Home Forums Thelema Thelema A new resident of the City of the Pyramids!: Los

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  • #100909

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    “The trouble is, that the whole problem arises when the so-called ‘Thelemic Skeptics’ (you, Erwin, Los) try to trash the beliefs or positions of ‘supernaturalists’ irrespective of what may or may not be revealed in the future.”
    —Beliefs? They don’t “believe” as they are not relying on faith but science. I think you mean “position” as oppose to “belief”.

    No, I meant “beliefs or positions”, as in
    … in the meantime saying that they DO know and forcing their own beliefs or positions as the only truth down everybody’s throats …
    only of course you sneakily silently selectively quoted me there without even a “…” and I forgot to type “or positions” in a second time, although my meaning should be perfectly clear and obvious. And I did say “beliefs or positions”. But you’re right, they don’t really “believe” anything, do they— they just fake all that stuff.

    Cheez, who’s “splitting hairs” now?!

    N Joy

    #100912

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    Beliefs? They don’t “believe” as they are not relying on faith but science.

    Really?

    Earlier in this thread, Tiger quoted Los from his blog: “When this [the process of thinking] is seen clearly, it becomes obvious that there isn’t ultimately a ‘thinker’ at all. It is in this way that one ‘transcends’ thought and the laws that govern those thoughts.”

    Given that, according to Los, experience has no explanatory power, one wonders what weight we are expected to give this thesis. Obviously it has resonances with traditions of Eastern Mysticism such as Advaita Vedanta, Ch’an Buddhism and the like, but I shouldn’t imagine that means much to “Skeptical Thelema”.

    #100913

    dom
    Participant

    @michael Staley

    Yes I openly admit that now and again Crowley said some things that appear to renege upon the scientific method. I was wrong to state that I know why he did this. I don’t know.

    #100915

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    I DON’T KNOW yet […] I don’t know.

    So just exactly what is it you do know then, dom?

    (Tsk! Well I don’t know, funny business this, gawd help us all!…)
    N Joy

    #100916

    ignant666
    Participant

    What- a “Skeptic” experiencing doubt, and coming to grips with the fact that AC contradicts himself often, both because his views changed over time (as Michael points out), and also because of his fondness for paradoxes? There may be hope for you yet, david!

    Maybe AC said all those “transcendentalist” things because he thought they were true? Maybe you and Erwin and Los have completely misunderstood the “skeptical” passages you love to cherrypick?

    Perhaps the fact that several of us have pointed out that concepts (‘fancy pictures”) like “True Will”, “The Abyss”, and “The Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel” have no scientific validity, and are not detectable or measurable in any way, is beginning to sink in past the hard armor of devoutly-held “skeptical” dogma?

    Your efforts to claim “True Will” is so measurable are risible. What would you say are the four or five best recent papers by “psychologists and neurologists” in reputable peer-reviewed scientific journals that present data as to, or measurements of, “True Will”?

    #100917

    dom
    Participant

    @michael Staley

    Beliefs? They don’t “believe” as they are not relying on faith but science.

    Really?

    Earlier in this thread, Tiger quoted Los from his blog: “When this [the process of thinking] is seen clearly, it becomes obvious that there isn’t ultimately a ‘thinker’ at all. It is in this way that one ‘transcends’ thought and the laws that govern those thoughts.”

    Given that, according to Los, experience has no explanatory power, one wonders what weight we are expected to give this thesis. Obviously it has resonances with traditions of Eastern Mysticism such as Advaita Vedanta, Ch’an Buddhism and the like, but I shouldn’t imagine that means much to “Skeptical Thelema”.

    You may get something out of this essay on comparing and contrasting Zen and Thelema.

    http://thelema-and-skepticism.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/mailbag-thelema-and-zen.html

    I agree that Zen is lacking insofar as it has no vocab that involves the concept of True Will. In other words Zen Buddhists appear to have no “course correction” thereby.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    #100919

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    What a terrible and tragic thing it would be for the world of thought and ideas if something was to happen to the internet and Los’s blogs were somehow lost to posterity and no longer available as source material to his acolytes such as our dom? Just how on earth would we, or perhaps more accurately they, ever manage to get by & think for themselves??

    Concernedly yours
    N Joy

    P.S., It’s rather revealing that, tucked away right at the end of this blog on zen and thelema, is this curious little nugget from Los:

    In its more restricted sense of ceremonies that attempt to cause change through some “supernatural” mechanism, I practiced “magick” for a few years (with lots of [what I thought were] “results”) before I realized how stupid it was (and how dumb I was being).

    Stupid and dumb because of what sort of “results”, he doesn’t say.  Doesn’t know, possibly!?

    #100921

    Shiva
    Participant

    D: I agree that Zen is lacking insofar as it has no vocab that involves the concept of True Will. In other words Zen Buddhists appear to have no “course correction” thereby.

    I had a teacher/guru, back in the mid 70s, who said the Japanese “skip a step.” They go for the final goal directly without dealing with intermediate principles. It’s like climbing the Tree via the middle pillar. As a result, their attainment(s) is/are fragile.

    I never really understood this statement/explanation, but your pointing out of their lack of Will (as a concept) brings it into focus.

    #100922

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Interesting to compare and contrast the original in the blog by Los:

    I’d say the primary difference between Thelema and Zen is that Thelema has a fully-developed concept of “True Will” (both in terms of theory and practice) that allows us to “course correct” (in a way that Zen never emphasizes)

    with the following paraphrase of the above attributed to dom himself, and from his post:

    D: I agree that Zen is lacking insofar as it has no vocab that involves the concept of True Will. In other words Zen Buddhists appear to have no “course correction” thereby.
     
    I suppose this could be looked upon as one practical example of dom’s earlier analogy of 700 math teachers teaching the same principles of algebra in their own different ways — I wonder if there are many others?

    Drawing my own conclusions,
    N Joy

    #100924

    dom
    Participant

    @ignant666

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep16891

    I don’t know ad it’s all about MRI scans but yeah in terms of practicality it’s looking ridiculous.

    #100925

    Tiger
    Participant

    it (Zen) doesn’t give any practical indications of what to do once the mind has been switched off (or how to continue to navigate the world once the mind has been turned back on).” by Los

    what ? so the

    Thelema (that is, the way I present Thelema, which is the way that Thelema actually is, as opposed to the fantasy weirdness that many others present it as)” by Los

    has a manual on crossing the Abyss ?

    #100926

    ignant666
    Participant

    David: I don’t see “True Will” mentioned here- are you sure this is the article you intended?

    In case this was the article you intended, you can’t seriously be suggesting that all happy people by definition are doing their True Will?

    #100927

    christibrany
    Participant

    I said I wouldn’t post in this thread anymore because it truly is pointless, but I just had to underline the immense disgusting arrogance and egotism behind this statement:

    “Thelema (that is, the way I present Thelema, which is the way that Thelema actually is, as opposed to the fantasy weirdness that many others present it as)” by Los

    My word…enough said.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  christibrany. Reason: changed the word 'here' to 'in this thread'
    #100929

    ignant666
    Participant

    Yes, but now S.’. H.’. Fra. Los is a mere Pile Of Dust, his rampant ego and overweening arrogance now merely memories.

    #100930

    christibrany
    Participant

    @ignant666

    Thank Science! 😉

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