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 Anonymous
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

As those who have read Liber AL may be aware. There is a call in Chapter 3 (verses 43 - 45) for the Scarlet Woman (an Egyptian title given to Sekhmet, as a side issue) to see the worship of Nuith as an offence to them personally. Strange though as today most Thelemic women only like Thelemic men, as they occasionally express their lack of dislike for Nuith. My experience is that they see men who at least pay lip service to the Goddess as all right and the ‘Thelemites Girlfriend’ (giving them their full title) do most of the Goddess worship themselves.

Nuit is though more than a Goddess, she is the Universe itself and therefore the Creator of God. Men correctly worship her as she is on their side in the battle of the sexes, in favour of their philandering and viewing all women as just different apparitions of herself. Hadith conversely is on the women folk’s side, he is quite happy for his devotee women to think of men as the unfortunately necessary attachment to the male genitalia. Isn't it odd then that most Thelemite men seem to be on the whole worshipers of Hadith while the women find Hadith a bit revolting and by far prefer Nuith?

I think this is an error and one perpetrated by the prudery of the current society. Tantra and Alchemy (the Western equivalent) has taught me a better way of looking at it. Whilst I am Hadith in embodiment true, in my youth he would abandon me with the same whim as a girl in passings, like and dislike for me. It is only the worship of Nuith that has sustained me, though this to can be a threat to my girlfriends if they allow it. When teaching female students I have made it plain to them that the opposite applies in their circumstance. If they stick to purely Goddess worshipping (unless they are gay perhaps of course) on the whole they will be stuck either being purely male possessions or worse whiling away the time in nice safe fluffy pursuits, never really taking control of their lives. Girl power and Hadith power is the same thing to them and I for one think the Laddette is a step in the right direction.

It would improve Thelema’s standing as a whole if the men were more guarded of their worship of Hadith and we may see more women Thelemites in their own right too as a result. Bhakti for what you would like to see your self to be, is for the inadequate you see. Bhakti for the ‘other’ yields enlightenment.

Aleister Crowley locked his wife up for being an alcoholic, something that only men were tolerated being in those times. Rose Kelly was also Thelema’s first Left Hand Path Initiate, so on shaky grounds with him but that’s another story. Still it explains why I’m a Goddess Worshipping Black Brother Of The Left Hand Path.

Alex

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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Does it not also say, in the third chapter, that Ra-Hoor is meant to be the visible object of worship? As, there is no Nu or Had, at least as far as we can 'phantom' until the coming of their child ; in turn being 'visible' and on a level that we can comprehend.

Although, the idea of worshiping Had, I admit, is a little silly. After all, is he not the worshiper? Which might be the 'problem' you are pointing out, of the worshiper worshiping the worshiper (although the circle is a delight to behold). The 'problem' being that the worshiper is denying or unaware that the object of worship is Nuit (no matter how you put it).

None of this explaining why I am a Goddess worshiping Brother of The Winding Path.


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 Anonymous
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I always saw the act of worship of Nu to be worship of Had, since the act of worshipping is what Had is for.


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 Anonymous
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Sethur666, your post makes little, if any, sense.

"seeing & strike at the worship of Nu" is not taking Nuith work as a personal offense. "Had worship" is a tautology. It makes no sense.

are you really saying you're a black brother, an abomination unto babalon, walling yourself off at the edge of the abyss in mortal terror of the dissolution of all? if so, how can you call yourself a thelemite at the same time?

i have no idea what your experience of priests of nuit and priestesses of ra-hoor-kuit is, or how experience of legitimate examples of same would lead you to the conclusions you have drawn. it runs contrary to everthing i've ever experienced among those who are of us.

i simply cannot comprehend where you're coming from here. i highly recommend reading the prophet's commentaries to Liber AL vel Legis; perhaps they will clear things up for you.

Love is the law, love under will


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 Anonymous
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"luxinhominefactum" wrote:
i simply cannot comprehend where you're coming from here. i highly recommend reading the prophet's commentaries to Liber AL vel Legis; perhaps they will clear things up for you.

Love is the law, love under will

well said


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"luxinhominefactum" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

Sethur666, your post makes little, if any, sense.

"seeing & strike at the worship of Nu" is not taking Nuith work as a personal offense. "Had worship" is a tautology. It makes no sense.

are you really saying you're a black brother, an abomination unto babalon, walling yourself off at the edge of the abyss in mortal terror of the dissolution of all? if so, how can you call yourself a thelemite at the same time?

i have no idea what your experience of priests of nuit and priestesses of ra-hoor-kuit is, or how experience of legitimate examples of same would lead you to the conclusions you have drawn. it runs contrary to everthing i've ever experienced among those who are of us.

i simply cannot comprehend where you're coming from here. i highly recommend reading the prophet's commentaries to Liber AL vel Legis; perhaps they will clear things up for you.

Love is the law, love under will

93 luxinhominefactum,

When I first glanced at sethur666's post, I think that I automatically misread it as "I always saw the act of worship of Nu to be worship as Had," so thanks for pointing that out.

As for the overall harsh tone of your correction, perhaps we must next consider 'cutting contact' with sethur666, in full Mottasian style? 😉

93 93/93
Camlion


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Baxian
(@baxian)
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Hi Alex

I think the worship of Nuit, Hadit and Ra Hoor Kuit are all important. Admitedly the way I perceive the word worship may be different from how you see the word.
Worship to me, is about giving due attention, and initiating a relationship. I therefore consider all of the deities valueable.

The way I percieve Nuit, Hadit and Ra-hoor-kuit is as part of an ecology, if one is left out, it would effect the other I suspect. Or may indeed effect the birth-right power available.
My feeling is that a thelemite would use their own intuition as to what "deity" they most needed to work with. So I dont see much or any fault with working with Hadit mostly, or Nuit or whatever, as that may be what that person most needs.


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alysa
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I also think that if you are a Thelemite, it might be important that all three deities are seeing to as valuable. Thougt further I have a question what exactly are you meening that you are a "Goddes Worshiping Black Brother"?


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 Anonymous
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According to Hadit: "Come unto me" is a foolish word: for it is I that go. Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me; ill, for I am the worshipper. AL:II:7-8


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Baxian
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Camilion

"Camlion" wrote:
According to Hadit: "Come unto me" is a foolish word: for it is I that go. Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me; ill, for I am the worshipper. AL:II:7-8

Yes, interesting quote.
"the dao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao" comes to mind here. And Hadit seems somewhat like this...
So I suppose it would be fair to say, that a person can not worship hadit really..."II,23: I am alone: there is no God where I am."
Worship to many people implies duality, and fair enough.
Hadit seems to me something like the Tao, or the non-dual or shiva of some tantrick cults.
So for me, from this perspective it would seem that Hadit without Nuit would seem rather un-useful in this world, much like without Ra hoor-Kuit a person might not have a lot of mastery over "the strength, force, vigour" of their arms, hence my take, that all would seem useful, whether man or woman.


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alysa
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Seems also an interesting thought to my opinion.


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 Anonymous
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"Baxian" wrote:
Camilion

"Camlion" wrote:
According to Hadit: "Come unto me" is a foolish word: for it is I that go. Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me; ill, for I am the worshipper. AL:II:7-8

Yes, interesting quote.
"the dao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao" comes to mind here. And Hadit seems somewhat like this...
So I suppose it would be fair to say, that a person can not worship hadit really..."II,23: I am alone: there is no God where I am."
Worship to many people implies duality, and fair enough.
Hadit seems to me something like the Tao, or the non-dual or shiva of some tantrick cults.
So for me, from this perspective it would seem that Hadit without Nuit would seem rather un-useful in this world, much like without Ra hoor-Kuit a person might not have a lot of mastery over "the strength, force, vigour" of their arms, hence my take, that all would seem useful, whether man or woman.

Hadit is emphatic about being the worshiper in the example of worship, the writer in the example of writing, the knower in the example of knowing. He seems to be asserting his identity with the reader of Liber AL, as well. 🙂


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IAO131
(@iao131)
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"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

As those who have read Liber AL may be aware. There is a call in Chapter 3 (verses 43 - 45) for the Scarlet Woman (an Egyptian title given to Sekhmet, as a side issue) to see the worship of Nuith as an offence to them personally.

Im not sure it does. The only thing that could be close to what you suggest is, "Then will I lift her to pinnacles of power: then will I breed from her a child mightier than all the kings of the earth. I will fill her with joy: with my force shall she see & strike at the worship of Nu: she shall achieve Hadit." (III:45)

To strike at the worship of Nu and achieve Hadit might just be another way of saying 'she shall become [identified with] Hadit and attain to Nuit]. Martial metaphors ('strike at' etc) abound in ch.3

Isn't it odd then that most Thelemite men seem to be on the whole worshipers of Hadith while the women find Hadith a bit revolting and by far prefer Nuith?

That just isn't true on the face of it. In a more subtle sense, men CAN'T be worshippers of Hadit because he is the one that goes. (AL II,8: "Who worshipped Heru-pa-kraath have worshipped me; ill, for I am the worshipper..." while Nuit says, "Put on the wings, and arouse the coiled splendour within you: come unto me!" in AL I,61)

It would improve Thelema’s standing as a whole if the men were more guarded of their worship of Hadith and we may see more women Thelemites in their own right too as a result. Bhakti for what you would like to see your self to be, is for the inadequate you see. Bhakti for the ‘other’ yields enlightenment.

I have no idea who or what you are referring to.

Aleister Crowley locked his wife up for being an alcoholic, something that only men were tolerated being in those times. Rose Kelly was also Thelema’s first Left Hand Path Initiate, so on shaky grounds with him but that’s another story. Still it explains why I’m a Goddess Worshipping Black Brother Of The Left Hand Path.

Sounds like a silly label but Do what thou wilt - I think Rose Kelly being 'Thelema's first Left Hand Path Initiate' is quite spurious and silly for, first, it presupposes 'a left hand path of Thelema' even though There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt and, secondly, theres no evidence for her doing much but getting drunk and perhaps leading to Liber AL's reception. How does that make her an initiate, let alone Left Hand Path? Im not sure it was meant seriously, although it probably was, so Ill just leave it as it is.

IAO131


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 Anonymous
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"IAO131" wrote:
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Isn't it odd then that most Thelemite men seem to be on the whole worshipers of Hadith while the women find Hadith a bit revolting and by far prefer Nuith?

It would improve Thelema’s standing as a whole if the men were more guarded of their worship of Hadith and we may see more women Thelemites in their own right too as a result. Bhakti for what you would like to see your self to be, is for the inadequate you see. Bhakti for the ‘other’ yields enlightenment.

I have no idea who or what you are referring to.

If I'm not mistaken, Alex is attempting to address a perceived 'phallocentricity' in Thelema. If so, the consideration is not at all appropriate, especially to the level of Had and Nu, as each of us (regardless of gender) is as Had unto Nu. Each one is a star.


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phthah
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93,
I have always considered the verses in question (AL iii 43-45) to indicate not only the proper conduct or attitude of the Scarlet Women, but also that of the Woman of Thelema in general.

"Camlion" wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, Alex is attempting to address a perceived 'phallocentricity' in Thelema. If so, the consideration is not at all appropriate, especially to the level of Had and Nu, as each of us (regardless of gender) is as Had unto Nu. Each one is a star.

Yes, A.C. wrote that this is the Aeon of two sexes in one, (See his comments on the formula of FIAOF in MTP for example). Nuit is Woman, and Hadit is Man. They are complimentary. This perceived "phallocentricity" (nice word BTW 🙂 ) may be due to the fact that the Aeon is relatively young and the forces of the old Aeon are still gasping for one last breath. However, this Aeon should see the full liberation of Woman.

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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Union of woman and man, Nuit and Hadit, as stated above, reminds of this current Aeon of Horus, The Crowned and conquering child, which is seen as the unification and some kind of transformation of the earlier aeons. Matriarchal aeon of Isis, earth and woman, and patriarchal aeon of Osiris, sun and man to become very-individual aeon of Horus, where WE are a child, who just become self-aware. Nowadays we recognize the individual as the basic unit of society. Truly the time of an individual. We have seen colonialism falling, no more kings ruling the nations. Temporal power of the pope is gone, illusion of the omnipotent spiritual power of the Church is fading ( growing "trend" of apostasy ).

- 93 -


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 Anonymous
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And to comment the more above, as we have seen allready the aeons of both man,and woman, and now the current aeon is young indeed and still struggling with the change from earlier aeon into the new aeon. The perfecting of change takes time. And yeah, I agree that Aeon should see the full liberation of Woman and man and woman should be treated with same respect and pride some day.


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 Anonymous
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"Azoneris" wrote:
... and man and woman should be treated with same respect and pride some day.

What's wrong with today?


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 Anonymous
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Well for example, just in our school ( I study business economics ), we have had talk many times about how mans 1 € is womans 80 cent, thought woman would have at least the same education. That`s only one example, but my vision of today is as a whole that woman is only on its way to the same line as man. I guess I`m a bit possessed by some cultures of foreign cultures from the view from Finland, where in many countries men threat their wifes like slaves and threat them very badly.

"If there would no be women, men would still be talking with Gods"..


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 Anonymous
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"Azoneris" wrote:
Well for example, just in our school ( I study business economics ), we have had talk many times about how mans 1 € is womans 80 cent, thought woman would have at least the same education. That`s only one example, but my vision of today is as a whole that woman is only on its way to the same line as man. I guess I`m a bit possessed by some cultures of foreign cultures from the view from Finland, where in many countries men threat their wifes like slaves and threat them very badly.

"If there would no be women, men would still be talking with Gods"..

Sorry, my phrasing was ambiguous. I meant 'What's wrong with treating men and women with the same respect and pride today, as opposed to some future day?'


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 Anonymous
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"Cuvalwen" wrote:
"Azoneris" wrote:
Well for example, just in our school ( I study business economics ), we have had talk many times about how mans 1 € is womans 80 cent, thought woman would have at least the same education. That`s only one example, but my vision of today is as a whole that woman is only on its way to the same line as man. I guess I`m a bit possessed by some cultures of foreign cultures from the view from Finland, where in many countries men threat their wifes like slaves and threat them very badly.

"If there would no be women, men would still be talking with Gods"..

Sorry, my phrasing was ambiguous. I meant 'What's wrong with treating men and women with the same respect and pride today, as opposed to some future day?'

I believe that Thelema, properly understood, corrects the grievous error of gender politics. Unfortunately, if not properly understood, Thelema can actually reinforce that error.

This error, reinforced in Thelemic terms, might be expressed by such as this, even with the best of intentions - as I'm sure was the case with phthah:

"phthah" wrote:
Nuit is Woman, and Hadit is Man. They are complimentary.

Which might easily be misconstrued to contradict what I wrote earlier:

"Camlion" wrote:
the consideration is not at all appropriate, especially to the level of Had and Nu, as each of us (regardless of gender) is as Had unto Nu. Each one is a star.

My point being that each star, whether man or woman, is as Hadit engaged in Nuit.

Perhaps the error is in the mistransposition of Nuit-Hadit directly to Babalon-Therion? (Thelemite males have been accused of relating to females as 'mere vessels.')

In any case, 'be thou Hadit,' regardless of gender, and 'do what thou wilt.' 🙂


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 Anonymous
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93

For Cuvalwen:

There is absolutely nothing wrong if it would happen today. As I just don`t see it could become very quickly some kind of global value and principle. The change from aeon to another aeon is compared into that, when child finally decides to move out from home. You know all the problems and everything, getting used to it and accepting, still knowing all the time its the right solution and things have their times and places. Just when thinking about change from Aeon of Isis into the Aeon of Osiris, which began approximately 500 b.c. ( according to the Liber AL ), but if I remember right, DuQUette said in his book, that it was correctly and perfectly changed about 1100 e.v.. So I see that it cannot happen today but maybe in future because so vast change takes time. For example, on the Aeon of Isis, the worship of God-deity ( for example Ishtar/Inanna) was truly an universal phenomenon. I`m not talking about things happening only on small areas, but also,or mainly in this case, about things happening worldwide.
I got from your question a feeling that you`d think I wouldn`t want women to be threated like men now-a-days. It`s not a case, if it would depend on me, it would happen instanly. 🙂 People are slowly getting wiser and enlightning, and getting used to things and opening themselves. And please let me know, If I was missing a point you wanted to know on my answer.

And to Camlion:

You wrote good points. It came to my mind instantly something that interests me a lot, and something I havent yet read a lot.. So called Babalon working, where women is used as a magical tool or something (?).

And about my view onto women: I believe there is something truly magical in connection between man and woman ( and even in human-relationships not depending on gender, each one being one universe, If I wanna use romantic languance. ), and thought I could say I`m sometimes openly pervert, I see the things that man can achiece with woman as totally huge in spiritual way, For example the power of Sex magic, just think..and if I get into serious relationsship with woman, I`m not taking any bimbos or anything, I want my woman to have brains.

93/93


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 Anonymous
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And when saying more sharply, I ment that on the Isis-aeon it was the female-god that was worshipped. And like I said Inanna or Ishtar are both female. And btw they are the same, but with different names cause of the differences between Babylonian and Sumerian traditon.


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 Anonymous
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One's viewpoint is, on a metaphysical plane, that 'I' am Hadit, male-dynamic, the unique star that is the True Soul: within, and a part of , Nuit, static feminine.
Further, One considers Hadit as Knowledge, movement, and Nuit Understanding, matter. The inverted result is Hoor-Paar-Kraat; The evolutionary twin chld, as manifest: Ra-Hoor-Khuit.
Therefore, 'to worship me is a foolish word, for it is I that go.' Indicates Hadit as self conciosness.
This was the the initial enlightenment One experienced apon first reading Liber Al.
Is it not so, that all aspirants are 'male', i.e. Hadit, dynamic, below the abyss, until the crossing of such, when 'The Secret Name' is given unto One, who, having surrendered to the graal, does mingle therein, becoming The Feminine, now Babalon?
Does the original querant/observerver, realise the enormity of what a black brother is? Surely,
this is to deny the goal of the aspirant, as described and widely understood?
This is, to my mind, a most puzzling statement. Would He, Alex, care to elaborate?
Serenity-OneAll


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Aleisterion
(@aleisterion)
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I think that Crowley's Liber Nu and Liber Had are unexcelled at expounding, both in theory and practice, the respective natures of these mystical/magical forces.


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 Anonymous
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I agree, Absolutely! In theory, sublime, comprensive.
In practice: surprisingly potent!!!


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 Anonymous
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"luxinhominefactum" wrote:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

"seeing & strike at the worship of Nu" is not taking Nuith work as a personal offense. "Had worship" is a tautology. It makes no sense.

are you really saying you're a black brother, an abomination unto babalon, walling yourself off at the edge of the abyss in mortal terror of the dissolution of all? if so, how can you call yourself a thelemite at the same time?

i have no idea what your experience of priests of nuit and priestesses of ra-hoor-kuit is, or how experience of legitimate examples of same would lead you to the conclusions you have drawn. it runs contrary to everthing i've ever experienced among those who are of us.

i simply cannot comprehend where you're coming from here. i highly recommend reading the prophet's commentaries to Liber AL vel Legis; perhaps they will clear things up for you.

Love is the law, love under will

Where do I start? Firstly I am not really interested in Aleister Crowley's interpretation of Liber AL. I have my own and it generally totally disagrees with his. In fact that is partly my point. All religious traditions that actually attain religious truth (whatever that may be) have in them the opposer. As such if anything I am the anti-Crowley, I am no-beast and Babalon (though I have nothing against her) is not my bride.
Seriously though, I have allways got on much better with purple women than sacrlet ones really (as in the opposite end of the spectrum). Scarlet women are fine by me though, good on them, they're just not my type. Hathoor rather than Sekhemet is more my type, though they are both aspects of the same principle. Sekhemet was Upper Egypt's Hathoor, though she was a solar goddess rather than a lunar one like Lower Egypt's bride of Horus. All of Egyptian spirituality is based on duality and contadiction. Thelema is not just a new form of patriarchal religion it has the chance of actually being civilised like the Egyptians.

Crowley's vision of Thelema and worse those who are trying to establish a 'complete' orthodoxy on his work alone, are missing the point I feel. This is just replacing one moronic religion like the ones that we had over 100 years ago with another equally bland and without much soul. The religions that contain their opposite are the one's that actually have a valid spiritual or enlightening process built in. Hence Christianity is only a worthwhile pursuit to the Satanist and vice versa. Those that have both a left and right hand path that work together are the most 'spiritual' in that they have generally lasted a lot longer (look at Hindusim). If you have difficulty understading this sort of concept I would stay away from doing any serious magick until you grasp it fully, as it is absolutely essential.

Crowley's work is important though it's just not complete. It's like two legs and half the top of a table, without the other side it doesn't stay up.

As for my original post it was based upon Tantrik teachings, which was mostly untranslated in Crowley's time. The Book Of The Law was accepted as an official Tantra of the Adinath Samprodaya. I'm an athiest alchemical Thelemite and hold to the saying 'There is no god but man' on the whole. I see Ra Hoor Khuith as a sort of Legba figure or highest of the lowest of the many gods, like the king of the angels or spirits. They are below the abyss though just like us and disolve above it just like we do. The only thing that is above the abyss is the Hadith-Nuith or Shiva-Shakti from Tantrika or whatever you want to call it.
I suppose you could say that the Universe created God so he returned the favour. I have to say though I don't believe in 'God' and I don't think he does either 🙂 .

Alex

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

I suggest to all of you to read the Tunis Comment I think it solves all questionings of what is worshipped or written!

Love is the law, love under will.


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 Anonymous
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"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Crowley's work is important though it's just not complete. It's like two legs and half the top of a table, without the other side it doesn't stay up.

What a strange thing to say at the home of the A. Crowley society!

Even stranger is the concept that I agree with you.

It has been clearly stated and explained (elsewhere) that there are two primary streams (yin and yang, if you will) of the White Brotherhood operating on and in our planet. Crowley and his work is probably the prime example of the yang stream. The yin stream is represented by other personas, which/whom I will not name or otherwise get into, that can be summed up in the word Transhimalayan (Trans-).

Certain Trans- concepts, publications, etc. amazingly (sometimes) fill in gaps in Crowley's concepts, texts, etc. that A.C. never came close to expounding. And these "fill-ins" have turned out to be, in my opinion, Keys of the greatest magnitude (that means "important").

But, having said the above, I must also state that personally I have found Crowley's system to be the absolutely most practical approach to illumination. By system, I mean his Class D rituals and Class C explanatory (sic?) textbooks - the stuff that says "Here's what you do, and here's how you do it!"

If one simply does the work, and avoids all the philosophical-intellectual gibberish, and all the personal and structural involvements, I have found that Crowley's table will stay up - but it's so much more stable when blended with the appropriate, complimentary concepts.


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lashtal
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"HeliosMegistos" wrote:
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Crowley's work is important though it's just not complete...

What a strange thing to say at the home of the A. Crowley society!

Of course his work isn't complete. How could it be? Quite apart from obvious matters relating to the seer and the seen, he died six decades ago and much has been learnt in the intervening period.

I do wonder sometimes, though, just how thoroughly those who seem so keen to remove Crowley from Thelema have really studied his works and have really done the work. His system is both incredibly simple and terribly complex, and it must be tempting to dismiss his significance in preference to putting in some effort.

Not that I'm accusing anyone in this thread of taking that route of least persistence, of course: present company always excluded!

Bath water and babies!

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LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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LOL Alex Bennet,

I see the harping on the incompleteness of Crowley's Work as a system of Attainment, then I click on your site and see it is very blatantly nearly all about Crowley's Work! It has the usual standard Book of Law in text and manuscript, and a list of Crowley's writings...I found that quite funny!

I also find Crowley's system complete in essence, noting the fact that nothing can be perfected down to the last detail, though expect it to keep being expanded and clarified upon. One could say it is basically the Tree of Life with its 10 Grades, and so the current "system" was in place since 1500 or earlier.

So is it really Crowley's system? I don't think so. Since Crowley adopts the 10 Grades of Tree of Life based Rosicrucianism, I would not call it unique but itself an expansion and modification, being an attempt at streamlining or making more powerful the system. Of course Crowley's system has the additional power of the Aeonic Tantra and Current of Thelema behind it.

I think if all the current traditions made the effort to attribute their attainment or enlightenment structures to the Tree of Life it would add a nice clarity to the world systems; I would be interested in the comparisons.


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 Anonymous
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"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Crowley's vision of Thelema and worse those who are trying to establish a 'complete' orthodoxy on his work alone, are missing the point I feel. This is just replacing one moronic religion like the ones that we had over 100 years ago with another equally bland and without much soul. The religions that contain their opposite are the one's that actually have a valid spiritual or enlightening process built in. Hence Christianity is only a worthwhile pursuit to the Satanist and vice versa. Those that have both a left and right hand path that work together are the most 'spiritual' in that they have generally lasted a lot longer (look at Hindusim). If you have difficulty understading this sort of concept I would stay away from doing any serious magick until you grasp it fully, as it is absolutely essential.

Interesting, Alex. It would seem to me that Crowley's impetus was, in part, on broadening the scope of Thelema, as it applies to the human population. This usually involves graduated tiers of understanding and appreciation of the central principle of the Law in question, so as retain purity for the relatively few who can apprehend it, while also allowing access to the rest of the population at levels appropriate to their personal disposition and aptitude. The opportunity for personal advancement of understanding and appreciation is retained, hopefully. Yes, this may appear on the surface to be a 'dumbing down' of Thelema, but it does seem to insure that the Law is, indeed, for all. It is also in the broadening of the scope of a religion, rather than in the narrowing of it, that its very survival is insured, beyond one or two generations of the population.

By the way, I think that Crowley had most of the "table," following your analogy. Certainly more than only half of it. Perhaps one of the four legs was shorter than the rest, and the table wobbled at bit. 🙂


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 Anonymous
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"Nuit is though more than a Goddess, she is the Universe itself and therefore the Creator of God." From the opening post by Alex_Bennett.

I dont`t know but that sounded a bit disturbing, when I instantly remembered the Ennead of Heliopolis ( http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/Ennead.html ), and where Nuit is not located so high of all creation as that opening makes me think..

But maybe I should think Nuit as dependable on the current context.

- 93 -


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 Anonymous
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"lashtal" wrote:
"HeliosMegistos" wrote:
"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
Crowley's work is important though it's just not complete...

What a strange thing to say at the home of the A. Crowley society!

Of course his work isn't complete. How could it be? Quite apart from obvious matters relating to the seer and the seen, he died six decades ago and much has been learnt in the intervening period.

I do wonder sometimes, though, just how thoroughly those who seem so keen to remove Crowley from Thelema have really studied his works and have really done the work. His system is both incredibly simple and terribly complex, and it must be tempting to dismiss his significance in preference to putting in some effort.

Not that I'm accusing anyone in this thread of taking that route of least persistence, of course: present company always excluded!

Bath water and babies!

Yes, with no offense to anyone in particular, the glaring lack of both study and practice within Crowley's system prior to dismissing it is quite astonishing. An excellent example is the leap from 'Nuit-Hadit' to 'Babalon-Therion,' as if the two were interchangeable - which they most certainly are not. Then, having failed to even begin to understand the aforementioned, comes the automatic next leap to Aleister Crowley the man and his relationship with any given one of his mistresses! The illogical conclusion: 'Thelema is a boy's club.' Astonishing.


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 Anonymous
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Therion and Babalon can be seen as Chokmah and Binah, or Shiva and Shakti, And Nuit and Hadit can be identified in Kabbalist way of interpreting in Ain Soph and in Ain ( and Ra- Roor- Khuit in Ain Soph Aur )
Elementally:
Nuit = Air
Hadit = Fire
Therion = Earth
Babalon = Water

I had a clue this will now become an topic to discuss the differences between Babalon/Therion and Nuit/Hadit, so here`s the beginning, if it will even start. Might be a long discussion, if all the differences are told..


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 Anonymous
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"Azoneris" wrote:
...the differences between Babalon/Therion and Nuit/Hadit ... Might be a long discussion, if all the differences are told..

Differences? What differences? "Let there be NO DIFFERENCE...etc ... for thereby cometh hurt."

OK, so there will probably be some hurting and turmoil and pain, because people just LOVE to make differences. My contribution will be to attempt a containment of the differences.

Any and all male/female, positive/negative, light/dark manifestations are simply reflections of the original yin/yang duality that issued from the void. See the 2 in the 0=2 equation that is endlessly debated elsewhere on these threads.

That young man and his girlfriend over there are simply stepped-down reflections of asar/isa who reflect therion/babalon, who are reduced from nuit/hadit, who are a form of shiva/shakti, who represent the yin/yang issuance from the black hole. Not arranged in a strict hierarchical order, although one could possibly found a dynasty or an Ordo from the listing.

The only "difference" is in the level of consciousness under consideration. And we certainly don't want to "confuse the planes."

If you wish to differ from the above definition(s), then get out the band-aids 'cause it's gonna hurt. 😛


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 Anonymous
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Yes, human nature seems to be such seeking more often rather things separating than things uniting. And if deeper, all just seems to be just totally united, zero.. But to get the conversation meaningful there sometimes has to made some kind of "Work-hypothesis", be it good/evil or stupid/intelligent and so on. If we don`t take a negative from the picture, we will never get a perfect positive.
And yes, the unity-duality-issue you brought here again ( 0 =2 ) seems to have its place in this topic. Duality being a truly one and none.

"Below them is a seeming duality of Chaos and Babalon; these are called Father and Mother, but it is not so. They are called Brother and Sister, but it is not so. They are called Husband and Wife, but it is not so."

&

"How infinite is distance from this to that! Yet all is here and now. Nor is there any there of then; for all that is; for all that is, what is it but a manifestation, that is, a part, that is, a falsehood, of THAT which is not?" - The book of lies.

I many times say also this "All is in everything." and "There are no truths, only what`s permitted."

Be it flames, rain or nothing at all.
EN TO PAN.
93.


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 Anonymous
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"HeliosMegistos" wrote:
"Azoneris" wrote:
...the differences between Babalon/Therion and Nuit/Hadit ... Might be a long discussion, if all the differences are told..

Differences? What differences? "Let there be NO DIFFERENCE...etc ... for thereby cometh hurt."

OK, so there will probably be some hurting and turmoil and pain, because people just LOVE to make differences. My contribution will be to attempt a containment of the differences.

Any and all male/female, positive/negative, light/dark manifestations are simply reflections of the original yin/yang duality that issued from the void. See the 2 in the 0=2 equation that is endlessly debated elsewhere on these threads.

That young man and his girlfriend over there are simply stepped-down reflections of asar/isa who reflect therion/babalon, who are reduced from nuit/hadit, who are a form of shiva/shakti, who represent the yin/yang issuance from the black hole. Not arranged in a strict hierarchical order, although one could possibly found a dynasty or an Ordo from the listing.

The only "difference" is in the level of consciousness under consideration. And we certainly don't want to "confuse the planes."

If you wish to differ from the above definition(s), then get out the band-aids 'cause it's gonna hurt. 😛

I must disagree, in the interest of a required greater degree of subtlety. 🙂

The 'Nuit-Hadit' (which are inseparable) identity which is common to each one of us as stars in space is a pre-gender identity. So, yes, we certainly don't want to "confuse the planes."

The 'Babalon' and 'Therion,' or the female and male gender identities each carry within themselves the same 'Nuit-Hadit' (combined) primary identity.

So, no, these are not "simply stepped-down reflections." Misunderstanding these subtitles could, and often does, promote the misunderstanding that, for example, a woman is as Nuit devoid of Hadit, or a man is as Hadit devoid of Nuit, or some such sense of separation more appropriate to the roles of either Babalon or Therion.

In order to preserve the primary identity, 'Nuit-Hadit,' it is important to retain it in proper perspective as other ancillary identities are considered. Each of us is, as with subject and object, composed of the interplay between Nuit and Hadit. We are not one without the other, as is the case within the roles of Babalon and Therion.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"Camlion" wrote:
I must disagree...

Does it hurt much? Where does it hurt?

Seriously, I cannot disagree with anything you have written (in your reply).
I am quite capable of making the same (or similar) differentiations, but have merely chosen to take the 2=0 path during this round of this topic. 8)


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 Anonymous
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PS: I very much like that Alfred E. Neumanesque portrait. 🙂


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
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Posts: 542
 

Alex wrote a fantastic opening thread post. The points that he makes are beyond some of the subsequent wrestling. I do not see the value in arguing over the Trinity.

I suspect that if old AC was here, he would listen attentively to what Alex is saying. I too feel that Rose was the most important Woman in his life, & the tragedy of their romance is one of the most touching that I know. She was very beautiful, & was also the conduit of his attainment. The other women in his life would never replace Rose.

To fully understand The Book Of The Law, we need to see Crowley as a boy who was very much in Love. He combined all of his pursuits into that transmission, & without her it would not have happened in the way it did. The regret that he felt in the latter years of his life attest to this.

This thread, as started by Alex, is about Romance.


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 Anonymous
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"Camlion" wrote:
PS: I very much like that Alfred E. Neumanesque portrait. 🙂


Why thank you.
You may wish to visit the portrait in its original placement at
http://crystal-city.angelfire.com /"> http://crystal-city.angelfire.com/
Go past the gateway page(s); select "Continue" on page 1 ["An Open Letter"] and St. Nu-Man is at the bottom of page 2 ["Warning"].
Please be prepared to destroy your computer after the first reading.


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Horemakhet
(@horemakhet)
Member
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Posts: 542
 

.. I love it too, it kicks ass, but back to the discussion....


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 Anonymous
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Topic starter  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"Horemakhet" wrote:
Alex wrote a fantastic opening thread post. The points that he makes are beyond some of the subsequent wrestling. I do not see the value in arguing over the Trinity.

I suspect that if old AC was here, he would listen attentively to what Alex is saying. I too feel that Rose was the most important Woman in his life, & the tragedy of their romance is one of the most touching that I know. She was very beautiful, & was also the conduit of his attainment. The other women in his life would never replace Rose.

To fully understand The Book Of The Law, we need to see Crowley as a boy who was very much in Love. He combined all of his pursuits into that transmission, & without her it would not have happened in the way it did. The regret that he felt in the latter years of his life attest to this.

This thread, as started by Alex, is about Romance.

Finally a taker on this subject! I agree with you about Rose Kelly, who is my number one Thelemic hero (let alone heroin). Crowley in my opinion pails beside her, that triumphant queen of the Nu Aeon. She is our first on the Left Hand Path and is only gotten close to in the male sense by Austin Osman Spare, Gerald Gardner and of course Laurence Miles (aka Shri Dadaji Mahendranath, head of the Adinath Samprodaya and the Uttara Kaulas). All Crowley's scarlet women deserve a medal in my opinion.
Those who stood up to Aleister and especially sexually by it's very nature, were asking for trouble. Conversely those who grovelled at his feet do not inspire us and we forget them and rightfully so. We laugh at those fools who gave their fortune to AC for him to spend on drugs and whores don't we. Just like we laugh at those students of Gurdjieff who bought him a Rolls Royce only for him to ask them to remove the wheels and then carry him arround in it (taking lots of people's backs to do), what a joker heh? LOOSERS!
THELEMA IS A CHALLENGE TO THE VERY SOUL! If it ain't doing that it ain't working. The Goddess (Nuit) is a challenge to the male Thelemite as the God (Hadith) is a challenge to the female Thelemite (gay people work it out). Our duty to ouselves is to find the opposite, the Nuith-Hadith, the Shiva-Shakti within ourselves, so we can become whole.

Alex

Love is the law, love under will.

Love is the law, love under will


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 Anonymous
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"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
The Goddess (Nuit) is a challenge to the male Thelemite as the God (Hadith) is a challenge to the female Thelemite...

Sorry, I'm not getting it, Alex. What are these challenges? Clearer examples, please? (Rose Kelly aside, please. Perhaps people you have met?)


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 Anonymous
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"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
...Rose Kelly, who is my number one Thelemic hero (let alone heroin). Crowley in my opinion pails beside her...
...LOOSERS!...If it ain't doing that it ain't working...

"Heroin" is a derivative of opium used to inflict insensibility upon consciousness. A "Heroine" is a female hero. It's not certain which usage you meant. Can you clarify your intention?

A man could "pale" (as in grow fainter) beside a woman, but I never heard of a man "pailing" unless it is meant that he fell into the "pail" of whatever (sort of like the "pit called because").

"LOOSERS" would imply a "loose woman" or a "loose man" or even a "loose screw" (implying mild or advanced insanity). On the other hand a "LOSER" would be one who has lost out.

"Ain't" is quaint, but generally consider backward and uncultured.

Thank you for providing the opportunity to either correct your spelling or ask you to clarify your intention.

The overwhelming enthusiasm of your post is enough to encourage me to either (a) become younger again, or (b) seek out a source for stimulants.

Thanks, HM


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 Anonymous
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Topic starter  

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Firstly please excues my dislexia. I am a right brained person and so suffer from not being that usefull to government or people with a control fixation. In fact they probably hate me and so they should.

To prioritise: The challenge of being a male Thelemite is to love Nuith completely and unconditionally, in fact to fail to do so invokes the wrath of Ra Hoor Khuith. The callenge of being a female Thelemite is to love Hadith completely and unconditionally (and not be distracted by mortal men) and Ra Hoor Khuith takes a dim view of this too.
Quite simply, falure to make yourself whole, makes you only half the person you could be, cut down the middle you fail to reach your full potential. You then get punnished by reality for not being your full true self and exerting your true will. Bummer hey?

As for slagging me off for poor spelling and other such stuff. I think you should take the stimulant option you suggest. At least you will feel young then and we all only have so much joy in us perhaps. Though I will allways try for more!

Alex

Love is tha law , love under will.


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phthah
(@phthah)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 210
 

93 Camlion,

"Camlion" wrote:
I believe that Thelema, properly understood, corrects the grievous error of gender politics. Unfortunately, if not properly understood, Thelema can actually reinforce that error.

This error, reinforced in Thelemic terms, might be expressed by such as this, even with the best of intentions - as I'm sure was the case with phthah:

phthah wrote: › Select ›‹ Expand
Nuit is Woman, and Hadit is Man. They are complimentary.

Which might easily be misconstrued to contradict what I wrote earlier:

Camlion wrote: › Select ›‹ Expand
the consideration is not at all appropriate, especially to the level of Had and Nu, as each of us (regardless of gender) is as Had unto Nu. Each one is a star.

It is of course my fault that you misunderstood what I said above about Nuit and Hadit. I was not speaking of humans (Stars), but more of principles in Nature. The point I was making was really in regards to this being the Aeon of two sexes in one and the balancing thereof, which really goes along with what you say. I in no way meant that man is devoid of Nuit or woman of Hadit etc. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words on my part, though I must admit it did not dawn on me that it could possibly be misconstrued in the way you mention. Of course I agree with what you say. Every man and every woman is star. We are each a unit of Nuit and Hadit is "the core of every star" etc.

"Camlion" wrote:
Perhaps the error is in the mistransposition of Nuit-Hadit directly to Babalon-Therion? (Thelemite males have been accused of relating to females as 'mere vessels.')

Perhaps, but keep in mind that to A.C., Babalon is also a secret word for Nuit! 😉 For this see AL i22 and The Book of Lies chapter 49.

BTW, sorry for the lateness of this response. I haven't had much time for posting lately. 🙂

93 93/93


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 Anonymous
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The word is "dyslexia." Right-brain orientation understood. You will not be sponsored for government service (this year).

"Alex_Bennett" wrote:
As for slagging me off for poor spelling and other such stuff. I think you should take the stimulant option you suggest.

Fair enough! I'll be right over!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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"HeliosMegistos" wrote:
The overwhelming enthusiasm of your post is enough to encourage me to either (a) become younger again, or (b) seek out a source for stimulants.

"I resemble that remark!" -The Stooges Three. 😉


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