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What is the essential quality of Thelema?  

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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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26/05/2010 1:57 pm  

For myself, the essential quality of Thelema could perhaps best be described, if not necessarily defined, as a dynamic, or immanentising (rather than transcendent) version of the Tao.


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christibrany
(@christibrany)
Yuggothian
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26/05/2010 4:40 pm  

yes in my opinion dynamism is key. its not static as the text in the book, its changing based on new knowledge, different feelings, experience etc.
like the dao but also just like circumstance.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 5:27 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Yes, but the only purpose to unlocking such ability is it's benefit to the higher order ie the society.
The only reason to do anything, to live rather than just fade off and die, is in service to the higher order of society.

A single gear, no matter how perfect is worthless without it's complements in which it can lose itself in the clock.
No Cell in the body no matter how immaculate it's construction, has any purpose outside of it's function in the body.
Likewise no thing is complete without it's interaction with the whole universe, the cell is not complete it much absorb nutrients and it returns waste.

There is no way in which to separate fully the WILL of any one thing from any other thing, as all is continuous, and the value, purpose, and unique identity of any part is merely a result of it's function in the greater whole.

Thus, we can not speak of the True Will outside of the higher order of some kind.

There is no doubt that a necessary reciprocal relationship exists between the individual and the society, the collective of individuals, but your EMPHASIS, name538, on the role of society rather than on the role of the individual is not shared by the Law of Thelema in Liber AL, nor was it Crowley's intent on a large scale, imo, beyond a few naive notions which were no more than inappropriate and unnecessary projections of spiritual hierarchies onto the world stage.

The emphasis, and it IS a question of EMPHASIS, in Thelema, is on the proper function of the individual, not on that of society. To insure the NATURAL VOLUNTARY proper function of each individual is to automatically insure the proper function of society as a whole.

It is "Do what THOU wilt" that "shall be the whole of the Law," not 'do as WE wilt.' Again, it a question of EMPHASIS. The proper function of each individual insures that society will function properly, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

As with your own example, name538, of the true Will of the miller to mill and that of the baker to bake, these two need one another NATURALLY, just as these true Wills occur in each of them NATURALLY. The miller needs a demand for his supply of milled grain, and the baker demands this supply. Society has no role in this private relationship except to benefit by it, there is no need for society to put this relationship in order. Further along this NATURAL chain of supply and demand, the miller needs a supply of raw grain to mill, and the baker needs a demand for baked goods, thus the roles of the grain farmers and the buyers of baked goods are demanded and supplied NATURALLY and VOLUNTARILY. There is to need for at all for society to structure these private relationships, so long as the farmer, the miller, the baker and the buyer of baked goods are each doing their true Will and fulfilling these functions. Each fulfills their role in society NATURALLY and VOLUNTARILY, without need for an overt effort on behalf of society to set them in proper order.

"name538" wrote:
However there is no law of nature that will stop you doing anything you can get away with.
It may very well be your WILL to be a mass killer, and in order to achieve that purpose without getting caught you would have to be very clever, skilled, self disciplined. The the show Dexter for example. As a killer, Dexter can't just do whatever he wants, he has to be very careful to do just the right things at the right times, or giving himself away or in some ways getting found out, then he can not finish his Great Work, which is to Find and murder all serial killers.

This is an smelly old red herring mostly intended to frighten people away from the Law of Thelema and from the necessarily VOLUNTARY nature of how it must be adhered to. I've been seeing it pop up for a variety of self-serving purposes for four decades now and it never ceases to get a rise out of folks, as it did even from Michael Staley and Patriarch156 in this instance.

In point of fact, most truly criminal aberrant behavior committed by individuals is the result of conflicts within those individuals, conflicts between their true natures, true Wills, and artificial opposing forces lodged within them. The individual is unable to function in accord with his nature because that function is blocked. Crowley recognized this and correctly identified the solution to most truly criminal aberrant behavior as each individual knowing and doing true Will VOLUNTARILY. This will not create or allow rampant criminal aberration, it will prevent it by eliminating it's cause in most cases.

The solution to conflict in society is each individual knowing and doing true Will VOLUNTARILY.

The solution to conflict within each individual is each individual knowing and doing true Will VOLUNTARILY.

The proper function of society, of government, of the collective of individuals is to insure that each individual knows and does true Will VOLUNTARILY; to encourage, support and refrain from interfering with this NATURAL process. Artificial interference is the enemy of natural function.

This is a matter mostly of education and only rarely of enforcement, a process ranging from proper parenting to proper politics. Those unsuited by nature for either process should refrain from either parenting or from politics and leave these vital functions to those with a natural aptitude for them.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 6:45 pm  

No matter how you slice it, proper parenting is basically brainwashing, it is behavior conditioning to obey social norms and laws, Not do what thou wilt, in the sense of a first cause arising from within the child.

Also, one has NO WILL other than what one's role is in society. WILL can't come from within as you have it, because ALL that one is, is from outside of oneself. The whole subjective inner world is only an illusions, the only reality is the mechanical, deterministic, physical world. Thus the inner drives, like emotions, the sense of being an active agent, are only reactions to external pressures that line up the proper behavior to the proper external stimulation. The Self is not the first cause of any behavior, nor is the Will something that merely flows forth from the inner being. (Neither Thought not WILL occurs in a vacuum).

Without a larger system in which to fully lose one's self awareness, one is NOTHING and should just go die, because there is no reason, organic, physical, or spiritual to transmute meat and drink or waste any breath of air, if not in service to a greater whole.

Will is an integrating factor into that which is greater than self, If there is no society or one is an outcast and unfit then it is best that one be stomped down as a useless abomination of the earth.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 7:03 pm  
"name538" wrote:
No matter how you slice it, proper parenting is basically brainwashing, it is behavior conditioning to obey social norms and laws, Not do what thou wilt, in the sense of a first cause arising from within the child.

Okay, but let's "brainwash" the child with "do what thou wilt, in the sense of a first cause arising from within the child." Do you have children of your own?

"name538" wrote:
Also, one has NO WILL other than what one's role is in society. WILL can't come from within as you have it, because ALL that one is, is from outside of oneself.

We have a fundamental disagreement here.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 7:18 pm  

Disagree all you want, but the ONLY facts are science, and the brain is a physical process, it does not produce anything as a first cause, just like a computer, data in data out, Garbage in garbage out. As the computer science people used to say.

DNA just happened to form out of chemicals, and DNA happens to reproduce itself, the fact is it organizes protein structures that keep the DNA chains safe, so they can replicate better. Your entire mind, body and "soul" is nothing more than a protein shell that protects DNA and brings it into interaction with it's compliments that allow lineages to continue.

You are a vessel for the chemical germs that live inside of you. That is you TRUEST WILL.

However, just as the DNA constructs bodies, it also constructs behaviors, and larger social structures, which produce for example ant colonies and spider webs, in humans these include the Catholic church and pyramids.

But these mystic and cosmic feelings, are just that, just feelings, they are genes expressing information that aids in replication of DNA.

A social network with a monument attracts others, creating a local gene pool. (Thus all humanities greatest endeavors are nothing but DNA replication, Sex is the driving force for all, TRUE WILL = Libido.)


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 7:39 pm  

Did you forget to tell me how many children you have, name538?


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 7:51 pm  

I don't have any children.
For one thing it seems futile in this economic situation and the impending doom, that is encroaching from every angle.
What is the point of continuing the species, with the current over population, lack of food, the dwindling oil supply, the pollution of the ocean, erosion of top soil, industrial reduction of life quality, no hope to escape perpetual debt, while 1% of the world uses excess money to rape the earth and dehumanize the world. Etc.

For another in this situation I can barely keep myself out of the red.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 8:09 pm  

These are all problems that the right application of The Law of Thelema, can solve. When these issues are fixed then the world is prepared as a safe location for the human species, and thus restore the motive to continue that species, where the factors promote the highest potential development of the children. Rather than a world that will poison the children and repress their potential.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 8:32 pm  
"name538" wrote:
I don't have any children.

Okay, that explains part of it.

Are you familiar with the scientific basis of DNA fingerprinting, then? You are aware that the idea that each individual human is unique is not some unscientific notion, right?


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 8:45 pm  

Technically the DNA used to fingerprint does not distinguish between twins.
Also it is not specifically unique There are 6 billion people on earth right now and the DNA they use has has a 1 in 5 million probability of finding a match by chance. That means a lot of people world wide have even closer DNA.

"Although 99.9% of human DNA sequences are the same in every person, enough of the DNA is different to distinguish one individual from another" (Wikipedia)

Not that the DNA is the only factor, as I keep trying to explain, Who and what you are is not some static thing, it is the interactions between the parts. In fact if we look to Buddhism, there are no parts at all. There is only one continuous process, the parts are just smaller subprocesses than can be divided indefinitely. In Quantum mechanics as we go to smaller and smaller unites, we lose the definity of the unit, the particles become waves, non-localized in space time and continuous with the whole of space-time, in fact it is the very fabric from which space-time is weaved. (Hadit turns out to be Nuit).


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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26/05/2010 9:25 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"name538" wrote:
I don't have any children.

Okay, that explains part of it.

93,

Indeed.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 9:43 pm  

"In denying it we deny our nature. In betraying it we betray no one but ourselves. The master will never be happy until he is a master. The slave will never be happy until she is a slave. It is what we are."

"Is it not safer to cower in the caves of lies than to stand upon the cliffs of truth, surveying the world? Yet when one stands in the sunlight, and feels the winds of reality, how dank and shameful seem the dark shelters of falsehood, and how foolish it seems then to have once feared daylight and fresh air."

"We grow fond of our myths. Yet our myths are like walls of straw. Ultimately they must perish in the flames of truth."

"Invisible chains are those which weigh the most heavily."

"Be strong and do as you will. The swords of others will set you your limits."

These I think expresses the essence of Thelema, all taken from the works of John Norman.

But none so much as this one.

"Do not ask the stones or the trees how to live, they can not tell you; they do not have tongues; do not ask the wise man how to live for, if he knows , he will know he cannot tell you; if you would learn how to live , do not ask the question; its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so."


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 9:44 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Technically the DNA used to fingerprint does not distinguish between twins.

The genes of twins are more similar but not identical.

"name538" wrote:
Not that the DNA is the only factor, as I keep trying to explain, Who and what you are is not some static thing, it is the interactions between the parts. In fact if we look to Buddhism, there are no parts at all.

What you keep doing is vacillating to and then back away from the support of science as it suits you, as when I had to give you a link to particle physics. Now you shift from the "garbage in garbage out" analogy of computer science to Buddhism.


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 Anonymous
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26/05/2010 9:53 pm  

why should I not, to you assume that the in put garbage, the computer and the out put garbage are separate discrete things and not one continuous process, a serpent that crosses time in which all things are one.

But as we well know it is not ONE but None. There are no parts, no things exist, it is only an illusion.

There is no THY WILL and MY WILL, there is only THE WILL.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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26/05/2010 11:33 pm  

93,

The problem with analogies is that sometimes they only fit a certain paradigm. Analogy may be used to demonstrate an understanding of a particular subject, but that same analogy may not befit other subjects.

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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26/05/2010 11:51 pm  

93,

"name538" wrote:
If you want to build something, with say leggo blocks.

Let's say Leggo blocks then.

You can do it by first formulating an ideal, the end result,

Quote Achad:

"1. ATZILUTH, the Highest, is the ARCHETYPAL WORLD. It is in this World that the Primal Ideas arose in the Mind of THE FATHER, Who through WISDOM was able to comprehend the Silent Voice of the One Existence. These were the "Seed Ideas" as yet unmanifest, but containing Potentially the WILL of the Father to manifest in a suitable Substance. This World is attributed to the First letter of the Ineffable Name, Yod, the Letter of the FATHER."

and then forcing each block to fit into that ideal, which may work,

Quote Achad:

"3. YETZIRAH is the FORMATIVE WORLD, the product of the previous two, where the perfected ideas having taken form, await a suitable material body in which to clothe them. It is the world of Symbols, something like the Plan of the Great Architect ready for execution. It is attributed to the letter Vau which is that of the SON."

if you have the types of blocks you need, if not you may have to mis-use or modify the blocks you have to fit your ideal product.

Quote Achad:

"2. BRIAH is the CREATIVE WORLD which, being impregnated with the Will or Life, of the Father is a LIVING SUBSTANCE, Understanding what is necessary to the gradual formation of the ideas and the preparation and bearing of them until perfectly fashioned. It is therefore referred to the Second Letter of the Name, Heh The Great Mother."

Now I realize this is just being nit-picky, but it seems that you went to make your Leggo creation with the idea of the four worlds out of alignment. I also see that you stopped short in your analogy, and never actually created anything with your Leggos.

The better way, is to take an inventory of each block, so that you know what is the nature and purpose of each kind of block. You can then modify your ideal result, to fit the blocks that you have, so that each one finds it's place in the whole.

Oh here we go, you changed your methods. My bad. I suppose all of the blocks set "so that each one finds its place in the whole" is the final manifestation of your idea.

Quote Achad:

4. ASSIAH is the MATERIAL WORLD wherein all these former worlds of fine matter are Materialized and Manifested in tangible form. It is the Universe as we know it through the five senses. This is attributed to the Final Heh which is called the DAUGHTER and is usually written with a dot in the centre to distinguish it from The Mother."

I do notice that you changed your original thinking up in order to accomplish the manifestation. So, which method is it that you are really using?

With humans you have to first give them total liberty

Atziluth.

and encourage them to use that liberty to express and experience as much as possible, art, science, sport, history, religion,

Yetzirah.

people will eventually narrow down their interests to just those that fit their own interests.

Briah.

As they narrow the focus, they will take shape as the particular blocks,

Assiah.

thus you can take inventory of these building materials

Assiah.

and rather than force people to dedicate their lives to some purpose they don't own,

Briah.

you first get them to own a purpose

Yetzirah.

and then we find a social role that supports that purpose.

Assiah.
__________________

Given the above, would you care to explain how, "

"name538" wrote:
ASSIAH is the only real world.

"?

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 12:28 am  

This is very simple, Archetypes, feelings, and ideas ARE the material world the chemical composition of the brain and body.

There is no such thing as a spiritual or non-physical anything, The only thing that exists are the arrangement of material objects in Space-time.

Now my point is that you can take your random box of leggos and try to build the pirate ship on the box. But you may or may not have all the pieces that you need to make that ship. So what can you do, you can make the pieces fit in which case you will be using many pieces in ways not suited to their nature, say you need a block with 4 pegs for your ship, but the closest size you have is a 6 peg block, which is too big. So you want the ship to be just like the box, so you cut off the hag over and turn the block to hide the pissing side. You make modifications to many of the blocks, so they fit into your ideal pirate ship. (This is not the Thelemic way)

The Thelemic approach is that you throw away the box, you don't have an Ideal finished product to start with. Instead you take inventory of what types of blocks you have. Then you see how they fit and link together, and what possible combinations are possible. Then by trial and error, by science and practical experience, you find the best possible arrangement between the blocks, and when you constantly work on the order to make it better and find ways to incorporate new blocks and to replace missing ones, with no ideals finished product. The ideal is to fit each block as it is into the system with as little having to modify them as possible.

You can either modify the ideal or the actual materials.
Since the individual people resent being modified and the idea is not a reality yet, it can be modified or totally done away with, without any physical things being harmed or misused.

The difference is between the the Idealism and the materialist. between a tree existing first as an immaterial form and then the form taking material manifestation.

and the Truth that a Tree is built of material substance from the soil ground up, with no finished product, or immaterial form in mind. The seed has a set of physical properties that interact with the soil to build the tree, but no sort of ideal forms exist.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 2:18 am  

That's funny, I could have sworn I had read, in the opening missive to this thread, the specific request :

"My suggestion as an alternative to arguing over various approaches to Thelema: Question for all: Behind all various approaches to Thelema, what is the essential quality of Thelema?"

and

"A remark to all: The subjectmatter in this thread is not arguing about various approaches to Thelema, but presenting what that to you is the essential quality of Thelema If someone feels tempted to derail from that subjectmatter, or are derailing from the subjectmatter, please do the Thelemic thing and exercise the power of your will in ignoring and/or suppressing such derailments."

I must have been Dreaming.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 2:38 am  

That is essentially what Thelema is.
it is the establishment of a social order based on the Facts of Nature (Facts of nature being the properties and purpose of the individual elements).

That is to say basing your life and the social aspects not on supernaturalism, not on ideals, morals, or passed down tradition, nor on the democratic ideal of the masses.

it means that you use the same science the same natural world to determine behavior, politics, ethics, and economics as you do to determine the course of the stars and the melting point of lead.

Thelema means act out of science and not any appeal to any other authority.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 2:52 am  

That is what Thelema is to you at this point in time. Thanks for sharing. Next.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 3:09 am  

That is what Thelema IS, that is what Crowley meant it to be, once you interpret all his prose and mystical jargon.
It is not a matter of personal taste. TRUE IS in and of itself, We have no effect on truth, we are a wash in truth, it is the ONE and only TRUTH that is for ALL


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 3:21 am  

I can't decide whether you sound like an Islamic cleric, a Christian evangelist, or Richard Dawkins. It's a three-strike scenario in any case.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 4:41 am  

The sun rises and sets.

It is not the sun rises and sets in my opinion, or in my world or according to me the sun rises and sets.

Now it is true that from a perspective point that from outside the earth the sun does not go dark and get light, the earth merely turns, but the fact of the earth turning is another way of explaining that the sun rises and set, ie parts of the earth get lighter and darker as it turns.

So yes there are some perspective differences as to the data that is collected to ascertain the truth. But their is ONE reality in which we all share, Which all theories and ideas must use as their standard and touch stone of validity. The touch stone is not, personal opinion or subjective world. You do not create the universe, you are cerated from the universe and are part of it, you don't create reality, you only have to live in it as it is.

Magick and Thelema is all about knowing reality as it is, not how it might seem in your opinion or what you might like it to be like.

That is what makes magick different from mysticism, the mystic can live in a fantasy world and simple construct an imaginary world view in which his ego is subtracted an call than attainment. Which it is an attainment of sort, an imaginary attainment that leads to conflated views about there is no truth, or truth is subjective, or my world vs your world, and all that post-modern nonsense.

Magick insists that you know reality and live in reality, The attainment is to balance yourself out against reality 0 = 2. The magician has to be a scientist, has to accept reality as it is, can not retreat into fantasy worlds of mysticism.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 4:51 am  

Also what is this hippy nonsense that no one has a right to be correct anymore.

What is wrong with Islam and Christianity is not that they are adamant about being correct.

It is that they are NOT CORRECT

2+2=17 is not correct, and it is a bad answer no matter how strong you believe or how many people back you up.

but if you get it right 2+2 =4

Then you have every right and duty to tell the world that you got it right, to put that right answer into practice everywhere it applies and to not accept the wrong answer from anyone no matter what!!


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 5:03 am  

"Magick is getting into communication with individuals who exist on a higher plane than ours. Mysticism is the raising of oneself to their level."
- Aleister Crowley in a letter to Germer, June 21, 1947

This quote begins the Editor's Introduction to the blue brick version of Magick


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 5:34 am  

name538, please stop trolling.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 5:57 am  

Entities on higher planes, are exactly the kind of things that Crowley stated it was a mistake to attribute any objective validity to, and thus treat such experiences as apparitions or mental phenomena. That in his private letter's Crowley expressed sloppy thinking that he himself warned against, is no indication that what he said is to be taken literally.

He know nothing of what we know about the physiology of the brain, and what really happens in mystical experiences as far as the effects it has on the temporal lobe and the constructed self image, the sense of space-time awareness, etc. If Crowley had access to the science of today in his time, he would have dropped all pretense to spiritual beings and language of higher planes, in favor of a more rigorous model with scientific data to back it up.

Crowley was trained as an engineer, much like R. Buckminster Fuller and Count Korzybski.
The most rigorously scientific of all minds, the engineer, only tentatively accepts mysterious psuedo-explanations with no grounding in hard facts.

The essence of thelema is in the motto of the Equinox.
The method of science, the aim of religion.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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27/05/2010 7:12 am  

93,

"name538" wrote:
Entities on higher planes, are exactly the kind of things that Crowley stated it was a mistake to attribute any objective validity to, and thus treat such experiences as apparitions or mental phenomena. That in his private letter's Crowley expressed sloppy thinking that he himself warned against, is no indication that what he said is to be taken literally.

I'm glad Crowley to Germer, one Master to another, is littered with "sloppy thinking".

Quantum Mechanics, for those who think trees are solids, along with thought-forms.

93 93/93


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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27/05/2010 7:40 am  

93!

The kids have nets, and each of them is carrying a box,
as they pass the house whilst I sit on the steps
taking in the sun.
Off to the canal they go! To collect whatever it is they will look for today.

After an hour or so they come back with 2 boxes, and ask me to keep the boxes safe whilst they return to collect more of whatever it is they happen to be collecting.

I peek inside a box and find that it contains 5 toads!
I peak inside the other, and find it has 5 more toads.

An hour later they come back with 2 more boxes.
They ask if I can help carry those last 2 boxes to their house, which happens to be a block away from mine.
I agree,
only on condition that they show me what they have in those last two boxes, just in case they are smuggling contraband into the house using me as the patsy, and toads for a front.
The last two boxes contain, more toads!
One box having 5 toads, and the other having 2.

So we have two boxes brought back together on the first occasion, containing 10 toads,
and two boxes brought back together on the last occasion, having 7 toads.
Meaning, 2 + 2 in this case, can indeed give us 17, from an altogether different perspective, once we see that the boxes also contain a number of items.
Yes, things can indeed be exactly what they seem to be:
Yet,
can be even much more than they obviously seem to be,
whilst still remaining true to what they really are.

Just imagine if I put four large boxes on a table, and asked an audience
how many boxes I have.. If they said four without hesitating to think, going on what is first presented to their sight, they might be quite shocked to discover,
that each one of those 4 boxes contains many more boxes of increasingly smaller sizes stuffed within each other!

Come to think about it, those toad collecting kids, most likely had the last two boxes they returned with, stuffed inside the first two boxes they brought with them to the canal.

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 11:48 am  

The boxes do not change based on your knowledge.

further the number of boxes do not change, nor the number of toads, You are being dishonest by not changing the label of your units, mid equation. Likewise smaller boxes are not included in the original question about the total boxes.

My perspective and my knowledge do not change the number of things, a thing is what it is and as many as it is, no matter if I know it or not, and even if I do not exist, things are still the same as they ever were.

As for sloppy thinking any time you talk about spirits, elementals, ghosts, non-physical forces, planes, spheres, or any other nonsense than has no physical world meaning to it, you are using sloppy thinking, unless you are sure to make it obvious that you are speaking in metaphors, in order to express an aspect of reality for which science as you know it has not yet provided a more suitable explanation of those experiences as part of the natural and physical world. That is the acceptance of sloppy thinking, myths, superstition explaining one mystery with another, the unexplained described by the unexplainable, is a fallacious explanation.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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27/05/2010 5:19 pm  

93,

"name538" wrote:
As for sloppy thinking any time you talk about spirits, elementals, ghosts, non-physical forces, planes, spheres, or any other nonsense than has no physical world meaning to it, you are using sloppy thinking, unless you are sure to make it obvious that you are speaking in metaphors, in order to express an aspect of reality for which science as you know it has not yet provided a more suitable explanation of those experiences as part of the natural and physical world. That is the acceptance of sloppy thinking, myths, superstition explaining one mystery with another, the unexplained described by the unexplainable, is a fallacious explanation.

Bold in your quote is mine.

Do you actually believe that they were talking in anything but metaphors? When Crowley discusses Evocation, do you think he is talking about summoning Belial to come cook his dinner, or traits of his mind which he has labeled Belial, those traits being a part of his own person in a such a way that those traits need to be controlled... a mnemonic device for personifying parts of the mind in order to become familiar with it and essentially, "master" it?

Really, I want to know. It seems lately people are so hell-bent on things like this. "Oh, Crowley and his demons!" And it seems they are so caught up in disbelieving that little tiny devils can run around your living room that they fail to see the real function of the idea of demons. I can understand it from from a fundie, but on these boards it's just plain lame.

For some people to constantly sit and "try to dispel the myths of Magickal practices", it really says more about you than it does about this forum. From what I can tell most people who participate in this forum have already been through that mess time and time again, and therefore what you are saying is simply old news. Again, it says more about the speaker than the listener. Are you trying to "dispel the myths" until you believe it for yourself? Are you assuming that many of the people on these forums don't already know what you are saying, and that it is not old news?

Get over it. No one is here to get "a daily dose of disillusionment". It doesn't make you cool to keep bringing the shit up over and over again. We all know Crowley was talking in metaphor to Germer. Germer himself knew it. In the world of assumptions, when one Master is speaking to another, it should be assumed the highest possible level of that speech. One shouldn't assume the lower level of that speech, that Crowley has little demons hold the door for him as he leaves the house. Seriously, do you have no respect for those who have tread the Path before you?

Oh, by the way, where oh where do I find scientific proof (actual sources please) that the mind is a physical, material thing, hrm?

93 93/93


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mika
 mika
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27/05/2010 6:18 pm  

Well said, Azidonis. Regarding both the actual function of demons, and the patronizing assumptions.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 6:55 pm  

Do I really need to to direct you to the myriad of neuro-biology text books, that explain the biological workings of the brain without any assumption of a ghost in the shell or such bullshit as a conscious force or fields, nor other spiritual planes of reality.

There is no part of the mind that is not a function of the brain, and the only sense that can be made of Consciousness not being localized to the brain, is in the sense than all things are part of one material process, and thus the brain function is effected by the food you eat which is made of the soil and the stored energy of the sun, which is regulated in it's place by the motion of other stars etc.

But the same reason we attribute the music we hear to the content of the CD and not to the EMF fluctuation of Digama Alpha, we attribute conscious thought to the brain and not to the dust storms on Mars or the flapping of a birds wings in china.

Also I have had to fight with far too many people that spirits are not in fact really spirits but in fact metaphors for perfectly natural and physical events in the brain, many times, and I am not so sure everyone on here gets it. Not just about spirits but the entire mandate to ground every experience in materialist science.

Erwin does, but he throws the baby out with the bath water, deciding that if spirits are not literal occult ritual is hokum. LOS seems to get it, and is less hostile to occult practice than Erwin. IAO131 with his natural religion might get it, but those hippies that promote natural religion are basically very hippie Political correct activists trying to create a watered down and pointless idea of God that offends the least people, which is part of a social and a political view that is very counter-Thelemic in nature. (Natural religion, why not just be a proper atheist, like Dawkins and Dennet)

Any event, I also do not know that Crowley was always using metaphor, he was very attracted to the idea that his experiences were literal and that he was in contact with real extraterrestrial beings. In his life his beliefs about these experiences faltered back and forth, quite a bit. I don't think he ever come to a final conclusion. When he was writing his most official documents he was sure to advise questioning such things. But in his personal letters he would express belief or disbelief as to how he felt at the time of the letter, or to whatever language would most impress the recipient. So yes, in his personal letters he used sloppy thinking that he tried to avoid when making professional statements.


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mika
 mika
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27/05/2010 7:08 pm  
"name538" wrote:
Any event, I also do not know that Crowley was always using metaphor, he was very attracted to the idea that his experiences were literal and that he was in contact with real extraterrestrial beings.

Please provide quotes from Crowley that support your statement above.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
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27/05/2010 7:15 pm  
"name538" wrote:
The sun rises and sets.

No, the sun does nothing of the sort. It appears to do so only from the inaccurate perspective of a tiny inhabitant on some of its orbiting satellites.

I believe that you've had a fair hearing, at least I've devoted my own time to it, but your ideas toward a proposed social and political application of the Law of Thelema are impossible to put into actual practice on a scale large enough to be significant in the modern world of today. Even if they were feasible in themselves, which they are not, they do not comprehensively represent the core principles and values of Thelema as presented by Liber AL and Aleister Crowley - they contradict many of them, imo - and you have demonstrated neither the personal education nor practical experience necessary to be able to present them cogently or to defend them from legitimate criticism. They belong either in very small scale experiments or perhaps in a glass case marked, "in case of apocalypse with 99.9999...% world population reduction, break glass" and, frankly, outright anarchy would be much easier to manage even under those circumstances.

I would suggest, name538, that you focus on the subject of this thread, the essential quality of Thelema, so as to develop some significant level of understanding of that subject, before attempting any sort of social or political elaboration upon those themes, and that you be prepared to devote a significant amount of additional personal time and work in preparation for that undertaking.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 7:17 pm  
"name538" wrote:
That in his private letter's Crowley expressed sloppy thinking that he himself warned against, is no indication that what he said is to be taken literally.

The quote I gave:

"Magick is getting into communication with individuals who exist on a higher plane than ours. Mysticism is the raising of oneself to their level."
- Aleister Crowley in a letter to Germer, June 21, 1947

Is not sloppy thinking at all, but very clear and precise. He distills essential qualities of magick and mysticism in two very direct sentences. Obviously Hymenaeus Beta likes it too or he wouldn't have used it to begin one of Crowley's most significant works.

"name538" wrote:
Entities on higher planes, are exactly the kind of things that Crowley stated it was a mistake to attribute any objective validity to, and thus treat such experiences as apparitions or mental phenomena.

Once again, you're butchering Crowley. The quote you refer to:

"It is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
—"Liber O"

The instruction is to try the experiments and not be concerned whether the phenomena is real or not. There is no indication otherwise on how to view such experiences.

"I am not concerned to deny the objective reality of all "magical" phenomena; if they are illusions, they are at least as real as many unquestioned facts of daily life; and...they are at least evidence of some cause."
— Crowley, The Goetia

As I've already mentioned in another thread:

Crowley's rebuttal to the uninitiated view called "naive realism" is found in Book 4 in the section The Claim of the Book of the Law to Open up Communication with Disincarnate Intelligence. It's on p.684 of the blue brick. The whole thing is worth reading, but here are some highlights:

Yet the average man of science still denies the existence of the elementals of the Rosicrucian, the angels of the Qabalist... with the same bland misosphy as in Victorian days. It has apparently not occurred to him that his position in doubting the existence of consciousness except in connection with certain types of anatomical structure, is really identical with that of the narrowest geocentric and anthropocentric Evangelicals. It is comic to limit consciousness... The arguments against the existence of spiritual Intelligences stink of false analogy; on top of being attempts to prove a universal negative...


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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27/05/2010 7:24 pm  

93,

"name538" wrote:
Do I really need to to direct you to the myriad of neuro-biology text books, that explain the biological workings of the brain without any assumption of a ghost in the shell or such bullshit as a conscious force or fields, nor other spiritual planes of reality.

Yes, you do. Internet links work fine. Especially be sure to include the part where they explicitly state the the mind is more than a set of neurological functions.

Be sure to include how they use this information to explain Carl Jung's idea of Synchronicity, along with the idea of collective consciousness.

Also be sure to include the hard evidence that the mind is a material thing in and of itself, and that it is able to be held in one's hand like the human brain or heart would be.

Go ahead, prove that the mind is an actual material substance, scientifically, without contradicting yourself and going beyond the boundaries you have already set for yourself in your other essays.

Yes, please prove that the mind is strictly a material object.

93 93/93


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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27/05/2010 7:24 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"name538" wrote:
The sun rises and sets.

No, the sun does nothing of the sort. It appears to do so only from the inaccurate perspective of a tiny inhabitant on some of its orbiting satellites.

That's what name538 said! Give the man a chance!

OK


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 Anonymous
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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 7:43 pm  

tsk tsk

Azi
I did not say the Mind is some material thing, other than the brain.
I clearly said that The brain is the mind. they are not two things.
Just like the Television an the images on the screen are not two different things.
The images are chemicals on the screen lit up by EMF radiation, from the cathode ray.

The mind is the activity of the physical brain, activity is not a THING itself, it is movement of a thing.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 7:50 pm  

Why should my social system not work, it requires communal interaction, it requires that a body of the wise study the masses and their free behavior, in order to direct each one to their best suited social role, and not seek to promote non-productive social roles, (Like spoiled rich playboy) as the ideal for all.
It promotes that each member be cared for within the community, and not wasting resources outside the community, it seeks to reduce large scale trade in favor of local consumption of local production. It promotes rituals than provide a sense of community, brotherhood and loyalty to local principles as well as rituals than promote a sense of harmony with nature, the seasons, etc.

It promotes a form of agriculture that produces greater yield, does not import pesticides, or use machines, provides healthy labor, and produces a healthy food stock for the community, While reducing the reliance on corporation and other external trade, including the debt-slavery of the big banks.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 7:55 pm  
"name538" wrote:
tsk tsk

Azi
I did not say the Mind is some material thing, other than the brain.
I clearly said that The brain is the mind. they are not two things.
Just like the Television an the images on the screen are not two different things.
The images are chemicals on the screen lit up by EMF radiation, from the cathode ray.

The mind is the activity of the physical brain, activity is not a THING itself, it is movement of a thing.

Sloppy thinking also includes not remembering what you wrote a mere few days ago.

name538 wrote:

The mind is physical as is the body.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 8:03 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
That's what name538 said! Give the man a chance!
OK

Sorry, OK, you're right; but I was addressing in main his "plan" in my last post. (My haste made for waste.)

To the question at hand, AC did clearly state in his intro (Initiated Interpretation...) to the Goetia: "The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain."

But then there is the matter of "praeter-human intelligence."

I believe that science has the best chance of transcending the apparent contradiction here, in a manner much less susceptible to scrutiny than are our anecdotal personal experiences, which are all we really have at present, unless any of the "proofs" to date were to be widely accepted. It is only a matter of time for science, though, imo.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 8:10 pm  

The mind is physical as is the body

I did say that.

If Mind is the activity of the brain as I have said.

Then Mind is a synonym of brain. Or more correctly there is no "mind".
When I said the Mind is physical that means, what people mean by the mind is actually the Brain.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 8:20 pm  

My plan.

is to express the essential nature of Thelema as being that of Physical science as an investigation into the principle interactions between the part and the whole, the discrete and the continuous, the individual and society, Then to use those principles in application to all aspects of life. Which include the social order, such that the individuals via voluntarily restraining themselves to that social order are better able to express the potential of their individual WILL.

Those principles must be discovered and understood with the highest scientific rigor not constructed merely of anecdotes, and the replacement of poetic and spiritualist jargon with science and mathematical explanations is vital to success.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
27/05/2010 8:39 pm  
"name538" wrote:
The mind is physical as is the body

I did say that.

If Mind is the activity of the brain as I have said.

Then Mind is a synonym of brain. Or more correctly there is no "mind".
When I said the Mind is physical that means, what people mean by the mind is actually the Brain.

Well, that's one opinion.

Buckminster Fuller on the difference between brain and mind:

The difference between mind and brain is that brain deals only with memorized, subjective, special-case experiences and objective experiments, while mind extracts and employs the generalized principles and integrates and interrelates their effective employment. Brain deals exclusively with the physical, and mind exclusively with the metaphysical.


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 8:52 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
To the question at hand, AC did clearly state in his intro (Initiated Interpretation...) to the Goetia: "The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain."

Yes, in this introduction Crowley uses a materialistic explanation to account for goetic spirits and their effects. He doesn't say that these spirits do not exist. He's also refreshingly nondogmatic with this explanation. AC doesn't claim this as an absolute fact or the objective truth but says:

"And this is a purely materialistic, rational statement; it is independent of any objective hierarchy at all. Philosophy has nothing to say; and Science can only suspend judgement, pending a proper and methodical investigation of the facts alleged."


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 Anonymous
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27/05/2010 9:22 pm  
"zardoz" wrote:
"Camlion" wrote:
To the question at hand, AC did clearly state in his intro (Initiated Interpretation...) to the Goetia: "The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain."

Yes, in this introduction Crowley uses a materialistic explanation to account for goetic spirits and their effects. He doesn't say that these spirits do not exist. He's also refreshingly nondogmatic with this explanation. AC doesn't claim this as an absolute fact or the objective truth but says:

"And this is a purely materialistic, rational statement; it is independent of any objective hierarchy at all. Philosophy has nothing to say; and Science can only suspend judgement, pending a proper and methodical investigation of the facts alleged."

Exactly, Z.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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27/05/2010 10:09 pm  

93,

Thanks for the links. I just spent 45 minutes of my life "learning" things I already knew.

Neither the philosopher or the neuro-scientist were able to state that the mind was a material substance. The philosopher stated that the "self" was a combination of chemical reactions, and the neuro-scientist took it no further.

A truck is a very complex mechanical gadget. However, when you start the truck, you hear the engine roar. The engine makes sounds, and the truck takes on a certain "life" other than the "life" it had sitting in your driveway. As a part of that life, the truck goes through various phases of existence, needs mechanical attention, and so forth. The truck itself however is not cognizant or aware, at all.

Humans are aware. When the body sleeps and all of its functions slow down it is still aware. When the body wakes up, it is still aware. When asleep, as when awake, the "identity" remains in tact. What chemical functions continue to occur in the brain while one is asleep I have no idea. The point is, sleep is like putting the truck into Park and letting it idle. When the gears are changed, the truck begins to move. Are humans not similar to this?

The fact is that if the truck engine isn't started, and the engine isn't running, the engine will not hum. Humans, while they are alive, are always humming. People attribute the cognizance of humans to the magnificent brains we have.

These brains are continually making synapses, producing chemicals, etc. These processes are put into various symbols, and interpreted, creating an identity. However, in no science has it been proven that there is a spot in the brain or any other part of the body in which the mind sets and performs these duties. For as much as we know, the mind is the label of the humming engine. It is the label given to the interpreter of biological and neurological functions. But this interpreter has not been found as an actual physical component of the body.

Even the neuro-scientist pointed out that they are at the stage of neuro-science that Aristotle was in with logic hundreds of years ago. Aristotle's efforts have been heavily expounded since his time.

I'm not saying that they will never actually find this mysterious "mind" object inside the brain or elsewhere. I'm saying that they have not found it yet, and until you can reach into a human body an pull out this "mind" thing, you cannot say that the mind is material or even physical, especially when for all we know it is simply a label for a collection of physical processes.

93 93/93


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