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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
27/05/2010 11:57 pm  

Yes, try to take the mind out of the brain.

Next we can take the driving out of the truck.

Get good at that and we can pull out the dead Jew from the bread.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
28/05/2010 6:06 am  
"name538" wrote:
Yes, try to take the mind out of the brain.

Next we can take the driving out of the truck.

Get good at that and we can pull out the dead Jew from the bread.

93,

Bravo! You have yet to prove the mind itself is a physical object, strictly material as you may say.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
28/05/2010 8:32 am  

Trying to "prove" that matter is primary, and consciousness is an epiphenomenon, and tertiary at best, is not only doomed to fail, it is both unscientific and anti-human, and therefore pointless.

There you are: Doomed and pointless. Let's move on, shall we?


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 10:50 am  

I never said that consciousness is an epiphenomena I said than Consciousness is the brain.

It is no more a epiphenomena than running is an epiphenomena of legs, or than ticking is an epiphenomena of clocks.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 3:04 pm  

Bit fond of "is", isn't you?

Ever heard of e-prime? Google it. You may be surprised - no, relieved - to discover just how little most of what you have written in here actually means.

And hopefully flexify (and sexify! rowr!) your opinions, judgements, and - dareIsay - beliefs, which you seem to confuse with facts, simply because you can arrange words to say as much.

It in't, innit.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 3:50 pm  

Should you be so naive as to continue with your plan of dead-mechanical reductionism of the human race, which is surely the last word in scientism, (hell, even the most literalistic social sciences have given up on that one) I think you'll find not only that matter isn't really matter at all anyway (which even physicists will admit), it doesn't matter, either, where consciousness is concerned. It's like a veil over a reality which is, in fact, 100% mind. It's not a case of "mind over matter". It's just "mind". In other words, consciousness : yours. Congratulations.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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28/05/2010 5:08 pm  

93,

Below are some highlights of my recent conversation with name538. I've not used the quote feature in an effort to make it all easier to read and understand. The emphasis is mine. The words are direct quotes.
___________________________________________

Quote Azidonis:

Given the above, would you care to explain how, "ASSIAH is the only real world"?

Quote name538:

This is very simple, Archetypes, feelings, and ideas ARE the material world the chemical composition of the brain and body.

There is no such thing as a spiritual or non-physical anything, The only thing that exists are the arrangement of material objects in Space-time.

There is no part of the mind that is not a function of the brain, and the only sense that can be made of Consciousness not being localized to the brain, is in the sense than all things are part of one material process, and thus the brain function is effected by the food you eat which is made of the soil and the stored energy of the sun, which is regulated in it's place by the motion of other stars etc.

I did not say the Mind is some material thing, other than the brain.

I clearly said that The brain is the mind. they are not two things. ... The mind is the activity of the physical brain, activity is not a THING itself, it is movement of a thing.

The mind is physical as is the body
I did say that.
If Mind is the activity of the brain as I have said.
Then Mind is a synonym of brain. Or more correctly there is no "mind".
When I said the Mind is physical that means, what people mean by the mind is actually the Brain.

Quote Azdonis:

I'm not saying that they will never actually find this mysterious "mind" object inside the brain or elsewhere. I'm saying that they have not found it yet, and until you can reach into a human body and pull out this "mind" thing, you cannot say that the mind is material or even physical, especially when for all we know it is simply a label for a collection of physical processes.

Bravo! You have yet to prove the mind itself is a physical object, strictly material as you may say.
___________________________________________

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 6:30 pm  

Cut your head open or the head of anyone open,
you see that squishy grayish thing in there that kinda looks like cauliflower. THAT IS THE PHYSICAL MIND OBJECT!

Anything and Everything you want to know about "The mind" IS THAT THING!.

And no the world is not MIND, the mind is the brain the brain is merely a mechanical device than records impressions from the sense organs, which are effected by other physical objects in the world.

There is no ghost in the shell, and solipsism is absurd.

Sure our phenomenal awareness is all changes in the physical brain matter, but those changes are CAUSED by the things them selves that exist in a physical sense outside the mind, in the WORLD. The one and the same world that we all live in, the Physical world, which WE are made of the same physical stuff.

There is no "MIND" only the brain and the interactions it has with impressions, (A sensory impression is a Physical change in a sense organ. that causes a physical change in the nerves that cause physical events to happen in the brain) It is all 100% mechanical. Like ever thing else in the world.

Further General semantics and E-prime are not meant to be abused such as to claim there is no world outside the mind of the observer, it is meant to include the information of the nervous system as the Physical instrument of measurement and include the margins of error on that Physical tool, (As engineers do with everything, they say X is 3 cm + or - 1% using an oak ruler at 30 degrees Centigrade under normal air pressure.) They do that because wooden rulers are physical objects subject to the influence of the environment, If they were mental images, the figments of the imagination, they would by perfect and unchanging.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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28/05/2010 6:58 pm  

93!

"If they were mental images, the figments of the imagination, they would by perfect and unchanging"

name 538, Are you saying, that fluxing is not an aspect of mental images?
If something is perfect, does that mean it becomes imperfect if it
changes in some way?
Does a tangible, or an imagined Chameleon, upon changing colour, become less Chameleon like?
To me, the Chameleon that never changed its colour,
be it real, or imagined,
would be an imperfect Chameleon.
Also, exactly what is a figment of the imagination that makes it so
unchanging?
This perfect and unchanging stuff, I seem to recollect from some
Christian doctrine and dogma.

93! 93! 93!


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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28/05/2010 7:10 pm  

93,

"name538" wrote:
Cut your head open or the head of anyone open,
you see that squishy grayish thing in there that kinda looks like cauliflower. THAT IS THE PHYSICAL MIND OBJECT!

That's just the Brain. Brain and Mind are two different words, describing two different concepts.

Anything and Everything you want to know about "The mind" IS THAT THING!.

No.

And no the world is not MIND, the mind is the brain the brain is merely a mechanical device than records impressions from the sense organs, which are effected by other physical objects in the world.

The Brain is the Brain, and the Mind is the Mind... hence the individual labels.

There is no ghost in the shell, and solipsism is absurd.

So many metaphors make my Brain hurt... my Mind remains unaffected.

Sure our phenomenal awareness is all changes in the physical brain matter, but those changes are CAUSED by the things them selves that exist in a physical sense outside the mind, in the WORLD. The one and the same world that we all live in, the Physical world, which WE are made of the same physical stuff.

Now you seem to be saying the physical world (ie. Assiah) is the only thing that can create these changes in the Brain. I don't suppose the Brain has ever conjured up images for itself, say, in cases of insanity.

There is no "MIND" only the brain and the interactions it has with impressions, (A sensory impression is a Physical change in a sense organ. that causes a physical change in the nerves that cause physical events to happen in the brain) It is all 100% mechanical. Like ever thing else in the world.

Wait, haven't you been saying the Mind is physical all this time? Now you saying there isn't one?

Further General semantics and E-prime are not meant to be abused such as to claim there is no world outside the mind of the observer,

Actually, I will continue to use semantics in our discussion because you continue to contradict yourself. Worse, you fail to admit when you have made a mistake. Thus, while I may even agree with you, I will continue to argue the semantics, until you begin to say what you mean instead of trying to confuse people.

it is meant to include the information of the nervous system as the Physical instrument of measurement and include the margins of error on that Physical tool, (As engineers do with everything, they say X is 3 cm + or - 1% using an oak ruler at 30 degrees Centigrade under normal air pressure.) They do that because wooden rulers are physical objects subject to the influence of the environment, If they were mental images, the figments of the imagination, they would by perfect and unchanging.

Perfect and unchanging? Really? Enjoy that one, sonofthestar. 🙂

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 7:18 pm  

Do I have to take you through Donald duck in Mathemagic land.

The mind's eye is perfect and can imagine perfect circles and images that are precise to the infinite degree, sharper than any pencil tip can draw. In the mind pi is possible, but not in actuality.

The mind can do this, because it uses representations an actual perfect circle is made of atoms, and to be truly perfect it has to be of finner resolution than the atoms it is made of, the circle in the mind is not actually circular in shape, it is some coarser events in the brain, that represents a circle mathematically. You can take the brain pattern that represents infinity and add it to say a line, and imagine an infinite like, with a finite brain. Likewise such things can be modeled on a computer, even if you can only represent the line finitely on the screen. It takes very little memory to generate the formula necessary to draw an infinite line. The formula y=x is only 3 characters not infinite characters to represent the line. The brain works the same way as the written math, using smaller Physical patterns to represent larger ones.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 7:25 pm  

The mind is a synonym for the brain.

The word mind was invented before people knew what the brain was. The greeks believed that the Mind was in the belly, and the emotions in the heart, the heart interfered with the belly as he words came out the mouth.

That is not haw it works.

The BRIAN is the mind. There is not a mind and a brain. There is only the brain.

In speech we use words and phrases from archaic times, we are used to saying mind rather than brain from back in days where people did not know about the brain.

I walked across the room to the door and I trans-navigated the room to the door both mean exactly the same thing.

Just like Mind and Brain.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 7:30 pm  
"name538" wrote:
solipsism is absurd.

name538, this being the Home of the AC Society and all, what is your opinion on this by Crowley:

I also am a Star in Space, unique and self-existent, an individual essence incorruptible; I also am one Soul; I am identical with All and None. I am in All and all in me; I am, apart from all and lord of all, and one with all.

I am God, I very God of very God; I go upon my way to work my Will; I have made Matter and Motion for my mirror; I have decreed for my delight that Nothingness should figure itself as twain, that I might dream a dance of names and natures, and enjoy the substance of simplicity by watching the wanderings of my shadows. I am not that which is not; I know not that which knows not; I love that which loves not. For I am Love, whereby division dies in delight; I am Knowledge, whereby all parts, plunged in the whole, perish and pass into perfection; and I am that I am, the being wherein Being is lost in Nothing, nor designs to be but its Will to unfold its nature, its need to express its perfection in all possibilities, each phase a partial phantasm, and yet inevitable and absolute.

I am Omniscient, for naught exists for me unless I know it. I am Omnipotent, for naught occurs save by Necessity, my soul's expression through my Will to be, to do, to suffer the symbols of itself. I am Omnipresent, for naught exists where I am not, who fashioned Space as a condition of my consciousness of myself, who am the centre of all, and my circumference the frame of mine own fancy.

I am the All, for all that exists for me is a necessary expression in thought of some tendency of my nature, and all my thoughts are only the letters of my Name.

I am the One, for all that I am is not the absolute All, and all my all is mine and not another's; mine, who conceive of others like myself in essence and truth, yet unlike in expression and illusion.

I am the None, for all that I am is the imperfect image of the perfect; each partial phantom must perish in the grasp of its counterpart, each form fulfill itself by finding its equated opposite, and satisfying its need to be the Absolute by the attainment of annihilation.


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 Anonymous
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28/05/2010 7:44 pm  

I have produced that same experience, or one very similar. It is the activity of the brain.

The brain creates our phenomenal awareness, so yes all that we see and touch, is a model generated by the brain to express the sensory information that it receives. When you introspect deeply, you start interfering with, shutting off, and altering aspects of how the brain constructs the mental model that naive realism calls the world.

The Self is also a construction or model that is derived from that raw and undifferentiated sense data. So that if you trace back the process by which the brain changes sense inputs into a coherent model or reality, you get to a point where that Data is not yet divided into Self and Other awareness. (This is the pre-Ego awareness). This process all occurs in side the meat brain of one little primate, it is not the Whole universe, it is only the content of the monkey brain, as it formulates a personal Cosmos out of the uniform Chaos.

The REAL physical world which is not in the monkey brain of the man, goes on according the the inertia of time and the mechanical laws of physics, the brain itself is but one object in the universe of objects, and the entire little world inside each brain is but an imperfect construction of the Physical world beyond. (Not the Whole physical world, it is a construction of only those parts of the world which it has experienced, ie those than happened to have bumped into the sense organs of the organism)

You will find that if you compare this model with Crowley's account I have not altered his account, he is clearly not claiming that he is or has total control over the whole Objective and external universe, only that he has experienced a a greater depth and control over of his own subjective mind, which is still subject to the laws and rules of the brain's objective constitution in the physical world.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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Posts: 2964
28/05/2010 7:58 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
"name538" wrote:
solipsism is absurd.

name538, this being the Home of the AC Society and all, what is your opinion on this by Crowley:

I also am a Star in Space, unique and self-existent, an individual essence incorruptible; I also am one Soul; I am identical with All and None. I am in All and all in me; I am, apart from all and lord of all, and one with all.

I am God, I very God of very God; I go upon my way to work my Will; I have made Matter and Motion for my mirror; I have decreed for my delight that Nothingness should figure itself as twain, that I might dream a dance of names and natures, and enjoy the substance of simplicity by watching the wanderings of my shadows. I am not that which is not; I know not that which knows not; I love that which loves not. For I am Love, whereby division dies in delight; I am Knowledge, whereby all parts, plunged in the whole, perish and pass into perfection; and I am that I am, the being wherein Being is lost in Nothing, nor designs to be but its Will to unfold its nature, its need to express its perfection in all possibilities, each phase a partial phantasm, and yet inevitable and absolute.

I am Omniscient, for naught exists for me unless I know it. I am Omnipotent, for naught occurs save by Necessity, my soul's expression through my Will to be, to do, to suffer the symbols of itself. I am Omnipresent, for naught exists where I am not, who fashioned Space as a condition of my consciousness of myself, who am the centre of all, and my circumference the frame of mine own fancy.

I am the All, for all that exists for me is a necessary expression in thought of some tendency of my nature, and all my thoughts are only the letters of my Name.

I am the One, for all that I am is not the absolute All, and all my all is mine and not another's; mine, who conceive of others like myself in essence and truth, yet unlike in expression and illusion.

I am the None, for all that I am is the imperfect image of the perfect; each partial phantom must perish in the grasp of its counterpart, each form fulfill itself by finding its equated opposite, and satisfying its need to be the Absolute by the attainment of annihilation.

93,

Beautiful quote, Cam. Where's it from?

93 93/93


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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28/05/2010 7:59 pm  

93,

"name538" wrote:
I have produced that same experience, or one very similar. It is the activity of the brain.

The brain creates our phenomenal awareness, so yes all that we see and touch, is a model generated by the brain to express the sensory information that it receives. When you introspect deeply, you start interfering with, shutting off, and altering aspects of how the brain constructs the mental model that naive realism calls the world.

The Self is also a construction or model that is derived from that raw and undifferentiated sense data. So that if you trace back the process by which the brain changes sense inputs into a coherent model or reality, you get to a point where that Data is not yet divided into Self and Other awareness. (This is the pre-Ego awareness). This process all occurs in side the meat brain of one little primate, it is not the Whole universe, it is only the content of the monkey brain, as it formulates a personal Cosmos out of the uniform Chaos.

The REAL physical world which is not in the monkey brain of the man, goes on according the the inertia of time and the mechanical laws of physics, the brain itself is but one object in the universe of objects, and the entire little world inside each brain is but an imperfect construction of the Physical world beyond. (Not the Whole physical world, it is a construction of only those parts of the world which it has experienced, ie those than happened to have bumped into the sense organs of the organism)

You will find that if you compare this model with Crowley's account I have not altered his account, he is clearly not claiming that he is or has total control over the whole Objective and external universe, only that he has experienced a a greater depth and control over of his own subjective mind, which is still subject to the laws and rules of the brain's objective constitution in the physical world.

I would quote your comment about the mind and brain some more, but it has become bothersome.

Do tell, what do you think of the concept of duality?

93 93/93


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
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Posts: 501
28/05/2010 8:04 pm  
"name538" wrote:
The BRIAN is the mind.

I thoroughly agree.

Besides that the section of Liber V, which is in fact a misquote - nor designs should be nor deigns - is in any case an incantation not a statement of belief.

Sorry but I just can't resist typo spotting when I'm bored.

OK

ps As for the subject of duality, well I'm in two minds about it.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 8:16 pm  

you can transcend duality in two ways.

Atziluth or Assiah

You can look at nature and the external world and see that your physical body is constantly breaking down and reconstructing itself from the matter of the world. That you are all one substance, with the air you breath, the soil, the water cycles and even the sunlight that powers all life.

You can also transcend duality, via deep introspection tracing the brain activity back to Atiziluth where the Raw sensory data is not divided into self and other. This is the Pregnant void of Buddhism.

Presumably you can unite these two methods and forms into a higher unity, or annihilate them into 0.
I don't know, I have not attained this, so I can not ever say that it is possible for sure.

The other two I have had some small success with.


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 Anonymous
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Posts: 0
28/05/2010 8:21 pm  
"name538" wrote:
I
You will find that if you compare this model with Crowley's account I have not altered his account

Neither have you included in your model several of the ideas expressed by Crowley in the piece.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
28/05/2010 8:28 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
Besides that the section of Liber V, which is in fact a misquote - nor designs should be nor deigns - is in any case an incantation not a statement of belief.

Sorry but I just can't resist typo spotting when I'm bored.

OK

ps As for the subject of duality, well I'm in two minds about it.

Actually, it is from "an impression of the ideas implied" in the incantation proper, from Liber V. (I cleaned up the very messy internet version as much as I could in the time available, but thanks OK.)


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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28/05/2010 8:56 pm  
"OKontrair" wrote:
"name538" wrote:
The BRIAN is the mind.

I thoroughly agree.

OK

93,

I disagree in that I am of the opinion that the brain creates the mind. All of the chemical, and sensory things going on in the brain itself have an effect. The effect of that interplay is the mind. Therefore, while the brain is physical, the mind is not. The word "mind" is a label of the result of the processes carried out in the brain, not the processes themselves, nor the brain itself. The mind is a product of the brain functions.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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28/05/2010 9:06 pm  

The product of physical events are physical events.

The clock is the end product of the turning gears interacting, but their is no non-physical element or product in the clock.
The mind is the product of the brain in the exact same way that circulation is the product of the heart, and the breath is the product of the lungs.

The breath is not any kind of non-physical thing, it is the movement of air caused by the lungs.
The mind then being the activity of the brain, is the movement of electrical charges and chemicals in the brain cells.

The breath is not a thing itself, its an activity that air undergoes in the body. Mind is not a thing itself it is the activity that chemical undergo in the brain.


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Azidonis
(@azidonis)
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28/05/2010 9:17 pm  
"name538" wrote:
The product of physical events are physical events.

The clock is the end product of the turning gears interacting, but their is no non-physical element or product in the clock.
The mind is the product of the brain in the exact same way that circulation is the product of the heart, and the breath is the product of the lungs.

The breath is not any kind of non-physical thing, it is the movement of air caused by the lungs.
The mind then being the activity of the brain, is the movement of electrical charges and chemicals in the brain cells.

The breath is not a thing itself, its an activity that air undergoes in the body. Mind is not a thing itself it is the activity that chemical undergo in the brain.

93,

Explain sound, then tell me whether or not the mind is the "sound" of the brain.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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28/05/2010 9:36 pm  

Sound is the compression of air molecules, (which is caused by an object vibrating that pushes the air around it) that move in a transverse wave, like the ripple across a slinky.
These waves of air compression transfer motion to more solid mediums, like the tympanic membrane in the middle ear. This these vibrations case the movement of three small bones in the ear, which stimulate nerve pulses that travel into the brain and become processed with the auditory area of the cortex and via the hippocampus, the auditory signals in the brain are interacted with the linguistic memory and the context appropriate memories, stored concepts, and the signal to that trigger the muscle movements for the appropriate response behaviors are sent.

it is a totally physical activity from start to finish.


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 Anonymous
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28/05/2010 10:01 pm  

http://www.sacredriver.org/631/comment-on-good-evil-and-self

The second part of his post deals with this issue.

Though, I think physicalism is necessary to Thelema, it is not what essentially defines Thelema.

What defines the essence of Thelema is that rather than applying pressures to the individual organism in order to compel them to obey the ideals and ends of the one who controls that pressure, The Thelemic system instead studies the behavior of the individual when given total liberty, especially as children. The Individual is taught to know it's own free course and to apply it's own internal restraint to achieve that one Goal, while the society as a whole acts to aid the individuals bf constructing interactive roles and complex systems of mutual support.

The leaders benefit from the health, wealth, and happiness generated from the efficient and free action of the individuals achieving without obstruction or coercion from achieving their own ends.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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28/05/2010 10:34 pm  

93!

"The Individual is taught to know it's own free course...."

So long as this is understood as,
the individual being shown ways, methods, disciplines, meditations, etc
that will "most hopefully" lead to that course being discovered by said individual, his or herself.....!

Then again, what happens when said individual fancies to have no thing to do, with being shown such a course of proper actions for them to take?
Only if they are willing then!

If the individual is incapable of making such a self discovery, and
others obviously see exactly what that individual is good at, or excels at,
the ultimate choice of whether or not the individual does it, must always be the choice of the individual.
If the individual fully realizes that they are best suited for a particular vocation as it were, and everyone else knows it too....
if the individual chooses not to engage his/herself in it,
they must never be forced to do it.
Not even if it's "best for them".
Helpful guidance is fine; perhaps even a tad of goading and prodding, But---there must be no type of coercion whatsoever.

93! 93! 93!


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 Anonymous
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28/05/2010 11:36 pm  

To a great extent (I would argue there is no other factor) the Individual volition is merely a deterministic response of the organism to the environment with which it is presented. Thus, though there is always a degree of uncertainly, we can know with some accuracy what sort of behaviors and responses to expect from what sort of organisms. The more information we have on the organisms personal experiences and past interactions the better we can determine this sort of information, in designing the physical and social environments which will get the best sort of out put behavior from the organism.

Thus we see in the A.'.A.'. the highly detailed journals that are shared with one's superiors, as these journals if well kept contains just the sort of information, about the organism in question that aids both the individual organism is self knowledge as well as informs the higher authority as to what sort of experiences to suggest and line up for the organism, that will develop it's future progress.

All very scientific and nothing non-physical or supernatural need ever be postulated


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 Anonymous
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29/05/2010 12:46 am  

Thank-you for sharing so extensively your subjective view of the Universe, name538. There is no proof that anything you've postulated is objectively true. Constant repetition doesn't make something true.

Nothing non-physical or supernatural needs to be postulated to account for discarnate intelligences. Crowley claims to have contacted them fairly regularly.


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sonofthestar
(@sonofthestar)
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Posts: 375
29/05/2010 12:48 am  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

So far as the A .: A .: is concerned, no one is forced
to do anything.
Their are various ordeals and tests "all members" of
"all grades" encounter.
Whether or not those ordeals are met successfully,
is determined by the overall "individual"---mental, and spiritual
state of each unique and particular member, as they grow within The Order.
Lessons have to be learned, sometimes painfully; sometimes not.
Any one who dares to say, or has said---
that " it is not only the few" having the muster to "take it all the way to the top"
has no idea what they are talking about.

The chosen few who are so vehemently dedicated to such a path,
will not stop---even if they know that going into, or completing a particular ordeal will jeopardize their very lives.
Those not so chosen to continue the path,
abandon The Order in one way or another,
usually at the most critical moment of the testing:
a testing by ordeal that they, their own very selves, are orchestrating through Supernal guidance.

The notion that "individual volition" is to be negated or is false,
due to some "ideology"---concerns me,
when it is applied to any possible proposed working model of
a world where Thelemic governments/nations would exist.
As does any possible ideology that tends to consider humans to be
no thing other than parts of some larger "organism"---such as
"The State".
One has to be very clear to describe exactly what is meant by
using these terms and analogies.

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
29/05/2010 1:13 am  

What I mean is than there are no active agents that exist at all.
The particular self that seems to be autonomously drives, is actually the product of mechanical forces determined at set in motion from the dawn of time. That the way in which particulars manifest behaviors is directly a result of the environment in which that particular exists.

If you put ice in a hot pan it melts, in a cold box it does not melt, The ICE can not decide to melt or freeze, Even if the ice some how believe that its, melting or freezing is it's own choice.

Thoughts, emotions, body movement, etc are all behaviors, all behaviors are the result of some environmental stimulation. This if you discern the nature of the individual organism as it is concerned to what type of behavior responses are commonly observed to result from which types of stimulus situations.
Then we can cater the environment to some extent to match the properties of the individual, such that the stimulus in that environment produces the behaviors that are beneficial to the community, while also not producing stress on the individual organism, which is often the case when the environment demands a response to a stimulus that is not proper to that individual for whatever reason. The individual is rewarded or punished based on not responding way some one wants him to respond, his natural instinctual or habitual response is punished and some alien response is rewarded.

This is how we train the behavior to match the ideal of what the trainer wants. Where as in a Thelemic situation we do not reward and punish artificially based on compliance of the subject to our whims. Rather we observe the subjects habitual or natural response to various situations, and work to find or provide a Niche where those responses are rewarded naturally as a product of the behavior.

The trained animal, might do tricks and such and becomes reliant on making a fool of itself to get treats, until it forgets how to forage for it's own food.

The Thelemite animal, is not reliant for life an a master, does not do tricks and bend it's nature to fit the whims of a trainer. Rather the Thelemic society is a system that once constructed and each member is placed properly, they work together neatly, each element and organism finds it's niche and fulfills itself without having to contort itself unnaturally to the whims of others. Over time the system and it's organizers will work the bugs out and few corrections well be necessary to keep everything running smooth, Maybe a tweak here and there.


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 Anonymous
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29/05/2010 3:11 am  
"name538" wrote:
What I mean is than there are no active agents that exist at all.

You could look into the science of Alchemy for active agents.

"name538" wrote:
Thoughts, emotions, body movement, etc are all behaviors, all behaviors are the result of some environmental stimulation.

This theory was experimentally proven wrong by Dr. John Lily back in the 1950's. He made this experiment by building and then immersing himself in a sensory deprivation tank in order to cut out environmental stimulation. The only environment was his inner life, and it was quite active. Sensory deprivation tanks are now commonly known as floatation tanks. Anyone can repeat this experiment and find out for themself.


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 Anonymous
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29/05/2010 3:21 am  

Sensory deprivation has strong effects on behavior and can result in death.
The brain noise tries to fill in missing sense data, infant with an undeveloped brain and no memories put under such conditions would die very soon. An infant that is not touched and attended to by a human mother will die from lack of sensory stimulation. Adults will get stressed, then start seeing visions and having all kinds of hallucinations, eventually adults can lose the feed back with the body and the regulation of heart rate and such becomes erratic and can lead to death.

Further while in a tank, one is not behaving in any way, just floating. The aversion response behavior to a lack of sensory input, happens early on also.

none of which has anything to do with behavior conditioning.


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Los
 Los
(@los)
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29/05/2010 6:15 am  
"Azidonis" wrote:
I disagree in that I am of the opinion that the brain creates the mind. All of the chemical, and sensory things going on in the brain itself have an effect. The effect of that interplay is the mind. Therefore, while the brain is physical, the mind is not. The word "mind" is a label of the result of the processes carried out in the brain, not the processes themselves, nor the brain itself. The mind is a product of the brain functions.

Yes, this is correct. Technically speaking, consciousness is an "emergent property" of matter -- that is, when you put matter together in the correct combinations, things like consciousness emerge from it.

"Mind" is a word for the stuff that brains do, basically.


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Azidonis
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29/05/2010 10:20 am  
"Los" wrote:
"Azidonis" wrote:
I disagree in that I am of the opinion that the brain creates the mind. All of the chemical, and sensory things going on in the brain itself have an effect. The effect of that interplay is the mind. Therefore, while the brain is physical, the mind is not. The word "mind" is a label of the result of the processes carried out in the brain, not the processes themselves, nor the brain itself. The mind is a product of the brain functions.

Yes, this is correct. Technically speaking, consciousness is an "emergent property" of matter -- that is, when you put matter together in the correct combinations, things like consciousness emerge from it.

"Mind" is a word for the stuff that brains do, basically.

93,

Thank you, Los.

93 93/93


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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29/05/2010 6:53 pm  
"Noctifer" wrote:
For myself, the essential quality of Thelema could perhaps best be described, if not necessarily defined, as a dynamic, or immanentising (rather than transcendent) version of the Tao.

That comes extremely close to my own thoughts on the matter, Noctifer. As for dynamic, I'd say the emphasis is on going rather than being.

Crowley seemed very preoccupied with Taoism in what I've come to regard as the peak of his powers, during his time in America. Liber Aleph has always seemed to me to be saturated with this insight, and I think it's a vital substratum of the Amalantra Working, carried over into his retreat on Aesopus Island where he completed his reworking of Legge's translation of the Tao Teh Ching.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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29/05/2010 10:54 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
For myself, the essential quality of Thelema could perhaps best be described, if not necessarily defined, as a dynamic, or immanentising (rather than transcendent) version of the Tao.

That comes extremely close to my own thoughts on the matter, Noctifer. As for dynamic, I'd say the emphasis is on going rather than being.

Crowley seemed very preoccupied with Taoism in what I've come to regard as the peak of his powers, during his time in America. Liber Aleph has always seemed to me to be saturated with this insight, and I think it's a vital substratum of the Amalantra Working, carried over into his retreat on Aesopus Island where he completed his reworking of Legge's translation of the Tao Teh Ching.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Michael, I agree that true Will (Thelema) is dynamic rather than static, but I would think that this was obvious because everything is dynamic and nothing is static, ourselves included, of course. But when people emphasize this repeatedly I fail to see the point. Perhaps it is not the true Will of everyone to appreciate all the subtle nuances of existence at this time, but that seems natural and to be expected to me. I would surprised if it were.

Concerning Daoism, I agree that there are elements similar to Daoism within the synthesis that is Thelema, but I wonder if you see any differences between the two?


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phthah
(@phthah)
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29/05/2010 11:31 pm  

93,

"Noctifer" wrote:
For myself, the essential quality of Thelema could perhaps best be described, if not necessarily defined, as a dynamic, or immanentising (rather than transcendent) version of the Tao.

Interesting idea. Another way to say this might be that elastic adaption to enviroment combined with tireless maintenance of one's True will is an essential quality of Thelema!

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
As for dynamic, I'd say the emphasis is on going rather than being...

I would also agree that this is an "essential quality of Thelema" and that is why it is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" with emphasis on "shall be". It is a dynamic Theurgic proposition. Personally, I have always liked Motta's idea of Thelema as "a mode of Theurgy" and this is what I would consider to be the "essential quality" of Thelema. Now, what do I mean by a "mode of Theurgy"? It would be a method of purification and exaltation of the lower nature by the proper application of scientific principles, so that it may become united with its higher counterparts, whereby the individual may attain to Spiritual, and ultimately Divine, Consciousness.

93 93/93
phthah


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 Anonymous
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29/05/2010 11:50 pm  

While I certainly agree that "attaining divine consciousness" is a way of expressing the goal of those few who do the work of the A.'.A.'. and those very much fewer who actually advance to the higher grades. (Those few that shall rule the many and known)

Thelema is not attainment, nor is it merely a means to these attainments. The attainments are the same, the method by which they are attained has been updated by Thelema.

The method of Thelema is applicable to people who do not even know what these attainments are nor have any interest in those attainments. The method of Thelema, works to ensure that each type of person achieves their own highest potential, if that is spiritual attainment, to win a gold medal in track, to run the most efficient bank, to achieve the greatest orgasm or drug high, it could even be a goal to be the greatest serial rapist in history. If you happen to be a retarded person your Will may be to tie your shoes an your own.

Thelema is not necessarily about spiritual attainment at all and it could be used to achieve very anti-social things. Nuclear Chemistry can help us to treat cancer and it also can be used to destroy whole cities. Thelema is basically the application of empirical science, logic, critical thinking, and In some cases the awakened higher faculty (Factor X, Samadhi, etc) to direct one's life.

The key factor is that, one discovers for oneself, rather than is told by tradition, morality, culture, religion, authority, what ones personal goals might be and how best to achieve them.

Thelema applied to society is a method by which those who WILL a better society work to use science to establish a system by which each individual can manifest their personally chosen goals, with the maximum potential and the least hindrance caused by friction between the Activity of the people.

Their are methods built into the O.T.O governing structure and the necessary lessons of the initiations that are proposed by Crowley to assure the benevolence of the leadership. To ensure they do not became tyrants, but rather work as the facilitators to the Will of each member. (But they can only do that if they have authority and power to exercise that authority, which means a hierarchy not an egalitarian democracy. Rather something like a Feudal system with built in checks and balances)


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 Anonymous
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30/05/2010 12:54 am  
"name538" wrote:
Their are methods built into the O.T.O governing structure and the necessary lessons of the initiations that are proposed by Crowley to assure the benevolence of the leadership. To ensure they do not became tyrants, but rather work as the facilitators to the Will of each member. (But they can only do that if they have authority and power to exercise that authority, which means a hierarchy not an egalitarian democracy. Rather something like a Feudal system with built in checks and balances)

Are you a member of the OTO, name538?


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 Anonymous
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30/05/2010 1:14 am  

Ah! What an impertinent question. Might I perhaps plead the 5th as a matter of speaking and just say this. Membership in the O.T.O. is kept private.

Irregardless of this. I can dig up the documents that are in public domain to show, some of the structural safeguards that Crowley built into the O.T.O. or at least what ideally I wanted built in. Some part of which appears derived from Plato's republic. Also he spoke directly than those initiations beyond the 4th degree were attained by proving your dedication and service to the order. Thus Advancement does not grand greater liberties but rather allows for greater service. This means that their is no selfish egotistical reason to lie and back stab to the top, since there political power carries responsibility and service, it does not give you any special wealth or privileges, In fact Crowley insisted that initiates donate a larger percent of their property and time to the order at each initiation.


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 Anonymous
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30/05/2010 1:28 am  

Err, what Crowley wanted built in.
The same kind of safeguards that I want to build, when I get to work organizing a local farming co-op.


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 Anonymous
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30/05/2010 2:28 am  

Compare these two quotes.
one from Crowley

"There must be an optimum relation between industry and agriculture, between town and country. When the proper balance is not struck, the community must depend on outside help, importing what it lacks, exporting its surplus. This is an unnatural state of affairs; it results in business, and therefore ultimately in war. Whenever the proportion of townsfolk to countryfolk grows too large, the nation is smashed. We can only postpone the crash by our "scientific" schemes of organization. So nobody must be allowed to think at all. Down with the public schools! Children must be drilled mentally by quarter-educated herdsmen, whose wages would stop at the first sign of disagreement with the bosses. For the rest, deafen the whole world with senseless clamour. Mechanize everything! Give nobody a chance to think. Standardize "amusement." The louder and more cacophonous, the better! Brief intervals between one din and the next can be filled with appeals, repeated 'till hypnotic power gives them the force of orders, to buy this or that product of the "business men" who are the real power in the State. Industrialism, the mother and nurse of socialism, [is] destroying the soul of the people."

And this one from Evola.

"Against all forms of resentment and social competition, every person should acknowledge and love his station in life, which best corresponds to his own nature, thus acknowledging the limits within which he can develop his potential; and should give an organic sense to his life and achieve its perfection, since an artisan who perfectly fulfills his... See More function is certainly superior to a king who does not live up to his dignity. Only when such considerations have weight will this or that reform carried out on the socioeconomic plane be conceived and implemented without any negative consequence, according to true justice, without mistaking the essential for the accessory. Unless an ideological detoxification and a rectification of attitudes are carried out, every reform will be only superficial and fail to tackle the deeper roots of the crisis of contemporary society, to the advantage of subversive forces." (Julius Evola, Men Among Ruins)

They both show that a Major change needs to be implemented in the structure and order of society or or else we face grave dangers and disaster. Not the least of which is the degradation of the human spirit nor massive warfare and economic collapse.

Both indicate that the nature of this change, is than people return to their natural stations in life, and do what they are actually constructed to do by heredity, environment, experience and learned skill, not what they might be temped to want to do.

This use of science to discover your WILL, rather than to go off what you feel, or believe should be what your WILL might be, or deciding that you (or anyone else) gets to arbitrarily choose what you desire your WILL to be, is the Essence of Thelema.


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 Anonymous
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30/05/2010 2:42 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"Noctifer" wrote:
For myself, the essential quality of Thelema could perhaps best be described, if not necessarily defined, as a dynamic, or immanentising (rather than transcendent) version of the Tao.

That comes extremely close to my own thoughts on the matter, Noctifer. As for dynamic, I'd say the emphasis is on going rather than being.

Crowley seemed very preoccupied with Taoism in what I've come to regard as the peak of his powers, during his time in America. Liber Aleph has always seemed to me to be saturated with this insight, and I think it's a vital substratum of the Amalantra Working, carried over into his retreat on Aesopus Island where he completed his reworking of Legge's translation of the Tao Teh Ching.

Thanks Michael. I agree with the "going rather than being" idea, and that to me is the vital complement between Thelema and the way of the Tao, in both an inner and outer sense.

As well as those important things you mention, Crowley's intensive and long focus on the I Ching, and his intimation that within it may have lain the secrets of English Qabala, whose importance to Thelemic mysticism and magick may have been implied in Al 2:55, are also germane to the notion, to me.

regards
N.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
30/05/2010 9:34 am  
"Camlion" wrote:
Michael, I agree that true Will (Thelema) is dynamic rather than static, but I would think that this was obvious because everything is dynamic and nothing is static, ourselves included, of course.

It's a matter of perspective. It's now common to regard matter as energy locked into patterns, and hence dynamic rather than static, but such a view may not be universal and is probably comparatively recent. There are still spiritual traditions which I believe emphasise being.

"Camlion" wrote:
Concerning Daoism, I agree that there are elements similar to Daoism within the synthesis that is Thelema, but I wonder if you see any differences between the two?

I referred to going rather than being because Taoism seems more passive than active; however, that may be the view of someone outside the tradition, reflecting the fact that I am insufficiently versed in Taoism to do more than offer analogies that are probably somewhat glib.

A little off-topic, I know, but Taoism was a great influence on Spare and his conception of the Zos and the Kia may likewise be viewed as a more dynamic Taoism.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
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Posts: 4021
30/05/2010 9:46 am  
"phthah" wrote:
Another way to say this might be that elastic adaption to enviroment combined with tireless maintenance of one's True will is an essential quality of Thelema!

Yes. This brings to mind a remark by Grant in Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God, that Thelema can be defined as “elasticity conceived as a lightning-swift adaptation to each and every phenomenon”.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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 Anonymous
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30/05/2010 8:39 pm  

"Let this formula be accepted by every government. Experts will immediately be appointed to work out, when need arises, the details of the True Will of every individual, and even that of every corporate body whether social or commercial, while a judiciary will arise to determine the equity in the case of apparently conflicting claims. (Such cases will become progressively more rare as adjustment is attained.) All appeal to precedent and authority, the deadwood of the Tree of Life, will be abolished, and strictly scientific standards will be the sole measure by which the executive power shall order the people. The absolute rule of the state shall be a function of the absolute liberty of each individual will." -AC: The Scientific Solution of the Problem of Government

IMO, Crowley, justifiably frustrated with the human condition, on the horns of the Thelemic political dilemma and failing to take that bull by the horns; passing the buck to some future generation when things might be as they never really will be in the foreseeable future. But, in reality, our future must be now because the problems are here now and are becoming very, very pressing, to which the present state of the world attests. If the solutions are to be found in the Law of Thelema, the applications must be very realistic, very practical and damn near immediate.

"name538" wrote:
I can dig up the documents that are in public domain to show, some of the structural safeguards that Crowley built into the O.T.O. or at least what ideally I wanted built in.
"name538" wrote:
Err, what Crowley wanted built in.

Yes, right, unless you are yet another second coming of Crowley? 🙂


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phthah
(@phthah)
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30/05/2010 9:03 pm  

93 name538, Thanks for your response to my post. I actually presented it as just another viewpoint of an essential quality of Thelema. I really didn't expect a lot of people to agree with it. However, just for kicks I thought I might point out a few things, which you will undoubtedly also disagree with! 😉

"name538" wrote:
While I certainly agree that "attaining divine consciousness" is a way of expressing the goal of those few who do the work of the A.'.A.'. and those very much fewer who actually advance to the higher grades. (Those few that shall rule the many and known)

Oh no, not at all. The Law is for All! I consider the discovery of True Will to be a form of "attaining divine consciousness".

"name538" wrote:
Thelema is not attainment, nor is it merely a means to these attainments...

Of course it is. When somebody "discovers" their True Will, what do you think that is? They have attained to the knowledge of their inmost nature. Let's try a different direction. When it says in The Book of the Law that, "The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs." and "Worship then the Khabs, and behold my light shed over you!" Do you think that this can relate to True Will in any way? Which gets me thinking, perhaps I would have been better off putting my description of Theurgy into Crowley's words, "We are not to regard ourselves as base beings, without whose sphere is Light or "God". Our minds and bodies are veils of the Light within. The uninitiate is a "Dark Star ", and the Great Work for him is to make his veils transparent by 'purifying' them. This 'purification' is really 'simplification'; it is not that the veil is dirty, but that the complexity of its folds makes it opaque. The Great Work therefore consists principally in the solution of complexes. Everything in itself is perfect, but when things are muddled, they become 'evil'. This Doctrine is evidently of supreme importance, from its position as the first 'revelation' of Aiwass."

"name538" wrote:
The method of Thelema is applicable to people who do not even know what these attainments are nor have any interest in those attainments. The method of Thelema, works to ensure that each type of person achieves their own highest potential, if that is spiritual attainment, to win a gold medal in track, to run the most efficient bank, to achieve the greatest orgasm or drug high...

The Law is for All, but to me, these would all be forms of "spirtual attainment. To me, there is nothing more "spiritual" than the act of doing my True Will. Perhaps (again!) this would sound better put in A.C.'s words. Take a look at what he says in his commentary to Liber AL iii 60, "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." "Far better, let him assume this Law to be the Universal Key to every problem of Life, and then apply it to one particular case after another. As he comes by degrees to understand it, he will be astounded at the simplification of the most obscure questions which it furnishes. Thus he will assimilate the Law, and make it the norm of his conscious being; this by itself will suffice to initiate him, to dissolve his complexes, to unveil himself to himself; and so shall he attain the Knowledge and Conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel."
To me, it doesn't get much clearer than this.

93 93/93
phthah


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phthah
(@phthah)
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30/05/2010 11:40 pm  

93,

"MichaelStaley" wrote:
Yes. This brings to mind a remark by Grant in Aleister Crowley and the Hidden God, that Thelema can be defined as “elasticity conceived as a lightning-swift adaptation to each and every phenomenon”.

Interesting! Actually, I kind of like that! It brings to mind not only the Dao, but the idea of "Point-Event", "The Seer and the Seen" and our method of "love under will". Thanks Michael.

93 93/93
phthah


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 Anonymous
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31/05/2010 2:29 am  

Yes, Taoism is also about dealing with reality on a base level, and just responding as events come about, not planning ahead or living up to any ideals.

Thelema allows for ideals and active pursuit of those ideas, but they are derived from direct personal experience and are a product of the individual WILL.

I have often thought of Thelema as a sort of Western Taoism, that while Eastern Taoism emphasized yin aspects, being yielding like water, emptying oneself, staying in low places, conformity and softness to absorb force, etc. Thelema emphasizes the Yang aspects. the active Force of Fire, pushing one's WILL upon the world, adapting one's action change the world to meet the WILL, being Driven and unyielding to others, without a fight. and the likes.

But It would seem that behind the emphasis both Taoism and Thelema seek a balance of both yin and yang. Only the idea of that balance is different in that Taoism sees the end result as static rest, where as Thelema has it as an inertial rolling along the Path of True Will.

Newton will have us understand that, an object continues in a straight line until acted upon by an external force. That is such an object is in a state of dynamic rest. Then from Einstein it can be understood that there is no such thing as a universal state of rest, or motionlessness. Thus, each objects moving in it's course, can be considered at rest, so long as it is not being acted upon by external forces, causing deviation from it's course.

Some objects may have internal gyros built in so than when pushed off course they have a tendency to return to that course, and thus resist external forces. If we consider the TRUE WILL as the course and the HGA as that sort of internal Gyro (The energy that powers it being the Light, (of the sun and of the inner drive, crystallized in the blood, all nutritious foods and symbolized in the cakes of light).

Thus to develop that inner gyro, to keep it on track and fueled with the light and life of spiritual communion of the elements, is the essence of Thelema. (This developed gyro is not done in isolation but in community within the integration of one's brother's and sisters in the order, Thus one's own WILL through acts of Love comes to include or to be the product of all the WILLs of those with whom one has interacted with in Love under WILL. The highest attainment Where the Hadit fully unites with Nuit, the WILL of all people and all things become understood as aspects of one's own WILL.

Those who reach these higher attainments, to whom their own WILL includes the WILL of the community they serve, have attained a state in which they can act as an authority to guide the activity of the community of those who have not attained those higher grades, or degrees of initiation.


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 Anonymous
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31/05/2010 7:19 pm  
"Camlion" wrote:
But, in reality, our future must be now because the problems are here now and are becoming very, very pressing, to which the present state of the world attests. If the solutions are to be found in the Law of Thelema, the applications must be very realistic, very practical and damn near immediate.

It's important to remember that AC, in The Book of Thoth predicted a 500 year period of "dark ages." So far, he appears right. It seems unrealistic and naive to think that the highest Thelemic ideals would get completely realized only 100 years after the reception of TBotL. I consider the Thelemic cultural movement very successful in the relatively brief time it's been around.


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