What is initiation?
 
Notifications
Clear all

What is initiation?  

Page 1 / 3
  RSS

 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/08/2010 3:57 am  

I keep hearing about initiation. What is initiation and why is it important? What kind of spiritual experience does the person undergo? Is it like the ordeals that you hear about in Shamanistic cultures? Can a person choose to stop an initiation once it starts? Why are there some things that thelemites can't tell me unless I become initiated?


Quote
Los
 Los
(@los)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2195
16/08/2010 8:58 am  

“Initiation” can refer to rites of passage to enter a group or to progress through its ranks, but people use it more frequently to refer to the process of spiritual attainment. In the sense of joining/advancing in a group, initiation will give you membership in a social club, certain privileges in that club, and probably access to code words and handshakes that only people in that club know.

In the sense of spiritual attainment, though, there is only self-initiation. No other individual or group can make you to attain, though they can give you helpful nudges along the way.

“Initiation” involves discovering what Crowley called your “true will,” which is essentially the path most natural to you, from which your mind is constantly distracting you. There are various techniques for stopping the mind from interfering with your will – learn them and practice the ones that appeal to you the most.

Everything else is more or less bells and whistles on top of that process.


ReplyQuote
SatansAdvocaat
(@satansadvocaat)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 351
16/08/2010 2:57 pm  

HI Rule of Random,

Los has done a very acceptable job of defining what 'initiation' is, but I'd like to pursue a broader landscape. Initiation is Life, life is initiation, otherwise you ain't living. Focussed 'initiation' is another thing, the one you have in mind - spiritual gnosis, the introspection of the deeper, and sometimes the darker aspects of the self. Personally, in my view, once you have started there is no going back, unless you wish to anull the entire probability of your own existence. Thelema is a label to that which you are already aware of, but if you wish to pursue it as a system, you'll get some good guidance on this website.

Love is the law, love under will.

Satan's Advocaat.

(Do I get 'browny points' for this one, Paul ? What the hell are 'browny points' anyway ? I am such an unworldly individual ?)

AUMGN.


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
16/08/2010 3:28 pm  
"Los" wrote:
In the sense of spiritual attainment, though, there is only self-initiation. No other individual or group can make you to attain, though they can give you helpful nudges along the way.

It is not a question of "making" one attain. You can't "make" anyone do anything in the way of spiritual attainment or illumination-- some people will refuse to see, and some will be too preoccupied, too dense, or too distracted.

You throw a rock into a pool, it makes waves throughout to its edge; the bigger the rock, the bigger the waves. The initiatory rituals of the O.T.O., when rightly performed, start profound changes in the individual's life. Crowley deliberately wrote them like that. Each degree invokes different changes and each is connected to a different chakra, as explained in The Equinox Vol. III, No. 10. You can make those changes into opportunities, or you can let them really mess with your life circumstances. These may be the sort of "ordeals" spoken of in Liber Al Vel Legis-- that's what I was taught when I became an Initiator.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
16/08/2010 4:26 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
What is initiation...?

Initiation is both a process and an event. The process goes on, and on, and on. The event is:
(a) a ceremony designed to duplicate an archetypal or a mundane beginning or advancement in membership, status, dues-paying category, rank, salary level, responsibility and or consciousness.
(b) a crisis in the life and times of an initiate. wherein he or she undergoes a test of his or her ability to demonstrate "control," followed by an expansion of consciousness.
This second definition [a crisis] is the "real" initiation, with the first one [a ceremony] being an imitation of the second.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
... why is it important?

For many people, it's not important at all ! For others, it is the process of growth, expansion and progress, and they like to study it so that maybe they can figure out the processes of life (the long path) and initiation (the short path).

"Path" to what ? Why, back to where you came from, so that you can "know that place for the first time."

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
What kind of spiritual experience does the person undergo?

Some kind of light is usually perceived - a flash or a glow inside the head or an engulfing, external rapture. The resulting experiences will vary with the individual, but basically, he or she gets "in touch" with a part of themselves that has an expanded awareness and that was previously fleeting or unavailable. Some people are under the impression that they are contacted by another entity - the archetypal imagery that plays out during an initiatory crisis certainly suggests this, but it varies with the thoughtform-making capacity of each individual initiate.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Is it like the ordeals that you hear about in Shamanistic cultures?

It certainly can be - it varies with each individual.

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Can a person choose to stop an initiation once it starts?

Ha, ha, ha ! Many initiatory rites have a place where the initiator says something like, "I ask you, for the third and final time - do you still wish to continue?" (I've never heard of anyone saying "No" at this point, but it does suggest that the candidate could back out). But in the real-life events, the only way to "stop" it is to continue through to the end ... Or give up and die (which is usually the same thing as continuing through to the end, because in the end there is nothing left to do but surrender).

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Why are there some things that thelemites can't tell me unless I become initiated?

Like who, or what?

OTO Thelemites are bound by their masonic-like oaths of secrecy regarding passwords, grips, signs, the nature of the ritual, names of people, and the cloaked, ultra-secret, mysteries of the higher degrees. These are the usual proprietary secrets of any business or organization. Essentially, these things are none of your business unless you choose to pay the fee and join the club.

AA Thelemites will have nothing to hide, as "Mystery is the enemy of Truth." But even they might conceal the current Word of the Equinox, which (theoretically) is a secret password known only to currently-recognized and approved personnel, if one still follows the old AC approach.

Without further consideration of these "artificial" secrets (mostly words and gestures), ANY Thelemite, if they be true to that title, should have nothing to hide from you - except for those few things mentioned in Liber AL as being "secret." If you do a [computer] search of Liber AL, using the word "secret," you will see those things that have been designated as "secret," and so you will know the nature of those secrets and you can get going on searching for the "official" secrets.

In regard to secrecy in general within spiritual and initiatory communities, we must remember the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and the mentality of the average fanatic Muslim, or your average fanatic Christian, or the average fanatic Chinese Communist Party Official The idea of secrecy

All the artificial secrets are just contrivances; all the "real" secrets are incommunicable.

What "real" secrets? Oh, how to access Binah; how to effectively heal; how to transmit (initiate) consciousness to a student; how to stop thinking; how to exit the body in astral projection; how to focus on one thing; etc.

And never forget the real "real" secret: How to make Gold !
See The Book of Lies - Chapter 88.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/08/2010 5:41 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
I keep hearing about initiation. What is initiation and why is it important?

In my view, initiation is any actual, significant improvement in the quality of one's consciousness, transformation of being, deepening of perspective, attainment of ability, or assimilation of knowledge and experience. To initiate means to begin: The Next Step.

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that the term is used in two distinct senses in occultism which are sometimes confused:

i) the actual event, state, or process itself, which is real; and

ii) artificial ceremonies of initiation, which have the twofold function of social formality (inauguration, heirarchy); and intentional artificial catalysis, or confirmation, of i).

What kind of spiritual experience does the person undergo?

Depends on the initiation. For Crowley's views, read One Star In Sight, and elsewhere.

Is it like the ordeals that you hear about in Shamanistic cultures?

Some can be. Shamanism is in my view the same type of thing as magic, or magick, or whatever you want to call it.

Can a person choose to stop an initiation once it starts?

Yes, but it's not likely to be pretty if you do.

Why are there some things that thelemites can't tell me unless I become initiated?

That would depend on the Thelemite, and the thing you ask. Maybe it's just privacy, maybe it's, erm, more. In some cases I've known, a hollow facade of mystery is all there is, and the "you will be initiated" line is rolled out as a convenient way to stop inconvenient questions, through the power which the established heirarchy has over you once you're in it. In other cases, though, it might be because you're asking something which geniuinely requires more advanced initiation (actual initiation I mean, not simply ceremonial or formalities, but a different and improved quality of consciousness) to grasp... which once attained means that the question changes, or vanishes.

Orders, in the sense of a club or whatever, are not required for initiation in the primary sense mentioned above, though they can perhaps catalyse it.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/08/2010 8:09 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
This second definition [a crisis] is the "real" initiation, with the first one [a ceremony] being an imitation of the second.

Is it possible to speak more precisely of what that crises is?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
16/08/2010 8:11 pm  

http://thelemicgoldendawn.net/documents/initiation.htm

This has some interesting stuff. I wander where I can get more stuff like this.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
16/08/2010 10:59 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Is it possible to speak more precisely of what that crises is?

It varies with the individual and the level of initiation.

The first initiation will always involve (include) an aspect of physical (Malkuth) crisis, such as illness, or pain, or a "lost-in-the-desert" adventure. The "initiation " part is where the sick, pain-ridden, exhausted candidate receives "inner" or "higher" insight as to controlling the situation. If the proper control is then exhibited for a suitable duration, the new, pain-free state is "locked in" or "fixed" in place.

This is the part where the fairy godmother taps the candidate on the crown with the magic wand - and a flash of light gives way to a new state of affairs.

The same applies to higher levels:
Emotional crisis = 2nd initiation (Jesod)
Mental crisis = 3rd initiation (Hod)
Social crisis = 4th initiation (Netzach)
Alignment crisis = Dominus Liminus (Paroketh)
Contact crisis = 5th initiation (Tiphereth)
Adjustment crisis = 6th initiation (Geburah)
Authority crisis = 7th initiation (Chesed)
Give it all up crisis = (Abyss)
Star crisis = 8th initiation (Binah)
etc ...


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/08/2010 1:51 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
Is it possible to speak more precisely of what that crises is?

It varies with the individual and the level of initiation.

The first initiation will always involve (include) an aspect of physical (Malkuth) crisis, such as illness, or pain, or a "lost-in-the-desert" adventure. The "initiation " part is where the sick, pain-ridden, exhausted candidate receives "inner" or "higher" insight as to controlling the situation.

So a person becomes physically sick or in pain or a "lost-in-the desert" adventure BEFORE they are initiated? So the initiation wont cause those things?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/08/2010 1:27 pm  

If done correctly the initiation should place you into an imprint state. During this imprint state you'll be presented with imagery, oaths, symbols, etc. The idea that some or all of these will take hold in you (imprint) and start a process of change.

Wilson, has a good write up of the initiatory process in Prometheus Rising.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
17/08/2010 2:51 pm  

As mentioned by me in http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4501.phtml (= the thread 'dark power/consciousness', AC authored writings both worthy and unworthy of what that should be expected from someone considered an enlightened adept, sometimes including both kind of writings in the same work, like for instance in his in parts channeled class A text The Vision and the Voice, where he in a footnote describes "certain tribes on the Terai"[= in the North of India] as in their temples worshipping "any half-monkeys that result" from sending "their women annually into the jungle."
Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/418/aetyr16.htm#3

The example above of authoring something unworthy of an enlightened adept, is not a one-off phenomenon on AC's part.

Here is another example from page 371 in his The Confessions of Aleister Crowley:

"The Indian renegades, from Lajpat Rai to Gandhi, are merely evidence that the sahib has given place to the competition wallah. India has not progressed in the last thousand years and will not in the next thousand. The biological impulse is expended."
Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter46.html

Here is once again another example from chapter 8 'The Three Schools of Magick'(third and last part) in Magic Without Tears:

"The Black School has always worked insidiously, by treachery. We need then not be surprised by finding that its most notable representative was the renegade follower of Blavatsky, Annie Besant, and that she was charged by her Black masters with the mission of persuading the world to accept for its Teacher a negroid Messiah. To make the humiliation more complete, a wretched creature was chosen who, to the most loathsome moral qualities, added the most fatuous imbecility. And then blew up!" Source: http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_08.html

Krishnamurti (1895-1986) was the "negroid Messiah" AC was referring to. Osho/Rajneesh/Bhagwan (1931-1990), considered by some to be 'an enlightened adept', is reputed to have called Krishnamurti the only living enlightened master who could get angry, and to have encourage his followers to "go to K's lectures, get there early to be sure of front row seats, agree with K about everything, such as "you should not wear your teacher's picture round your neck, you should not call him Bhagwan" etc. Rajneesh's followers would applaud this and K would go ballistic."
Source: http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=4771&sid=3a2225c9733c4ac9724dfe950e706593

RuleofRandom, in the thread 'Meeting of the Mages - Crowley pays a visit to Gurdjieff', you can read how Mahakala77 presents his book The Three Dangerous Magi, covering Gurdjieff, Osho and Aleister Crowley. Source: http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=38832&highlight=#38832

In the following link Bill Heidrick explains Thelema and describes AC's social skills as questionable, and his bussiness skills as nonexistent. Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJwyw06ea6A&feature=related This seems to have been recorded at the same time as the youtube-video pasted by Zardos to the 'Liber CDLXXTV. Os Abysmi vel Da'athr' thread.

My point with all this, is for it to be background-material to keep in mind when reflecting over the meaning of initation within Thelema as according to Aleister Crowley, and presented by him in this way:

"It is the Path to the realisation of your Self as the sole, the supreme, the absolute of all Truth, Beauty, Purity, Perfection!"

Right before presenting the above just mentioned meaning of initiation within Thelema, Crowley states that The Book of the Law cuts directly at the root of "a highly popular school of "occultists" which is 99 % an escape-mechanism", from "fear of death", from "the root-fear—fear of being alone, of being oneself,[my emphasis] of life itself", and that this fear-based "highly popular school of "occultists" carry with it "the sense of guilt." Source: Chapter LXXI()71: 'Morality' (second and last part) in Magic Without Tears.

Any standard[-s] of or for intiation or enlightenment within Thelema as understood by Aleister Crowley, are to be purely self referential and individualistic for anybody, on an 'each to herself basis', and me finding sides of - or aspects with - Aleister Crowley, to be "unworthy of an enlightened adept", has no bearing on Thelema's said purely self referential and individualistic standard[-s] of or for intiation or enlightenment, as accoring to Aleister Crowley.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
17/08/2010 3:16 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
So a person becomes physically sick or in pain or a "lost-in-the desert" adventure BEFORE they are initiated?

No, it's PART OF the initiation.

If we're talking about a formal, external, initiation ritual, then it's the "ordeal" that is represented in the rite (which almost always symbolizes pain or suffering - Shamanic stuff might actually hurt a bit). Crowley condescendingly described a masonic rite where the blindfolded candidate was led around a circle as the holy brethren kicked him in the butt. Ha, ha! But this represents the pain, disorientation and suffering that is part of the crisis that the candidate experiences as he she undergoes the "true" (internal) initiation experience.

Now, if we're talking about that real, inner, quantum shift in consciousness, then the "ordeal" is a vivid, dreadful dream, or a medical episode, or a bad trip, or a desert adventure that blooms in the life of the candidate (which almost always includes pain or suffering). In medicine, it's called a "healing crisis."

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So the initiation wont cause those things?

There are three possibilities:

(1) A person pays his or her fee to join the "Local Lodge of Thelema #418." He or she, in "normal" consciousness, then appears for an initiation ceremony. If the auric whomp of the Lodge is high enough to IMPOSE that dynamic, symbolic ritual on the candidate, then subsequently he or she goes through an amazingly similar experience (perhaps strung out for days or weeks) in his or her daily life. This does not happen as often as we like or every Christian baptism would give rise to a new Messiah - it depends on the individual's "path" leading him or her to the Lodge at the appropriate time, and it depends on the "whomp" (initiatory power or "transmission ability") of the Initiator and his or her assistants. But, if the conditions are fulfilled, then, Yes, the ritual "causes" these things. This is the archetype of the chicken coming before the egg.

(2) A person undergoes the inner "ceremony" of initiation, either in an amazing scenario in life, or in the (lucid) dream state, or in a self-imposed "vision quest" ordeal, or by visions on the inner planes. He or she may not even be aware of passing into a new form of "normal" consciousness. In this case, the egg has come before the chicken. Crowley wrote somewhere that an Initiation Ceremony should be the result of WORK ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED!

(3) If the inner experience and the outer event were to synchronize (happen at the same time), it would probably be rather spectacular. Note that all these matters ARE synchronized at a higher level (deeper into our consciousness).

So which is first? The chicken or the egg?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/08/2010 7:55 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
"Shiva" wrote:
So a person becomes physically sick or in pain or a "lost-in-the desert" adventure BEFORE they are initiated?

No, it's PART OF the initiation.

If we're talking about a formal, external, initiation ritual, then it's the "ordeal" that is represented in the rite (which almost always symbolizes pain or suffering - Shamanic stuff might actually hurt a bit). Crowley condescendingly described a masonic rite where the blindfolded candidate was led around a circle as the holy brethren kicked him in the butt. Ha, ha! But this represents the pain, disorientation and suffering that is part of the crisis that the candidate experiences as he she undergoes the "true" (internal) initiation experience.

Now, if we're talking about that real, inner, quantum shift in consciousness, then the "ordeal" is a vivid, dreadful dream, or a medical episode, or a bad trip, or a desert adventure that blooms in the life of the candidate (which almost always includes pain or suffering). In medicine, it's called a "healing crisis."

"RuleofRandom" wrote:
So the initiation wont cause those things?

There are three possibilities:

(1) A person pays his or her fee to join the "Local Lodge of Thelema #418." He or she, in "normal" consciousness, then appears for an initiation ceremony. If the auric whomp of the Lodge is high enough to IMPOSE that dynamic, symbolic ritual on the candidate, then subsequently he or she goes through an amazingly similar experience (perhaps strung out for days or weeks) in his or her daily life. This does not happen as often as we like or every Christian baptism would give rise to a new Messiah - it depends on the individual's "path" leading him or her to the Lodge at the appropriate time, and it depends on the "whomp" (initiatory power or "transmission ability") of the Initiator and his or her assistants. But, if the conditions are fulfilled, then, Yes, the ritual "causes" these things. This is the archetype of the chicken coming before the egg.

(2) A person undergoes the inner "ceremony" of initiation, either in an amazing scenario in life, or in the (lucid) dream state, or in a self-imposed "vision quest" ordeal, or by visions on the inner planes. He or she may not even be aware of passing into a new form of "normal" consciousness. In this case, the egg has come before the chicken. Crowley wrote somewhere that an Initiation Ceremony should be the result of WORK ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED!

(3) If the inner experience and the outer event were to synchronize (happen at the same time), it would probably be rather spectacular. Note that all these matters ARE synchronized at a higher level (deeper into our consciousness).

So which is first? The chicken or the egg?

I don't see how the second scenario conflicts with or is different from the first scenario.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
18/08/2010 3:35 pm  
"RuleofRandom" wrote:
I don't see how the second scenario conflicts with or is different from the first scenario.

There is no conflict implied. They are different only in that one happens "outside" first, and the other one happens "inside" first.

As I wrote: "So which is first? The chicken or the egg?"
No conflict, no ultimate difference - It's just a question of which one comes first.

There is the hint of an answer that whispers about the process being started by the aspirant realizing that he/she feels "separated" and thus he/she invokes "god" or the "self" - who/which then responds by sending information down the tube (the Tree or the Middle Pillar or the Hara Line, etc.), but that sense of "separation" and the impulse to "re-unite" are inherently planted by that "higher" source, and so it seems that it (the "higher" or "inner") came first.

So is "it" the chicken or the egg?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/08/2010 5:16 pm  

I think it's worth noting that not all initiation ceremonies are "magical" ceremonies, for iinstance the Masonic ceremonies, which are somewhat mystical, and ceremonies that mark some rite of passage or membership to a group or what have you.
I had at one time supposed that the OTO ceremonies were magical ceremonies, but found out that isn't always the case. An acquaintance of mine, who runs an occult bookstore and has been a practicing ceremonial magician for some time related a rather comical story to me. He told me that he quit the OTO right after the evening of his Third degree initiation ceremony, the reason being was that his Initiator who flew out to perform the ceremony, was awestruck and thrilled to meet a "real deal ceremonial magician who has even performed evocation to visible appearance? Wow!"
The gentleman, the Initiating officer, asked the fellow if he thought, at his level of experience, if it would be acceptable for him to perform the Star Ruby!!!! So he quit, he's still a Thelemite, but he is no longer a member of the OTO.


ReplyQuote
christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 2688
18/08/2010 5:26 pm  

As a result of skimming this thread it is also apparent to me that if we are truly open honest and self introspective with ourselves, that initiation can and does occur regardless of membership of any organisation.
the trials and tribulations of life if looked at 'properly' and used for self improvement and knowledge, through learning through mistakes allows us all the possibilities of initiation when used correctly, on our own.
that said there are immeasurable benefits to 'formal' initiation wtih a spiritual group, as this more powerful states to the universe, astrally and physically and mentally that 'i am ready come and find me' which allows further growth. but one shouldn't discount natural initiations in daily life, if one is open to them.
some things that come to mind as non formal initiations in Crowley's life as an example are his experiments with sex and drugs. They both entailed a modicum of emotional and physical suffering, which once overcome allowed him the benefit of such natural initiations. In other words betterment through struggle.
just my two cents.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/08/2010 5:59 pm  

There are 3 chiefs that initiate a aspirant in complete an utter silence...you must first cross the river.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
18/08/2010 10:05 pm  
"aleatoric" wrote:
There are 3 chiefs that initiate a aspirant in complete an utter silence...you must first cross the river.

At first glance, this statement appears to be a cryptic utterance of the Oracle of Delphi, or maybe something from Nostradamus. All I have to say is:

Yup! For some reason, the power of the trinity seems to be involved.

..."Two's company ... but three's an Order!"

Yup! The Rod of Initiation is applied (by three guys) in Silence.

..."But there sure is a lot of fireworks!"

Yup! Whether it be the Jordan, the Styx, or the River of no Return, there is that flowing current that must be braved and controlled before one gets to see the three dudes.

...Of course, we're talking about archetypal symbols that come into play in the "inner" (real and true) initiation ceremony. The "outer" (external) ceremonies are often intended to be copies or ceremonial duplicates of the inner process. The closer the two (inner & outer) synchronize, the more effective the ceremony will be.

Did you know that sometimes people actually use power plants and other wonderful libations in conjunction with initiation ceremonies - in order to assist that synchronicity?
Legal plants and libations of course!

It is always interesting to witness a candidate who undergoes a radical change in their energy field and in their consciousness - in direct conjunction with a ceremonial initiation. This means that, over a period of time of about one or two hours, a candidate enters a temple or a tent, is restrained, usually asked or forced to take an oath, undergoes a symbolic ordeal, succumbs, is somehow "resurrected" or "raised" again, and the glorious dawn of a new level of consciousness is "fixed" or "locked" into place by the initiating officer(s).

As I said, it is always interesting to witness a candidate who undergoes a radical change in their energy field and in their consciousness while this dramatic ceremony is being played out, and especially when the candidate and the initiating officers, and any attendant congregation have all tasted of that wine described by AC in Energized Enthusiasm.

This is the way it was done at Solar Lodge. This is a secret that was not disclosed in the text, and now it is a secret that is secret no more. Perhaps in the second edition of that book, or in its sequel, Deeper Inside Solar Lodge, people would be interested in the innermost details of this approach, and other similar "secrets?"

As I previously implied: The overall process is the same for everyone, but the individual details will vary according to the thoughtform-making capacity of the candidate.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/08/2010 10:20 pm  

It wasn't metaphorical, or a analogy- Those who aspire will be chosen (end up at the right place at the right time) -I am not an initiator -I have had contact. I am only cryptic about this since these chiefs can manifest a physical form,but you will not meet them,see their face (maybe a chin), talk to them, or know them. My only suggestion -Go camping (H.G.A.)


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/08/2010 4:13 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
What "real" secrets? Oh, how to access Binah; how to effectively heal; how to transmit (initiate) consciousness to a student; how to stop thinking; how to exit the body in astral projection; how to focus on one thing; etc.

Are you implying that these things are incommunicable because they have to be experienced? or simply because they are more than mere word in a book?


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
19/08/2010 5:55 pm  
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
... "real" secrets? Are you implying that these things are incommunicable because they have to be experienced? or simply because they are more than mere word in a book?

Both.

I can tell you how to drive a car, but when you get in for the first time, things don't usually go as planned. Nothing is "real" unless it can be experienced.

Of course they're more than mere words, they are dynamic archetypes in action ... but not everyone can employ them.

On the other hand, I have been able to teach people how to heal, how to use a diving rod, (sometimes) how to access Binah [temporarily, of course], how to astral project, with great success. There is a principle that says "once a person has performed a task in the presence of the one who taught that person, then thereafter that person will be able to do it alone. It is called "transmission" and (theoretically) it is employed in initiation ceremonies. It can be overwhelmingly powerful if done correctly.

But the key is that it must be done in the teacher's presence. So something is "transmitted" that is experience itself, but is beyond mere words.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2010 3:27 am  

So the teacher's presence is needed then...

I think of accesing Binah as being able to enter non-dual consciousness, hindu traditions refer to this as mahamudra or dzogchen, and yes, this implies receiving DIRECT instructions from a guru. Words are useless in this point of the road

I'd like to know how to heal, any tips or ideas?


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
20/08/2010 2:32 pm  
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
Are you implying that these things are incommunicable because they have to be experienced? or simply because they are more than mere word in a book?

Well, obviously they are more than mere words in a book. Reading a script of Hamlet will never clue you in to the blocking, stage direction, sets, or emotive technique of the actors-- you can't merely read the script and claim to understand the play, let alone act a part in it in front of an audience. This is but one reason why those who have merely read King's "Secret Rituals" or Regardie's "Golden Dawn" will still have little comprehension of the mysteries contained therein.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
20/08/2010 4:50 pm  
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
I'd like to know how to heal, any tips or ideas?

Start with Reiki. It is a formal "transmission" and it works. There are more powerful "transmissions" but you have to travel (sometimes a long ways) to an initiator, but Reiki is available worldwide and Independent Reiki Master Teachers are everywhere. All lineages start with Dr. Usui, but there are two schools of thought: (1) The elite charge outrageous prices and claim that the low-cost "independent" masters introduce "dark" energy. (2) The independents charge reasonable, low-cost fees, and laugh at the elite because the independent energy is exactly the same as the elite. Ha, ha!

Example: Elite: Level 1: $150; Level 2: $500; Level 3: $10,000.
This is THE Standard Fee schedule!

Example: Independent: Level 1: $50; Level 2: $65; Level 3: $300.
This is A Typical Fee schedule for Independent Master Teachers (Level 3) who are into the work and not the bucks!

I tell you all this so that you can shop wisely. Make sure the "Master" has a direct lineage list that leads back to Usui (This is the "charter" for all legitimate Reiki Teachers - it's the list!) and do it in person! Avoid Reiki self-taught instructions or "attunements" over the internet.

Just find a reasonably-priced, legitimate (listed) teacher and go and get "attuned" at level I. Forget any higher levels for now. Upon this Reiki energy, one can build more powerful techniques, but that first attunement (transmission or initiation) seems to be necessary as a physical, hands-on ceremony. It takes less than 3 minutes and many teachers will want you to attend a 6-hour course lecture/class. Others (like myself) are willing to provide the transmission with a short lecture and answering any and all questions (about 1 hour total, including "small talk"), at a minimal fee.

Shop around. Do it! Get back to me after you've become Level 1 (no oaths by the way) and want to become an even more powerful shaman.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2010 6:27 pm  
"Walterfive" wrote:
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
Are you implying that these things are incommunicable because they have to be experienced? or simply because they are more than mere word in a book?

Well, obviously they are more than mere words in a book. Reading a script of Hamlet will never clue you in to the blocking, stage direction, sets, or emotive technique of the actors-- you can't merely read the script and claim to understand the play

That's like saying "you can't merely read anything and claim to understand it."

It depends what your capacity for understanding is.

Of course you can read a script and understand the play.

Exactly the same way you can read a score and understand an opera - all of it. If you are able. Sure, not everyone can, but lots do.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2010 6:36 pm  

Regardie himself advised self-initiation using the GD rituals, through what he called "active imagination". Maybe he was wrong in doing so, whatever, but he did suggest it in various places.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/08/2010 8:44 pm  

Greetings

"Shiva" wrote:
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
I'd like to know how to heal, any tips or ideas?

Start with Reiki. It is a formal "transmission" and it works. There are more powerful "transmissions" but you have to travel (sometimes a long ways) to an initiator, but Reiki is available worldwide and Independent Reiki Master Teachers are everywhere. All lineages start with Dr. Usui, but there are two schools of thought: (1) The elite charge outrageous prices and claim that the low-cost "independent" masters introduce "dark" energy. (2) The independents charge reasonable, low-cost fees, and laugh at the elite because the independent energy is exactly the same as the elite. Ha, ha!

Example: Elite: Level 1: $150; Level 2: $500; Level 3: $10,000.
This is THE Standard Fee schedule!

Example: Independent: Level 1: $50; Level 2: $65; Level 3: $300.
This is A Typical Fee schedule for Independent Master Teachers (Level 3) who are into the work and not the bucks!

I tell you all this so that you can shop wisely. Make sure the "Master" has a direct lineage list that leads back to Usui (This is the "charter" for all legitimate Reiki Teachers - it's the list!) and do it in person! Avoid Reiki self-taught instructions or "attunements" over the internet.

Just find a reasonably-priced, legitimate (listed) teacher and go and get "attuned" at level I. Forget any higher levels for now. Upon this Reiki energy, one can build more powerful techniques, but that first attunement (transmission or initiation) seems to be necessary as a physical, hands-on ceremony. It takes less than 3 minutes and many teachers will want you to attend a 6-hour course lecture/class. Others (like myself) are willing to provide the transmission with a short lecture and answering any and all questions (about 1 hour total, including "small talk"), at a minimal fee.

Shop around. Do it! Get back to me after you've become Level 1 (no oaths by the way) and want to become an even more powerful shaman.

I agree Shiva! 🙂

I would just like to add that there is also a new Reiki method/no-method: the Avalokitesvara Reiki. The activation is given for free and its use doesn't include any specific symbols. Instead, the practitioner stays aligned during the session and uses the symbols that are given to him at the moment and then imprints them either on the body or on the aura. Actually one must be ready to use everything that exists as a symbol... The only exchange for a healing session is a wish for those in need.

A year ago we’ve founded a small non-profit organization here in Greece to support this form of Reiki, although presently there is only one person abroad (in New York) who can give the Avalokitesvara Reiki activation.

Regards
Hecate


ReplyQuote
Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
20/08/2010 9:31 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
Are you implying that these things are incommunicable because they have to be experienced? or simply because they are more than mere word in a book?

Well, obviously they are more than mere words in a book. Reading a script of Hamlet will never clue you in to the blocking, stage direction, sets, or emotive technique of the actors-- you can't merely read the script and claim to understand the play

That's like saying "you can't merely read anything and claim to understand it."

Yeah, I figured somebody would make an illogical claim like that.

No, it's not like saying that at all. A script is but one part of a performance.

Maybe *you* think you can read a script of Hamlet, and understand it, but someone who's played the role before an audience wouldn't think you had much depth of understanding of it, and they'd be right; that only comes through study, memorization, rehearsals, and performances before a live audience. You ever performed on-stage as an actor? Directed a play? We won't even discuss what a great actor, such as Laurence Olivier or David Tennant brings to the part, or how their performances differ, suffice to say you'll never learn those differences by reading a script.

Likewise your comparison of opera-- I suppose there are those savants who can pick up a operatic score and hear the 8-part harmony in their head, and the full 64 piece orchestra, but they still don't experience the actual performance, its nuances and variations, the way the orchestra echoes like thunder in the back an acoustically designed music hall.

A properly performed and presented initiation ritual is like these examples. There are many points that aren't mentioned in the script. Many points of instruction about "patter" and "business" that one only learns from watching other Initiators of knowledge and experience. Many hidden meanings in the signs, words, colors of props, symbols used that are not explained, and that likely go right over the heads of people who merely read the rituals. I know this because I've attended and participated in dozens of initiations over the years as an officer, and because I used to be a chartered initiator who spent some time looking into these matters-- these points are often not conciously picked up by those who take the ritual, although a good initiator explains them afterwards, in the knowledge lecture, which the books in question *certainly* don't contain. I could easily point out two or three in the Minerval Degree or 1st Degree that any O.T.O. initiate would immediately recognize, but not one in fifty who read Francis King's version would grab hold of, and that's just the plain and simple way that it is-- one can't read "Duncan's Rituals" and think one understands the initiatory mysteries of Freemasonry, either, I wouldn't imagine.

Would anyone in an Initiatory Tradition who thinks all their initiatory secrets can be plainly found in the scripts of those rituals please raise their hand?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2010 12:03 am  

How does one get initiated when they live in an area that's no where near an O.T.O or AA lineage?


ReplyQuote
newneubergOuch2
(@newneubergouch2)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 287
21/08/2010 2:23 am  

I agree with walterfive. Ones understanding of Thelema and Crowley is deepened by going through the initiations, and perhaps later on also taking part as an officer.

I had read `most` of Crowley and related materials for years before and thought the initiations were then not worth going through - (also because I had read some of them too-and then thought I knew and understood it all-stupid me, I also ruined a few of the good bits:().

Though the initiate is the central figure in a mystery `play` to think of it purely in terms of being a play is misguiding, it is an initiation, something that must be experienced.

There is a gap I now see between those who have gone through the initiations and those who haven`t - it is just a simple fact. I have seen people early into Thelema/Crowley etc go through them and more `old hands, and the effect has been the same.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2010 3:53 am  
"Walterfive" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
"Walterfive" wrote:
"Kiyoharu" wrote:
Are you implying that these things are incommunicable because they have to be experienced? or simply because they are more than mere word in a book?

Well, obviously they are more than mere words in a book. Reading a script of Hamlet will never clue you in to the blocking, stage direction, sets, or emotive technique of the actors-- you can't merely read the script and claim to understand the play

That's like saying "you can't merely read anything and claim to understand it."

Yeah, I figured somebody would make an illogical claim like that.

What's so illogical about it, Walterfive? (and by the way, I'm simply arguing this particular point - the matter of ritual is a bit different imo).

Your claim that you can't fully understand a play by reading it is not true.

How do you think theatre companies select new plays to produce? They read the script. They understand it fully before selecting it, and then producing it, by reading the script.

And many's the time an actor has played a part many times and is still less "understanding" of the contents of the play than someone who has never seen it or participated in it but merely read the script. This is common enough.

No, it's not like saying that at all. A script is but one part of a performance.

The script is the script - it is the programme itself of the performance.

Maybe *you* think you can read a script of Hamlet, and understand it, but someone who's played the role before an audience wouldn't think you had much depth of understanding of it, and they'd be right; that only comes through study, memorization, rehearsals,

Maybe *you* think that you (or I, or anybody) can't, but I assure you, many thousands do all the time.

Are you involved in show biz, Walter? Actually, many, many people think they can read the script of Hamlet, and understand it, and they would be right - all without having performed it. It's not a direct parallel with magical initiation ceremonies either - but for the point we're discussing the performance of a play is simply a presentation.

Also, the entire business of performance of a play (or opera) involves concentrating on all sorts of things of a purely technical nature, which distract from getting the sort of overall impression (liable to repetition and reflection and meditation and absorbtion and assimilation) which a reader (or audience member) can enjoy.

and performances before a live audience. You ever performed on-stage as an actor? Directed a play?

I was going to ask you the same question - for me, yes; in addition, I've participated in and organised more complicated things like masques and early operas (which in the early days often were reasonably occult as well 🙂 ), as well, and am presently involved in training people for such things academically and professionally.

Perhaps more to the point, like you, I've participated in group rituals as well. There are some parallels but I don't think it's an identical thing (not that you said it was - but it's perhaps worth mentioning the distinction just so we don't get confused).

The key difference is that with a ("magical") initiation ritual there is a candidate upon whom direct action of the rite is supposed to have an effect of transformation - a subject. That isn't the case with plays (not even if there is a character who is playing a Candidate!). There are many important points of difference. My main point is that you can read a script and understand the entire thing. It's not such a big deal.

Also, you've ignored the fact that Regardie advised what I mentioned in my previous post - that one can self-initiate using the GD rituals. See below.

It is also a long-acknowledged truism that all initiation is essentially Self-initiation. I'd say "most" rather than "all", personally, to cover when the matter appears to have come upon one unawares. Ironically, one of my most dramatic personal initiatory experiences was in fact produced by simply reading a book, and I wasn't even trying to do anything, and was even resistant to the contents, if anything. Something 'clicked', and I have not been the same since (and neither has anything else!). I guess it depends on the writer to a certain extent.

I agree that insights and transformations can occur by a great performance of a great work, however, whether for fellow actors, musicians, or audience members. But they can also occur through a "great reading" of the script. It happens all the time.

"earlier, Walterfive" wrote:
This is but one reason why those who have merely read King's "Secret Rituals" or Regardie's "Golden Dawn" will still have little comprehension of the mysteries contained therein.

So much for Israel Regardie's statement:

"Let me therefore urge upon the sincere reader whose wish it is to study this magical system, to pay great attention to the scheme of the grade rituals, to obtain a bird's eye view of the whole, to study every point, its movement and teaching. This should be repeated again and again, until the mind moves easily from one point of the ritual to another. The synthetic outline of those rituals presented in this introduction should be found helpful in assisting in this task. Let him also study the diagrams of the Temple lay-out, and build up in his imagination a clear and vivid picture of that Temple together with the appropriate officers and their movements. Then it will be a simple matter to devise a system of self-initiation."
- The Golden Dawn, Introduction, p.45 (88)

We won't even discuss what a great actor, such as Laurence Olivier or David Tennant brings to the part, or how their performances differ, suffice to say you'll never learn those differences by reading a script.

Learning the differences in performance style has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the script is identical in each case - except to support my point that you can understand and even experience the effect of a great play by simply reading the script -- which Israel Regardie (for one) extends to magical initiation ceremonies (including the Golden Dawn ones, which you erroneously mention are exempt from this) by his remarks above.

Likewise your comparison of opera-- I suppose there are those savants who can pick up a operatic score and hear the 8-part harmony in their head, and the full 64 piece orchestra, but they still don't experience the actual performance, its nuances and variations, the way the orchestra echoes like thunder in the back an acoustically designed music hall.

They do, actually - every bit! It is not an experience of a phyiscal performance, I agree - just an ideal one 😉

A properly performed and presented initiation ritual is like these examples. There are many points that aren't mentioned in the script. Many points of instruction about "patter" and "business" that one only learns from watching other Initiators of knowledge and experience. Many hidden meanings in the signs, words, colors of props, symbols used that are not explained, and that likely go right over the heads of people who merely read the rituals. I know this because I've attended and participated in dozens of initiations over the years as an officer, and because I used to be a chartered initiator who spent some time looking into these matters-- these points are often not conciously picked up by those who take the ritual, although a good initiator explains them afterwards, in the knowledge lecture, which the books in question *certainly* don't contain. I could easily point out two or three in the Minerval Degree or 1st Degree that any O.T.O. initiate would immediately recognize, but not one in fifty who read Francis King's version would grab hold of, and that's just the plain and simple way that it is-- one can't read "Duncan's Rituals" and think one understands the initiatory mysteries of Freemasonry, either, I wouldn't imagine.

The quality of "O.T.O." (Inc.) initiators and initiations is something which varies to such an astonishingly mad extent (usually bumbling along the bottom from pretty much everything I have heard, and witnessed) that I have to say I'm not even sure the script itself is particularly good. It's certainly never grabbed me, from the available evidence - but horses for courses, I suppose.

I agree that the experience of performance (of a rite, opera, or play) differs from the experience of reading and meditating with it - just as the experience of an actor differs from an audience member, all of which differ from the author's experience of composition, the director's of direction, etc.

However, in every case it is the capacity of the individual for understanding which matters the most. And many is the case where rituals (and plays and operas) have been mangled and destroyed in performance (officers forgetting lines, etc., such as in one O.T.O. Inc. rite I observed a decade ago) whereas the script itself, when read, remains inviolate.

Would anyone in an Initiatory Tradition who thinks all their initiatory secrets can be plainly found in the scripts of those rituals please raise their hand?

I can see Israel Regardie's ascending skeletal limb from here (vide supra) . . .

best regards,
N.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2010 4:30 am  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I had read `most` of Crowley and related materials for years before and thought the initiations were then not worth going through - (also because I had read some of them too-and then thought I knew and understood it all-stupid me, I also ruined a few of the good bits:().

This happens in performance sometimes, too, so don't worry!

Though the initiate is the central figure in a mystery `play` to think of it purely in terms of being a play is misguiding, it is an initiation, something that must be experienced.

I agree entirely - and the experience of an initiation is not confined to formal ceremonies.

There is a gap I now see between those who have gone through the initiations and those who haven`t - it is just a simple fact.

I agree - but not all those who have "gone through the initiations" necessarily bothered with participating in formal ceremonies.

And not all those (exactly what proportion is up for grabs 😉 ) who have participated (whether as officers or candidates) in formal ceremonies of initiation have "gone through the initiations" in fact, rather than mere symbol.

That much has always seemed abundantly clear in my experience.

😀
N.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2010 4:35 am  

Shiva,
"Deeper Inside Solar Lodge".....patiently waiting!

In the Night of Pan,
N.O.X


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
21/08/2010 4:46 am  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
There is a gap I now see between those who have gone through the initiations and those who haven`t - it is just a simple fact.

This "gap" is described as:
"The Veil of the Ashram - An "Ashram" is commonly known as a place or community of spiritual study. Actually, it is the energetic influence of the Master, or central figure, of a system. This Veil separates the common person from the knowledge and consciousness of the Outer Order. Internally, this Veil separates a person's mundane consciousness from the consciousness of their own, aligned Persona (the personality – the physical, emotional, and "lower" mental bodies)."

"The Veil of the Ashram" is the First of several veils listed at:
http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/20revel.ht m"> http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/20revel.htm

Have you ever heard about The Dance of the Seven Veils ?


ReplyQuote
newneubergOuch2
(@newneubergouch2)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 287
21/08/2010 5:56 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
That much has always seemed abundantly clear in my experience.N.

I also used to go on about `self initiation` - After going through the formal rituals myself my opinion has changed somewhat- they both have their place but are like chalk and cheese, apples and oranges.

When you have actually gone through some of the OTO initiations then you can fully comment, .......in my experience. 😀


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
21/08/2010 6:55 am  

Fully comment?

Do you mean like this ?


ReplyQuote
wolfangel
(@wolfangel)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 32
21/08/2010 3:35 pm  

It seems their is also another element to just reading often overlooked. When i come here to read i am not just getting an impression of text on a screen but an intuitive view of the expression of people as personalities.

Small inferences are created and mental scenarios of the kind of people i am reading. The same is true of any text. Not just the details of the text involving people but all the factors presented as a body of information reflect a body of mental and emotional experience given expression through the medium of language as best as that particular culture permits.

Then examine the idea of a spiritual text, Even perhaps as a living body of information that reflects some kind of divine attribution. Some would ascribe this to Liber Al. Then could it be argued that a living body of information in the sense of a logos initiates one into a different kind perception/spirit.

Arguably that information/Spirit has to be lived to be known and communicated in total, But is this not what inspires the recording of the words in the first place, the need to communicate an experience. Then do these words act as a sympathetic link to the experiences of the writer ?

Does any referential expression represent a link to the experiencer ? In my view and understanding yes. The human being and their body of experiences are not separate from the expressions they form and create, i use sympathetic in the magical sense.

Intuitively then it is possible to experience IMHO a body of words as an experience of living spiritual information. Just as the Gnostic Gospels maybe approached this way so can Liber Al for example. The words and the arrangement of them are the Spell ing the Grammar (Grimoire). It may be a very animistic and fetishistic relationship to words and language in one sense confirmed as much by religion as it is science with its attachment to word and sign.(Animistic relationship to tarot in the Book of Thoth comes to mind)

These words and signs are loaded with historical weight, Consciousness passed on from generation to generation, giving particular body's of words an ancestral significance unparalleled by almost any post modern relationship to language. The sound of the word carries an initiation into a whole set of correspondence that open out in the imagination of the reader as does the sign and symbol, which also stretch across the history of consciousness.

When i read, this is how i write (reading and writing being the same process) when i am at my best, the body of words i produce is a reflection of my own development and experiences, how they have characterised me in my relationship to the language i produce. I see the same in what i read from others as i write them into my conscious experience through there expressions.

Initiation is often expressed as an end point or a beginning, i seem to remember from somewhere that it is a continual process, the body of words seems to evolve to the perpetual initiation accordingly.

We give of ourselves when we give our words written or spoken.


ReplyQuote
Shiva
(@shiva)
Not a Rajah
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 5174
21/08/2010 4:03 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Fully comment? Do you mean like this ?

I certainly enjoyed following your link ... even unto two weblinks deeper into the heart of the matter beyond the initial Koenig epistle. That means I got lost for an hour or so chasing down "comments."

In all that I saw upon my journey, I perceived that the comments were exposing political realities (confusion?) from an external viewpoint.

As far as "fully commenting" on initiation ceremonies, I would like to point out that everybody's going to need at least one boost, one ignition, one ceremony of initiation or rebirth or transmission. The only guys who get to bypass the required "hands-on" ceremony are "avatars" who come in fully awake and stay that way.

I am a great fan of the concepts and procedures of self-initiation, but somewhere along the line, everyone (but an avatar) has to get that little "jolt" transmitted to them on the physical plane by someone who is operating at a "higher" level.

There are many degrees and grades and levels, and just as many orders and teachers. You just have to connect with one of them, once, for that short-lived transfer; after that the rest can be self-initiated.

Or one could do all the self-initiation work, and then be drawn to an event wherein their efforts are recognized - again, by a physical plane ceremony.

"Just one look! That's all it took!"

All the rest is politics and business and social interaction and (god help us in our hour of need) sometimes ego creeps in and scandals and controversies ensue.


ReplyQuote
wolfangel
(@wolfangel)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 32
21/08/2010 4:53 pm  

Something forgotten easily and often turned into a duality unconsciously is that reading is a physical action, as is thinking, knowing, being a body of translated experience, and feeling the awareness that comes with those experiences, the separation is created by that which needs to make itself distinct. Thought and feeling is a physical action that we engage with so frequently and regularly we have a tendency to no longer think of it as a physical action what so ever.

Thought is an experience we are having now, not separate in anyway from the physical actions we may take but that is not to say the relationship is exact. To read is to experience as is to write, simple things we consign to being non experiential out of their unconscious habit.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/08/2010 8:42 am  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
That much has always seemed abundantly clear in my experience.N.

I also used to go on about `self initiation` - After going through the formal rituals myself my opinion has changed somewhat- they both have their place but are like chalk and cheese, apples and oranges.

When you have actually gone through some of the OTO initiations then you can fully comment, .......in my experience. 😀

If the Oath is an expression of the Will it would indeed be the case that self initiation and group initiation are essentially the same. Although reducing the Oath to Will would seem IMO to be a way of reducing initiation into a kind of parlor trick. It works because of the intense symbolic significance of the and the amount of participation that is required. Fear is without a doubt the most significant and the most binding primary bonding function involved in initiation. Therefor it would seem that the same structure of desire that predicates ones entry into such a pact would also inevitably lead to a desire to "tempt" the spirits as it were. This of course means that an attempt to create two distinct realities will inevitably fail. But I do not think that that is something that Crowley would disagree with or even disapprove of. Indeed if it is one's will then one is not obligated to remain in the Order.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/08/2010 10:39 am  

I was reading through the Portal Ritual in Regardies Golden Dawn book recently where I found this:

For if in the mystic sphere of Truth, the way of Initiation may be trodden alone, yet in another Sphere, it hath a three-fold aspect. Part that can be given to man from without, part that can be attained by man himself, part that can only come from the Divine. Now, in the Order, you were given intellectual teaching, and won your Grades in tests of what was taught. Here, you must prove that you have truly attained thus far of your own strength, and after, you may progress by the higher Soul within you

I think the "sphere of truth" is a reference to Emeth which relates to Tiphareth (see Gates of Light). The Portal Grade is intermediate before Adeptus Minor at Tiphareth.

The suggestion is that if you are at the level of "the mystic sphere of truth" (Tiphareth) you can go it alone cause you are in touch with your HGA. But, if you are not the Messiah, initiation initially works in the three-fold manner described.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
24/08/2010 10:51 am  
"nashimiron" wrote:
I was reading through the Portal Ritual in Regardies Golden Dawn book recently where I found this:

For if in the mystic sphere of Truth, the way of Initiation may be trodden alone, yet in another Sphere, it hath a three-fold aspect. Part that can be given to man from without, part that can be attained by man himself, part that can only come from the Divine. Now, in the Order, you were given intellectual teaching, and won your Grades in tests of what was taught. Here, you must prove that you have truly attained thus far of your own strength, and after, you may progress by the higher Soul within you

I think the "sphere of truth" is a reference to Emeth which relates to Tiphareth (see Gates of Light). The Portal Grade is intermediate before Adeptus Minor at Tiphareth.

The suggestion is that if you are at the level of "the mystic sphere of truth" (Tiphareth) you can go it alone cause you are in touch with your HGA. But, if you are not the Messiah, initiation initially works in the three-fold manner described.

Well in another sense it could be described as different layers of consciousness and unconsciousness with the collective consciousness being the deepest layer of will.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
30/08/2010 9:42 pm  

ruleofrandom, you seem particluarly worried that you have broken ties with one form of the order or another.

look, magick is about being an empowered individual, with or without the order or the grop you can still attain in this the Aeon of Horus.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/09/2010 9:51 am  
"AEternitas" wrote:
ruleofrandom, you seem particluarly worried that you have broken ties with one form of the order or another.

look, magick is about being an empowered individual, with or without the order or the grop you can still attain in this the Aeon of Horus.

I agree.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/09/2010 11:02 am  

I haven't seen Inception yet but it seems like it describes a lot of the things I am going through. The name inception has a similar meaning to initiation.


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/09/2010 12:13 pm  

Inception is ... an Inception!

See it!


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/09/2010 3:02 pm  

I haven't seen Play-Mate of the Apes yet, but I reckon it's got loads of things in it I'd like to be going through. 😈


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/09/2010 3:25 am  
"newneubergOuch2" wrote:
I agree with walterfive. Ones understanding of Thelema and Crowley is deepened by going through the initiations, and perhaps later on also taking part as an officer.

I had read `most` of Crowley and related materials for years before and thought the initiations were then not worth going through - (also because I had read some of them too-and then thought I knew and understood it all-stupid me, I also ruined a few of the good bits:().

Though the initiate is the central figure in a mystery `play` to think of it purely in terms of being a play is misguiding, it is an initiation, something that must be experienced.

There is a gap I now see between those who have gone through the initiations and those who haven`t - it is just a simple fact. I have seen people early into Thelema/Crowley etc go through them and more `old hands, and the effect has been the same.

Well you are right it is not just a play. However the defining act may in fact be the Oath and the cosmic situation that puts on in is it not?


ReplyQuote
 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
03/09/2010 8:13 am  
"Noctifer" wrote:
Inception is ... an Inception!

See it!

Well that's what I'm afraid of. Maybe I unwittingly initiated the entire planet.


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 3
Share: