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What's up with the Apocalypse?


 Anonymous
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93
So the other day I was talking to a friend of mine about Crowley and Thelema, I referred to the prophet as the Beast, he asked me why I was calling him after the great beast of the apocalypse of Jhon. I tried to explain the whole deal with Babalon, the Abyss, etc., but he was specially intrigued in knowing why and how was the Apocalypse read according to Thelema.

This is as far as I dared, at that moment, to invent or guess: In the Bible we read that a Beast comes from the ocean, I don't remember if such an ocean it's boiling or not, I told him that the ocean represents the tide of thoughts and currents and ideals, and so on, and that from such a mess came a creature, not quite human, that was elevated from this mess (at the time there was communism, fascism, democracy, capitalism, and a lot of ideals and philosophies in the air).

Although this made my friend very happy with the answer, it left me with a lot of questions. From what I remember in the book of apocalypse, events follow as this:
- From the waters comes the Great Beast.
- He hunts a virgin pregnant with a baby, from his mouth comes a flood.
- The woman is given wings and escapes the beast.
- Christ comes and there's a war after which the dragon is placed back in hell, Jesus reigns supreme and everybody is happy (except for those that died in the whole armagedon thing).

How did Crowley interpret the apocalypse? Specially since it ends with christianity being supreme perfection and Jesus ruling the world. If he wrote something on this matter I'd like to know so I can find it over the internet, but please, this question puzzles me deeply, so any answer will be welcomed.

93 93/93


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kidneyhawk
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Crowley did remark that he considered St. John to be an Initiate who most definitely experienced a vision of the inner worlds. However, he also added that being a "lower level" Initiate, he was unable to properly interpret what he witnessed and therefore cast it in an erroneous context. I believe that reference is from MTP but I'm at work and my library is NOT!


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 Anonymous
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Asclepio

...its all allegorical, study the mysteries and look behind the words, as they intimate other things...

The Great Work!

Best Wishes

Charles


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lashtal
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Charles,

Nicely phrased, if I may say so.

Paul

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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kidneyhawk
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...and having posted the above, I don't necessarily agree with AC's take on the matter. Of COURSE, St. John (the AUTHOR!!!) would be unable to understand what was REALLY meant by things like Beast & Whore as it took Therion 😯 to proclaim those Mysteries...

There is more than one angle with which to approach the Apocalypse including angles outside of both AC's take (which I'm not saying is unilluninated, either) and that of mainline Christianity (which I WOULD venture to say is generally "unilluminated" with regards to the Apocalypse). David Tibet is one example of working in a very Thelemic context with the Apocalypse from the side of the Christos). Tibet cites Blake as a grand influence in his work and Blake's Jesus certainly comes to bear upon this mode of literature. Essentially, there are places and spaces where consciousness gets beyond dogmatic absolutes and understands the subjectivity of symbolic expression-and can furthermore shift gears and work with such symbolism in a creative and, hence, transformative way. The artist is not the only one who creates. The reader and viewer and listener also create as they interface.

As Charles said:

they intimate other things...

But those "other things" are for your Angel-Daemon to reveal directly to you in the Gnosis.

I sure don't mean to sound "preachy" in stating the above...there is GREAT excitement and power in the "interface" and the Apocalypse of St. John is a wonderful medium for this to occur in!

I think AC would agree-!

Godspeed!

😆

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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I was under the impression, and according to scholars of the Zohar, that St. Johns Apocalypse is 'purely qabalistic'....and he knew it, as he (St. John), the man of Patmos, was a qabalist...and more of a gnostic than a exoteric christian.... so he knew the gnostic gymnastic of what he was writing! It is 'we' who don't get it!...and we mope and rant around, talking like pathetic born again christians...with our vulgar interpretations of the apocalypse, and what it means...eg. that the world is going to end!

Please!...read inbetween the lines if you are a true gnostic or thelemite or whatever!

Its late
Im off to bed!

Bed Time
Charles


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 Anonymous
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"magispiegel" wrote:
Asclepio

...its all allegorical, study the mysteries and look behind the words, as they intimate other things...

I would stick with what Charles said here asclepio, as it is to the point and "enough said". If the New Testament (which has pretended to be a historical document but which is actually FILLED with symbolism and allegory from beginning to end) shouldn't be taken literally, then the Revelation is a no-brainer as far as it's intended use. The correct interpretation may not be easy to comb out, but it sure as hell ain't gonna be found in a Hal Lindsey book either!!!


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 Anonymous
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"The Canon" by William Stirling is interesting for subject matter treated that involves the work of St. John. It also had an influence on Crowley I suspect.

Something interesting from the work that struck me, among 'other' things:

"Since there is an allusion in the text to the Beast's name, it may be supposed that some mystery lies in the word. It was certainly the recieved opinion, that the Beast's mark was the cross, so the mystery may have had reference to the figure of the Microcosm crucified in a circle having a circumference of 360, the number of degrees in the earth's circuit."

"...this cross roughly combines in its measures the length of the solar and lunar years, and thus aquires a masculine and feminine significance. Consequently it expresses the twofold character of the symbol, exemplified by the fact that Stauros and Omphalos are equal to one another by Gematria."

"The cruciform man being double sexed and being composed of soul and body, his soul or masculine half was diffused through the Aether, that is, the Zodiac and seven planets, while it was his body, which was feminine or material, that properly belonged to the elements. Therefore, since the complete Being, male and female, represented the two lower divisions of the cosmos, the numbers with which he was identified connected his body with the ascertained measures of the sun and the planetary system as well as the moon and the elements. And this double nature had its counterpart in the two limbs of the cross."


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kidneyhawk
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KCh-

This is a very intriguing quote, esp. as it evokes the idea of the 360 circumference pertaining to both Solar & Lunar Cycles. I, perhaps, refer to Blake "overmuch" in my posts but I'm instantly brought to his "Marriage" where the Angels and Devils shift traditional roles in "moral" interpretation and he offers insight from the "Devil's" perspective, this Illuminate who predominately sided with "Jesus" in context of his own Mythology.

The complete Corpus of Blake performs an incredible fusion betwixt ALL Christian Symbolism to allow for a True "Marriage" whereby each and every symbol is both ALIVE and Evocative of a Mystery Whereby the "Divine Imagination" or Gnosis is able to express Itself. By Identifying Milton as of "The Devil's Party" and then identifying himself with Milton, Blake took on the guise of "Devil." And then casting out "Satan" as "Error" and embracing "Jesus," Blake resolved all dualism and expressed both Enlightenment and a Means to Accessing that Vision through even "Conventional" Means.

Your posting of the Stirling quote is wonderful in that it would seem to call forth the Beast as a syncretic symbol whereby the dualisms also fuse and unite, a type of the Baphomet described by Levi in Transcendental Maigc as both an Emblem of Depravity and Piety. In fact, if I've ever taken anything from Levi, it's been that-his "double" treatment of the Baphomet, which revealed a truly Gnostic Key to unlocking ANY symbolic representation of Divine Influx.

This quote is so wonderful-as it links both Beast and Cross, seemingly contradicted in DOGMA yet perfectly expressed in a type of hyper-symbolism which resolves all conflict and acts as a Springboard to the Beyond!

Applying this Formulae to the Apocalypse of St. John is Key, I would think, to unlocking mere Myth into an Experience transcending dualism and evoking a Vision of Reality which is both Transcendent and, most importantly, Organic!

It also makes me think of the Supreme Holiness of 666-the 3 is the Triad, expressed in double form as the 6 ("As Above, So Below"), replicated in the Three which links Heaven and Earth through the "In Between" which is MAN-interestingly, the Man as "King" in Chogyam Trungpa's writings, whose purpose is to bring these two together (Masonic Square and Compasses, harmonized by the "G").

Althought Fundementalists typically link all things "Devilish" into one lump cateogry of "Evil," it's worth noting that the "Beast" is not the "Devil." Rather we have a Biblical upsurge of the Baphometian Energy which UNIFIES within Itself via "double nature." Not unlike Horus as Ra Hoor Khuit and Hoor Pa Kraat-or the Andromeda-Sirius Link forged in LAM.

Nichiren Buddhism describes the Chinese Characters of the Gohonzon as simply caligraphed letters in sumi ink to the average person, a "void" to the Man of Learning, a Multiplex of Color (kalas) to the Bodhisatva and actual LIVING BUDDHAS to the Buddha Nature.

I see the Apocalypse of St. John unfolding in the same manner. Perhaps Crowley's "read" wasn't meant to "subvert" as much as it was to apply a counterbalance to an off-centered emphasis and, by "balancing" the Work, allow it to take Life in the Unique Gnosis of the Reader.

93

kyle


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 Anonymous
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Magispiegel: I am interested in how St. John, writing two millenia ago, could be initiated into Kabbala, which had its inception in the 1400s in Spain.

The Revelation has, to me, always been an in depth explanation of the effect of persecution on the mind of the Christian believer. It is, as such, an exercise in pattern recognition and paranoia brought about by long term oppression of visionary states under the Empire (meant both in the Roman and Phildickian sense, natch).

Thus, the existence of Good and Bad numbers within the text, arbitrarily attributed, has always meant to me a valiant attempt to reclaim some control over a universe that denied/denies the Christian point of view influence due to its innate passivity.

I think, to carry on kidneyhawk's point, the Hypersymbolism is interesting in terms of the historical reasons for its existence rather than its influence upon my own mental state. The Law itself is not affected by the reaction to the Law's oppression, and as such I feel Revalation's status is properly called an Appendix (not as a climax or catastrophe, which often seems to be its interpretation in today's world, where interpretation of Scripture is unpopular and unglamorous as a pasttime).

That is just my schtick though, Ignore All My Wordings.

Rob


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 Anonymous
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"Informutation" wrote:
I am interested in how St. John, writing two millenia ago, could be initiated into Kabbala, which had its inception in the 1400s in Spain.

So am I to understand that now we will be attempting to (of course in an extremely academic way I'm sure) debunk Qabalah? It couldn't have existed prior to that seeing as it's a highly mystical/esoteric system, and everyone knows that any system like it is always broadcast to the general public almost immediately?

On another note, while we are on the subject of the Apocalypse, does anyone have a suggestion for a good book/essay on the symbolism in the Revelation? Preferrably from a known/respected occultist/Qabalist? I'd like to think I could rely on this thread, but I just can't keep up (or don't want to) with the magickal mystical mish mash. Any suggestions would be helpful.


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 Anonymous
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Several of the books of the Bible appear to have been written by Qabalists, particularly Exodus ( and revelation, of course). All of them make much more sense interpreted allegorically rather than literally in my opinion.

I think Qabalah has been around a lot longer than the 1400's


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 Anonymous
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Ya think? 😉


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daopig
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Enjoying this thread, it makes me look again at some assumptions I have made about the word 'beast'. I just thought that if somebody wanted to start a widespread and powerful new meme. The best way to lodge it would be to invent a scary and awful icon to represent all dissenting voices. I thought Crowley identified with the beast because of the Irishman in him. Because he liked to chuck bombs and would never agree to share in a concensous happy-making dream. Though from his Tunis diary, I think it was, there were candid moments of weakness where sometimes wished he could just Believe and be spared the latest bout of existential agony. But he chastises himself immediately.
Another beast, in this limited definition as somebody who dares to take on the mantle of disbelief. And who is ready, therefore to be viewed with contempt by the pious, as merely animal, would be David Hume who gave birth to a different kind of piousness from the auld reeky churchy stuff. One of academic mastery and edification. A kind of snobbery that out snobbed the English by miles. And set a new standard in snobbery. But the granite Georgian architecture was something! Oops where have I ended up. Sorry.


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 Anonymous
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In thinking about the term The Great Beast >

'The Beast' once used as a put down by his own Mother, its key to the book of Revelations, fire and brimstone and all that jazz.. He would have liked the association. In same way that teenage dablers in black magik like their Iron Maiden records. Aligning yourself to your fantasies and subverting them is what all great artists do.


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kidneyhawk
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I found that the Black Magic Kids were much more drawn to the Death Metal Ilk than Maiden-either they were two melodic or too literary (unless we're talking Black Magic Kids from Grammer School, in which case Vintage "Number of the Beast" stuff fits the bill quite nicely...).

Rob made mention of the persecution context for the Apocalypse. I don't have any verification for this at hand presently but I do recall many years ago hearing a commentary on Christian Radio (!) which gave some historic background on the text. Apparently, St. John, prior to the Patmos Exile, was a "Near Martyrer." For standing up against the "Empire," he was thrown into a vat of boiling oil ("How many ways can you kill a Christian?" sounds like a Chapter from the Field Guide to Roman Fun) and he SURVIVED. Horribly disfigured, he wrote most of the Apocalypse while hiding in a cave on Patmos. This might give some emotional background on the "Conqueror" aspect of the White Horse Rider...but Scott is right, Qabala, at least traced in terms of history, needs to be considered more in terms of its Living Current, that which happened to EMERGE in the 1400s with a particular EXPRESSION of Itself. The Sumerians were evoking much of Cosmic Depth ere the Greeks arrived to play their part in the Great Alexandrian Melting Pot. The Current (even as the word becomes as overplayed as the Number "93" in our parlance) can be viewed as a flowchart through human consciousness. Certainly not a neat and tidy one page illustration to a book-be that of Grant or Pete Carroll-but such chartings are worthy of being a jump off (or jump IN) point to tracing the patterns backwards in time, for if done MYSTICALLY, we find outselves tracing them FORWARDS as well-and then to simply touch Mr. Grant's poetic TITLE of the Book, we find our winding web moving "Outside the Circles of Time" and into our own experience-which is what all the Tradition of Gnosis is meant to spur and celebrate (Eucharistos).

Scott, I don't think studying a decent Theological Work on Revelation is an improper approach. But you're quite correct in warding the unwary away from Mr. Lindsey. Planet Earth continues to extol the Great over the Late and deserves much better than ANYTHING that would bind up St. John's Opus of "Sentient Symbolism" WITHIN the Temporal. Although such a route may be a nice little money-maker to shake for the well-pewed.

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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I mention Iron maiden purely becouse of their song "The number of the beast".


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 Anonymous
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The Qabbalah is a lot older than the thirteenth century. The first versions were written down by Rabbis around the yeqr 350 AD.
Even the Tree of Life is borrowed from Babylonian sources.
After the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem by the Romans under Vespasian the Jew formalized their religion into two books ,the Torah and the Talmud.. The problem was that this new form of Judaism left no room for new Prophets or messages from God. As a result various Rabbis looked for new meaning in a changing world by searching for hidden meanings in the Old Testament. The result the kabbalah and qabbalah the oral and written traditions have undergone a great deal of change over the last two thousand years.
A standard reference work such as the Encyclopedia Britannica lists fifteen major changes in the Qabbalah since its beginning. There is no ancient QBL its a continually changing way of looking at the world.
If you want a proper understanding of the Book of Revalations try Hugh Schofields The Original New Testament. As a scholar of the Bible, a Jewish writer who is an authority on ancient texts and knowledgeable about the qabbalah he explains the meanings of the symbols very simply and in an easily understandable way. I would definetly recommend this book as it will save you years of study.
Best Wishes Robert.


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 Anonymous
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Even the Tree of Life is borrowed from Babylonian sources.

Years ago, I spoke with a friend who was delving deeply into Theosophy. If I remember right he alluded to a source in Blavatsky which identified Babylonian cylinders used for divination or prayer as the precursor to the development of the qabalistic approach to tarot.
Whether this is fact or fantasy, I cant say. However if tarot is considered to line up with the system of qabalah, a very interesting book in context of this thread would be P.D Ouspensky's "Symbolism of the Tarot" which approaches the 22 greater arcana not simply as a numeric connection to the 22 chapters of Revelations but as a type of "Book Of Revelations" unto itself with each card forming an "apocalyptic chapter". It's a short and easy read but I found that it contains a lot of depth.

93 93/93
Kym


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 Anonymous
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What an absolutely fantastic thread.

Thanks everyone for sharing their knowledge. I am interested in the idea of a 'Current' because in a certain sense it seems to be a sort of We/They paradox. It seems far more likely that ALL knowledge is a single flow of data, meaning that the point is dismissable in its ubiquity. Therefore, whilst we CAN all claim to be Gnostics or Dionysian Architects and so forth, the real question is when those terms started to be relevant (i.e. used) and when they ceased to be relevant (i.e. used primarily in an academically studied rather than practicing sense).

Any other way of looking at these matters, for me, leads to a certain amount of self-aggrandizement which is dangerous. I can spend hours getting off on experiencing a New Revelation but, really, that term is now defunct. The deinal of categories leads ultimately to an great 'all-is-in-all' fallacy that negates the essential uniqueness of each successive era. 'Quantum' rather than 'Gnostic', or even (whisper it) Scepticism Towards Metanarrative is really the stuff of Now, to me.

I will definitely be checking out some of the books recommended.

Rob


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 Anonymous
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"Informutation" wrote:
I am interested in how St. John, writing two millenia ago, could be initiated into Kabbala, which had its inception in the 1400s in Spain.
Rob

The elements of, and the gnostic construction of the qabalah my good friend runs synonymously with the structure of the TAO... 😯 The Qabalah is a metaphysical lever, a magickal engine if you wish!, which enables the aspirant to become quickened or initiated into a gnostic experience. It does this by its 'science' of 'illumination'.

I would ignore historical data collecting on 'where' or 'when' such systems of initiation into gnosticism arose from i.e. qabalah...really, it is just a peripheral and trivial, if not empty pursuit, according to the aspirant who is truly walking the occult path.

For example...the 'majority' believe that Acupuncture developed in China?!....but, evidence has been shown that an autopsy carried out on a primal man frozen in the alps between Italy and Austria, had indicated that some form of acupuncture or insitu technique of moxabustion techniques/tatooing were found running along the bladder meridian on his body, possibly to treat back pain no doubt....around 10000 years ago!!!!...so, where does this leave one to trace the origins of acupuncture? So, the question to how far back the qabalah goes will lead one onto a spurious and inaccurate journey. Are we to think, that the only people who knew about the subtle occult anatomy of the human experience, and were able to manipulate its movements via the use of their philosophy, and which was then applied to a medical praxis such as Acupuncture, were the Chinese? No, I don't think so...the same with the Qabalah.

If you dont have it already...I would definately recommend for you to read 'Tao Te Ching' by Ko Hsuan (Aleister Crowley)...a lovely book!

Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
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Dear Charles,

Wonderful post. And my personal take on such matters resonates very much with what you've expressed. Voltaire once said "history is a pack of tricks played by the dead upon the living". It would seem that no knowledge of "facts" can be absolute. The only "absolute" is the experience in which we encounter said information. Therefore a myth or legend (such as that of tarot cards orginating in Egypt) maybe of great value to working with "real" magickal forces. On the other hand "concrete" information may just end up as a pile of worthless data filling up the head if ones experience doesn't raise it to a level beyond making more solid our neuro semantic reality tunnel. (Love me some RAW) 🙂

There is a place where knowledge and belief are inseperable...unless of course that "knowledge" is a gnosis of the GOING...

Agape and 93's,
Kym


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kidneyhawk
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LOL-! And where would you be GO-ing with this-? And where did you find MY Ouspensky book??? Hmmm...maybe there's a REASON I've not been able to find it-!

It's a conspiracy! Andnow I'm developing my own inner-domestic persecution complex-gearing up for my own Revelation (hopefully sans vat of boiling oil! I'll stay out of the kitchen when I get home-!)

My own contribution to the whole Information/Knowledge P.O.V. is a reference to Kierkegaard whose "Training in Chrisitianity" (not irrelevant to the Good Book) takes a very unique and mystical stance with regards to encountering the Christ. In essence, what Soren says is that the movement in vogue amongst the Danish Clergy of his day was a very "rational" Chrisitianity (something which he (as "Father" of "Modern Existentialism" was loathe to accept) and that the closer one got to unearthing by documentation a trail leading ever closer to a historical validation of the Christ, the further one gets from an experience of the Living Christ.

If we read Christ as Christos and Christos as the Inner Light-Angel/Daemon-or Inward Link to the hyper-spatial Gnosis or Buddhanature, Kierkegaard as a philosopher is pointing towards the Key to realizing the Goal of Mysticism: Transcendental Experience-the Fountainhead from which creative expression can pour forth, canonized by the linearly limited or embraced as a "Sentient Symbol" by the Illuminated.

My Kierkegaard better ALL be on the shelf! 😉

LOL!

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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LOL-! And where would you be GO-ing with this-? And where did you find MY Ouspensky book??? Hmmm...maybe there's a REASON I've not been able to find it-!

The bookshelf, the place inwhere we keep the books. And you couldn't find it because you wern't looking for it so dont even start with me Kidneyhawk. 😉

Where am I GO-ing with this. Interesting. A little challenge, hummm? Alright. I'll help you out you out Kyle. Heres where I was GO-ing with my previous post before you got all "Danish Existentialism" on us. ( I thought we were talking about the APOCALYPSE??)

Although I'm far from a biblical scholar I do like certain images from Revelations and I dont feel that a thelemite is necessarily "obliged" to read it in light of Crowleys interpretation despite the relevance of it to our magick. By nature I take a more intutive approach to reading such things and let them "speak to me" as they will, although I do find all the information coming up on this thread very facinating.

Does anyone know anything about those Babylonian cylinders I mentioned, either from a historical (or a fake historical) perspective? If you knew Kyle i'm sure you would have answered.

So you see Kidneyhawk, I think we have the same angle here. I just dont need to use as many words as you do! 🙂 LOL.

Agape!
Kym


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Frater_HPK
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Very nice discusion. My current opinion is that Apocalypse is a very symbolic description of certain inner process we usually call Kundalini Yoga.

Love is the law, love under will

B.


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 Anonymous
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This business about the Tarot and the Tree being some how joined is a modern invention. The Jews did use cards in divination, only animals. It all started with Mathers et al and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. The original qabbalah had no paths on the tree . They first appear in a book published in Spain around 1500. The idea of attributing any colour, animal or anything else is pure G*D*.
Originally the word sephiroth meant sapphire, as the ten translucent gems were set alight in the moment of creation Gods will flashed through the sephiroth in the form of a thunder flash causing each sephira to glow like a sapphire. Of course no one of Jewish descent would think of addi ng any off the ideas in books like 777 to the qabbalah because the most basic tenet of beleief is Adonai Aleph-there is only ONE God and attributing anything but perfection to him is pure blasphemy from their point of view. If you e mail a Rabbi for lessons in the qabbalah some of them will only spell God as G-d because to put in the whole word is making a graven image. Most Jewish mystics are of the opinion that spelling G-d in full even in cyberspace is blasphemy. Its a long leap from this way of looking at QBL to the approach used by Crowley.
Best Wishes Robert.


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kidneyhawk
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My current opinion is that Apocalypse is a very symbolic description of certain inner process we usually call Kundalini Yoga

Whereas I wouldn't want to limit the infinite directions this topic can go in, I also see a tremendous connection between these two, as well...the dead awaken and meet the Lord in the air, the Christ returns to establish his rule on earth etc. The Firesnake ascends and descends...I'm suddenly thinking that the Apocalypse o St. John may be VERY interestingly examined as a symbolic guidebook to the Practice of Kundalini. No clear cut interpretive angle-but it could very well be read meditatively and the resulting insights diaried in connection with the Practice creating a book unto itself! Multiple people would create multiple books but a cross-reference between a group comapring notes would yield up results of great interest and insight I'm sure-!


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 Anonymous
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"adonia444" wrote:
On the other hand "concrete" information may just end up as a pile of worthless data filling up the head if ones experience doesn't raise it to a level beyond making more solid our neuro semantic reality tunnel. (Love me some RAW) 🙂

I am uncomfortable with the placing of Concrete inside inverted commas, as it really seems to me the one substance on earth that is NOT open to interpretation.

Can I ask how the people supporting an ahistorical examination of their existence reconcile their love of the suject matter with their lack of interest in its specific origins? I don't understand how discovering a particular truth about who or what you are in the present cannot involve, handy-dandy, a corresponding journey into what you and those like you have been.

Men like Pico della Mirandola or Lull are great in a way that I think the present era finds it hard to comprehend, and to turn away from the facts and stories of their lives on this earth is, I fear, to enter into an airy sphere that is ultimately to result in the dispersal of the REAL essence of the profound.

Magispiegel's paradox is that, in order to prove to me that History is unimportant, he resorted to the story of an OLDER era, and the discovery of the prehistoric, implying a hierarchy of chroncles rather than transcending the historical paradigm in total. Just because your point is older doesn't make it timeless. My paradox is that, an escape into unempirical symbolism will result in all that has been built becoming lost upon the wind. In the concrete there is the true sap of imagination:

The aristocrats, the elect, the chosen,
the Best People - all the words that describe them are false, and
all attempts to organize them fail. Again and again Authority,
seeing their value, has tried to net them and to utilize them as the
Egyptian Priesthood or theChristian Church or the Chinese
Civil Service or the Group Movement, or some other worthy
stunt. But they slip through the net and are gone; when the door
is shut, they are no longer in the room; their temple, as one of
them remarked, is the holiness of the Heart's affections, and their
kingdom, though they never possess it, is the wide-open world.

EM Forster - What I Believe, in Three Cheers For Democracy


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 Anonymous
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Informutation..93,

This is perhaps one of the most thoughtful posts i've read with regards to the "problem" of how to reconcile the factual and the "fanstastic" as well as our experience of time. You are right that a cavalier disregard for everything in favor of some wholly subjective view of the present experience is as much of a mistake as "losing the moment," which is the only moment, in favor of trying to get to something in fact or history as a "truth."

I have no disagreement with you, really. In fact, your words tie in very well to my understanding of the Advaita philosophy in the works of Kenneth Grant. He writes of getting past dualisms and into such a place where everything is unifying. I see your post as indicating that even the pursuit of history in a "concrete" way-LOL-is as much a part of that Advaita as experiencing something subjective in the inner realms-because by definition everything is taking place in the "now," right? And how we GO in the now should be in context of our True Will-for one that will be psychic channeling and for someone else it may be a research paper.

If all experiences are in the "now," whether we see it that way or not, then every experience is "lawful" if in accord with Will. Not only lawful, I'd say, but essential and important to how we continue to grow as unique stars.

Can i ask how the people supporting an ahistorical examination of their existence how they reconcile their love of the suject matter with their lack of interest in its specific origins?

I hope you can see a little of how my reply relates to answering your question. I spend quite a bit of time reading and doing web-research and really am fascinated when new things turn up which throw a light onto those topics which interest me. For myself, it is not only relevent but becomes part of that ongoing evolution of what I am.

So I hope my quoting of Voltaire earlier didn't imply any lack of interest for thats NOT where I was going with that. History may be a pack of tricks but its a game which is worth playing. At least for me. I just think that sometimes very bright people who have become emerged in what's historically proven miss the understanding of how such proven things have often come into existence from someone's gnosis in the now. I also think that same source of experience is present with us all, always. Just waiting to be revealed. 🙂

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Kym


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Proteus
(@proteus)
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

For what it's worth...

Regarding the Apocalypse, qabalah, and tarot, Levi wrote:
"There in fact we find sceptres, chalices, swords and crowns, disposed by determined numbers and corresponding to each other by means of the denary and sacred septenary. We find also the four kings of the four quarters of the world and the four horsemen which figure in our ordinary cards; we find the winged woman and also the Logos in kingly garments, afterwards in pontifical vestments with several diadems on His tiara. Finally, the Apocalyptic key, which is the vision of Heaven, is identical with No. 21 of the Tarot, exhibiting a throne surrounded by a double rainbow and at the four corners of this crown thye four sacramental animals of the Akabalh. These coincidences are very curious at least and give much food for thought."

Which caused Waite to write:
"...Levi pretends that the Apocalypse appears to have been devised according to the numbers, symbols and hieroglyphical figures of the Tarot."
"The alleged analogies are utterly fantastic throughout, or more correctly do not exist. There is no need to waste space, but sceptres do not appear in the Apocalypse, and the twenty-first chapter of that text has not one symbol corresponding to the Tarot which is called THE WORLD, and is here misdescribed utterly."

John

Love is the law, love under will.


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Proteus
(@proteus)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 243
 

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

For what it's worth...

Regarding the Apocalypse, qabalah, and tarot, Levi wrote:
"There in fact we find sceptres, chalices, swords and crowns, disposed by determined numbers and corresponding to each other by means of the denary and sacred septenary. We find also the four kings of the four quarters of the world and the four horsemen which figure in our ordinary cards; we find the winged woman and also the Logos in kingly garments, afterwards in pontifical vestments with several diadems on His tiara. Finally, the Apocalyptic key, which is the vision of Heaven, is identical with No. 21 of the Tarot, exhibiting a throne surrounded by a double rainbow and at the four corners of this crown the four sacramental animals of the Kabalah. These coincidences are very curious at least and give much food for thought."

Which caused Waite to write:
"...Levi pretends that the Apocalypse appears to have been devised according to the numbers, symbols and hieroglyphical figures of the Tarot."
"The alleged analogies are utterly fantastic throughout, or more correctly do not exist. There is no need to waste space, but sceptres do not appear in the Apocalypse, and the twenty-first chapter of that text has not one symbol corresponding to the Tarot which is called THE WORLD, and is here misdescribed utterly."

John

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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LOL. Well heres a perfect example of what I was getting at when I made reference to Ouspensky's symbolism of the tarot. He takes the reader on a wonderful imaginary journey in which much wisdom is revealed by means of his intiutive (and subjective, haha) read of the cards. He rather creates his own apocalypse by doing so. Waite is a perfect example of dismissing what he doesn't like based on an appeal to known facts which despite his massive amount of scholarly knowledge remains very "surface level" when the creative insight of someone like Levi which makes a book such as Revelations into a book filled with power in a direct way by his creative work with it.

And I would say even in the context of the historical knowledge we have at our disposal regarding Revelations, St John himself was preforming a creative work with the symbols and ideas at his own disposal.

Thanks for posting John! 🙂

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Kym


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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93
I partially understand the importance of discovering for oneself, I understand I don't posses the keys of the qabalah or anything like that, nor do I have extensive knowledge on gnostic interpretations, on the other hand I'm starting to grasp a few details here and there from all the responses, although must of the times I've got no idea what you're talking about 😳

Some ideas I've come up with, with the asistance of Eliphas Leví (I'm reading it in spanish, so translations may differ from english versions). There are several images or "scenes" that are rather clear, for instance, the star that falls from the skies into the ocean of blood.

The stars had already fallen down, like a tree shaking old and useless ideals, the ancient religions and dogmas, the waters turn to blood, with a dual symbolism (I'm guessing all simbolism is dual) of life and death, the oceans of ideas or opinions, the currents turn red, they're both dying and living intensively (is there any difference?), most of the fish die (the opinions, while the stars were more like dogmas or basis for such opinions, like measuring instruments), and most of the vessels sink (the civilizations and cities). It is in such a stage that the drama follows with the flaming star falling on the bridges, poisoning the waters and many die.

The "arrival" of a new star, of a new religion has always it's dual meaning of being salvation to some, abomination to others. Christ is messiah to some, abomination to the jews. Crowley the same thing. The bitternes of the waters that cause so many deaths is easy to explain, like Leví says, that initation "kills" many, only the strong survives (or, in another sense, the strong parts of the individual survive, while the weak parts, the useless parts, die from the bitterness of the waters of truth).

The star goes all the way to the abyss (obvious reference) from which emanates foam and locusts, the foam, levi says is doubt, I guess it could also be the confusion that each new Aeon brings. The locust with woman's hairs, Leví says means voloptuos materialism, I'm leaning more on a sensual outbreak that dissolves that which has been harvested. By that I mean, the locusts, that would mean something like lust or desire (in a "Pan" kind of way) eat away the harvest of christianity (all the moral tyrannies still very powerful in Crowley's days).

Like I said, some parts I understand from Leví (my only book on the matter), some by what I read here, and some from my own mind, BUT! here's what trouble's me, since the apocalypse (and I never meant it to be read in a "christian" way, I'm not THAT ignorant) it's written by a christian (I don't care right now if he was a gnostic or not), the point is he believed in a son of god defeating evil by his sacrifice, this creates the manichean approach of having the good and the bad, what troubles me is this:
How can it be interpreted in such a way as to avoid the manichean narrow-minded conception of good versus evil (jesus versus the beast) when many of the book's "scenes" are clearly taking that approach. There is a battle, one wins, the other get's locked away. And, from what I've read so far there seems to be a general concensus that the one getting locked up is the beast and not jesus (THAT would be surprising).

I have 3 hypothesis:
1.- The beast and his reign lasts one Aeon, like a Kali Yuga, and then a new Aeon will oppose it. So in a christian perspective we see the change of one period to another, the day of Pisces rising the death of Aries, and so the next step would be the death of Pisces the rising of Aquarium (the Beast), and the apocalypse could be anouncing the whole development, not only the rising of the Beast, but also the next Aeon. In this hypothesis is clear the reason why there is a conflict resulting in the demise of the beast, but at the same time granting the evolution of aeons as explaining the beast as one aeon, and since it's evolving it will one day be overcome (like aries and judaism to christianity, or more properly, from Isis to Osiris, to Horus).

2.- The manichean approach is inevitable, the author believed in such approach and deemed the beast as the bad guy, and believed his messiah would be absent for a while, covering a period of time, but ultimately returning as a conqueror, as if christianity would live, die of old age and then resurrect (much like Levi believed)

3.- The figures of Christ and the Beast can be changed depending on the chapter, context and situation, eliminating thus the manichean approach, but at the same time making the evolutionary process of one aeon to the next very complex, by making first the beast and then christ to represent the Law.

Again, I'm not very well-educated in these topics, but I'm not inocent enough as to read the apocalypse in the ordinary hollywood-style way.

One more thing, in Liber AL there is a mention to the prophet's magical son, could it be that the woman that scapes the beast carries his son, and the beast is not so much trying to kill his son as he is following the woman (some form of Nuit, certainly not Babalon) who evades the prophets but in the end delivers the child?

I have no clue to who is the son mentioned in Liber AL or it's hidden meaning, it's just a thought.
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 Anonymous
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Asclepio,

I would go with option number three. Levi somewhat does this with his two interpretations of Baphomet. It certainly eliminates the need for inflexable dualisms as you say. It would also seem to eliminate the need to consider the aeons in a successive manner or one in which the quality particular to each aeon is disposed of by the following one.

The magickal son is generally seen to be Frater Achad although I wouldn't rule out the prophecy applying to different people in different times who play that role otherwise we're left with a very linear way of thinking in reading The Book of the Law.

When I read Levi I see his creative mind using Revelations as a means to express his magickal views and so he turns it into an occult allegory. I wouldn't read it as THE real key to the book. He kind of shows us a deeper way of unlocking the symbols and it's interesting to note that he does so as a Catholic. Having many relatives who are involved with that tradition I can say that not too many of them could even get beyond the picture of Baphomet to make sense of Levis explaining it as a symbol for Christ. Taking the same approach to the Beast puts it in a much less "evil" context and makes it a symbol of some very positive qualities.

And I guess in a way it really took Aleister Crowley to do this. LOL. Just a few of my opinions. 🙂

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Kym


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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Adonia: Ta! I was half expecting to be tarred and feathered for that, but I'm glad the posters here can recognise that an ideological difference does not constitute a personal attack. So often when discussing things like this the speakers become incensed over some fairly innocent objections to their point of view.

One day I'll post up about a 'Light Worker' I know. Good God...

Anyway, Time is the Question, this thread continues to pwn all n00bs.


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