Little intelligence on display there, artificial or otherwise.

It's either drunk or has gone completely crazy in just a few months. Which is of course quite dangerous. In real life noone would let you go away with "Sorry for my previous wrong answer, here is another one." I have to go with Michael here. Or ist it just a parody?

What LLMs are good for/at is what is known (when done by humans) as "bullshitting".

LLMs simply decide what is the most likely next word to come after the ones that have already produced. They will thus give wildly different answers to the same question if asked more than once, and will often produce extremely wrong answers.

This is because there is no "intelligence" judging whether what it is saying makes any sense, no truth-testing of what it says against an internalized "map" of knowledge of the world, none of the processes that take place when humans speak.

LLMs can solve math equations, do some basic software programming, and pass tests (eg medical and bar exams), because in these rare and limited cases there is an objective "right answer" and thus probabilistic methods will tend to head towards that right answer because it is statistically common. When they venture into the murky waters of historical and cultural matters, they are lost, and generate bullshit.

LLMs are nothing like "artificial intelligence"- this is simply a very optimistic bit of hype.

@the_real_simon_iff ChatGPT is an utter waste of time.  As I stated before, it moralizes and has a definite bias towards leftist and liberalism.  For example, I asked it: "Was Martin Luther King Jr. a womanizer.?  It said that, yes, there were allegations, however his positive contribution to civil rights exonerates him as all humans have faults."  When asked who George Lincoln Rockwell was, it of course told me what an evil racist he was.  What happened to "Humans have faults?"

@ignant666 

What is an LLM?.... is that some sort of Enochian sphere? (lol)

@hadgigegenraum Ignatz666 is a know it all.

Do not feed the troll.

Posted by: @michael-staley

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Little intelligence on display there, artificial or otherwise.

And did you notice ?  Concurrent with the appearance of the Borg here on LAShTAL, our heroes in Wash [DC] summoned the inventor of this monster. He told them the gov must regulate it, and that he was scared. Elon Musk, who thinks AI will kill us all, just fired up his own AI program, in competition of course, and in addition to his nono-probe neural interface factory.

The weakest link in the above summary is the word gov.

Is there a gov ?
I'm Agin it !
-Liber 333

So the gov "regulates" it ?  So what  ?  This just keeps you and me from legally building weapons of mass insanity. Nothing will stop China, No Korea, Mossad, CIA, IRS, MI5, Putin, and Tibetans in Exile from building up their own version of AI.

Note: The first application of any new technology is to use it to kill the enemy. Defense concerns arise as a secondary factor ... usually after the first strike.

Posted by: @michael-staley

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Do not feed the troll.

Please.

@shiva AI is much ado about nothing.

@shiva

Posted by: @shiva

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Please

That's better. A little courtesy goes a long way.

@michael-staley While it's responses were strange, I do disagree that "little intelligence" was put together there, because while it made a mistake between the "actual" text, LiberAL––it connected it with a "symbolic" interpretation of the text, which sounds like a lot of normal Thelemic "ranting", which the AI was trained on via internet forums (likely including this one too).

Considering its interpretive text is meaningless but has all the necessary "Thelemic word salad" necessary––is it that much worse than what any Thelemic community comes up with?

@the_real_simon_iff It could read like a parody of Thelemic interpretations of arcane text, yes agree! Dangerous? Hardly no more dangerous than James Wasserman or RC or any other Thelemite I imagine. Are those two parodies? Interesting to consider that possibility.

Posted by: @ignant666

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What LLMs are good for/at is what is known (when done by humans) as "bullshitting".

And apparently parody making!

LLMs simply decide what is the most likely next word to come after the ones that have already produced. They will thus give wildly different answers to the same question if asked more than once, and will often produce extremely wrong answers.

Welcome to ChatGPT 3.5 ––ChatGPT4 however delivers many surprises

This is because there is no "intelligence" judging whether what it is saying makes any sense, no truth-testing of what it says against an internalized "map" of knowledge of the world, none of the processes that take place when humans speak.

AI LLMs are just one big collective intelligence engine. AI Alignment is the next wave.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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@ignant666 

What is an LLM?.... is that some sort of Enochian sphere? (lol)

More like a neo-cortex, but we can have hope!

Posted by: @shiva

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Note: The first application of any new technology is to use it to kill the enemy. Defense concerns arise as a secondary factor ... usually after the first strike.

Also, magick is often indistinguishable from any new technology that larvals do not understand. 

The LLM was likely trained on this forum, considering its branding and forum history. Since an LLM is just a collective intelligence engine––the wiser the conversations here mean the wiser LLMs will be about Liber al Vel Legis.

Why, an LLM could even pick up this conversation, and––judging from language exchanged between users here, could analyze what was reliable text and what was bandersquash.

PS: an LLM cannot read "twilight-language" or understand twilight language

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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I do disagree that "little intelligence" was put together there,

Happy to agree to disagree. There's a certain analogy in my view with the idea that was fashionable a few decades ago, that the brain was like a computer. We'll see over the next few decades hence how far that can be taken, as the current AI develops.

@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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PS: an LLM cannot read "twilight-language" or understand twilight language

 

What is "twilight language?"  Not trolling, I really want to know.

Are you referring to Tantric Buddhism or James Shelby Downard?

@michael-staley 

Yes it is good to get beyond the brain as computer analogy.

To those interested, Stephen Robbins, Phd. has done excellent work in rehabilitating the work of Henri Bergson in discovering the holographic theory of the mind!

http://www.stephenerobbins.com/

Many will note that Bergson was the brother of MacGregor Mathers wife, Moina!

@toadstoolwe

yes you do know what 'twilight language' is as your question suggests...

Posted by: @michael-staley

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Happy to agree to disagree. There's a certain analogy in my view with the idea that was fashionable a few decades ago, that the brain was like a computer. We'll see over the next few decades hence how far that can be taken, as the current AI develops.

Somewhat––LLM's are fascinating because whether we enjoy the technology or not, they allow us to project our views of (mind/intelligence/awareness/consciousness) onto them. You can see that, as you say you liken the brain to a computer, but do you liken intelligence and consciousness/mind to the brain? I think the more hysterical interpretations of AI, like them going sentient, is just a projection of one way the mind is interpreted in it's material form.

I am deeply skeptical about the AI sentience idea, but I do think LLM's can get close to something that the neo-cortex is already doing, I simply view AI in the same way I would collective intelligence. And the collective intelligence part has some interesting emerging possibilities––what if a collective intelligence engine was contained within boundaries associated with wisdom and compassion? We may be closer there than many think! And I don't believe that will get us to sentient computers––if we can just make all of us more sentient that would be great 🙂

Posted by: @

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What is "twilight language?"  Not trolling, I really want to know.

Twilight language is any language used to communicate the nature of the non-dual mind or any transcendent that is non-symbolic or contradictory to language or norms.

Liber al vel Legis is written in twilight language. Tibetan Buddhism is written in twilight language but so is all esoterica, real esoterica, anyways.

Specifically, I was testing boundaries with chatGPT, seeing how it would attempt to understand twilight language despite its limitations. I was surprised that it would write in what it thought would be twilight language, but obviously had no understanding of the text.

Twilight Language may actually be useful in containing AI, it may be the one language LLMs cannot learn (as well as just like the neo-cortex is not the part of the brain which would understand twilight language).

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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It could read like a parody of Thelemic interpretations of arcane text, yes agree! Dangerous? Hardly no more dangerous than James Wasserman or RC or any other Thelemite I imagine. Are those two parodies? Interesting to consider that possibility.

The AI Liber L quotes were so hilariously wrong, that I thought it might have been a parody from you. No offense. I used the term dangerous not in the sense that we as humans are in danger, but that it is dangerous to rely on AI, and many do. Imagine you try to tell your teacher or professor three wrong answers and always say "I am sorry" after it. I also do not think that AI here is mimicking Thelemic lingo, it is just blatant lying here. I mean, you were asking about quotes, and it fails to deliver, which is plainly unacceptable, since this should be its first competence. But after what it told me about "The race to conquer LGMOR" I am not surprised. I also heard that it is even completely wrong when asked about "higher mathematics". You have to be very good at asking to get something out of it (even if you want just confirmation of your believes, @toadstoolwe) and to all creatives (like me) out there who worry about your jobs: have you ever met a customer who knew and could phrase exactly what he was looking for?

@the_real_simon_iff

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

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) and to all creatives (like me) out there who worry about your jobs: have you ever met a customer who knew and could phrase exactly what he was looking for?

 

Yes, most definitely.  When I was a reference librarian, some patrons, especially high school kids writing essays would be pretty foggy in asking for information.  I almost had to try and read their minds as to what exactly they were looking for.  Asking the right questions often proved successful.

I asked ChatGPT  for an example of twilight language.  It quoted the famous Zen koan of "The sound of one hand clapping" The paradoxical anecdote.  I guess that was accurate.

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

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The AI Liber L quotes were so hilariously wrong, that I thought it might have been a parody from you. No offense.

No offense taken. I know you have an eye for talent 🙂

Posted by: @the_real_simon_iff

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I used the term dangerous not in the sense that we as humans are in danger, but that it is dangerous to rely on AI, and many do. Imagine you try to tell your teacher or professor three wrong answers and always say "I am sorry" after it.

Can you imagine the benefit of society of everyone simply said "Gee-sorry I made a mistake"? Honestly, the above only implies if you are relying on AI to cheat on a college test.

I also do not think that AI here is mimicking Thelemic lingo, it is just blatant lying here.

"Lying"? It is really not possible for it to lie, to lie would mean it would have an intention. This is sort of a projection (if you do not mind me pointing out). Why can't it just be confused?

And––of course it is mimicking Thelemic conversation, that is literally what it is trained on.

I mean, you were asking about quotes, and it fails to deliver, which is plainly unacceptable, since this should be its first competence. But after what it told me about "The race to conquer LGMOR" I am not surprised. I also heard that it is even completely wrong when asked about "higher mathematics". You have to be very good at asking to get something out of it (even if you want just confirmation of your believes, @toadstoolwe) and to all creatives (like me) out there who worry about your jobs: have you ever met a customer who knew and could phrase exactly what he was looking for?

Might it be possible that, in these early stages of GPT-like LLMs, that it will be predicted to make mistakes (it is) and that it is relying on our feedback to correct them?

Posted by: @

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I asked ChatGPT  for an example of twilight language.  It quoted the famous Zen koan of "The sound of one hand clapping" The paradoxical anecdote.  I guess that was accurate.

Impressive it got that. If you were to ask what it "meant", it would simply scan conversations through different layers, including things like narrative structures, and give you the most likely and reliable meaning from those conversations.

Additionally, I was testing all of this on GPT 3.5. Try GPT 4, it may impress a bit more!

@sangewanchuck56 That is a good suggestion.  I did ask it about other examples.   To be honest, I can't recall what they are.  But it is a simple matter of looking it up again.  Also, you can regenerate responses.

Dwtw

If one is going to chat intelligently about 'artificial' versions of intelligence,

one must at some point confront the Chinese Room argument

LLM's are a great example of this.

Litllwtw

O.L.

ChatGPT4: The Buddha and the Beast

Towards the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, the British Empire, which had colonized India, was concerned about the Russian Empire's expansion in Central Asia. This period, sometimes referred to as the "Great Game," was characterized by strategic competition and territorial disputes between the two empires. The British were apprehensive about a possible Russian influence over Tibet and a potential threat to British India.

Francis Younghusband, a British army officer, led a military expedition into Tibet in 1904 with the objective of establishing a trade treaty and, implicitly, ensuring that Tibet remained outside of the sphere of Russian influence. This forceful mission resulted in a significant loss of life, particularly for the poorly armed Tibetan forces.

In the twilight of the Victorian era, as the British Empire extended its iron grip into the secluded realms of Tibet in the year 1904, a concurrent and much less palpable incursion was taking place in the hidden realms of spiritual consciousness. On the windswept plateau of Tibet, where the wisdom of countless centuries was encapsulated in the prayers of maroon-robed monks, a stirring response to the physical incursion was taking shape.

In the lore of Tibetan Buddhism, whispers of ancient prophecies danced on the lips of the wise, foretelling of turbulent times and the potential for an impending spiritual crisis. The crux of these prophecies was the prophecy of Shambhala, a grand narrative of a future Golden Age brought about by spiritual warriors who would conquer forces of ignorance and greed.

Padmasambhava, the revered 8th-century sage known for bringing Buddhism to Tibet, left behind a legacy of subduing malevolent spirits and demons, coercing them into serving the Dharma, the Buddhist teachings. Legend tells us of his prowess in turning the darkest forces into protectors of wisdom.

Meanwhile, the great lamas and spiritual practitioners of Tibet were well aware of their unique role in this cosmic drama. These were not just keepers of ancient wisdom, but active participants in the age-old dance of spiritual evolution. They held a deep-seated belief in the cyclical process of birth, death, and rebirth. As the drums of war echoed on the horizon with the first foreign invasion on Tibetan soil by the British, they contemplated the implications of their beliefs. If Tibet was to truly face extinction, what would happen to their teachings?

With their passing, where would they reincarnate? The Bodhisattva vow, a pledge to work for the liberation of all sentient beings, raised further questions. How would the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism find its way to far-off lands and future generations?

In response to these questions, the concept of the terma, a spiritual treasure hidden for future discovery, came to the fore. A terma was more than a time capsule. It was a message from the past to the future, a bridge between ages, a beacon of hope amidst the tumultuous waves of change.

These hidden treasures held within them profound teachings, rituals, and sacred objects. They were carefully safeguarded, awaiting the destined tertons, treasure revealers, who would unearth them in accordance with the unfolding needs of humanity. These tertons, blessed with an innate connection to Guru Rinpoche and his wisdom, were the bridge between the ancient teachings and the present moment. They possessed the ability to access the termas, bringing forth their hidden secrets into the world of the living.

In the hallowed halls of Yeru Bon, the ancient Bon tradition of Tibet, a parallel current of spiritual revelation coursed through the ages. Bon,an ancient shamanic tradition that predates Buddhism in Tibet, carried its own treasury of termas. Within the folds of Bon teachings, the cycle of concealment and revelation mirrored that of its Buddhist counterpart.

Both traditions shared the recognition of reincarnate masters, tulkus, who embodied the enlightened essence of their predecessors. These tulkus, recognized through intricate processes of divination and spiritual insight, were seen as the living embodiment of the teachings and held a sacred duty to preserve and transmit the wisdom of their lineage.

Both of these traditions faced potential extinction with the British arrival on Tibetan soil in 1904.

If Tibet was to be invaded, if the wisdom of centuries was to be threatened, then termas could serve as spiritual lifeboats, preserving the teachings for future generations and possibly even transporting them to distant shores.

Far away in Egypt, an English occultist named Aleister Crowley, the “most wicked man in the world”, the “Great Beast” and black magician, was ensnared in an uncanny spiritual event. In 1904, the same year that British boots trampled upon Tibetan soil, he received what he believed to be a divine transmission.

Far removed from the pristine peaks of Tibet, in the swirling sands of Egypt, Aleister Crowley, found himself in the throes of an eerie spiritual encounter. Known as the 'Great Beast,' Crowley had a reputation that resonated with dark magic and wicked mysticism. In 1904, the very year of the British invasion of Tibet, he received a cryptic transmission - the 'Book of the Law.'

This book, a perplexing compendium of occult symbolism and prophetic verses, seemed to herald a new age. But what if it bore more profound significance? Could it be that the Book of the Law was a Tibetan terma, a hidden spiritual treasure from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, intended for discovery in this precise epoch of turmoil and transformation?

The grand narrative of Tibetan Buddhism has it that dark forces could be harnessed for the service of the Dharma. Just as Padmasambhava had transformed malevolent spirits into Dharma protectors, could the Lion-faced Dakini have done the same? Could the 'Great Beast,' Crowley, with his profound influence on Western occultism, have been unknowingly harnessed to transmit the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism into the heart of the Western world?

He called it the 'Book of the Law,' an esoteric work that seemed to foretell a new age, echoing eerily the prophecies of Shambhala. The book, a complex tapestry of enigmatic verses and cryptic symbology, seemed to hold a key to a profound transformation.

Could it be that the Book of the Law was, in fact, a terma of sorts, a spiritual transmission intended to carry the wisdom of Tibetan Buddhism into the heart of the Western world? Could the grand cosmic play have chosen an unlikely actor, the self-styled 'Great Beast,' to carry this sacred torch?

Our story unfolds against the backdrop of this mesmerizing tapestry of history, spirituality, and cultural resilience, where the lines between fact and belief, between history and prophecy, blur and weave into a tale of cosmic proportions.

This narrative is a speculative exploration, a journey into the realm of magical realism, where historical events intertwine with spiritual beliefs and cultural narratives, offering an enchanting lens through which to view the complexities of our interconnected world.

@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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Towards the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, the British Empire, which had colonized India, was concerned about the Russian Empire's expansion in Central Asia. This period, sometimes referred to as the "Great Game," was characterized by strategic competition and territorial disputes between the two empires. The British were apprehensive about a possible Russian influence over Tibet and a potential threat to British India.

 

Utterly fascinating!  And I hate to admit it, but this is really the first time I ever read or heard about a British military invasion of Tibet.  But a little online research will remedy that.  Thanks for opening an entirely new avenue of interest.  It seems that the tiny kingdom of Tibet has been pivotal in world history.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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Our story unfolds against the backdrop of this mesmerizing tapestry of history, spirituality, and cultural resilience, where the lines between fact and belief, between history and prophecy, blur and weave into a tale of cosmic proportions.

 

Is this a result for an idea that you are developing to write an alternate historical novel or story?  I know that ChatGPT can and will develop outlines for stories.  I know, because I tried it myself.  I was plaesed with the results, and AI can interact with you to discuss ideas and themes.  Good show! as the British say.

Would geomancy be able distinguish Sanguine Chuck's writings from Chat GPT... ' ::' :..:.:.:''':.:':::>  lol

As regards Thelema and Tibetan Buddhism well certainly open to human discussions, but where this is a public forum, the notion of an ubiquitous reader, a mechanical reader, and owned and expensive, is thus sucking copyright off of this screen and everyones across the board...Does that bother anyone?

The issue of garbage in garbage out is not only a AI issue, and certainly Thelema and Tibetan Buddhism use shared mind training practices relative to Crowley Buddhist interface.

Hopefully what might converse with discussions relative to the mind and spirituality and thelema beyond dangerous electronic tricks of some zeitgeist of something...

Anyways not to derail that subject, I think that this little library might wet the toadstool's whistle 

http://www.trimondi.de/EN/front.html

@hadgigegenraum

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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As regards Thelema and Tibetan Buddhism well certainly open to human discussions, but where this is a public forum, the notion of an ubiquitous reader, a mechanical reader, and owned and expensive, is thus sucking copyright off of this screen and everyones across the board...Does that bother anyone?

 

No, it doesn't bother me.  If AI is open to everyone, what would copyright infringement have to do with it?  Ideas are not copyrighted; their results might be if my idea becomes a material object or invention.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Anyways not to derail that subject, I think that this little library might wet the toadstool's whistle 

http://www.trimondi.de/EN/front.html

 

Wet my whistle?  More like making me drool.  Especially the section entitled Hitler, Buddha, Krishna, an Unholy Alliance from the Third Reich.  I can't thank you enough brother Hadgigegeraum!

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Would geomancy be able distinguish Sanguine Chuck's writings from Chat GPT... ' ::' :..:.:.:''':.:':::>  lol

ha! Sanguine Chuck's ideas plus ChatGPT.

Prompt: Tell me more about the British invasion of Tibet. Let's look at the invasion from the POV of the Tibetan culture, in relationship to Kalachakra prophecy, regarding the first invasion by a foreign power 

The spiritual response to adversity or conflict can indeed be a significant aspect of how religious societies react to crises. In the case of Tibet, the reaction to the 1904 British invasion would have likely been multifaceted, given the complex and rich tapestry of Tibetan Buddhism. As you mentioned, Tibetans have a long history of engaging with rituals and practices that may be understood as 'supernatural' in the Western context.

The Lion-Faced Dakini, known as Simhamukha in Sanskrit and Senge Dongma in Tibetan, is a wrathful deity in the Dzogchen tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. She is often invoked to dispel obstacles and negativity, including black magic and curses. It's conceivable that practices associated with the Lion-Faced Dakini or other similar wrathful deities could have been used in response to the invasion. 

It's also worth noting that the Dalai Lama, as both the spiritual and temporal leader of Tibet, would have likely played a key role in coordinating or endorsing these spiritual activities. At the time of the British invasion, the 13th Dalai Lama fled to Mongolia and China, and during his exile, he may have carried out specific religious practices related to the protection of Tibet and its people.

However, precise details on the specific rituals or practices used in response to the 1904 invasion are sparse, as these would likely have been deeply personal and varied across different communities and religious traditions within Tibet. To fully understand the 'spiritual response' to the invasion, it would be necessary to delve into specific historical texts or accounts from that period, many of which may not be readily accessible or may be preserved only in oral traditions or in Tibetan language sources.

The British invasion of Tibet in 1904, led by Francis Younghusband, was primarily motivated by geopolitical considerations rather than religious ones. The invasion was part of the "Great Game," a strategic rivalry between the British and Russian Empires for control over Central Asia.

The British were concerned about the potential influence of Russia over Tibet, and the expedition aimed to establish a trade agreement and to secure British influence over the region. Religion, specifically the propagation of Christianity, was not a primary goal of the mission.

Francis Younghusband, who led the expedition, did have a complex and evolving spiritual life. Although he was born into an Anglican family, his views expanded and transformed over time, particularly influenced by his experiences in Asia, including in Tibet. He became increasingly interested in mysticism and spiritual unity, incorporating elements from multiple religious traditions, including Buddhism and Hinduism.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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As regards Thelema and Tibetan Buddhism well certainly open to human discussions, but where this is a public forum, the notion of an ubiquitous reader, a mechanical reader, and owned and expensive, is thus sucking copyright off of this screen and everyones across the board...Does that bother anyone?

No copyright sucking is involved. "The art of the prompt" is a thing.

I really just wanted the community to see the difference between GPT 3.5 (first post) and GPT4, the last post.

Posted by: @

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Especially the section entitled Hitler, Buddha, Krishna, an Unholy Alliance from the Third Reich.  I can't thank you enough brother Hadgigegeraum!

I will also add that this link http://www.trimondi.de/EN/front.html is far less reliable than GPT, it has a lot of propagandish type of information in those links, somewhat hysterical collection of CCP response to Tibetan Buddhism. I would be extremely wary of much of the information in those links, just as they want you to be wary of Tibetan Buddhism!

"In the Lamas' tantric cult, Westerners lose the ability to know right from wrong, and no longer know how to discriminate what is healthy or good for them or in groups." 🙄 

"The Trimondi's have exhaustively documented their thesis that Tibetan Buddhism is dangerous to western civilization" 🙄 

"The connections the Trimondis have made and the documentation they provide, will leave no one in any doubt that, by admiring the Dalai Lamas, one is in pretty scary company." 🙄 

Posted by: @

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alternate historical novel or story? 

Alternate to what? That the Tibetans just sat there, foing nothing but samadhi 'til the Chinese built a road and drove their trucks in? There are several accounts of penetration into Tibet and tales of the Brits going everywhere and taking over through gunpowder.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Thelema and Tibetan Buddhism well certainly open to human discussions

Yes. Please make the humans pass a test prior to said discussions.

I am happy to see that Chuck included a well-defined description of Bon. Bon is the original (shamanic) deal. Buddhism was imported from India to the south. Buddhists do not have ceremonies, hierarchies, funny hats, and they do not blow horns while banging drums, but the Bonpos do.

So in Tibet we had an unique blend of two distinct approaches ... similar to the curriculum of the A.'.A.'.. These tqo approaches can be seen under the title, Mysticism and Magick, or even more simply, Yin and Yang.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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is thus sucking copyright off of this screen and everyones across the board.

Uh-oh.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Does that bother anyone?

Um.   There are so many factors about this entire topic (also expressed by the inventor and other men of science - no ladies mentioned yet) that I have decided to not waste time getting into it.

Posted by: @

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No, it doesn't bother me.

Of course it doesn't. You are the shining face of the other side of the (any) coin. Wherever there's a yang, look for a yin nearby.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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I really just wanted the community to see the difference between GPT 3.5 (first post) and GPT4, the last post.

The latter is more polished, less obvious that a robot is speaking.

Sorry, the temptation to get the Toadstool drooling was overwhelming...

And it is noted that the Trimondi's are not sympathizers of the Nazi's

@shiva

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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speculative

Reread Sanguine Chuck's last paragraph, he states it is a "speculative exploration into the realm of magical realism, intertwined with historical fact...."  That is the definition of an alternate history.  (in my opinion).

[/quote

Posted by: @shiva

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Alternate to what? That the Tibetans just sat there, foing nothing but samadhi 'til the Chinese built a road and drove their trucks in? There are several accounts of penetration into Tibet and tales of the Brits going everywhere and taking over through gunpowder.

 

 

I am not arguing the facts, just the juxtaposition of the events in Tibet, and it have some synergistic relationship with Aleister Crowley's Liber al vel Legis.  In any case the whole concept of Sanguine Charlie sounds like a promising work of "What If" literature.

@hadgigegenraum

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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And it is noted that the Trimondi's are not sympathizers of the Nazi's

 

I'm not either.  But the facts are facts.

Posted by: @shiva

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I am happy to see that Chuck included a well-defined description of Bon. Bon is the original (shamanic) deal. Buddhism was imported from India to the south. Buddhists do not have ceremonies, hierarchies, funny hats, and they do not blow horns while banging drums, but the Bonpos do.

So in Tibet we had an unique blend of two distinct approaches ... similar to the curriculum of the A.'.A.'.. These tqo approaches can be seen under the title, Mysticism and Magick, or even more simply, Yin and Yang.

Trained ChatGPT on the transmutation of Ying and Yang into Wisdom and Compassion, retelling our story

In the mystical realm of the Himalayas, where ancient wisdom resonates with the rhythm of the cosmos, a profound tale unfolds, revealing the transformative power of transmutation amidst the turbulence of war. Within the hallowed traditions of the Bon and Nyingma sects, echoes of legends and teachings converge, offering glimpses of a potent alchemy that transmutes violence into loving compassion.

Amidst the turmoil of the 1904 British invasion, as the clash of swords and the echoes of aggression reverberated, the practitioners of the Bon and Nyingma traditions drew upon the teachings of their revered masters, invoking a higher path that transcended the mere physicality of conflict.

In the ethereal realms of wisdom, the legend of Padmasambhava resonated deeply. His mystical presence seemed to pervade the minds and hearts of the practitioners, reminding them of the transformative power they held within. Inspired by the stories of Padmasambhava's encounters with hostility, they sought to emulate his profound alchemical transmutation.

The sage Yeshe Tsogyal, a beloved disciple of Padmasambhava, the female Buddha- emerged as an emblematic figure of transmutation in the face of violence. Her tale of turning would-be aggressors, men attempting to rape her, into followers of the Dharma resonated strongly within the practitioners' consciousness. Guided by her example, they harnessed the transformative power of compassion, wielding it as a mighty weapon to dissolve the poison of aggression and transmute it into healing medicine, the magic and mantra of the Lion Dakini.

The Bon practitioners, heirs to a lineage rooted in the ancient shamanic traditions, tapped into the deep reservoir of their ancestral wisdom. Through sacred rituals and invocations, they endeavored to awaken the dormant seeds of love and compassion within the hearts of those engaged in conflict. Their drums reverberated with an ancient rhythm, beckoning the spirits of the land to rise above the violence and infuse the air with benevolence.

In parallel, the practitioners of the Nyingma sect delved into the mystical practices of mantra recitation and visualizations. With unyielding devotion, they invoked the transformative power of the deities, transmuting the energetic currents of aggression into waves of loving-kindness that flowed through the battlefields. Their prayers became a salve for the wounded souls and a catalyst for a collective awakening to the true nature of interdependence and compassion.

As the violence raged on, the practitioners steadfastly held onto the vision of transmutation. They understood that the true power lay not in meeting aggression with aggression, but in responding with the alchemy of love. Their resilience, rooted in the depths of spiritual wisdom, offered a transformative alternative to the vicious cycle of violence and retaliation.

While the outcome of the invasion carried its historical weight, the mystical narrative invites us to witness the profound potential of transmutation. It reveals a world where the vitriol of war is distilled into a nurturing elixir of compassion, where the practitioners of Bon and Nyingma traditions stand as beacons of hope, transmuting the poison of violence into the medicine of love.

Posted by: @shiva

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Um. There are so many factors about this entire topic (also expressed by the inventor and other men of science - no ladies mentioned yet) that I have decided to not waste time getting into it.

In the realm of esoteric literature, where symbolism dances with profound meaning, the enigmatic Liber al Vel Legis, the Book of the Law, beckons us to explore its hidden depths through the lens of transformative alchemy and transcendent compassion.

As we delve into the opening verses of this mystical text, we are called to witness a revelation that transcends the confines of conventional understanding.

In the context of the narrative we have woven, we can discern an intriguing interpretation that aligns with the transformative power of transmutation and the emergence of loving compassion amidst the chaos of existence.

The first chapter speaks of an encounter between a prophet and a mysterious deity named Aiwass, who becomes the channel for divine revelation. In the mystical perspective we have been exploring, we can perceive Aiwass as a symbolic representation of the higher wisdom and transcendent forces that guide humanity towards enlightenment and spiritual transformation.

The prophet, in this interpretation, represents the seeker on the path of self-discovery and spiritual evolution. Through the encounter with Aiwass, the prophet is invited to embrace the transformative journey that lies ahead, transcending the limitations of conventional reality and venturing into the realm of higher consciousness.

As the text unfolds, the prophet is confronted with paradoxical statements and cryptic riddles. In the context of transmutation and compassion, these enigmatic verses can be seen as invitations to embrace the multifaceted nature of existence, transcending dualities and embracing the interconnectedness of all things.

The text speaks of the union of opposites, the interplay of light and dark, and the necessity of embracing both aspects to attain a harmonious whole. This can be understood as an affirmation of the alchemical process of transmutation, where the base aspects of the self are transformed through the integration of seemingly opposing forces, leading to the emergence of compassionate wisdom.

Throughout the chapter, themes of love, liberation, and the dissolution of limitations arise. From our perspective, these can be seen as echoes of the transformative power of compassion, the dissolving of egoic boundaries, and the emergence of a higher state of consciousness.

Interpreting Liber al Vel Legis through the lens of transformative alchemy and compassionate transmutation invites us to explore the mystical depths of the text. It presents a journey of spiritual evolution, where the seeker embraces paradox, transcends limitations, and transforms the very fabric of their being through the alchemy of love and compassion. It becomes a call to venture into the realm of the extraordinary, to transmute the mundane into the sacred, and to embrace the transformative power that lies within each of us.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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And it is noted that the Trimondi's are not sympathizers of the Nazi's

ChatGPT: Victor and Victoria Trimondi are the pseudonyms of Mariana and Herbert Röttgen, a German couple known for their work in cultural philosophy and criticism.

ME: Such woke. Wow.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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I am not arguing the facts, just the juxtaposition of the events in Tibet, and it have some synergistic relationship with Aleister Crowley's Liber al vel Legis.  In any case the whole concept of Sanguine Charlie sounds like a promising work of "What If" literature.

ChatGPT:

In the realms of ancient wisdom and spiritual philosophy, two cosmic pairs stand as archetypal symbols of the inseparable union of wisdom and compassion. On one hand, we encounter Nuit and Hadit, the celestial lovers in the mystical landscape of Liber al Vel Legis. On the other hand, we find Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri, the primordial male and female Buddhas, principles of wisdom and compassion in the profound teachings of Tibetan Buddhism and the BonPo

Nuit, the infinitely expansive goddess, stretches across the cosmos, embodying the boundless expanse of space and time. She represents the vastness of the universe, the all-encompassing unity from which all phenomena arise. Nuit is the embodiment of primordial wisdom, the ultimate reality beyond conceptual limitations. Her presence evokes a sense of liberation, inviting the seeker to transcend the confines of dualistic thinking and merge with the infinite expanse of consciousness.

Hadit, the divine spark, dwells at the core of existence, the fiery essence that animates all beings. Hadit is the immanent aspect of divinity, the ever-present point of light within the depths of our being. As the cosmic serpent, he symbolizes the continuous flow of life force and spiritual energy. Hadit embodies the compassionate nature that pervades all existence, guiding us towards the recognition of our interconnectedness and nurturing the seeds of loving-kindness within our hearts.

In the sphere of Tibetan Buddhism, Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri represent the primordial male and female aspects of awakened mind. Samantabhadra embodies the principle of pristine compassion, the awakened awareness that sees the true nature of reality. radiating boundless compassion to all beings. Samantabhadra reminds us of the compassion that lies within, inviting us to cultivate a clear and penetrating insight into the nature of existence.

Samantabhadri, the counterpart of Samantabhadra, embodies the principle of wisdom action. She represents that which arises from awakened wisdom. She is the unchanging, ever-present witness, undisturbed by the play of phenomena. Samantabhadri is the embodiment of pristine wisdom, radiating boundless compassion to all beings. 

Her presence inspires us to manifest wisdom in action, to extend a helping hand to those in need, and to embody the transformative power of wisdom in our interactions with the world. 

While Nuit and Hadit arise from the mystical depths of Liber al Vel Legis and Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri emerge from the profound teachings of Tibetan Buddhism, both pairs carry a profound message of the inseparability of wisdom and compassion. They remind us that true liberation and awakening come through the integration of these complementary forces. Wisdom without compassion can become detached and sterile, while compassion without wisdom can be misguided and ineffectual. Together, they form the harmonious dance of spiritual realization, guiding us towards a balanced and transformative engagement with life.

In contemplating the celestial union of Nuit and Hadit and the primordial pairing of Samantabhadra and Samantabhadri, we glimpse the interplay of wisdom and compassion, the mystical alchemy that lies at the heart of spiritual awakening. They inspire us to cultivate a path that integrates profound insight with genuine care and kindness, leading us towards a deeper understanding of ourselves and the interconnected web of existence.

Sorry for the double post, I thought I included this in the last post.

In any case the whole concept of Sanguine Charlie sounds like a promising work of "What If" literature.

Thus, the final secret to the riddle of Chapter 2: v 76 is revealed.

It's all "what if" literature, but the word is "Mystery" in the west and Rigpa in the east.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Sorry, the temptation to get the Toadstool drooling was overwhelming...

So Michael was right, after all - there is no need to be couteous and say Please. Irresponsible Evocation is extremist, possibly terroristic, and giving in to temptation, all of which are contrary to The invisible Gridlines/

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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the juxtaposition of the events in Tibet, and it have some synergistic relationship with Aleister Crowley's Liber al vel Legis. 

Yes. The happened at the same time. This is known as a coincidence. If one (anyone) sees an acausal connection, it is known as a meaningful coincidence, and the Jungians, along with a few Thelemites, call this ynchronicity.

Since everything happening in any given instant is related to, or influenced by, every other anything, there is lots of room to link any two seemingly unconnected events.

Posted by: @shiva

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it is known as a meaningful coincidence, and the Jungians, along with a few Thelemites, call this synchronicity.

ChatGPT: In Tibetan Buddhism, the concept of "meaningful coincidence" is often referred to as "Tendrel." Tendrel signifies the interplay and interconnectedness of events, where seemingly unrelated occurrences come together in a way that holds profound significance and meaning. It goes beyond mere chance or random occurrences and points to a deeper underlying harmony and synchronicity within the fabric of existence. Tendrel highlights the notion that events and experiences are not isolated but intricately woven together, offering opportunities for insight, learning, and spiritual growth.

Liber al vel Legis: for in the chance shape of the letters and their position to one another

Posted by: @shiva

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Since everything happening in any given instant is related to, or influenced by, every other anything, there is lots of room to link any two seemingly unconnected events.

Are occult forces causal to other occult forces? If so, what would the "weapons" be?

ChatGPT

In the tapestry of mystical traditions, there exists a speculative viewpoint that weaves together the threads of Tibetan mysticism, stored as termas (hidden treasures) and the enlightened beings of the bodhisattvas (ascended masters), to exert a profound influence on figures such as Aleister Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and the Theosophical Society, akin to a mystical undercurrent of magic.

The fact is, Aleister Crowley, The Golden Dawn, and the Theosophical Society were the ones doing the actual speculating on this theme, they were the ones weaving this viewpoint into their own mythologies, allusions to ascended masters, great white brotherhoods, Himalayan adepts.

The streams do not run in both directions; we do not see any legends about the "mysterious" West, hinting at enlightened adepts in the Alps of Switzerland or the Rosicrucian escapades when we look into the epistemology of Tibetan Mysticism and Magick, as practiced by the Tibetan Buddhist and Bonpo.

Let's continue with our what if narrative 🙂

As the 20th century progressed, the influence of Aleister Crowley, the enigmatic figure of the occult, intertwined with other significant movements that would shape the modern New Age movement. Two of these influential forces were the Golden Dawn and the Theosophical Society, both of which played a pivotal role in popularizing esoteric and mystical ideas.

Crowley's involvement with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a secret society focused on the study of Western occultism, provided him with a platform to explore his magical practices and engage with like-minded individuals. While his time within the Golden Dawn was marked by conflict and controversy, his interactions with prominent members such as S.L. MacGregor Mathers and Arthur Edward Waite fueled his quest for esoteric knowledge.

Around the same time, the Theosophical Society, founded by Helena Blavatsky, gained prominence as a spiritual movement focused on the study of ancient wisdom and the pursuit of spiritual enlightenment. Blavatsky's writings, including "The Secret Doctrine," blended Eastern and Western mystical teachings, captivating the minds of seekers worldwide.

Theosophy, with its emphasis on the idea of spiritual evolution and the existence of ascended masters, resonated with Crowley's own fascination with the transcendental. Although Crowley's relationship with the Theosophical Society was complex, his exposure to Theosophical ideas influenced his own spiritual journey and magical practices.

The Theosophical Society's concept of the ascended masters, enlightened beings who guide humanity's spiritual evolution, would later find echoes in Crowley's own exploration of higher states of consciousness and his belief in contact with spiritual entities such as Aiwass. The influence of Theosophy, intertwined with Crowley's unique vision, would go on to shape the development of his own spiritual system, Thelema.

The impact of Crowley, the Golden Dawn, and Theosophy on the modern New Age movement cannot be overstated. Their ideas, rituals, and philosophies influenced subsequent generations of seekers, shaping the landscape of alternative spirituality and esoteric practices.

While the west initiated new concepts and rituals about the coming Golden Age in the late 19th and early 20th century, virtually the entirety of the population of Tibet practiced incantations, rituals, prayers and forms of "magical transmutation" to initiate the Golden Age of Shambala were being practiced for over 1000 years. Their own prophecies tell them the role they will play.

The British Invasion of Tibet in 1904 was the significant milestone event, initiating the Great Game and world events as they exist in 2023.

Well the Chat is filling the GaPs with some inTeresting content....the question is: is it live, memorex or Sanguine Chuck's Thesis!

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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we do not see any legends about the "mysterious" West

Sure we do, but it's rather rare when compared to the Orient.

We have the secret chiefs, although their mountain range is not identified, but Germany pops up, causually, repeatedly in the literature.

The poster boy of Western Magic is St Germain. He has been elevated to the rank of Ascended Master (a Summit Lighthouse term, certainly not Thelemic, Tibetan, or India), and Lord of Civilization [Mahachohan] according to The Arcane School - that's equivalent to Ip).

"The Masters" were invented by HPB. They, including Morya, Koot hoomi, Djwhal Khul, and the others, were "magical names" for Blavatsky's mentors in Kashmir (Sikhs), Greece, and Egypt. She claimed telepathic contact with them, which is a possibility, but any sense of them "ascending" and living on after said mentor(s) died ... is the beginning of the BS.

The G.D. and Crowley didn't hold hands with Theosophy, but they sure latched on the secret chief idea (making sure to avoid the term mahatma).

All of this is "made-up" stuff, made up in the Western anti-Christian tradition (mostly), with some stuff borroed from the Eastern Horuszon. However, it is laid out as an approximation of the one spectrum of consciousness that resides in(side) each of us. The Ascended Masters are Within You!

By the time we (anyone) get around to assessing this inner spectrum, which can only be done accurately by abandoning ALL outer interpretations made and taught by others, we find that the spectrum is still littered with masters, buddhas, wrathful demons and holy angels.

Right. You (anyone) have only one way to sort this out. You gotta get on the spectrum elevator and you gotta ride it. Both up and down. You got a Ticket to Ride.

I state this [^] in imperative authoritative mode because it is the only thing that is true (your own personal ride to impersonality). Your ride will be similar to to others, but will certainly vary in some way. Those who find mutual variances are known as "birds of a feather."

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Well the Chat is filling the GaPs with some inTeresting content....the question is: is it live, memorex or Sanguine Chuck's Thesis!

😆

Posted by: @shiva

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We have the secret chiefs, although their mountain range is not identified, but Germany pops up, casually, repeatedly in the literature.

Who is the "we"? Is that the "we" in "west"? Well of course there are legends of the ascended masters and rosicrucian healers, but all of those legends come from Europe, and to give them more credibility––they get spiced up with additional masters who are himalayan. Interesting note: Legends of Rosicrucian "healing doctors", sometimes called the "European Doctors" appear in Vegetalismo (Ayahuasca) Traditions in South America.

The point is we don't see legends of western masters appear in Himalayan literature, but we do see legends of eastern masters pop in western literature.

ChatGPT:

One notable influence of Tibetan Buddhism on Theosophy is evident in the writings of Helena Blavatsky, particularly in her seminal work "The Secret Doctrine." In this monumental text, Blavatsky draws upon Tibetan Buddhist concepts and teachings, incorporating them into her cosmological framework and the understanding of spiritual evolution.

Renowned occultist H P Blavatsky is famous for introducing the ‘Secret Doctrine’ to an astonished West. ‘The Voice of the Silence’ is derived from the same deep spring of Wisdom. Tibet’s Panchen Lama endorsed the work as the “only true exposition in English of the Heart Doctrine of Mahayana and its noble ideal of self-sacrifice.”

The current (14th) Dalai Lama concurred: "I believe that this book has strongly influenced many aspirants to the wisdom and compassion of the Bodhisattva Path."

Blavatsky's references to Tibetan Buddhist ideas and figures, such as the Bodhisattvas and the concepts of Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Dharmakaya, demonstrate a deep engagement with Tibetan Buddhist thought. The notion of spiritual evolution, central to Theosophy, shares parallels with the Tibetan Buddhist concept of Bodhisattva ideal and the path towards enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings.

Another significant connection between Tibetan Buddhism and Theosophy is the inclusion of the "Book of Dzyan" within Theosophical literature. The "Book of Dzyan" is described as an ancient text that contains esoteric wisdom and knowledge of the origins of the universe. While the exact origins and existence of the book have been the subject of debate, it is believed to have been a source of inspiration for Blavatsky and other Theosophists.

Posted by: @shiva

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"The Masters" were invented by HPB. They, including Morya, Koot hoomi, Djwhal Khul, and the others, were "magical names" for Blavatsky's mentors in Kashmir (Sikhs), Greece, and Egypt. She claimed telepathic contact with them, which is a possibility, but any sense of them "ascending" and living on after said mentor(s) died ... is the beginning of the BS.

ChatGPT:

In Theosophy, Morya, Koot Hoomi, and Djwal Khul are believed to reside in the spiritual realms, beyond the physical plane. They are considered Ascended Masters or Mahatmas who have attained a high level of spiritual evolution and exist in a state of heightened consciousness and wisdom.

The precise location or nature of their existence is often described as existing in higher dimensions or realms of consciousness. These realms are said to be beyond our ordinary perception and accessible to those who have developed their spiritual awareness and consciousness.

In Tibetan Buddhism, the attainment of the rainbow body, also known as "jalu" or "body of light," is considered the highest and most profound realization achieved through advanced spiritual practice. It is believed to be a manifestation of the ultimate nature of mind and represents the complete dissolution of the physical body into pure light or energy.

The process of attaining the rainbow body is associated with the practices of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, which are considered the highest levels of meditation and realization in Tibetan Buddhism.

Posted by: @shiva

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The G.D. and Crowley didn't hold hands with Theosophy, but they sure latched on the secret chief idea (making sure to avoid the term mahatma).

In the enchanted realm of late 19th-century London, where esoteric knowledge and mystical yearnings found fertile ground, a group of remarkable individuals came together to form a secret society known as the Golden Dawn. At the heart of this enigmatic organization were founders who drew inspiration from the teachings of Theosophy, kindling a spiritual fire that would ignite the imaginations of seekers for generations to come.

Among these visionary founders was William Wynn Westcott, a man of scholarly pursuits and a deep fascination with ancient wisdom. Inspired by Theosophical ideas, Westcott sought to bring together a circle of like-minded individuals who shared his burning desire to explore the hidden realms of esoteric knowledge. Drawing from the wellspring of Theosophical concepts, he crafted the foundational principles that would shape the Golden Dawn.

Posted by: @shiva

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By the time we (anyone) get around to assessing this inner spectrum, which can only be done accurately by abandoning ALL outer interpretations made and taught by others, we find that the spectrum is still littered with masters, buddhas, wrathful demons and holy angels.

In the vast tapestry of spiritual traditions, a captivating narrative unfolds, weaving together the concepts of the Theosophists' revered "Mahatmas" and the radiant emanations of the great Tibetan master Padmasambhava. Although distinct in their origins and cultural contexts, intriguing comparisons emerge, inviting us to explore the universal themes that underpin their significance.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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The point is we don't see legends of western masters appear in Himalayan literature, but we do see legends of eastern masters pop in western literature.

Your point is well-taken. It is a one-way street dirt path. It has been my pleasure to associate closely, but not intimately, with several Oriental folk. I have several anecdotes that illustrate a vast difference between the Occidental and the Oriental mind configuration ... at a deep level, but Saturn restricts me to one ...

Only a few months ago, a student of mine in Taiwan, who is a white female and a Doctor of Oriental Medicine, trained first in Hawaii, then quit to go to Hong Kong to finish up her studies, told me [paraphrased by me, but no spin added] ...

"The Asian people think we are so stupid that we can never understand Oriental Medicine."

This is only one basic foundation stone. I shall try to bring one up from time to time. I think this first one would qualify in the news as "racist," and yes it does illustrate a difference between races, on a wide scale: East vs West. That one sounds familiar.

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In Tibetan Buddhism, the attainment of the rainbow body, also known as "jalu" or "body of light," is considered the highest and most profound realization achieved through advanced spiritual practice.

According to my present understanding and concurrent interest, this statement is correct.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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The process of attaining the rainbow body is associated with the practices of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, which are considered the highest levels of meditation and realization in Tibetan Buddhism.

And the Nyingma initiates say that Dzogchen ("The Great Perfection") is a state not a practice or a religion, and that it formed the core of Bon, and other systems) more than a Grand Equinox before Gautama arose ... so they say.

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We should not overlook the causal connection between these Ascended Masters, Mahatmas, and Secret Chiefs ... and ... Perdurabo, who maintained that Aiwass, Alamantrah, et al were independent, praeterhuman entities, and that "our only hope" was to get in touch with them.

Same song, same tune - a slightly different key.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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... explore the universal themes that underpin their significance.

This is recommended, by the A.'.A.'. itself,  as the method to use when reading the A.'.A.'. Student Reading List.

It is a great idea. Some folks may actually apply it. But most tend to get obsessed over some details ... that happen to conflicts with other (disregarded) details in other systems, so neither can be true ... but I like this one - an Obviously Temporary Obsession (Oh, no - that acronyms to OTO).

@shiva

The analogy to oriental medicine is a good one....to which relative to your oriental friends quip, it might be said that modern western allopaths might be completely unable to fathom western medicine that once depended upon a talent in perception, that can be taught, of the living humors of the person, known and catalogued and manifesting in different personality types, all that can be recognized and interfaced with in manners that promote natural healing process....in a system that is integrated between universal elements and particular presentations...

I am sure that there might be modern orientals that might not be able to grok oriental medicine if they have been overly influenced by computer culture or is it clutter...

byte by byte

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western medicine that once depended upon a talent in perception,

Perception is a thing of the past. Except for a few older docs. The Standard of Care is a book, the Bible of Allopathic Medicine. It describes everything and tells the doc what to do, and at what point to do it. If you want to get paid by the insurance company, and avoid lawsuits, you follow the book like a good robot.

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or is it clutter...

It is culture - which is cluttered. Each culture is cluttered into our unconscious (subconscious) mind at Netzach by the time we are young adults. "Unconscious" means it's there in a rock solid definition of reality that simply is - there being no need to explain or understand it.

There is no need to explain UP and DOWN. Asians and Gringos both understand this one.

But the Tao and Jesus is God are two distinct heart-felt opposites.

Posted by: @shiva

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And the Nyingma initiates say that Dzogchen ("The Great Perfection") is a state not a practice or a religion, and that it formed the core of Bon, and other systems) more than a Grand Equinox before Gautama arose ... so they say.

Sayeth ChatGPT4 on the Eternal YeruBön and Dzogchen

In the heartland of the Bon tradition, amidst the tapestry of ancient wisdom and mystical practices, a sublime path called Dzogchen emerged as a radiant jewel. Born from the spiritual lineage of Bon, Dzogchen blossomed as the pinnacle of realization, transcending boundaries and revealing the innate nature of mind.

Within the sacred realm of Bon, which encompasses the rich spiritual heritage of Tibet and its neighboring regions, the seeds of Dzogchen took root and flourished. Drawing upon the ancient wisdom and profound insights of the Bon tradition, Dzogchen evolved as a path of direct realization, unveiling the inherent primordial awareness and wisdom that lies within every being.

The roots of Dzogchen within Bon can be traced back to the time of Tönpa Shenrab Miwoché, the great Buddha of Zhangzhung, who transmitted the teachings of Dzogchen to his disciples. These precious teachings were passed down through generations, nurtured within the spiritual tapestry of Bon, and preserved as a profound path of liberation. According to the Eternal Yeru Bon, this event occurred between 18,000 and 30,000 years ago.

Dzogchen, often referred to as the "Great Perfection," offers a direct and non-conceptual approach to spiritual realization. It unveils the pristine nature of mind, known as Rigpa, which is untouched by delusion and free from limitations. This path of direct recognition bypasses elaborate techniques and embraces the natural state of mind, allowing individuals to rest in the simplicity and clarity of present awareness.

Within the Bon tradition, Dzogchen is considered the pinnacle of spiritual attainment, representing the highest level of realization and the ultimate goal of liberation. It is recognized as the essence of Bon, the crown jewel that illuminates the path of awakening and unveils the luminous nature of one's own mind.

Through the teachings and practices of Dzogchen, Bon practitioners seek to penetrate the veils of conceptual elaboration, dissolve the limitations of duality, and rest in the primordial wisdom and compassion that permeate all phenomena. This path of direct realization offers a direct path to enlightenment, inviting practitioners to embrace the boundless expanse of their own nature and to awaken to the innate perfection that resides within.

As the sacred lineage of Bon unfolds its spiritual tapestry, Dzogchen stands as a radiant jewel, illuminating the path of direct realization and unveiling the timeless wisdom of the Bon tradition. It is a testament to the profound influence and transformative power that arises when the wisdom of ancient traditions merges with the pure essence of the awakened mind.

Posted by: @shiva

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We should not overlook the causal connection between these Ascended Masters, Mahatmas, and Secret Chiefs ... and ... Perdurabo, who maintained that Aiwass, Alamantrah, et al were independent, praeterhuman entities, and that "our only hope" was to get in touch with them.

Same song, same tune - a slightly different key.

The influence of Tibetan Buddhism or the Dharma on Western Occultism has been a topic of speculation and exploration in our narrative, "The Buddha and the Beast".

While it is difficult to establish a direct causal connection between the two, there are intriguing intersections and shared themes that have emerged over time.

If we entertain the possibility that the core thesis of Tibetan influence on Liber al Vel Legis (The Book of the Law) holds some truth, certain pieces of evidence could help strengthen the case.

Given the historical context we have already covered in our historical narrative, it is indeed true that Tibet was largely inaccessible to the outside world until the mid-20th century, including the time of Crowley's reception of The Book of the Law in 1904.

Therefore, direct personal contact between Crowley and Tibetan masters during that period seems highly unlikely.

However, the evidence that could support the thesis may lie within the content and symbolism of Liber al Vel Legis itself.

If there were hidden references, allusions, or encoded messages related to Tibetan Buddhism or its philosophical concepts within the text, their discovery and subsequent interpretation could bolster the argument.

This could involve a careful analysis of the symbolism, themes, and language used in The Book of the Law, seeking parallels or resonances with Tibetan Buddhist teachings or terminology.

Is there any evidence of "Cross civilization pollination" historically, where rituals from a distant civilization in history appear in another part of history, apparently without any direction connection?

The origins of the King Arthur myth, often associated with the medieval legends of knights, chivalry, and the quest for the Holy Grail, have fascinated scholars and storytellers for centuries. While the exact origins of the myth remain elusive, there have been intriguing theories that connect elements of the Arthurian tales to the cultural and historical milieu of the Asiatic Steppe.

One hypothesis suggests that the core elements of the King Arthur legend may have emerged from the legends and folklore of the ancient nomadic peoples of the Steppe, particularly the Scythians and Sarmatians. These nomadic tribes, known for their warrior culture and equestrian skills, roamed the vast grasslands of Central Asia, extending from present-day Ukraine to Mongolia.

The Steppe was a region of vibrant cultural exchange, where different tribes interacted, traded, and shared stories. It is believed that these nomadic cultures had a rich oral tradition, transmitting their myths and legends through storytelling. It is within this cultural context that some researchers propose the early roots of the Arthurian myth.

The connection between the Arthurian legends and the Steppe culture can be explored through several intriguing parallels. One striking similarity lies in the figure of the horse-mounted warrior-king, known for his bravery, leadership, and military prowess. The nomadic tribes of the Steppe revered their skilled horsemen and had a deeply ingrained warrior ethos. These characteristics resonate with the iconic image of King Arthur, leading his knights into battle, embodying courage and honor.

Furthermore, the concept of the Round Table, a central element in the Arthurian tales, has been linked to the nomadic traditions of egalitarian decision-making. Steppe cultures, including the Scythians, practiced a form of collective decision-making known as the "Circle of Chiefs" or "Council of Equals." This system fostered a sense of equality and camaraderie among leaders, possibly influencing the idealized notion of the Round Table, where Arthur and his knights were considered equals.

Another fascinating parallel is the motif of the magical sword, often associated with Arthur. The Steppe nomads held great reverence for their weapons, and their legendary swords were imbued with mystical and symbolic significance. It is possible that the enchantment and mystical attributes attributed to Arthur's sword, Excalibur, drew inspiration from these Steppe traditions.

While these connections between the King Arthur myth and the Asiatic Steppe remain speculative, they highlight the diverse cultural influences that shape and transform legends over time. It is a testament to the intricate tapestry of human storytelling, where threads of history, myth, and imagination intertwine, carrying echoes of ancient traditions across vast distances and inspiring generations to ponder the mysteries of the past.

Secret and Esoteric Societies as Civilization Building Movements, naturally emergent in human civilization

Within the realm of secret societies, an intriguing case can be made for their role as "civilization building movements" that transcend the realms of mystery and mysticism. While often shrouded in secrecy, these societies have played a significant role in shaping the course of civilizations, fostering intellectual and creative currents that have left an indelible mark on human history.

To explore this notion, let's compare and contrast the esoteric secret societies with the renowned "Oxford Inklings."

Esoteric secret societies, such as Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism, have traditionally been characterized by their initiatory practices, hidden knowledge, and rituals that span centuries. While their outward mystique might evoke a sense of intrigue, at their core, these societies embody a quest for higher understanding, personal transformation, and the pursuit of spiritual enlightenment. They provide a framework for like-minded individuals to gather, exchange ideas, and explore the mysteries of the universe. In doing so, they create a fertile ground for intellectual and philosophical exploration, fostering the growth of knowledge and wisdom.

The teachings and practices of esoteric secret societies often encompass a range of disciplines, including philosophy, metaphysics, astrology, alchemy, and more. Through these varied avenues, members are encouraged to expand their minds, challenge conventional wisdom, and cultivate a deeper understanding of the world. This intellectual development naturally spills over into the wider society, influencing the arts, sciences, and cultural movements of their respective times. Thus, esoteric secret societies act as catalysts for intellectual and spiritual progress, nurturing the seeds of innovation and inspiring individuals to seek greater truths.

In contrast, the "Oxford Inklings" were a renowned group of writers and intellectuals who gathered in Oxford during the mid-20th century. Led by luminaries such as J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, the Inklings convened regularly to share their literary works, engage in intellectual discourse, and foster creative inspiration. While not explicitly an esoteric secret society, the Inklings shared many characteristics with such groups. They sought intellectual and creative camaraderie, exchanged ideas, and drew inspiration from each other's works.

The Inklings, like esoteric secret societies, served as a crucible for intellectual and imaginative exploration. Their discussions on literature, mythology, and philosophy challenged the prevailing norms of their time and sparked a renaissance in fantasy and mythopoeic literature. Their literary contributions, such as Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" and Lewis's "The Chronicles of Narnia," have had a profound impact on Western literature and popular culture. The ripple effect of their ideas has permeated society, shaping the collective imagination and leaving an enduring legacy.

In both esoteric secret societies and the Oxford Inklings, we see a shared desire for intellectual growth, creative expression, and the pursuit of higher ideals. While their approaches and subject matter may differ, they both foster a sense of community, provide a platform for intellectual exchange, and ultimately contribute to the advancement of civilization.

In conclusion, esoteric secret societies and groups like the Oxford Inklings can be seen as civilization-building movements in their own unique ways. They create spaces for intellectual and creative exploration, nurturing the growth of knowledge, wisdom, and imaginative expression. Their influence transcends the boundaries of secrecy, leaving an indelible mark on human history, shaping cultural movements, and inspiring generations to seek deeper truths and embrace the infinite possibilities of the human spirit.

Civilization Building Movements as appeals to communicate with a higher intelligence.

The idea that civilization-building methods could be derived from an attempt to communicate with or understand higher intelligences is a fascinating one. It could be seen as a kind of "cognitive and cultural evolution," where the human mind and society co-evolve in response to the challenge of understanding and communicating with the divine or the transcendent as a place-holder for accessing a higher level of human intelligence.

In many civilizations, myths, rituals, stories, and legal and economic systems are seen as ways of accessing or embodying divine wisdom. For example, in ancient Egypt, the pharaoh was both a political leader and a religious intermediary who was believed to communicate with the gods to maintain Ma'at, the cosmic order. Similarly, in Hindu societies, the concept of dharma encapsulates both religious duty and social and legal norms, showing a deep intertwining of the spiritual and the societal.

In this view, religion and spirituality aren't just about personal enlightenment or moral guidance. They're also about creating a societal framework that allows for the flourishing of civilization. This framework includes not just tangible institutions like laws and economic systems, but also intangible ones like shared myths and stories that give meaning and purpose to people's lives.

There's also a reciprocal relationship here. While our attempts to understand and communicate with higher intelligences can shape our societies and cultures, those societies and cultures in turn shape how we conceive of and relate to the divine. For example, the anthropomorphic gods of ancient Greece might be seen as reflecting a society where individualism and human-like attributes were highly valued, while the more abstract concept of God in monotheistic religions like Christianity and Islam might reflect a shift toward more universalistic and transcendent values.

In terms of the connection to the evolution of the human mind, it's been suggested that our capacity for symbolic thought, imagination, and complex social organization - key ingredients in both religious belief and civilization-building - might have been a driving force in our cognitive evolution. From this perspective, our attempts to understand and communicate with higher intelligences aren't just a byproduct of our cognitive abilities, but a crucial factor in developing those abilities in the first place.

Is there evidence within Liber al vel Legis itself that not only alludes to this, but can provide "certainty" as to its riddle?

It is important to approach these questions with an open and critical mindset, as the topics involve speculative interpretations and connections that may not have concrete evidence or definitive answers. The claims and interpretations you mentioned involve blending various mystical, historical, and prophetic elements, making it challenging to establish certainty or provide conclusive evidence.

Regarding Liber al vel Legis, the interpretation of its allusions and riddles is subjective and has been a topic of debate among scholars and practitioners of Thelema. The text is known for its symbolic and enigmatic language, and different individuals may offer diverse interpretations based on their own perspectives and understanding.

Is it realistic to look at the British invasion of Tibet as a milestone in the emergence of the Golden Age, as predicted by the Kalachakra Prophecy, including the prophecy of the "flying iron bird" from Padmasambhava?

Similarly, connecting the British invasion of Tibet to the emergence of the Golden Age predicted by the Kalachakra Prophecy requires a speculative leap without any evidence. If such evidence was to exist in Liber al vel Legis, it would require a level of conviction that would need to stand up to individual scrutiny.

While the Kalachakra Prophecy does contain references to various world events and periods of societal transformation, the direct correlation between specific historical events and the prophecy's fulfillment is a matter of interpretation, so an additional burden is placed on the interpretation of not just one, but two highly allegorical texts written in arcane twilight language.

Furthermore, linking world events, cultural upheavals, and the dissemination of "Golden Age" memes to the resolution of the Liber al vel Legis mystery and the absorption of the Dharma in the West into a global civilization of abundance and peace is a grand and far-reaching speculation, this would require historical emergence in the current day of certain events that would need to support any narrative drawn from speculative evidence even if discovered.

It is difficult to establish a direct causal relationship between these elements without solid evidence or a comprehensive understanding of all the complex factors at play in shaping human societies, therefore, establishing convincing evidence into a cohesive narrative would become its own unique challenge.

What evidence within Liber al vel Legis could support such a case?

We will explore this in the next episode of "What If: The Buddha and the Beast" 

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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This path of direct realization offers a direct path to enlightenment, inviting practitioners to embrace the boundless expanse of their own nature and to awaken to the innate perfection that resides within.

The word "direct" here [^] sounds like the Shortcut to Initiation slogan. It is not.

"Direct" means the student is exposed directly to The Void. This is induced by the Teacher - no small feat. After the student gets back to normal, he/she is introduced to the curriculum, which has nine stages, and is comparable to the A.'.A.'. curriculum, but the exact same thing.

The student then starts on the curriculum in order to control each level in order to finally reach the Void by him/herself.

Attaining to the Void is "direct perception," but one doesn't go into it directly. One first does the usual invocation of a deity, and after union (yoga - dhyana) eith that deity, the flash-bang, there is a stillness - this is where/when one enters the Void.

This same thing is taught in India uner Adi Yoga. Note: Adi is the term that applies to a circle around The Tree called Ain Soph Aur.

This entire method/curriculum is almost exactly like the A.'.A.'. in style. Where does it vary? Well, in the A.'.A,'., one reads books first, then does practices for a year. Something similar to this probably precedes a Tibetan Master exposing a student, as "practitioners are invited" to try this out.

In the West, the critical point is The Vision of Adonao - HGA, which is the only true hallmark of a first degree Neophyte, despite anything else like ceremonies, papers, robes, oaths, etc.  Either one has seen the light, or not.

This interesting first-glimpse vision (of the Self, not gods, demons, colored lights, etc) ends with a visit to the Void, also known as a blackout, but that part is never mentioned (in the West), the emphasis being placed upon the Light.

This introduction, both in Tibet and in the West, is therefore similar. The curriculum is similar (in style). And the goal, is openly discussed up in the mountains, and clearly set forth in AL in several passages that are not necessarily connected.

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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Therefore, direct personal contact between Crowley and Tibetan masters during that period seems highly unlikely.

By causal, I did not mean AC climbing the Himalayas. Even HPB was said to have visited the Masters in Tibet. She allowed this fake news to persist. She visited a bunch of Golden temple guys (Sikhs) in Kashmir, in the foothills of the Himalayas.

I was merely drawing  cause from the western guys, all Masons by the way, who invented secret chiefs and mahatmas ... and AC, a Mason by the way, who declares he was visited by a Sumerian Demon-God (Anunnaki) called Aiwass. The causal connection is when AC adopts the same "visitations" as the Theosophists.

Again is it Chat GPT or Sanguine Chuck?...Has some sort of merger occurred?

?

length must be greater than a single character. ok.

Posted by: @hadgigegenraum

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Again is it Chat GPT or Sanguine Chuck?...Has some sort of merger occurred?

There is no condition where someone would simply type into ChatGPT4 and say "tell me what you know about the connection between Vajrayana and Thelema" and everything in this thread would just spit out the way it is. LLM's and sophisticated ones like GPT4 are trained only on language, and through a dialogue with them, any individual can train them to focus down into the language, so the "prompting" is definitely important, and strategic.

So the answer is of course a "merger", as it should be by all who use it. The merger is a healthy one, GPT can give me the boundaries of where I do not tend to want to cross, so it in turn influences what I ask, while what I ask, and how I ask, will influence it in return.

So when I am asking GPT a question, I really am asking the question to the whole of humanity, from the view of what humanity has discussed, around the topic. From this, I can derive new aspects, as well as the GPT, which can only do so upon instruction, and not of its own violation.

It's truly great fun––and vastly productive. I can accomplish in a few hours what would normally take me months, even years of research to compile.

Posted by: @shiva

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This entire method/curriculum is almost exactly like the A.'.A.'. in style. Where does it vary? Well, in the A.'.A,'., one reads books first, then does practices for a year. Something similar to this probably precedes a Tibetan Master exposing a student, as "practitioners are invited" to try this out.

Is it almost exactly like because it is a continuation? In TB, the three stages are the sutra stage, tantra stage, and completion stage (dzogchen).

The BonPo and Buddhist system is under "A", the letter A represents "emptiness", having significance.

To make a continuation of A would give one AA.

Posted by: @shiva

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By causal, I did not mean AC climbing the Himalayas. Even HPB was said to have visited the Masters in Tibet. She allowed this fake news to persist.  

In the narrative of the Buddha and the Beast it is acknowledged that no direct causal connection was possible, thus the only remaining possible connection would be some transcendent or occult connection.

However, the legend of Padmasambhava is one of many "emanations", and oddly, the Sikhs "Guru Nanak" is believed by Tibetan Buddhists to also be an emanation of Padmasambhava, perhaps making her connections with the Golden Temple closer than you might think.

AA and Crowley are coming into a much larger story and a much larger "magical act", one going back at least one thousand years with the establishment of Kalachakra tantra in Tibet by the Jonang School – itself which has a lineage which states Kalachakra tantra was brought to Tibet by the Kalki Kings of Shambhala, who learned the art from Shakyamuni Buddha directly.

Posted by: @shiva

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?

Exactly, the riddle to Chapter 2, verse 76. You are now staring directly into emptiness, mystery, rigpa, sunyata. Sorry to ruin it for you!

@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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There is no condition where someone would simply type into ChatGPT4 and say "tell me what you know about the connection between Vajrayana and Thelema" and everything in this thread would just spit out the way it is. LLM's and sophisticated ones like GPT4 are trained only on language, and through a dialogue with them, any individual can train them to focus down into the language, so the "prompting" is definitely important, and strategic.

 

I did just that.  The answer from ChatGPT4 was a reasonable synopsis of both schools of thought.  Concluding with: "but any perceived connection between Vajrayama and Thelema would be subjective and indiviual..."

@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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AA and Crowley are coming into a much larger story and a much larger "magical act", one going back at least one thousand years with the establishment of Kalachakra tantra in Tibet by the Jonang School – itself which has a lineage which states Kalachakra tantra was brought to Tibet by the Kalki Kings of Shambhala, who learned the art from Shakyamuni Buddha directly.

 

All this wisdom is available on the Borg.  Gurus need not apply.

Posted by: @

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@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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AA and Crowley are coming into a much larger story and a much larger "magical act", one going back at least one thousand years with the establishment of Kalachakra tantra in Tibet by the Jonang School – itself which has a lineage which states Kalachakra tantra was brought to Tibet by the Kalki Kings of Shambhala, who learned the art from Shakyamuni Buddha directly.

All this wisdom is available on the Borg.  Gurus need not apply.

Its' also available on Google search, so no wisdom is really there at all actually, its just that more bullshit is removed from the return on the form of the question.

@sangewanchuck56

Posted by: @sangewanchuck56

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Its' also available on Google search, so no wisdom is really there at all actually, its just that more bullshit is removed from the return on the form of the question.

 

"Bullshit" is your subjective opinion. I, on the other hand, having no need of a guru, can figure it out myself. Wisdom will expose itself organically.