

What if one decides that they don't want to be a part of the OTO after they have been initiated? Are they still obligated to their Oath of obedience to Crowley?


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
19/08/2010 4:33 am  

93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So a fundamental part of being a part of the OTO is that you are follow the guidance of Crowley?

You either agree with Crowley or you don't. If you didn't agree with Crowley, at least where the O.T.O. was concerned, then I don't see why you would join the O.T.O. (or any other organization you don't agree with for that matter) in the first place.

What if one decides that they don't want to be a part of the OTO after they have been initiated?

The O.T.O. is more of a fraternal body than an initiating body. As for their Oaths, since you seem to be pretty interested in it, US Grand Lodge, OTO Enjoy your search.

Are they still obligated to their Oath of obedience to Crowley?

Again, you are mistaking the term cooperation and obedience. Think of it more of a general assembly of people with a common goal, or fraternity, than some sort of boarding school.

93 93/93


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5028
19/08/2010 4:43 am  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Doesn't obedience to a grand master, Baphomet I imagine, imply a servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?

All the Yogis and all the Western traditions have "the oath of obedience."

Eventually, one is supposed to be (unquestioningly) obedience to one's angel or higher self or whatever you want to call it. (True Self and True Will and all that).

But in the beginning, one is unable to "hear" that True Self, so the guru or master or teacher (who, theoretically, is able to hear) ACTS as the disciple's higher nature. Ideally, the aspirant follows out all the guru's commands (this is the place where the oath of obedience is taken), and then one day he or she has been led to the place where he or she can make that ultimate, inner contact - and the guru is then supposed to let the student go ("graduate"). In India, at this point the student is promoted to teacher as the guru formally announces his "teachership." In the West, an initiate receives a charter.

That's the way it's supposed to work. Obviously there are many flaws available and a lot of room for abuse and misunderstanding. Here are a couple:
1. The guru really isn't enlightened and he issues commands based on his personal whims or his subconscious disturbances. This is common.
2. The guru refuses to let the student "go" - it's like mothers who refuse to let their children leave home when they come of age.

Also, these oaths and ceremonies are based on procedures that were developed centuries ago. There is little difference in obedience to a Japanese warlord, the leader of a dark ages secret society, or the Society of Jesus with obedience to the Pope. They are all based on survival and the expansion of control. The passwords, grips and signs were necessary in a time when the Inquisition would take you down painfully and hard. Secret Agent 666 and Grand Master de Molay had their enemies. De Molay lost in the treacherous game of religious cloak and dagger. The Templars were an Army! And they were FREE of political control (those pesky dukes and kings), for they were accountable ONLY to the Pope. So even the original (G.'.M.'.) Baphomet had his oath of obedience extended into Rome (on paper, anyway).

The original question posed above ("servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?") is answered in a lecture delivered by no less than Saladin himself within one of the Grand Master B.'.'s rituals. You can look it up in The Secret Rituals of the OTO by Francis King.

Now, to show how interesting this can get, let me tell another story:

From 1963 to 1970, all of us participants in that great experiment called "Solar Lodge" took oaths that specifically bound us to "OTO" under obligation to the "Grand Master B.'.."

But there was no Grand Master B.'. (Crowley having died), so our guru took the title and we were in business.

Decades later, the "official," "legally-recognized," OTO (that was NOT in business or otherwise operative from 1963 to 1970) took the position that Solar Lodge was not a part of OTO because there was no written charter (even if there was a verbal command from one of the few remaining ninth degrees of Agape Lodge).

So where does that leave people who are "magically linked" by oath to OTO and have promised to obey the Grand Master B.'.? Up the feces river without an oar, that's where! Thank goodness my guru, the G.'.M.'.B.'. himself, let me off the hook and reluctantly "graduated" me with these words: "Well, you do what you want, but I wish you'd stay and help me rebuild things."

The A.'.A.'. oaths, which basically are agreements between yourself and your yourself, are accompanied by a paper that includes the injunction to obey one's superior: "Beside all this, he shall perform any tasks that his Zelator in the name of the A.'.A.'. and by its authority may see fit to lay upon him." But this is an injunction and is not built in to an oath or a promise.

So anyway, with concerns for who is the real G.'.M.'.B.'., living or dead, relegated into the distant past, I am content to take my orders from the Avatar of Synthesis, who is Shiva in his Sirian disguise, who is my own inner agent.

The point is, no matter what you think or what you promise, or who gets to be the King of the Hill for a Day, you'll come out alright in the end.

If you don't die trying.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/08/2010 5:38 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So a fundamental part of being a part of the OTO is that you are follow the guidance of Crowley?

You either agree with Crowley or you don't. If you didn't agree with Crowley, at least where the O.T.O. was concerned, then I don't see why you would join the O.T.O. (or any other organization you don't agree with for that matter) in the first place.

What if one decides that they don't want to be a part of the OTO after they have been initiated?

The O.T.O. is more of a fraternal body than an initiating body. As for their Oaths, since you seem to be pretty interested in it, US Grand Lodge, OTO Enjoy your search.

Are they still obligated to their Oath of obedience to Crowley?

Again, you are mistaking the term cooperation and obedience. Think of it more of a general assembly of people with a common goal, or fraternity, than some sort of boarding school.

93 93/93

What are the initiating bodies then if the OTO is not essentially a initiating body?

I imagine a person would want to to undertake initiation without agreeing with Crowley for the same reason they would want to participate in meditation without agreeing with the Buddha they want to experience the effect of doing that rather than adhering to the doctrine.

Ok, are they obligated to cooperate with Crowley if they are no longer interested in being a part of the order?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/08/2010 5:48 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Doesn't obedience to a grand master, Baphomet I imagine, imply a servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?

All the Yogis and all the Western traditions have "the oath of obedience."

Eventually, one is supposed to be (unquestioningly) obedience to one's angel or higher self or whatever you want to call it. (True Self and True Will and all that).

But in the beginning, one is unable to "hear" that True Self, so the guru or master or teacher (who, theoretically, is able to hear) ACTS as the disciple's higher nature. Ideally, the aspirant follows out all the guru's commands (this is the place where the oath of obedience is taken), and then one day he or she has been led to the place where he or she can make that ultimate, inner contact - and the guru is then supposed to let the student go ("graduate"). In India, at this point the student is promoted to teacher as the guru formally announces his "teachership." In the West, an initiate receives a charter.

That's the way it's supposed to work. Obviously there are many flaws available and a lot of room for abuse and misunderstanding. Here are a couple:
1. The guru really isn't enlightened and he issues commands based on his personal whims or his subconscious disturbances. This is common.
2. The guru refuses to let the student "go" - it's like mothers who refuse to let their children leave home when they come of age.

Also, these oaths and ceremonies are based on procedures that were developed centuries ago. There is little difference in obedience to a Japanese warlord, the leader of a dark ages secret society, or the Society of Jesus with obedience to the Pope. They are all based on survival and the expansion of control. The passwords, grips and signs were necessary in a time when the Inquisition would take you down painfully and hard. Secret Agent 666 and Grand Master de Molay had their enemies. De Molay lost in the treacherous game of religious cloak and dagger. The Templars were an Army! And they were FREE of political control (those pesky dukes and kings), for they were accountable ONLY to the Pope. So even the original (G.'.M.'.) Baphomet had his oath of obedience extended into Rome (on paper, anyway).

The original question posed above ("servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?") is answered in a lecture delivered by no less than Saladin himself within one of the Grand Master B.'.'s rituals. You can look it up in The Secret Rituals of the OTO by Francis King.

Now, to show how interesting this can get, let me tell another story:

From 1963 to 1970, all of us participants in that great experiment called "Solar Lodge" took oaths that specifically bound us to "OTO" under obligation to the "Grand Master B.'.."

But there was no Grand Master B.'. (Crowley having died), so our guru took the title and we were in business.

Decades later, the "official," "legally-recognized," OTO (that was NOT in business or otherwise operative from 1963 to 1970) took the position that Solar Lodge was not a part of OTO because there was no written charter (even if there was a verbal command from one of the few remaining ninth degrees of Agape Lodge).

So where does that leave people who are "magically linked" by oath to OTO and have promised to obey the Grand Master B.'.? Up the feces river without an oar, that's where! Thank goodness my guru, the G.'.M.'.B.'. himself, let me off the hook and reluctantly "graduated" me with these words: "Well, you do what you want, but I wish you'd stay and help me rebuild things."

The A.'.A.'. oaths, which basically are agreements between yourself and your yourself, are accompanied by a paper that includes the injunction to obey one's superior: "Beside all this, he shall perform any tasks that his Zelator in the name of the A.'.A.'. and by its authority may see fit to lay upon him." But this is an injunction and is not built in to an oath or a promise.

So anyway, with concerns for who is the real G.'.M.'.B.'., living or dead, relegated into the distant past, I am content to take my orders from the Avatar of Synthesis, who is Shiva in his Sirian disguise, who is my own inner agent.

The point is, no matter what you think or what you promise, or who gets to be the King of the Hill for a Day, you'll come out alright in the end.

If you don't die trying.

All this seems to contradict the idea, that even members of the OTO like to promote, that the OTO is a kind of "fan club" for Crowley.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
19/08/2010 7:46 am  

93,

"Shiva" wrote:
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Doesn't obedience to a grand master, Baphomet I imagine, imply a servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?

All the Yogis and all the Western traditions have "the oath of obedience."

Eventually, one is supposed to be (unquestioningly) obedience to one's angel or higher self or whatever you want to call it. (True Self and True Will and all that).

But in the beginning, one is unable to "hear" that True Self, so the guru or master or teacher (who, theoretically, is able to hear) ACTS as the disciple's higher nature. Ideally, the aspirant follows out all the guru's commands (this is the place where the oath of obedience is taken), and then one day he or she has been led to the place where he or she can make that ultimate, inner contact - and the guru is then supposed to let the student go ("graduate"). In India, at this point the student is promoted to teacher as the guru formally announces his "teachership." In the West, an initiate receives a charter.

That's the way it's supposed to work. Obviously there are many flaws available and a lot of room for abuse and misunderstanding. Here are a couple:
1. The guru really isn't enlightened and he issues commands based on his personal whims or his subconscious disturbances. This is common.
2. The guru refuses to let the student "go" - it's like mothers who refuse to let their children leave home when they come of age.

Also, these oaths and ceremonies are based on procedures that were developed centuries ago. There is little difference in obedience to a Japanese warlord, the leader of a dark ages secret society, or the Society of Jesus with obedience to the Pope. They are all based on survival and the expansion of control. The passwords, grips and signs were necessary in a time when the Inquisition would take you down painfully and hard. Secret Agent 666 and Grand Master de Molay had their enemies. De Molay lost in the treacherous game of religious cloak and dagger. The Templars were an Army! And they were FREE of political control (those pesky dukes and kings), for they were accountable ONLY to the Pope. So even the original (G.'.M.'.) Baphomet had his oath of obedience extended into Rome (on paper, anyway).

The original question posed above ("servility which is contrary to the achievement of the Great Work?") is answered in a lecture delivered by no less than Saladin himself within one of the Grand Master B.'.'s rituals. You can look it up in The Secret Rituals of the OTO by Francis King.

Now, to show how interesting this can get, let me tell another story:

From 1963 to 1970, all of us participants in that great experiment called "Solar Lodge" took oaths that specifically bound us to "OTO" under obligation to the "Grand Master B.'.."

But there was no Grand Master B.'. (Crowley having died), so our guru took the title and we were in business.

Decades later, the "official," "legally-recognized," OTO (that was NOT in business or otherwise operative from 1963 to 1970) took the position that Solar Lodge was not a part of OTO because there was no written charter (even if there was a verbal command from one of the few remaining ninth degrees of Agape Lodge).

So where does that leave people who are "magically linked" by oath to OTO and have promised to obey the Grand Master B.'.? Up the feces river without an oar, that's where! Thank goodness my guru, the G.'.M.'.B.'. himself, let me off the hook and reluctantly "graduated" me with these words: "Well, you do what you want, but I wish you'd stay and help me rebuild things."

The A.'.A.'. oaths, which basically are agreements between yourself and your yourself, are accompanied by a paper that includes the injunction to obey one's superior: "Beside all this, he shall perform any tasks that his Zelator in the name of the A.'.A.'. and by its authority may see fit to lay upon him." But this is an injunction and is not built in to an oath or a promise.

So anyway, with concerns for who is the real G.'.M.'.B.'., living or dead, relegated into the distant past, I am content to take my orders from the Avatar of Synthesis, who is Shiva in his Sirian disguise, who is my own inner agent.

The point is, no matter what you think or what you promise, or who gets to be the King of the Hill for a Day, you'll come out alright in the end.

If you don't die trying.

Good form Shiva, as usual.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
All this seems to contradict the idea, that even members of the OTO like to promote, that the OTO is a kind of "fan club" for Crowley.

If they are promoting the idea of a fan club, then that's the individual people, not the O.T.O. itself.

From the O.T.O. Manifesto (which mentions it is an initiating body, perhaps contrary from my own earlier statement, but we have discussed that already in this thread):

8. "The whole of the Knowledge dispersed among the bodies mentioned in paragraph 2 has been sifted and concentrated in the following degrees.

Oÿ Minerval
M.
II° M. .
III° M.·.
P.·.M.·.
IV° Companion of the Holy Royal Arch of Enoch. Prince of Jerusalem. Knight of the East and of the West.
Sovereign Prince of Rose Croix. (Knight of the Pelican and Eagle.)
Member of the Senate of Knight Hermetic Philosophers, Knights of the Red Eagle.
VI° Illustrious Knight (Templar) of the Order of Kadosch, and Companion of the Holy Graal. Grand Inquisitor Commander, Member of the Grand Tribunal. Prince of the Royal Secret.
VII° Very Illustrious Sovereign Grand Inspector General. Member of the Supreme Grand Council.
VIII° Perfect Pontiff of the Illuminati.
IX° Initiate of the Sanctuary of the Gnosis.
Rex Summus Sanctissimus (Supreme and Most Holy King).

9. Every man and woman that is of full age, free, and of good report, has an indefeasible right to the III°.

Beyond this, admission is only granted by invitation from the governing body concerned.

The O.T.O., although an Academia Masonica, is not a Masonic Body so far as the 'secrets' are concerned in the sense in which that expression is usually understood; and therefore in no way conflicts with, or infringes the just privileges of, the United Grand Lodge of England, or any Grand Lodge in America or elsewhere which is recognized by it."

[...]

13. "The privileges of members of the O.T.O. are very numerous. These are the principal:

1. They have not only access to, but instruction in, the whole body of hidden knowledge preserved in the Sanctuary from the beginning of its manifestation.

In the lower grades the final secrets are hinted and conveyed in symbol, beneath veil, and through sacrament.

In this way the intelligence of the initiate is called into play, so that he who well uses the knowledge of the lower grades may be selected for invitation to the higher, where all things are declared openly.

2. They become partakers of the current of Universal Life in Liberty, Beauty, Harmony, and Love which flames within the heart of the O.T.O., and the Light of that august fraternity insensibly illuminates them ever more and more as they approach its central Sun.

3. They meet those persons most complemental to their own natures, and find unexpected help and brotherhood in the whole world wherever they may travel.

4. They obtain the right to sojourn in the secret houses of the O.T.O., permanently or for a greater or lesser period of the year according to their rank in the Order; or, in the case of those of the Fifth and lower degrees, are candidates for invitation to these houses.

5. The Knowledge of the Preparation and Use of the Universal Medicine is restricted to members of the IX°; but it may be administered to members of the VIII° and VII° in special circumstances by favour of the National Grand Masters General, and even in particular emergency to members of lower degrees.

6. In the V° all members are pledged to bring immediate and perfect relief to all distress of mind, body, or estate, in which they may find any of their fellows of that degree. In the higher degrees the Bonds of Fraternity are still further strengthened. The Order thus affords a perfect system of insurance against every misfortune or accident of life.

7. Members of the IX° become part proprietors of the Estates and Goods of the Order, so that the attainment of this degree implies a return with interest of the fees and subscriptions paid.

8. The Order gives practical assistance in life to worthy members of even its lower degrees, so that, even if originally poor, they become well able to afford the comparatively high fees of the VII°, VIII°, and IX°. On exaltation to the IV° each Companion may file an account of his circumstances, and state in what direction he requires help.

14. In selecting members for advancement, attention is paid to their devotion to the Order, to their intelligence in apprehending the nature of its teaching, to their zeal in spreading the principles of the Order so far as they themselves understand them, though always with the discretion inseparable from the due guarding of the secrets, and to all those qualities of courage, honour, and virtue without which man is not worthy of that name."

As an aside, this thread is more about your questions concerning the O.T.O. of which I am not (and have never been) a member. That said, I'm pretty much done answering questions about my own interpretations of what the O.T.O. is, as a Thelemite on the outside of their workings.

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 2964
19/08/2010 7:56 am  

93,

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
What are the initiating bodies then if the OTO is not essentially a initiating body?

It is an initiating body in an external sense, in worldly affairs, and in an internal sense, up to a certain point. Sorry for the confusion.

I imagine a person would want to to undertake initiation without agreeing with Crowley for the same reason they would want to participate in meditation without agreeing with the Buddha they want to experience the effect of doing that rather than adhering to the doctrine.

It's about the Systems. If you want to aspire to initiation, you have to ask yourself "initiation into what". If the answer is to be initiated into the A:.A:., O.T.O. or anything else, you probably want to agree with the tenets of the organization you want to belong to. Otherwise it's pretty much pointless.

You can participate in meditation without agreeing with Buddha, sure. But are you going to become a Theravada monk if you do not agree with Theravada?

You are mistaking the organizations with the Systems.

Ok, are they obligated to cooperate with Crowley if they are no longer interested in being a part of the order?

If you don't like it, leave. I don't know of any Oath which requires you to be shot and killed if you decide to leave. Also, if you don't like it, why would you join in the first place?

Repercussions regarding Magickal Oaths are more Karmic than anything. I highly doubt you would get to the IV degree, leave, and then have some stalker in a black hoodie come slit your throat. Even in the A:.A:., one is pretty much permitted to leave at any time during certain stages of progress.

Plain and simple, if you don't like the cooking, you don't eat at the restaurant. If you don't take yourself or your conviction seriously, don't make the commitment. I honestly am failing to see where this line is so fuzzy.

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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/08/2010 8:07 am  

Id imagine it's very basic, as pertaining to the laws of hermeticism. Im sure the degree in which you made your oath is the degree in which you would get the backlash from breaking it. Most oaths broken however, im sure werent taken to seriously to begin with conciously or unconciously.


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Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5028
19/08/2010 4:42 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
All this seems to contradict the idea, that even members of the OTO like to promote, that the OTO is a kind of "fan club" for Crowley.

In some people's eyes, that may be exactly what it is.

The Order of the Temple of the East that I was associated with was directly overshadowed by the Order as it exists on the astral plane. You see, each of these orders that persist on the physical plane (including Theosophy and Masonry and the Templars, etc) is a (lineage) manifestation of an astral order. And all these astral orders are manifestations of that one order that has no name, that has existed since the dawn of consciousness - as fully described in the most basic, introductory Libers and Lections of Thelema. See: The Equinox, Vol I, No 1, for example.

It is made very clear from the beginning that outer orders (on the physical plane) are reflections of the astral and inner orders (on the astral and causal planes, respectively). So if the inner and the outer are well synchronized, you will get a very powerful and effective initiatory order. It will be an actual "overshadowing" wherein the members are all consciously imprinting a dynamic archetypal scenario upon mass consciousness. They are cosmic change agents. I imagine it was like that at Cefalu. It was like that at Solar Lodge, and Solar Ranch allowed one access to the cosmic drama of Armageddon.

If they are not well synchronized, they are fan clubs, or fraternities, or study groups.

I'm sure there are many satisfied OTO members who are walking the initiatory path, and who are overshadowed by that inner-astral order, and they KNOW that there's a "real" inner OTO behind all these outer manifestations. Ask WalterFive if I am correct.

I'm also sure that there are camps, oases and temples that are run by those who perhaps SHOULD be in a fan club.

All this doesn't matter. What matters is what you as an individual do, and who you connect with ... and how much you get transmitted to you through the "real" inner order.

"Association with initiates tends to produce more initiates." - Frater Shiva


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