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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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24/05/2010 12:39 pm  

My suggestion as an alternative to arguing over various approaches to Thelema:

Question for all: Behind all various approaches to Thelema, what is the essential quality of Thelema?

Azidonis, please, seriously, your last remarks in a recently closed thread, about Erwin's replies to you being both "typical and expected", and maybe due to something "pathological", make you look really petty-minded when in the first place, asking him about if he has experienced or practised aproaches that he obviously detests, and consider extraneous to Thelema. A position which he clearly presents - and makes available for everyone - on his site.

But I give you the benefit of the doubt, expecting you to usually act like a greater and smarter person.:wink:

A remark to all: The subjectmatter in this thread is not arguing about various approaches to Thelema, but presenting what that to you is the essential quality of Thelema If someone feels tempted to derail from that subjectmatter, or are derailing from the subjectmatter, please do the Thelemic thing and exercise the power of your will in ignoring and/or suppressing such derailments.

IMPORTANT: As an asisstance for all who will reply to this thread, I hereby provide arguments from two important opposite positions on Thelema's most holy The Book of The Law. Those who have already provided a reply, can of course provide a new reply for the the purpose of clarification, and/or adding one's position on the so called "The Tunis Comment."

Here are arguments from both of those opposite positions on Thelema's most holy The Book of The Law:

First: Arguments for a literal interpretation of the "The Tunis Comment:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gvupZqZQlo
'Thelema - The "Tunis" Comment'

Second: Arguments for a less literal interpretation of the "The Tunis Comment:"

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-printview-t-3694-start-0.phtml

The hyperlink right above this sentence is the source to the following text:

"Erwin Hessle has a nice essay on the Comment here: http://www.erwinhessle.com/writings/comment.php , and he basically proposes that the kind of "study" being forbidden here is the study of the Book to determine whether a specific action is Thelemic -- and that this is "forbidden" because it's a gross misunderstanding of Thelema.

Essentially, it's fine to consult Liber AL to figure out what Thelema actually is. If someone said, "Thelema consists of the worship of the Hindu God Shiva," then one could point to the Book and provide evidence that this is incorrect. But it's not fine to consult Liber AL to determine how you should act. It's your will that determines how you act, not some text. So, for example, if someone asked, "Hmm, is it 'Thelemic' to give to charity?" and started looking up verses to see if he should give to charity, he would be demonstrating that he's totally missed the point of Thelema. That's the kind of "study" or "discussion" that's being forbidden."

My reply to this thread:

***(Important: I support the less literal interpretation of the "The Tunis Comment.")***

On one's own authority only based, clarity and foucus regarding all. = The essential quality of Thelema.

Explanations:

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." = On one's own authority only based

"Love is the law," = regarding all - love here meaning the inherently relational quality of existence.

"love under will." = clarity and foucus - meaning will in its optimal form, clear and focused.

My arrogant claim about what Thelema is in it self: A Law with the most capital first letter, that Thelemites are striving to act in accordance with.

Relevant quotes from: The Book of the Law Chapter I:
"39. The word of the Law is THELEMA.

40. Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three

Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

Replies already provided:

"synchromorph93" wrote:
The essential quality of Thelema is simple: "know thyself." 🙂
"sonofthestar" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. My answer would be:

That which I have already proved, and what I will prove.

There you have it---as being sufficient enough of a very short answer,
to the original question,
so far as "I" am concerned.

Eventually, we can see if most of us have the same basic concept in mind,
though worded in uniquely different ways;
or if such answers are wildly divergent in a very most apparent way. Love is the law, love under will.

"Azidonis" wrote:
93,

In my opinion, the two "Big Steps", the K&C and the crossing of the Abyss.

93 93/93


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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24/05/2010 1:18 pm  

The essential quality of Thelema for me is True Will, and the idea that through a combination of mystical and magical practices I will come to be increasingly aware of True Will and in particular the role that I as an apparent individual have to fulfill in the realisation of True Will.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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24/05/2010 1:38 pm  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law,

Well stated Michael! I would like to add to that the concept of "love under will". I.e., the Will is greater than the will, and both are greater than the concept of love. The Piscean era emphasized love and compassion, and now we are moving into a space where the True Will is emphasized over love.

Another way to look at it is that the perspective of "love under will" is a very psychologically healthy view because, among other reasons, it puts into focus a healthy perspective of taking care of the self before extending a hand to others in the name of service.

love is the law, love under will.


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Patriarch156
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24/05/2010 3:32 pm  

As expressed in the previous thread I think it is a mistake to approach definition through reductionism when it comes to Thelema.

Thelema is not just a bunch of one-things competing for hegemony, but rather an unique synthesis of many-things by its Prophet the Beast 666, where the many-things becomes more than the sum of their parts.

If you however have to boil it down of course the essetial quality, then Thelema is the Law: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law as expressed in its essential document the Book of the Law.

But as that Law as Crowley points out can both be misunderstood and misapplied it necessitates commentary and this commentary gives rise to the system or religion of Thelema, that is the particular synthesis developed by 666.


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Azidonis
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24/05/2010 4:59 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Azidonis, please, seriously, your last remarks in a recently closed thread, about Erwin's replies to you being both "typical and expected", and maybe due to something "pathological", make you look really petty-minded when in the first place, asking him about if he has experienced or practised aproaches that he obviously detests, and consider extraneous to Thelema. A position which he clearly presents - and makes available for everyone - on his site.

But I give you the benefit of the doubt, expecting you to usually act like a greater and smarter person.:wink:

93,

A "greater and smarter person" would have left that issue inside of the thread that Paul locked.

93 93/93


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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24/05/2010 5:54 pm  
"Patriarch156" wrote:
As expressed in the previous thread I think it is a mistake to approach definition through reductionism when it comes to Thelema.

Thelema is not just a bunch of one-things competing for hegemony, but rather an unique synthesis of many-things by its Prophet the Beast 666, where the many-things becomes more than the sum of their parts.

If you however have to boil it down of course the essetial quality, then Thelema is the Law: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law as expressed in its essential document the Book of the Law.

But as that Law as Crowley points out can both be misunderstood and misapplied it necessitates commentary and this commentary gives rise to the system or religion of Thelema, that is the particular synthesis developed by 666.

I appreciate and take your point, Patriarch156. However I regard The Book of the Law as the primary source. Crowley's various commentaries I take as interesting secondary material; just my preference. Not wishing to reignite an old and overly-trodden debate, but the religious aspects of Thelema are not of primary interest to me.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Patriarch156
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24/05/2010 5:59 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
I appreciate and take your point, Patriarch156. However I regard The Book of the Law as the primary source. Crowley's various commentaries I take as interesting secondary material; just my preference. Not wishing to reignite an old and overly-trodden debate, but the religious aspects of Thelema are not of primary interest to me.

Best wishes,

Michael.

No problem, I do not begrudge you your particular interests. Considering I have very little interest in your particular religious activities, ideas and work, it would have been rather hypocritical of me to demand that you not be allowed to express similar disinterest in other points of views. To each their own has always been my point of view 🙂

One small correction: As far as Book of the Law as the primary source goes, I am not really aware of anything I wrote that would indicate that I was of any other opinion. In fact, given that I wrote "If you however have to boil it down of course the essetial quality, then Thelema is the Law: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law as expressed in its essential document the Book of the Law." I would argue that I wrote just that.


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 Anonymous
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24/05/2010 6:04 pm  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Question for all: Behind all various approaches to Thelema, what is the essential quality of Thelema?

True Will.


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Aleisterion
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24/05/2010 6:18 pm  

I would go further by adding that the True Will is the unlimited potential of the mind, or the Genius of man.


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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24/05/2010 6:27 pm  
"Patriarch156" wrote:
oint of view 🙂

One small correction: As far as Book of the Law as the primary source goes, I am not really aware of anything I wrote that would indicate that I was of any other opinion.

Neither did I intend to suggest that you were of any other opinion.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Patriarch156
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24/05/2010 6:35 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Neither did I intend to suggest that you were of any other opinion.

Thanks for the correction. But even if you did, no harm done, merely wanted to clarify my own point of view 🙂


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 Anonymous
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24/05/2010 7:08 pm  

The mind is physical as is the body.

The mind however is a symbolic system, and symbols can relate false or notions, as representation is not reality. The desires are the results of representations which may or may not match actual physical reality. Where as the TRUE WILL is the reality, it is the desires tested to reality. Which is to say the HGA is the True self, the image that guides one to the reality of the self, rather than the ideal representation.

The self image that is a collection of untested ideals and misconceptions is the Ego, which is to say the personality. An infant that does not know the limits of it's body sees something it wants, up high, so it thinks it will float over and get it, It stretches and shakes it's arms and legs and gets frustrated, then cries. Thus it learns that it is a body and just wanting a think does not make it happen. It can either learn that crying works or does not work to call the mother.

A child whose mother does not respond to the crying learns that others and the world are indifferent to it. This can continue through life as a fundamental conception of it's self image and it's idea of the world. This is the Ego, the false personality, the desires are based on these unquestioned self images.

The TRUE WILL is discovered by actually testing these conceptions, and being open to change them based on the results of the scientific investigation, without regards to one's personal feelings and defense mechanisms to keep up the self image that does not match experience, under scientific controls.

As you build a second True self image, (The original will persist and be primary) so the influence of this new constructed Self image the HGA will exist as a parallel ego, that intrudes on the deeper conditioned self, a silent voice urging one against original deeper conditioning.

When the Abyss is crossed, the HGA triumphs over the original ego, so that the new SELF that is open to testing it's pre-conceptions against reality, is left. This is not a solid or set Self rather an openness to experience directly without defaulting to any Ideals.


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sonofthestar
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24/05/2010 7:32 pm  

93!

Here are some concepts,
which can be approached in various ways literal or metaphorical,
according to the individual make up of those who would ponder.

If we start with a basic premise, that
the constituents of Thelema are Life, Light, Love, and Liberty...
being as it were, the nature of the "Law of the Strong"....
we might then come to consider...
What Life?
What Light?
What Love?
What Liberty?

How are these 4, to be apprehended...
according to what we each individually understand,
in relation to them... as to feeling the experience of something,
that either can be defined, cannot be defined, or
can only somewhat be defined...?
Are these 4, "tangibly" manifested...as "knowable" ?
Are they merely, mental constructs, requiring some element of "action"
on our part, in order to be realized?

What exactly, if it can be worded accurately, is the Life of Thelema;
the Light of Thelema; the Love, and the Liberty of Thelema?
Though they be One in a Supernal sense, do they in fact manifest
in perceptibly unique and individual ways--
as the mode of our particular "Way" of doing,
whatever it is we do?

As for example:
Having the Liberty of Light, to Love...
that there will be Life.

...Which could be interpreted as
having the freedom to understand, as the precursor to the actions
which we Will into being.

Possibly, bringing up the question:
What kind of freedom is necessary, to understand?
Does one need some kind of liberty, to come to an understanding?
Of anything in particular?
What about the physical and mental environment we live in?
Can it be said to hinder us in any way....detrimental to fulfilling the Law?
And if your answer is yes, (though it might be no)...
what does "Thelema" tell us...
so far as "solutions" go?

93! 93! 93!


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Azidonis
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24/05/2010 9:34 pm  

93,

From Little Essays Towards Truth:

MASTERY.

The aim of him who would be Master is single; men call it Personal Ambition. That is, he wants his Universe to be as vast, and his control of it as perfect, as possible.

Few fail to understand this aim; but many fail in the formulation of their campaign to attain it. Some, for instance, fill their purse with fairy gold, which, when they try to use it, is found to be dead leaves. Others attempt to rule the universe of another, not seeing that they cannot even take true cognizance thereof.

The proper method of extending one's universe, besides the conventional apparatus of material Science, is tripartite: evocation, invocation, and vision. Control is a matter of theoretical and practical acquaintance with Magical Formulae, but notably also of Self-Discipline. The ground is to be consolidated, and all contradictions resolved in higher harmonies, by various Trances.

So much indeed is obvious to superficial consideration; strange, then, that so few Magicians take the further step of enquiry as to the availability of the Instrument. Shortsighted selfishness, good sooth, to take for granted that one's Self is sure to find its proper medium to hand for its next adventure.

Here the Magical Memory is of virtue marvellous to correct perspective; for, how often in the past has one's life been all but sheer failure from the mere lack of proper means of self-expression? And who among us can be seriously satisfied (to-day, knowing what we do) with even the most perfect human instrument?

It is then no more than simple good sense for the Magus to formulate his general political aim in some such terms as these:

To secure the greatest possible freedom of self-expression for the greatest possible number of Points-of-View.

Of which issue the practical aspect may be phrased as follows:

To improve the human race in every conceivable way, so as to have available for service the greatest possible variety of the best Instruments imaginable.

And this is the rational justification of the apparently imbecile and too often sentimental-hypocritical aphorism:

Love all Beings! Serve Mankind!

That is, upon the political plane; for also these two phrases contain (1) the Magical Formula which is the Key alike of Invocation and of Trance (2) the implicit injunction to make clear the Way of the Magician through the Heavens by right ordering of every Star. The word "serve" is indeed misleading and objectionable: it implies a false and despicable attitude. The relation between men should be the brotherly respect which obtains between noble strangers. The idea of service is either true, and humiliating; or false, and arrogant.

The most common and fatal pitfall which menaces the man who has begun to extend his Universe beyond the world of sense-perception is called Confusion of the Planes. To him who realises the All-One, and knows that to distinguish between any two things is the basic error, it must seem natural and even right to perform what seem perforce Acts of Love between incongruous ideas. He has the Key of Languages: why then should not he the Englishman avail himself of it to speak in Hebrew without learning it? The same problem offers itself daily in a myriad subtle shapes. "Command these stones to become bread." "Throw thyself down from the pinnacle of the Temple: as it is written ~`He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways'" -- These last four words throw light upon the fog of Choronzon -- Restriction be unto him in the Name of BABALON! For "his ways" are the ways of Nature, who hath appointed between the planes a well-ordered relation; to deform this device is not, and cannot be, "thy way." The Act of Love, so-seeming, is a false gesture; for such love is not "love under will." Be thou well aware, O thou who seekest to attain to Mastery, of doing aught "miraculous": the surest sign of the Master is this, that he is a man of like passions with his fellows. He does indeed transcend them all, and turn them all to perfections: but he does this without suppression (for `Everything that lives is holy') or distortion (for `Every Form is a true symbol of Substance') or confusion (for `Admixture is hatred as Union is love'). Initiation means the Journey Inwards: nothing is changed or can be changed; but all is trulier understood with every step. The Magus of the Gods, with His one Word that seems to overturn the chariot of Mankind in ruin, does not in fact destroy or even alter anything; He simply furnishes a new mode of applying existing Energy to established Forms.

The invention of electric machines has in no way interfered with Matter or Motion; it has only helped us to get rid of certain aspects of the Illusion of Time and Space, and so brought the most intelligent minds to the threshold of the Magical and Mystical Doctrine: they have been forced to imagine the possibility of the perception of the Universe as it is, freed of conditions. That is, they have been given a glimpse of the nature of the Attainment of Mastery. And it is surely but a little step to take for the leaders of natural Science, Mathematics their guiding Star, that they should understand the compelling necessity of the Great Work, and apply themselves to its achievement.

Here the great obstacles are these; firstly, the misunderstanding of Self; and secondly, the resistance of the rational mind against its own conclusions. Men must cast off these two restrictions; they must begin to realise that Self is hidden behind, and independent of, the mental and material instrument in which they apprehend their Point-of-View; and they must seek an instrument other than that which insists (with every single observation) on impressing on them what is merely its own most hateful flaw and error, the idea of duality.

The Aeon of Horus is here: and its first flower may well be this: that, freed of the obsession of the doom of the Ego in Death, and of the limitation of the Mind by Reason, the best men again set out with eager eyes upon the Path of the Wise, the mountain track of the goat, and then the untrodden Ridge, that leads to the ice-gleaming pinnacles of Mastery!

- Crowley, Aleister. Little Essays Towards Truth. New Falcon Publishing. 1996ev. Pages 46-50.

93 93/93

P.S. I'm not sure if posting a complete article like this is within the Forum Guidelines, and don't really have to time check. If it gets removed, it gets removed.


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Tiger
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24/05/2010 11:37 pm  

That was awesome ! Thanks Azidonis !


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 1:57 am  
"wellredwellbred" wrote:
Behind all various approaches to Thelema, what is the essential quality of Thelema?

The essential quality of Thelema aims toward freedom and understanding. If you need a motto: light, life, love and liberty. Intellectual and political trends tend to lag behind spiritual changes by some 30 – 50 years, but I regard the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) and historical emergence of the concept of human rights in general to be a validation of the New Aeon.


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steve_wilson
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25/05/2010 8:08 am  

I would add to that the precedent set by the Nuremberg trials in which the Nazis attempted to use an old aeon defence that their highest duty was to obey authority. The court instead ruled that they had carried out their genocidal crimes because it was their will to do so, and punished them accordingly.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 9:35 am  

seems to me that these so called universal human rights are just an excuse used by liberals to use their power against some other groups use of power. Which is to say the power that (in theory) supports these human rights is just as oppressive and power based as the powers that support other ideals. The Liberals with their equal rights nonsense act as if they are enforcing the rule of nature or the divine mandate that all men have rights, but really they are just as guilty of using deceit and violent threats to push their agendas.

What makes the violent pushing one agenda better than the other. There is no more a divine mandate for Equality and Democratic leftism than for the Nazi notion of a divine mandate for a pure race or Aryan rule of a unified Germanic centered world power.

When you claim than one is Thelemic an the other is old aeon, or what you really claim is that one manifest destiny is right and the other wrong, then you justify the use of violence to enforce one type of rule and not the other. That is in it self the old aeon mentality.

In the new aeon there is no right and no wrong, there is just different groups with different agendas and both are equally authorized to use violence as they WILL. "As brothers fight ye"


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 12:46 pm  

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." = On one's own authority only based

Without confusion of previously expressed sentiments, does not this state it all.
Follow this and deny it not. Freedom of individual will as opposed to the will of the more succeptable.
The person of Crowley aside, the message is clear to all. Let us make of it as what that which shall be, as always was and which shall always shall be.
A docile and foolish being am I and pay me no regard, but be helpfull to others and attempt to ease pain whenever it is within your power, as I have, to personal sorrow attained.
22. Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am infinite Space, and the InfiniteStars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing!
Let there be no difference madeamong you between any one thing &(7) any other thing;for thereby there cometh hurt.

The last time this shall be reiterated.
Forgive and forget for they know not what they say and do.
Kindest regards,


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
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25/05/2010 4:37 pm  

As a relative newbie to the whole so called philosophy of Thelema I would say the essential quality is Will, in detail finding your true will and Doing What Thou Wilt, as long as it involves Love, under Will.
That sounds like the most encompassing and important description to me.
If you wanted details ie not just teh essentials qualitY i would say other qualitIES would be the K and C of the Holy Guardian Angel, and also becoming enlightened in terms of doing your true Will and gaining self control and discipline which Crowley constantly stressed.


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christibrany
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25/05/2010 4:40 pm  

in a nutshell becoming a fully functioning Star, as a Human. and in the process becoming Aware to your infinite potential and gaining new skills and evolving to be more godlike. On a metaphysical level one might say that finding and doing their True Will is secondary to opening and awakening all of the chakras, to create a strong and viable energy body. what do you all think?


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Los
 Los
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25/05/2010 6:50 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Which is to say the power that (in theory) supports these human rights is just as oppressive and power based as the powers that support other ideals.

Thelema asserts that every person is unique (AL I:3), such that comparisons (such as the obviously false claim that “everyone is equal”) cannot be made. However, a Thelemite is perfectly free to be in favor of a society that provides equal opportunities, equal rights, and equal access to institutions for its citizens (perhaps as a remedy to the fact that society does not start with a level playing field).

In fact, since Thelema asserts that the proper course of action for every person is that individual’s nature, a person attending to his or her own will is highly unlikely to take a great interest in the actions of others, except insofar as they impact that will. Things like racism, oppression, segregation, actively opposing the rights of others, etc. – these are generally the products of people taking far too much of an interest in the doings of others and far too much of an interest in the silly stories about “race” that their minds have invented.

And of course power supports the idea of human rights and other political stances. I personally like the idea of human rights, though I don’t go around ascribing “divine” notions to it. It’s an idea that humans have come up with, and a rather pleasant idea at that. If you don’t agree with the idea, then you’re free to disagree -- just make sure you don’t go around violating any of those human rights that we’ve thought up, or the rest of us are going to kick your ass.

Simple, isn’t it?


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 7:11 pm  
"christibrany" wrote:
On a metaphysical level one might say that finding and doing their True Will is secondary to opening and awakening all of the chakras, to create a strong and viable energy body. what do you all think?

I would say, christibrany, since you asked, that nothing is secondary to finding and doing true Will, and that for those whose true Will involves consciously seeking to "open and awaken all of the chakras," that is fine, but for others such ideas may not be at all appropriate to bother themselves with.

I think we sometimes bang "knowing and doing true Will" against "discovering the true nature and powers of our own being" as two competing goals that might define Thelema. In fact, the first choice should be the conscious goal of everyone, IMO, while the second applies consciously only to those for whom it is truly suited.

(Of course, some would say that knowing and doing true Will, no matter what that true Will might be, will automatically "open and awaken chakras," whether consciously or not, which is a nice thought for those who think about such things.)


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 7:38 pm  

Let me clarify,

In nature under the "Rule of God" Might is right, you may do anything you can get away with, Rape, murder, Pillage, genocide, if it is your WILL then who will stand in your Way, so long as you are strong enough and clever enough to strike down any opposition.

Now that is the law of nature, what Hobbs called the state of everyone against everyone else.

Just like in nature plants grow randomly all over and animals randomly happen to find the ones they can eat by chance. The plants fight over soil animals fight over plants etc. To the discerning eye however, there are different types of plants (each actual plant is unique). To the farmer with knowledge, he can gather up the types of plants he wants and impose order on them, placing them all in one field, protecting them from pests, gathering the water and fertilizer they need.

The Osiris formula of farming, is to force all the plants to a single ideal, to treat them all the same. That is to bend the uniqueness of each plant to a common treatment.

The Horus Formula is to treat each unique plant as it is and to promote the best environment under which to create interactions between all the different types of plants. Bending the treatment to fit the plants, rather than bend the plants to the treatment.

This is however, not the law of nature, it's not a Cosmic law. This is a man made application of the law. It is an attempt to keep the law of nature, while creating an environment that minimizes conflicts and promotes co-operation.
The ideal is there is enough room for all stars, within a social construct, if that society is constructed properly based on the scientific knowledge of the natural course of each star that makes it up.


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Michael Staley
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25/05/2010 7:46 pm  
"name538" wrote:
The ideal is there is enough room for all stars, within a social construct, if that society is constructed properly based on the scientific knowledge of the natural course of each star that makes it up.

How might the "scientific knowledge of the natural course of each star" be acquired, and in what manner is it to be used once ascertained?


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 7:56 pm  

Well these who have the ability to rationally plot their own course, by an accurate record and objective interpretation of that data. Crowley is clear on what type of information to keep in the magickal diary. To get an idea of what thinks you are skilled at, what you limits are, what the effects of different foods, practices and rituals have on your health, emotions, social interactions, etc. The do Liber Thisharb, but not take the "memories" of past lives as actual past lives, instead take them as evidence of the type of personality factors and attributes that make up part of your being.

Once you gather all that information, figure out what it means in the bigger picture, integrate it all into a single idea.

Then once you have done this and constrain yourself to that. You can express to the Council of Adepts what your WILL is, and they can help guide you, until you perfect self guidance. While the majority that can't do this, must be tested by the Adepts and sorted out based on the best methods devised for that. By testing, ordeals, observation, etc.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
25/05/2010 8:06 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Then once you have done this and constrain yourself to that. You can express to the Council of Adepts what your WILL is, and they can help guide you, until you perfect self guidance. While the majority that can't do this, must be tested by the Adepts and sorted out based on the best methods devised for that. By testing, ordeals, observation, etc.

So the Council of Adepts will decide what the True Will is of the individual and then constrain them to it?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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25/05/2010 8:08 pm  

Let me ask you this, when you join the military, how do they know if you are best used as a foot soldier, sniper, computer tech, translator, pilot, etc?

The same sort of means can be used to discern how to best put each member of society into their proper role and function.

This can be done either by forcing the individual into a role without concern if they are suited to it or not (Osiris)

Or you can not provide a place for everyone and just expect each person to figure it out for themselves, and end up with people drifting aimless and ending up in "jobs they hate in order to buy shit they don't need" (Modern capitalist liberalism)

Or you can have a science to ensure that every individual has a place in society and each individual has a specially designed social role an niche where he can best express his own True nature, without frustration of their own interests, so than we can all work in jobs and social roles we love, and not feel driven by industrial-media to buy things we don't need.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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25/05/2010 8:33 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Well these who have the ability to rationally plot their own course, by an accurate record and objective interpretation of that data. Crowley is clear on what type of information to keep in the magickal diary. To get an idea of what thinks you are skilled at, what you limits are, what the effects of different foods, practices and rituals have on your health, emotions, social interactions, etc. The do Liber Thisharb, but not take the "memories" of past lives as actual past lives, instead take them as evidence of the type of personality factors and attributes that make up part of your being.

Once you gather all that information, figure out what it means in the bigger picture, integrate it all into a single idea.

All of that can be helpful, but really the only thing required to discover the will is to observe it functioning in real time, in various situations, over a long course of time (and not, of course, to mistake it for ideals, self-image, or fantasy).

It's not a "rational" process at all. One can draw tentative conclusions about it based on these observations, but those conclusions can only ever be tentative and constantly subject to revision as one observes more.

You can express to the Council of Adepts what your WILL is, and they can help guide you, until you perfect self guidance.

Any relation to the Justice League? All of these ideas smack of unrealistic utopian ideals.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 8:49 pm  

For me, the most essential quality is a strong focus on the self. Thelemic philosophy, is an armory of tools for any serious student of the occult to utilize. In my experience, a lot of people 'talk' about the tools, but rarely use them.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 8:50 pm  

If you want to build something, with say leggo blocks.

You can do it by first formulating an ideal, the end result, and then forcing each block to fit into that ideal, which may work, if you have the types of blocks you need, if not you may have to mis-use or modify the blocks you have to fit your ideal product.

The better way, is to take an inventory of each block, so that you know what is the nature and purpose of each kind of block. You can then modify your ideal result, to fit the blocks that you have, so that each one finds it's place in the whole.

With humans you have to first give them total liberty and encourage them to use that liberty to express and experience as much as possible, art, science, sport, history, religion, people will eventually narrow down their interests to just those that fit their own interests. As they narrow the focus, they will take shape as the particular blocks, thus you can take inventory of these building materials and rather than force people to dedicate their lives to some purpose they don't own, you first get them to own a purpose and then we find a social role that supports that purpose.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 9:53 pm  
"Los" wrote:
"name538" wrote:
Which is to say the power that (in theory) supports these human rights is just as oppressive and power based as the powers that support other ideals.

Thelema asserts that every person is unique (AL I:3), such that comparisons (such as the obviously false claim that “everyone is equal”) cannot be made. However, a Thelemite is perfectly free to be in favor of a society that provides equal opportunities, equal rights, and equal access to institutions for its citizens (perhaps as a remedy to the fact that society does not start with a level playing field).

In fact, since Thelema asserts that the proper course of action for every person is that individual’s nature, a person attending to his or her own will is highly unlikely to take a great interest in the actions of others, except insofar as they impact that will. Things like racism, oppression, segregation, actively opposing the rights of others, etc. – these are generally the products of people taking far too much of an interest in the doings of others and far too much of an interest in the silly stories about “race” that their minds have invented.

And of course power supports the idea of human rights and other political stances. I personally like the idea of human rights, though I don’t go around ascribing “divine” notions to it. It’s an idea that humans have come up with, and a rather pleasant idea at that. If you don’t agree with the idea, then you’re free to disagree -- just make sure you don’t go around violating any of those human rights that we’ve thought up, or the rest of us are going to kick your ass.

Simple, isn’t it?

Actually, as in political science 101, the 'greater good' is the goal of any political application, and, in the case of Thelema, the 'greater good' insists on a system that supports and encourages as much as possible the knowing and doing of true Will by each individual citizen, while refraining as much as possible from unnecessary interference with same.

I agree with you that unless it is one's true Will to concern oneself with the 'greater good' of one's fellows, one should totally avoid participation in such undertakings, as one will be unsuited by nature to the task.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 10:04 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"name538" wrote:
Then once you have done this and constrain yourself to that. You can express to the Council of Adepts what your WILL is, and they can help guide you, until you perfect self guidance. While the majority that can't do this, must be tested by the Adepts and sorted out based on the best methods devised for that. By testing, ordeals, observation, etc.

So the Council of Adepts will decide what the True Will is of the individual and then constrain them to it?

Yes, Michael, and this combined with name538's bit earlier about genetically engineering a caste system makes me think of that 'f-word' again, but I will refrain.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
25/05/2010 10:16 pm  
"name538" wrote:
With humans you have to first give them total liberty and encourage them to use that liberty to express and experience as much as possible, art, science, sport, history, religion, people will eventually narrow down their interests to just those that fit their own interests. As they narrow the focus, they will take shape as the particular blocks, thus you can take inventory of these building materials and rather than force people to dedicate their lives to some purpose they don't own, you first get them to own a purpose and then we find a social role that supports that purpose.

This is an unnecessary reinvention of society from scratch on the assumption that there is no part of pre-existing society worth salvaging. Not a valid assumption, fortunately, and it really puts us into squarely into the realm fantasy rather anywhere near reality, unless it is done on very small scale.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
25/05/2010 10:32 pm  
"name538" wrote:
If you want to build something, with say leggo blocks.

Maybe you can leggo for the time being the conceptual webs you weave of how a large-scale society might be run on Thelemic lines. In the first instance it seems to me that Thelema is best applied on an individual level. The next step might be applying it in small communities of Thelemites, and seeing how it works out then, before seeking to apply it on a larger scale; bottom up not top down, as the bishop said to the actress.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 11:36 pm  

There is nothing in Thelema that one's Will can not be as violent curmudgeon out for one's own self interest and not caring about other people at all. You can take it as doing what you WILL and stomping on everyone else, and that is the low of nature.

However, it is also the law of nature that some people attain higher benefits from co-operating with others. While at the same time it is the law of nature that you can lie and manipulate people, such that you live in a high castle and all the wealth of the community flows to you.

Any of these would be working the Law of thelema, Which is just Do what thou Wilt.

It is only when you have a group that volunteers to form a community on purpose established to using the law of Thelema to achieve certain other ends (like allowing the maximum liberty of all members to do their WILL, without frustration) that a man made system of legislation is necessary. The O.T.O. for example is such an organization that seeks to ensure that each WILL has it's way.

Where as in the state of nature, Each has his own way, but it is met with constant conflict and fighting.

The basic notion of Thelema is expressed as the Theorems of MAGICK, which is much like those of Objectivism, if you want to achieve anything, you have no know the Objective facts about the situation and you have to use science to discern the right use of each force and element in the system, then put each force to the right use in the right way, to the right object, that will achieve your goal. (Nature to be commanded, must be obeyed)

This same principle applies to all acts whatsoever, be it blowing your nose or organizing a social system where each individual is taken as an Object or element of the system. That you must put the right object in the right place, so that it can use its force of WILL, in the right way, on the right object, such as to achieve the desired goal.


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 Anonymous
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25/05/2010 11:47 pm  

Also, I was not suggesting that we genetically engineer a Caste system.
I was suggesting that we have already built into us, a repressed genetic caste system, but the modern city life has deprived us of the experiences than would activate those instincts, so those genes remain mostly dormant, other than to some extent the dominance-submissive expressions found in the corporate hierarchy.

For example the rites of passage found in tribal systems, activate the child's genes and jump start the transition to manhood. Which in the word today, we pretty much remain children, like domesticated dogs, which by the soft life have locked up the genes necessary to transition from puppy to adult, thus playful behavior is never displaced with hunting behavior.

The thought being that perhaps we approach dramatic rituals (Mass, pentagram, initiations) as attempts to unlock or activate repressed genetic potentials.

In this case then the essence of Thelema would be in the unlocking of all the unique potential found in the individual.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 12:14 am  
"name538" wrote:
For example the rites of passage found in tribal systems, activate the child's genes and jump start the transition to manhood. Which in the word today, we pretty much remain children, like domesticated dogs, which by the soft life have locked up the genes necessary to transition from puppy to adult, thus playful behavior is never displaced with hunting behavior.

The thought being that perhaps we approach dramatic rituals (Mass, pentagram, initiations) as attempts to unlock or activate repressed genetic potentials.

In this case then the essence of Thelema would be in the unlocking of all the unique potential found in the individual.

Yes, I think that some of us have done or are doing that, or other things toward a similar end, some individually and some in groups. Some call it 'initiation' and some call it other things, but it is all really a means of 'recovery,' I agree with that.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 12:43 am  

Yes, but the only purpose to unlocking such ability is it's benefit to the higher order ie the society.
The only reason to do anything, to live rather than just fade off and die, is in service to the higher order of society.

A single gear, no matter how perfect is worthless without it's complements in which it can lose itself in the clock.
No Cell in the body no matter how immaculate it's construction, has any purpose outside of it's function in the body.
Likewise no thing is complete without it's interaction with the whole universe, the cell is not complete it much absorb nutrients and it returns waste.

There is no way in which to separate fully the WILL of any one thing from any other thing, as all is continuous, and the value, purpose, and unique identity of any part is merely a result of it's function in the greater whole.

Thus, we can not speak of the True Will outside of the higher order of some kind.

Like the Oar and the Rowlock, the rowlock is like a social law a Caste, that seemingly restricts the motion of the Oar, as the oar might move in any such direction in wants, but it's WILL is truly linked to it's function in moving the boat. Thus the Caste system and laws actually make it possible to do your WILL more effectively.

Which is to say, just like a free oar, the man in nature can do any thing whatsoever he wants bound only by physics and his own power. However, by accepting the restriction of society only then can one achieve that ONE purpose for which one is designated by the structure of society.

Of course society can also be so constituted to repress and make impossible the achievements of the WILL, pushing people into social roles suited to robots, rather than humans. With the constant implication that the life worth living is only that life of luxury and slack that the richest people live. It fact the most useless people are often presented as the ideal and all social roles than actually contribute as part of a greater system are degraded as something we should try to escape or avoid. Resentment of HAVING to work in roles than matter and desire to escape into having to purpose, is absurd and damaging to the human spirit.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
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Posts: 2380
26/05/2010 2:04 am  

As you said

"name538" wrote:
There is nothing in Thelema that one's Will can not be as violent curmudgeon out for one's own self interest and not caring about other people at all. You can take it as doing what you WILL and stomping on everyone else, and that is the low (sic) of nature.

I would have to heartily disagree. In my opinion there is a huge difference between "Do What Thou Wilt" and "Do what you want" but you seem to be equating the two.
The Law of Thelema is not about 'not caring about other people at all' or 'doing what you WILL and stomping on everyone'
it is about doing what your True Will is meaning what you're best suited for as a productive and creative individual, and Crowley was the first person to say that it was not a license to wantonness but a responsibility to one's soul purpose.
so I think you are a bit off in your interpretation there. It is one of hte common pet peeves I have with most people saying "AC preached doing what you want and screwing everyone over at the cost of selfishness" . That just shows a lack of understanding in my book.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 2:34 am  

No, Crowley did not teach doing what you want, because Crowley was devising a social system.
However there is no law of nature that will stop you doing anything you can get away with.
It may very well be your WILL to be a mass killer, and in order to achieve that purpose without getting caught you would have to be very clever, skilled, self disciplined. The the show Dexter for example. As a killer, Dexter can't just do whatever he wants, he has to be very careful to do just the right things at the right times, or giving himself away or in some ways getting found out, then he can not finish his Great Work, which is to Find and murder all serial killers.

Now this shows that it may very well be some one's WILL to do very anti-social things, without concern for the wellbeing of other people. However, you can't play the Thelema card and say, you can't arrest me I was doing my true WILL to murder.

Doing your WILL is not a moral or legal right that anyone other than yourself has to respect. In an community based on Thelema, those with a WILL to murder, would still be criminals. They would not be accepted with open arms, but hunted down and removed from the society. Thelema does not mean you have to accept EVERY WILL, it just means you make room for all WILLs that do not directly threaten the society. In Theory it is possible that everyone has a place and that the WILL to crime is a warped WILL that is a result of some one not being accepted as they are. So ideally, you can prevent criminal WILLs like murderers from coming to be in the first place, by not having been driven to a perverse WILL by a restrictive childhood.

The only rights and crimes that exist are in relation to society. In nature nothing is right or wrong at all. So Basically, if you CAN get away with it, then you MAY do it. The only LAW is to do what you WILL.

However the necessity of getting along well in a social community, means that you have limits to what you can get away with. If you can over power the whole police force of the world, because you are Achellies and nothing can hurt you, and you have no interest in having friends, then you can rape and pillage all you want. Who will stop you? If no one can stop you, why should you stop?

The only reason, is than you might not fit into a higher system, and what if you gain the the whole world by your WILL and your are still nothing more than yourself.

Black brothers can use the formula as well as the white.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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26/05/2010 2:43 am  
"christibrany" wrote:
The Law of Thelema is not about 'not caring about other people at all' or 'doing what you WILL and stomping on everyone'

"For these fools of men and their woes care not thou at all! They feel little; what is, is balanced by weak joys; but ye are my chosen ones." AL I:31

"We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world." AL II:21

"Beware therefore! Love all, lest perchance is a King concealed! Say you so? Fool! If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him.

"Therefore strike hard & low, and to hell with them, master!" AL II:59-60

As much as I disagree with name538 on a lot of what he says (his ideas seem pretty impractical), the Book of the Law is explicit on this particular point. Thelemites are exhorted to follow their True Will, and they are granted license both to not care about others and to actively crush anyone and everything in the way of that will.

If you don't like that, you're more than entitled to reject Liber AL.

(Technically, this license isn't "granted" by the Book of the Law. It's just the way that the world works)


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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26/05/2010 2:52 am  
"name538" wrote:
The only rights and crimes that exist are in relation to society. In nature nothing is right or wrong at all. So Basically, if you CAN get away with it, then you MAY do it. The only LAW is to do what you WILL.

Yes.

However the necessity of getting along well in a social community, means that you have limits to what you can get away with. If you can over power the whole police force of the world, because you are Achellies and nothing can hurt you, and you have no interest in having friends, then you can rape and pillage all you want. Who will stop you? If no one can stop you, why should you stop?

Well, this assumes that the average person really, really wants to rape and pillage lots and lots and that the only thing stopping him are those pesky laws. I would submit that the average person has no such desires and that these kinds of desires are mostly found in weirdo, bizarre sociopathic nutcases that society has very good reasons for catching and locking up.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 3:07 am  

Right, that is the way the world works.
That is why we build social systems that try to create interactions between people, so that people can achieve their WILL without having to stomp down others, at least not others in the community or brotherhood.

in the past the elites have used lies and manipulation to justify violent oppression to keep people in line. "we govern by a mixture of lying and bullying." That is we have to force people into roles they are not suited to, so that the elite class can benefit from surpluses created by types of co-operation that do not exist in the state of nature.

Of course the masses benefit from not being at constant war as well, but the system finds ways to fetter us with debt, taxes, too little pay, too long hours, jobs that waste our potential, in the end industry leads to constant war and exploitation on the nation to nation level, that is far more destructive than the person to person hand to hand fighting in Nature.

The alternative society is one that treats people as people, not as machines. Where using science we help maximize the potential of each individual by balancing the properties of each individual nature with it's complements and fulfilling role in the greater scheme of society.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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26/05/2010 4:29 am  

93,

"name538" wrote:
Let me ask you this, when you join the military, how do they know if you are best used as a foot soldier, sniper, computer tech, translator, pilot, etc?
.

The ASVAB Explained

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
Member
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Posts: 2964
26/05/2010 4:35 am  
"name538" wrote:
If you want to build something, with say leggo blocks.

You can do it by first formulating an ideal, the end result, and then forcing each block to fit into that ideal, which may work, if you have the types of blocks you need, if not you may have to mis-use or modify the blocks you have to fit your ideal product.

The better way, is to take an inventory of each block, so that you know what is the nature and purpose of each kind of block. You can then modify your ideal result, to fit the blocks that you have, so that each one finds it's place in the whole.

With humans you have to first give them total liberty and encourage them to use that liberty to express and experience as much as possible, art, science, sport, history, religion, people will eventually narrow down their interests to just those that fit their own interests. As they narrow the focus, they will take shape as the particular blocks, thus you can take inventory of these building materials and rather than force people to dedicate their lives to some purpose they don't own, you first get them to own a purpose and then we find a social role that supports that purpose.

93,

From Frater Achad's QBL Chapter V.

"1. ATZILUTH, the Highest, is the ARCHETYPAL WORLD. It is in this World that the Primal Ideas arose in the Mind of THE FATHER, Who through WISDOM was able to comprehend the Silent Voice of the One Existence. These were the "Seed Ideas" as yet unmanifest, but containing Potentially the WILL of the Father to manifest in a suitable Substance. This World is attributed to the First letter of the Ineffable Name, Yod, the Letter of the FATHER.

2. BRIAH is the CREATIVE WORLD which, being impregnated with the Will or Life, of the Father is a LIVING SUBSTANCE, Understanding what is necessary to the gradual formation of the ideas and the preparation and bearing of them until perfectly fashioned. It is therefore referred to the Second Letter of the Name, Heh The Great Mother.

3. YETZIRAH is the FORMATIVE WORLD, the product of the previous two, where the perfected ideas having taken form, await a suitable material body in which to clothe them. It is the world of Symbols, something like the Plan of the Great Architect ready for execution. It is attributed to the letter Vau which is that of the SON.

4. ASSIAH is the MATERIAL WORLD wherein all these former worlds of fine matter are Materialized and Manifested in tangible form. It is the Universe as we know it through the five senses. This is attributed to the Final Heh which is called the DAUGHTER and is usually written with a dot in the centre to distinguish it from The Mother."

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 4:36 am  

well for a thelemic version of these tests lets include, personality tests, MMPI, some sort of aptitude tests like Rorschach, and some non-written ordeals and tests of actual responses to controlled situations as in initiation rituals. Test for honesty, creativity, leadership ability, response to fear and stress, Ability to control temper, etc.

Run a full battery of controlled tests, so that you can know all about the individual and thus adequately put that person to proper use, in the way that best fulfills the individual potentials and maximizes the higher good.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
26/05/2010 4:41 am  

ASSIAH is the only real world.

The other "worlds" are not real they are ways in which the brain represents the process by which unrefined sensory input is algorithmically processed and categorized into the phenomenal appearance of the Physical world.

In truth ASSIAH is not even the REAL material world it is the minds projected map of the REAL world, a mirror of the material world that we are aware of in our brain, the minds eye.

We never see the REAL world, only the mirror of it in the mind. The True material world is a mirror image of ASSIAH but it exists at a level deeper than ATZILUTH.

Malkuth is in Kether and Kether is in Malkuth.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 3951
26/05/2010 11:19 am  
"Los" wrote:
If you don't like that, you're more than entitled to reject Liber AL

Doutless he is so entitled, but acceptance or rejection of The Book of the Law is not dependent on these passages alone. The Book is a hotch-potch of conflicting threads, and one doesn't need to embrace them all in order to accept the Book.

For instance, I am not one of those who counts the day wasted when I have not stamped down the wretched and the weak, or struck hard and low at them. That's partly because I do not embrace the literal interpretation of those verses, but largely because I do not feel the need to do something simply because a surface reading of the Book suggests that I should behave in that manner.

In other words, I take from The Book of the Law that which strikes me as fruitful, as do you I suspect, as does name538, as does christibrany. Obviously, my definition of "fruitful" in this context changes with understanding and initiation.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Patriarch156
(@patriarch156)
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Posts: 486
26/05/2010 11:25 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"Los" wrote:
If you don't like that, you're more than entitled to reject Liber AL

Doutless he is so entitled, but acceptance or rejection of The Book of the Law is not dependent on these passages alone. The Book is a hotch-potch of conflicting threads, and one doesn't need to embrace them all in order to accept the Book.

For instance, I am not one of those who counts the day wasted when I have not stamped down the wretched and the weak, or struck hard and low at them. That's partly because I do not embrace the literal interpretation of those verses, but largely because I do not feel the need to do something simply because a surface reading of the Book suggests that I should behave in that manner.

In other words, I take from The Book of the Law that which strikes me as fruitful, as do you I suspect, as does name538, as does christibrany. Obviously, my definition of "fruitful" in this context changes with understanding and initiation.

Best wishes,

Michael.

For once Michael we are in hundred percent agreement. Well written!


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