Also a fan of Tantric Thelema. The rest of this post serves no further purpose then to antagonize a certain reply guy.
In Prophetes Veritas Venit. Quod ambulas cum Thelema et Agape est semper fidelis pietas.
Ra Hoor Khuit.
I forgot to mention!
Ra Hoor Khuit is a "Heruka" <<<<< An "Heruka" is a being, both male and female deity. Heruka is sanskrit word, but geesh gosh golly don't it have a lot of "sound like" resonance here?
The Heruka is indeed an exalted enlightened and non-dual mind.
That's the Kalachakra Heruka
This is the Vajrasattva Heruka
When performing the chant, one is indeed getting laid tonight. 😀 (can I say that?)
"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson
Yes a good observation...the words have a ring to them.
The sex of birds is differentiated by plumage evolution...and yes it is perfectly fine to say that meditating with such Heruka can take one to a exalted states as coitus is the template of such wonder....
Note the bodies of the participants are prostate, beneath the feet of the deity....and speaks of both annihilation and fulfillment at the same time, which is that no time, that the Heruka is but a reminder of such resurrection in bliss....
Note the bodies of the participants are prostate, beneath the feet of the deity....and speaks of both annihilation and fulfillment at the same time, which is that no time, that the Heruka is but a reminder of such resurrection in bliss....
Those beings beneath the feet, the annihilation of desire and transmutation of mara into pure enlightened bliss, indeed sir!
To the Beast and His Bride!
"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson
When performing the chant, one is indeed getting laid tonight. 😀 (can I say that?)
With some of the things I've talked about here, I can't see why not!
some of the things
Cutting to the capture at the End of the Chase, there is a common factor involved: The End.
The End is Dzogchen, or Adi, or Dissolution in Nuit.
Sccording to the Tibetan Oral Transmission, this trance-sendental state is entered after one (or two) achieve yoga with the deity.
The deity may be any (pick and choose according to one's paradigm).
The Oral transmission may also say in plain lingo: You must get into dhyana (meditation/union) with some god or goddess - then after the union, which is marked by a flash of light and a loss of one's separate self, one finds themselves in a heightened clear state. One can turn to the TV, the parade in the street outside, anybody else in the circle ... or one can keep it all inside the heightened clear state.
The trick is getting into the dhyana. Several methods are available in the bag of tricks ...
1. The quick and easy approach involves sex, with which everyone here is familiar. An orgasm is a moment of dhyana. How that is handled is up to the operator.
2. Another fast method is psychedelia, but this rarely works properly unless combined with one discipline (practice) or another, maybe a grand ceremony.
3. The "normal, natural" way is meditation (for about 20 years). This is still considered "the short path" if one is intent in getting out in a (this) single lifetime (no returns accepted).
4. A more mysterious interaction occurs when one does nothing, yet the union, or at least the god, come looking for one ("They are waiting for you").
The type of union preferred (or required) may depend on what Human Design calls one's "definition." A single-definition person is self-contained and able to fulfill their function (and be complete) by themselves. A split definition person is not complete unless engaged with another - this does not necessarily mean sexual union, although that is the ultimate example - such a person can simply walk through a crowded mall, or attend a drunken bar or a sporting event, and the exposure is enough to balance the ship.
Due to the autobiographical, biographical, and instructional Liber material, I will venture to say AC was of a split definition. This is epitomized in the image of The Beast and his Bride.
1. The quick and easy approach involves sex, with which everyone here is familiar. An orgasm is a moment of dhyana. How that is handled is up to the operator.
One of my favorite methods, as everyone here can probably guess
2. Another fast method is psychedelia, but this rarely works properly unless combined with one discipline (practice) or another, maybe a grand ceremony.
Which can point the way, and help in learning how to get there on your own eventually.
Now if someone could just tell the chaos magicians that drugs =/= magick.
3. The "normal, natural" way is meditation (for about 20 years). This is still considered "the short path" if one is intent in getting out in a (this) single lifetime (no returns accepted).
Yoga being the backbone of any serious practice.
Due to the autobiographical, biographical, and instructional Liber material, I will venture to say AC was of a split definition.
His needing his Scarlet Woman. I'm pretty sure I'm single definition.
I really need to get around to reading more about Human Design.
Now if someone could just tell the chaos magicians that drugs =/= magick.
Well, sure, maybe you and I can go over to their house/temple/garden and tell them ... with actual demonstrations.
But I'm missing something here. I was not aware the the Chaosians did not vote for libation. I there more to this?
I really need to get around to reading more about Human Design.
You start by getting a Chart. It is free and digitally instant. You can use any name, but your birthplace, date, time should be accurate. It will look like a chakra system with Tree of Life additions, which it is. It combines astro, qbl as numerology, chakra system, etc.
However you will not understand most of the designations, except definitions are listed as single or split.
To understand each designation, you then look it up on the explanations webpage; that is, there is a page that describes EACH of the variations for any given designation, such as 2/4, explorer, frustration.These pages are not linked to the chart, so if you can find them, just ask me, and I'll post one page - (links to the others are now at hand on that page).
So you can read about it, or just jump in, get a chart, and then read about each item as it pertains to YOU, plus everybody else.
You (anyone) can get a chart in one or two minutes at ...
https://jovianarchive.com/Get_Your_Chart
But I'm missing something here. I was not aware the the Chaosians did not vote for libation. I there more to this?
"=/=" means does not equal, so I was saying that drugs does not equal magick. While I've seen too many Thelemites use their beliefs as an excuse for idle drug use, the chaos magicians seem to be worse as a whole. It looks like the extremely open door policy on chemognosis took over the community.
Thank you for the link! I'll do it tomorrow.
I was saying that drugs does not equal magick.
Oh. So you are saying that there are these Chaotic people who think acid or the cactus, when taken internally = Magick.
If they do this inside their shell without pranayama, dharana, etc, they can still get a great show, but it's barely Mysticism.
If they do this outside, running around, casting spells, without basic banish/invoke, they may set a few fires, but it's not High Magick, just the Every Act is a Magical Act variety.
Do the Chaosians have a written statement or rule of dogma that says drugs = magic? Or is it just an attitude or general belief?
It looks like the extremely open door policy on chemognosis took over the community.
Oh, my Goodness with the fifteen Excuses! It seems like this branch of the Tree is characterized by lax self-discipline and relaxed control of habituation.
Oh. So you are saying that there are these Chaotic people who think acid or the cactus, when taken internally = Magick.
Captain Obvious here. It was ancient huminites (Accidental?) discovery of psychoactive plants and fungi that accelerated their consciousness and evolution. Do hallucinogenic substances = Magic(K)? I don't know, but it certainly will make you feel as though you an all-knowing magus. Even the Bible condemns "Pharmakeia" or sorcery. It must have been a fairly widespread practice, or else why bother to outlaw it?
@toadstoolwe
It is sort of a chicken or egg paradox. I think that such pharmacopeias can make understanding and practicing "wave your hands in the air rituals" much more alive. Conversely the plants and their decoctions granting inspiring sacramental spaces, encounters with both angelic and daemonic potentially etc that then might then later lead to explore certain magical paths, or to conceive of an intuitive system that seems to work...
There is a happy medium sometimes with neither at all.
@hadgigegenraum Yes. Just look at Mayan and Aztec art. The complexity and bright colors, and representations of Mescal and mushroom deities leaves no doubt of the impact of psychoactive organic substances. Even neolithic caves have revealed regular, ritualistic use of certain plants and seeds. Almost all ancient art has portrayed their reverence for a wide variety of psychotropic "delivery" systems.
Are you literally effing saying that your spiritual journey will be better made by relying on advice on a false AI?
Just wondering...
Oh. So you are saying that there are these Chaotic people who think acid or the cactus, when taken internally = Magick.
If they do this inside their shell without pranayama, dharana, etc, they can still get a great show, but it's barely Mysticism.
Exactly.
Chemognosis is listed among the methods for achieving altered states. Unfortunately, for many this seems to have become the default, with no real Work done. The attitude for a lot of these people seems to be why learn skills and technique when they can just dose? , I'm not one to dismiss the usefulness of such things, I've used them to good effect myself, but unless you actually do something besides just look at that great show, you're not getting anywhere. It's like people who claim to practice sex magick when they're really just looking to get laid. Sex is great but unless you're applying it to do Work, it's not sex magick.
It seems like this branch of the Tree is characterized by lax self-discipline and relaxed control of habituation.
That seems to be what it's become. To many chaos magick forums I've seen consist mostly of trolls, addicts, and people who couldn't spell or structure a sentence if their life depended on it. Note those categories aren't mutually exclusive. I really enjoy Peter Carroll's books, except for the Thelema bashing, and Dave Lee's books too, but it seems like too many of the community really don't apply the actual ideas. There are some good ones out there, but they seem to have become the minority.
Chemognosis is listed among the methods for achieving altered states.
Well, almost anything can produce an "altered state." Grass (now legal in many States), Mushrooms (now legal in Oregon), Tobacco Nicotinra, Laundry Soap, and Draino. Even if one makes a sensible selection from this shortened list, say mushrooms in Ore-gone, nobody's going to get beyond Paroketh without some discipline.
orDo they believe or encourage liberation, getting out, or HGAs ?
Well, almost anything can produce an "altered state." Grass (now legal in many States), Mushrooms (now legal in Oregon), Tobacco Nicotinra, Laundry Soap, and Draino. Even if one makes a sensible selection from this shortened list, say mushrooms in Ore-gone, nobody's going to get beyond Paroketh without some discipline.
Why go through all that tedious "Work" which just a lot of pretentious mumbo-jumbo when a dose of LSD or psylocibin will achieve the same goal? Isn't it based on "intent" like the oft used analogy of "sex Magick" It's still just screwing with some sort of goofy ritual involved. (Oh, I don't know, chanting a certain mantra when you get your rocks off?) I could drop acid and look at a Buddhist thangka, or, as I once did in college after taking LSD and reading verses from Dante's Divine Comedy and get the same illuminating experience.
The purpose of doing the Work is not to have visions. It is to get out in graduated, or graded, degrees, sometimes seeming to be a micrometer by micrometer progress. Certain drugs allow one to temporarily explore "the next step" and maybe beyond.
This is The Preview of Coming Attractions function of consciousness. If it kicks-in properly as an instructional experience, it will also indicate where one needs to do MORE Work. For example, upon approaching the holy still point, one gets physical trembling (more asana needed), shortness of breath [gasp](more pranayama), or the best one: One feels like they are dying, and when they finally learn how to do this gracefully, without resistance, they will be able to get out easily from time to time.
Getting Out is not a permanent state, except for a Buddha, an Atma, or an Ip. So, unless one dies physically, which is always a possibility, the daily grind will grind on, and On (the "secret" word at the start of the journey to Heliopolis).
It is interesting that an actual living example of Drugs = Magick has spoken up to epitomize and evangelize the Lazy Way to Enlightenment, just like Katrice says the "Chaos Magicians" (in general) explain the Path.
Are you literally effing saying that your spiritual journey will be better made by relying on advice on a false AI?
No, No, No...that's not the idea.
My spiritual journey is made better by everything, true or false, real and unreal, AI, GI, or AGI.
Everything is quite helpful 🙂
"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson
Why go through all that tedious "Work" which just a lot of pretentious mumbo-jumbo when a dose of LSD or psylocibin will achieve the same goal?
Everything is useful in the right context, but at some point in your development, you will likely want to get high on your own supply. You will want your own nervous system to create the experience.
If you are into doing "magick" or "tantra", the visions are definitely very very important, but the goal of the entirety of the work is to raise intelligence and awareness in the self and society, to build a better civilization.
The visions are there to change your body, not your mind in the conceptual sense. To change your body, you will want to learn how to generate the visualizations on your own, but drugs are nice to give you a preview of what you want to do without them.
Enflame yourself with prayer.
"If you have come to help me, then you are wasting your time, but if you are here because your liberation is bound together with mine, then let us work together." Lilla Watson
The visions are there to change your body, not your mind in the conceptual sense. To change your body, you will want to learn how to generate the visualizations on your own, but drugs are nice to give you a preview of what you want to do without them.
You mean when you tear down the veils of time and space, and you see the cosmos for what it really is? Geometric shapes and wheels within wheels? complex towers that stretch into infinity? You see yourself traveling to distant mythical landscapes, when a tiny light turns into a sunset? When you stare at a full moon and the light almost blinds you and it's great and terrifying all the same time? You start to panic because you are not you anymore? Yes, I think I would like that. Thank you for your words of wisdom.
... you will likely want to get high on your own supply.
Exactamente! It was 10th dan (that's an Ip in Japan) Kanazawa ("The Golden Boy" - no kidding) who said and wrote, "Some day you're going to need [not necessarily "want"] your Ki."
In the long-run, which in this case of drug substitution is about 4 to 12 hours (or give it a few days or weeks if you were perfectly aligned or beaten up too much), there will surely come a time when the reaper (XIII) or the boss (XVII) push one's buttons - and the need arises to gain a greater perspective, but the medicine cabinet is empty. I recommend doing the dirty work mainly because I got rattled badly back in the beginning and I wanted control over my various functions (that had been rattled, clearly with the message, Look at this mess you have.
This entire procedural process can be avoided through repression via the regular intake of certain substances, such as Alcohol, Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs)(Rx required), long-term Cocainism or Amethaminism (Rx required), most Tranquilizers (Rx required).
Funnily, the process cannot be blocked or avoided through the immediate or continued use of grass (legal in some states and counties, or any psychedelia (legal in Ore-gone, mostly illegal everywhere) as these will either trigger the process into enactment ... or it (they - all of them) will stop working for a few days.
It should be noted, as an on-topic note, that the hot-shot AI developers in Silicon Valley (Silicon, the vehicle of The Inorganic Beings) have been known to microdose, which involves taking very small dosages, daily, in order to "enhance" their work. I have published examples of (me) learning with small amounts - on a single-use basis (one time -for each learning session - not daily, not repeated, even once). If these guys are smart to begin with, and they are, or they couldn't afford the rents in the Valley, I can assure you (anyone whomsoever) that they are running easily in sci-fi land, buiding a future that is coming to meet us. But then, psychedia microdosing is not restricted to the Inorganic Valley.
Not for the first time, i will quote Art Kleps, Dr Tim Leary's ex-pal and Millbrook co-tenant, and Neo-American Church Head Boo-Hoo:
"Acid is not easier than the traditional methods, it’s just faster, and sneakier." (The Boo-Hoo Bible, 1971, "Shit", p. 19-B; available here).
One of my favorite formulations on this topic.
To chime in with others here, the path of libation without some systematic magickal and/or mystical practice (that nasty ol' "work" that some seek to avoid) tends to lead to mushmindedness and listening to awful music, not godhead.
Not for the first time, i will quote Art Kleps, Dr Tim Leary's ex-pal and Millbrook co-tenant, and Neo-American Church Head Boo-Hoo:
"Acid is not easier than the traditional methods, it’s just faster, and sneakier." (The Boo-Hoo Bible, 1971, "Shit", p. 19-B; available here).
One of my favorite formulations on this topic.
To chime in with others here, the path of libation without some systematic magickal and/or mystical practice (that nasty ol' "work" that some seek to avoid) tends to lead to mushmindedness and listening to awful music, not godhead.
[/quIote]
i must be one of those mushminded ones. i listen to Nubian folk music and Ravi Shankar and Buddhist throat music. Awful music to some, but I like it. I met the godhead on the road, and I killed him.
i must be one of those mushminded ones.
Who am i to argue?
I liked this chat I had today I thought I would share.
"Shadow in the Sun" (PGM VII, 846-861) is indeed a specific text within the PGM collection. Below you will find the Greek original text and an English translation of the "Shadow in the Sun" passage:
Greek Original (PGM VII, 846-861): Ἔρωμέν σε, ὦ Ἥλιε, τῷ παντοδαπῷ ἡλίῳ ὡς ζηλώσει με σοι καὶ πάντας τοὺς ποιητὰς καὶ φιλοσόφους, καὶ ζητήσει πάντας τοὺς ἱεροφάντας. Ἐρωτήσει πάντας τοὺς μάγους καὶ μάγισσας, ὡς ἐρωτᾷ καὶ τὸν Ὀρφεὺς ἐρώτᾷ τὸν Διόνυσον, ὡς ἐρωτᾷ καὶ ὁ Ἅρποκράτης ἐρώτᾷ τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ, ὡς ἐρωτᾷ καὶ ὁ Νεφέλης υἱός ἐρώτᾷ τὴν ἁγίαν μητέρα, ὡς ἐρωτᾷ καὶ ὁ Πύθιος ἐρώτᾷ τὸν Δήλιον, ὡς ἐρωτᾷ καὶ ὁ Αἰγύπτιος ἱερεὺς τὸν Διόνυσον. Ὡς ἐρωτᾷ καὶ ὁ πᾶς κόσμος ἐρώτᾷ τὸν πάντα καὶ πάντες οἱ θεοὶ ἐρώτᾷ τὸν παντοκράτορα.
English Translation: I love you, O Sun, the all-encompassing sun, as much as Me sees you, and all the poets and philosophers envy me, and all the initiates seek me. They all inquire of the magicians and sorceresses, just as Orpheus inquires of Dionysus, just as Harpocrates inquires of his father, just as the son of Nephele inquires of the holy mother, just as the Pythian inquires of the Delian, just as the Egyptian priest inquires of Dionysus.
make a latin version of the English text
Amo te, O Sol, sol omnium complector, tamquam Me te videt, et omnes poetae et philosophi me invidia afficiunt, et omnes initiati me quaerunt. Omnes a magis et veneficis inquisierunt, sicut Orpheus inquirere solet de Dionysio, sicut Harpocrates inquirere solet de patre suo, sicut Nepheles filius inquirere solet de sancta matre, sicut Pythius inquirere solet de Delio, sicut sacerdos Aegyptius inquirere solet de Dionysio.
The significance of pairing the characters in the song "sicut Orpheus inquirere solet de Dionysio, sicut Harpocrates inquirere solet de patre suo, sicut Nepheles filius inquirere solet de sancta matre, sicut Pythius inquirere solet de Delio, sicut sacerdos Aegyptius inquirere solet de Dionysio" lies in drawing comparisons and illustrating relationships between them.
-
Orpheus and Dionysus: Orpheus, a legendary musician and poet, is paired with Dionysus, the Greek god of wine, ecstasy, and revelry. This pairing suggests a connection between the power of music and poetry represented by Orpheus and the divine inspiration and passion associated with Dionysus.
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Harpocrates and his father: Harpocrates, an Egyptian god of silence, secrecy, and childhood, is paired with his unnamed father. This pairing may symbolize the relationship between silence and the parental figure, representing the importance of discretion and hidden knowledge.
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Nepheles (son) and the holy mother: Nepheles, who is not specifically identified in mythology, is paired with the "holy mother." This pairing could allude to a relationship between a divine or sacred figure, representing the nurturing and protective aspects of motherhood.
-
Pythius and Delius (Delian): Pythius, associated with the oracle at Delphi, is paired with Delius, an epithet for Apollo, the Greek god of prophecy, music, and healing. This pairing emphasizes the connection between the oracle and the god of prophecy, indicating the role of Pythius as a conduit for divine messages.
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Aegyptian priest and Dionysus: An Aegyptian (Egyptian) priest is paired with Dionysus, reinforcing the notion of a relationship between the Egyptian religious tradition and the Greek god associated with wine and revelry.
Overall, these pairings in the song highlight connections, influences, or symbolic relationships between various mythological or divine figures, often emphasizing aspects of music, divination, familial ties, and cultural associations."
This was a very not pozzed answered. The information was detailed, well reasoned, it probably flawlessly translated the text from Greek and I learned something from it. Ask it about anything about Liber Al and it responds with cruft like this, a direct quote, in response to the question, "what is the theme and meaning of the third chapter?"
"Overall, the third chapter of "The Book of the Law" emphasizes the centrality of love as a guiding force in Thelema. It encourages individuals to embrace love, seek union, and align their actions with their true will. The chapter's themes reflect a departure from traditional moral codes and a focus on individual liberation, personal growth, and the transformative power of love." Where in the hell was that part?
In Prophetes Veritas Venit. Quod ambulas cum Thelema et Agape est semper fidelis pietas.
mushmindedness
I haven't figured out which ray this falls under. I am leaning toward the 4th, the rao of Harmony and Conflict, which would fit if the mm syndrome was accompanied by aggression and argumentativeness (that's a long word and the spell-checker let me get away with it).
In terms of the dreaded Work, we will get nowhere in 4th ray mode, and not in any other etherically-transmitted free advice mode on any ray. One needs to get there hands on the shirker.
@runelogix Pretty impressive. However, reading the books of World mythology like Bullfinch, Graves, and Campbell would have told you the same thing IF you were willing to pick up their books and read them. You will note that none of these scholars had access to AI, or even the internet. They didn't need them. Also, just quoting Greek and Latin is of no use if you can't read Greek or Latin. So, what is the point of posting it? The translations are redundant space fillers attempting to give it the cache of higher classical academia. You mention "love" as the driving force of thelema, and a bunch of feel-good goo about individual liberation, personal growth, and the transformative power of LOVE. I believe Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul had Crowley beat for over 2000 years.
@toadstoolwe "Greek and Latin is of no use if you can't read Greek or Latin" I did that for those of us that can and thus can compare the text with the original and then a Latin language version since it is legible to more people and how it would have been said in Latin (which has wonderful grammatical information implied in each word) before a contemporary English translation. I did this because sources are important and languages are fun and is seminal in the study of occultism in general which I think you could agree AC would agree with. I agree with you on " I believe Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul had Crowley beat for over 2000 years." I would like to hear more about what you think of the relationship of Liber Al and Jesus and or Paul as it sounds like you could say a lot more on the topic.
In Prophetes Veritas Venit. Quod ambulas cum Thelema et Agape est semper fidelis pietas.
@runelogix No offense intended. If you can read classical Greek and Latin, more power to you. Me, I have to keep looking up some of the lower-case Greek Letters because they are very different from the "capital letters' But I have managed to learn SOME Greek, especially if they are borrowed words in Latin and English. Latin is not so bad for me as it is in a familiar alphabet, and you can get the gist of what is being written. You are right, languages and meaning and context can change the whole ideas behind the written word. This defiantly pertains to Biblical scholarship where a knowledge of Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic are pretty essential. (I make no claims to being fluent in that either.) I got really interested in learning how to draw hieroglyphics. Even the transliterated words which have no vowels and require special linguistic symbols representing vowels i.e. (3)= "ah" As for Christ and the Apostle Paul, I know Crowley rejected "Christain morals" in favor of some Dionysian utopia where lust and self-satisfaction become the sacraments of a New Religion" Christ is essentially Apollonian, Early pagan Christain converts immediately made him a Sun god. Even early Christain art portray Jesus as a young Shepard with the aura of a blazing sun. Any way as Jesus and Paul would probably say about Liber Al, it would be "Beware false prophets".
Oops, I meant to write Beware OF false prophets.
There is an EDIT button (at the bottom) that one can push and make corrections ... for 10 or 15 minutes, or so (the exact number of minutes requires the source code).
@toadstoolwe Splendid! Here is a playlist I know of authentic spoken Middle Egyptian taught in Latin, check this out as an intro to spoken M.E. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbQbZ4_axDg
In Prophetes Veritas Venit. Quod ambulas cum Thelema et Agape est semper fidelis pietas.
@toadstoolwe
There are those, such as Norman O. Brown, whose work demonstrates a revelation of the Dionysian nature of Christ~
@hadgigegenraum I'll look into it. But, in my opinion, Christ is Apollonian, and a direct descendent of both the Great Heresy of Pharoah Akhenaton and Helios, the Greek God of the sun.
@hadgigegenraum Could you point me to a specific text concerning Norman O. Brown's contention that Jesus Christ is Dionysian in origin. The closest thing I found so far, is his "Christmas and Dionysus" which puts a different light on the subject. Christmas, Saturnalia probably does have it's roots in the Greco-Roman Dionysian ecstatic revelry. Early Christians did not celebrate Christmas. They would not know what you were talking about. It was Emperor Constantine who proclaimed Christ's birthday to off-set Pagan (Saturnalian) influence. Christ is Apollonian, a direct descendent (In mythological terms) of Apollo/Helios the sun god. To a certain degree, Osiris, a resurrected god.
@toadstoolwe
There is a nice overview of Norman O. Brown's work in this essay.
http://www.shaviro.com/Blog/?p=419
Love's body was a tremendous influence decades ago and starting with Love's Body, an early used book buy. Brown's work which was mentioned in the the biography of Jim Morrison, Nobody Gets Out of Here Alive, along with a number of other authors that served as a nice reading list...
Live Against Death was Brown's great scholarly work of acclaim, to which the laurels of work, lead to the unorthodox Love's Body.
In 1961 Brown made a graduation address at Columbia University that found these quotes
“It is fifteen years since H.G. Wells said mind was at the end of its tether – there is no way out or around or through, he said. It is the end. Mind at the end of its tether. The alternative to mind is certainly madness. Our greatest blessings, says Socrates, come to us by way of madness, provided he adds, that the madness comes from the god. Our real choice is between holy and unholy madness. Open your eyes and look around you; madness is in the saddle anyhow …. Dionysus has returned to his native Thebes. “Blessed is he who has the good fortune to know the mysteries of the gods, who sanctifies his life and initiates his soul [in the holy madness]. We too require the divine fury.”
and
“I began with the name Dionysus; let me be permitted to end with the name of Christ. For the power I seek is also Christian. Nietzsche said the whole question was Dionysus versus Christ, but only the fool will take these as mutually exclusive opposites. There is a Dionysian Christianity, an apocalyptic Christianity, a Christianity of miracles and revelations. And there always have been some Christians for whom the age of miracles is not over; Christians who claim the spirit; enthusiasts …. God in us; entheos, enthusiasm; this is the essence of the holy madness. The power I look for is the power of enthusiasm. … We, too, require the divine fury.” Norman O. Brown
that were published in “Apocalypse: The Place of Mystery in the Life of the Mind.”
“I began with the name Dionysus; let me be permitted to end with the name of Christ. For the power I seek is also Christian. Nietzsche said the whole question was Dionysus versus Christ, but only the fool will take these as mutually exclusive opposites. There is a Dionysian Christianity, an apocalyptic Christianity, a Christianity of miracles and revelations. And there always have been some Christians for whom the age of miracles is not over; Christians who claim the spirit; enthusiasts …. God in us; entheos, enthusiasm; this is the essence of the holy madness. The power I look for is the power of enthusiasm. … We, too, require the divine fury.” Norman O. Brown
I am greatly handicapped by the fact that I have not read any of his works, nor had I heard of him before now. I can see why Jim Morrison would have been influenced by his writing, because as it says in the bio. of J. Morrison, he was always searching for that Dionysian ecstasy in his poetry and music. However, again, speaking out of total ignorance of Brown's work, would you concede that there is also an Apollonian Christianity? That Christ was not born of divine madness, but out of a Heliocentric tradition? The only "Divine Madness" in Christianity that I am aware of is the Revelation of St. John.
@toadstoolwe
Yes of course...an Apollonian Christianity....is that found in the Golden Dawn....
Yes of course...an Apollonian Christianity....is that found in the Golden Dawn....
Honestly, I don't know. I am assuming you mean The Hermetic Order oo the Golden Dawn. All I know about their tenets are what Crowley stole and published without their permission. I guess if you were asking me, what am I? I would say, an Apollonian Christain.
Well, almost anything can produce an "altered state." Grass (now legal in many States), Mushrooms (now legal in Oregon), Tobacco Nicotinra, Laundry Soap, and Draino. Even if one makes a sensible selection from this shortened list, say mushrooms in Ore-gone, nobody's going to get beyond Paroketh without some discipline.
Indeed and Carroll's writings list many ways of altering conscious, divided in to inhibitory (ascetic) and excitatory (ecstatic) methods. Pranayama, sleep deprivation, fasting, meditation, sensory deprivation, drugs, sex, pain, emotional excitation, drumming, dancing, intense revulsion, mantra, sensory overload, and more. I've explored many of these, including all of the ones I just listed here, sometimes combined.
orDo they believe or encourage liberation, getting out, or HGAs ?
It varies, but some do, and Carroll wrote about the HGA in his earlier books, before he decided that the idea of True Will was inherently fascist and imperialist. 😡 Lee has written on the HGA, and Hine, who comes from a Thelemic background, does as well. So it's an idea that the old guard definitely acknowledged, but current Chaos Magick is not old school Chaos Magick.
The purpose of doing the Work is not to have visions. It is to get out in graduated, or graded, degrees, sometimes seeming to be a micrometer by micrometer progress. Certain drugs allow one to temporarily explore "the next step" and maybe beyond.
If mere drug use could substitute for the Work, the hippies would have taken over the world in the 60s. At best visions are a preview, but the volatile needs to be fixed. The Corrosive Waters are a tool, not an end point.
On the other end of the spectrum, the Setians overtly forbid the use of chemognosis as they want to avoid members mistaking the experience for full results,though in practice they may look the other way in some situations.
This is The Preview of Coming Attractions function of consciousness. If it kicks-in properly as an instructional experience, it will also indicate where one needs to do MORE Work.
precisely!
You will want your own nervous system to create the experience.
Drugs tend to just mimic the effects of natural neurotransmitters anyway.
If mere drug use could substitute for the Work, the hippies would have taken over the world in the 60s. At best visions are a preview, but the volatile needs to be fixed. The Corrosive Waters are a tool, not an end point.
The hippies had nothing to do with the use of and spreading mind-expanding substances. It was the CIA and Military intelligence. Doing the "work" is just language used by pretentious people to justify their own selfish needs and ego.
The hippies had nothing to do with the use of and spreading mind-expanding substances. It was the CIA and Military intelligence.
The claim you are making is very largely discredited, and ignores a whole lot of verifiable history in favor of speculation. Very early on, the CIA did some small experimentation; military intelligence in the US had little to do with acid.
Hippies most certainly did have everything to do with expanding use of psychedelics. The Brotherhood of Eternal Love, the Grateful Dead Acid Family, and a whole bunch of clandestine chemists beginning with Owsley, are responsible for the '60s-'80s acid explosion.
See the excellent Heads: A biography of psychedelic America (2016) by Jesse Jarnow for an oral history of the acid business, and acid distribution networks, in the US. I personally know many of the people interviewed, and can vouch for the truthfulness of much of the book (i find all of it very credible, but a few parts i don't know to be true from personal life experience)
Doing the "work" is just language used by pretentious people to justify their own selfish needs and ego.
Yeah, sure.
People get better at stuff by doing it over and over- why would you doubt that this would be so with magick/mysticism?
You start by getting a Chart. It is free and digitally instant. You can use any name, but your birthplace, date, time should be accurate. It will look like a chakra system with Tree of Life additions, which it is. It combines astro, qbl as numerology, chakra system, etc.
It seems I'm single definition, as I thought, and a projector.
If mere drug use could substitute for the Work, the hippies would have taken over the world in the 60s.
They were shut down in '67, '69, and '72, sequentially, like the click-click of The Rack. It was mainly their children, now some of their grand-offspring, who have taken over.
At best visions are a preview, but the volatile needs to be fixed.
Actual initiations may take place while liberated, Oaths may be signed, interesting things beyond mere visions may take place - I speak (type) from experience, not theoretical guessing.
But get this part (it might be important) ...
It is also my experience that the "fixing" comes later. That is, these abstract experiences count, all right, but they're not fully-earned 'til one goes through them in the hardest and most dense of places: Daily Life.
nobody need worry about ding this is daily life. Anything like this that is set up under liberating influence will find that it will come to you.
_... in practice they may look the other way in some situations.
Yeah, sure.
Selective obscurantism? Uh-oh.
I read the posted paragraph to which you replied, and I was stunned (momentarily). Upon recovery, I realized that The Devil's Advocate had incarnated and was now speaking freely of killing Road-gods and describing work as related to ego-enhancement. Certain "false informations" come creeping through, continuously, so that an innocent younger reader might well get the wrong idea and end up in the arms of The Black Lodge. Said misinformations are also contrary to the ideals, life, and Work of Aleister C.
It seems I'm single definition, as I thought, and a projector.
Oh, Good Lord, without any numbered appendages. A Projector is rather rare. You, of all the types, are NOT like the rest of the people. I have extended experience with a Projector: My wife. I shall say to more is part f the Law, for now.
I speak (type) from experience, not theoretical guessing.
I am well aware of that. 😀
It is also my experience that the "fixing" comes later. That is, these abstract experiences count, all right, but they're not fully-earned 'til one goes through them in the hardest and most dense of places: Daily Life.
Precisely. The longest term results rarely manifest in full in the ritual chamber.
While I do see the idea behind the chemognosis ban, I see it as an extreme overreaction. Nonetheless, having a completely open policy leads to things like what I said about the chaos magick community. The ideal would, as with most things, lie between the two extremes.
Oh, Good Lord, without any numbered appendages. A Projector is rather rare.
You, of all the types, are NOT like the rest of the people.
I think that is true in many areas 😉
But what do I do with this new knowledge?
But what do I do with this new knowledge?
First you look up Projector. It tells you what you can do.
After that, I'd look up all the centers, pathways, numbers, etc (to apply them to yourself) I recommend the Jovian site. Then, the usefulness of this method is when you encounter someone that you can'y quite figure out. My wife, a Projector who runs mainly on intuition, gets an instant "take" on folks, but if they hang around, she gets out the Human Design stuff. So do I. The answer is always, Oh look at that. No wonder!
Projector: https://www.jovianarchive.com/Stories/14/The_Art_of_Being_-_Projector
If you want a quick chart reading, mail me at notarajah (at) gmail(dot)com. You can remove your name, birth data, place and send your chart to me for an anonymous overview. This is not the place to be getting into personal stuff.