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Jamie J Barter
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26/09/2018 1:57 pm  

The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another? There are parallels to be found here with Crowley’s account in Chapter 21 of Magick in Theory and Practice where he wrote: “The Master Therion once found it necessary to slay a Circe who was bewitching brethren. He merely walked to the door of her room, and drew an astral T [symbolic of Saturn and death] with an astral dagger. Within 48 hours she shot herself.” However the activity described below took place in 1915 --- the same year when he assumed the grade of Magus 9=2 and therefore one assumes ought to have known better, although Churton fails (or is careful not) to offer any judgement himself here.

From “Aleister Crowley in America: Art, Espionage and Sex Magick in the New World” by Tobias Churton (Inner Traditions Books, 2017):

{Crowley] decided to "take an extreme course with the determination to bring permanent relief." His magical intention was plain: to invoke the powers to rid Jeanne permanently of her husband, by such means to accelerate any tendency in Matlack Foster that would lead naturally to his death, and to remove any obstacle to Crowley’s formally marrying the Scarlet Woman so to establish the New Aeon afresh, after the Beast’s disastrous first marriage. [...]
The rite’s Object Crowley put in cipher: Θ ... 40 ... Φ. Given everything else in the context, the Greek theta almost certainly stands for thanatos, death; the 40 is the number of the Hebrew letter mem (M), and the Greek phi stands for F: “Death…M.F.” M.F. is Matlack Foster. There are plenty more clues. After “closing the temple” he went away at 3:15 a.m., continuing the mantra Θ.∆ … O.M.Φ. He then, employing gœtic magic, invoked (the Hebrew letter tav, T or Th) by (figure of seal of Solomon) using the proper names, and that also of [Hebrew, aleph], the notorious angel appropriate.” That archangel was Azazel, Hebrew angel of death. "This I repeated outside the apartment of the person indicated; and I further invoked [figure for Saturn] to protect my beloved Hilarion.” Crowley and Deroxe inhaled ethyl ether (diethyl ether) and took cocaine. Plunging his ring into the Holy Book “Thelema,” he found the words “a drop of the poison of eld.” So there can be little doubt as to what he was up to. (pp. 354-5)

Importantly his [Crowley’s] next comment links the circumstance to Opus number CXXI with assistant Myriam Deroxe, where he had willed death on Matlack Foster: “I doubt almost whether Ops like CXXI are legitimate after all, whether indeed one should not ‘overcome evil with good’ in the world as well as oneself.” […] A note of November 16 indicates he met Jeanne’s husband and put a magical death-sign on him, “astrally”. […] The Object was death (in code) for Matlack Foster “for the third and last time!!!” He appears to have heard that Matlack’s health was failing so he wrote, “Please God this may finish the whole hellish business!” […]
"Object: Semper eadem! --- “ever the same!” Was that thanksgiving or a death wish on Foster? The result suggests the latter […] “The three previous operations had been unsuccessful, though some effect was evident. The return current may have hit us [a reaction effect reminiscent of “evil be to he who evil thinks”]. Soror H. has been very ill ever since leaving Buffalo, and I the day after I arrived in Chicago. We are still far from well. These Operations may be all wrong; but we had better go on if it kills us both.”(pp 359-60)

In the circumstances I find A.C.’s use of the phrase above “accelerate any tendency in [the victim] that would lead naturally to his death” could be construed as rather disingenuous. A.C. could not know whether the True Will of his victim (here, Matlack Foster the individual in question) was to die earlier than he might, and particularly if the employment of any type of poison were to be involved. (As a matter of fact, he would go on to live another eighteen years). Whether this act of poisoning was actually carried through or not is not the point though; I am alluding to the intention here, and the Thought is forerunner of the Deed.

Is this not Black Magic of the blackest hue, or at least that of an unpleasantly and distasteful muddy grey?

Enquiringly yours, as ever
Norma N Joy Conquest


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Michael Staley
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26/09/2018 5:32 pm  

@Jamie

Well, I take your point here, Jamie, but in my experience True Will is universal rather than personal. I don't think that we, as apparent individuals, have an innate True Will; rather, a universal True Will is expressed through us.

I know I've wished specific people dead at various times over the years, but those people are still in the land of the living so far as I know. Was I attempting Black Magic thereby? Yes, I suppose I was.


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ignant666
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26/09/2018 5:52 pm  

In the first case, AC is claiming "psychic self-defense", and i would bet in the second also.

This is probably typical of folks who engage in these practices, which should be viewed as more silly than sinister.


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Jamie J Barter
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29/09/2018 5:24 pm  

After 3 days, it seems only half a dozen lines of feedback from two posters has been generated. Can the age of the dynamic cut-and-thrust of online debating about A.C. & Thelema be well and truly over, or has the novelty of forum participation (and not just Lashtal) just worn off? As OP, I will also administer the last rites to this thread (possibly unless anyone else gets it going again)...

@MichaelStaley :

I know I’ve wished specific people dead at various times over the years, but those people are still in the land of the living so far as I know. Was I attempting Black Magic thereby? Yes, I suppose I was.
Come, come Michael: there's a significant whole world of difference between a momentary passing wish and a carefully thought out and executed pre-meditated plan of action, however.

I've no doubt everyone's experienced a momentary outburst of ill temper - such as, an explosion of road rage at someone cutting you up in traffic where one's provoked to wind down the window and yell at them to "drop dead, you moron" without actually expecting them to expire on the spot as a result. Likewise, describing a similar incident to someone else saying "I could have Killed that bastard" - nobody really expects them to go ahead and do anything of the sort. However from the description given this episode doesn't belong to this category, does it?

A (IXth degree) magical ritual carried out repeatedly with the express intention of causing another person to die prematurely, whether they may have a "natural" "tendency" to do so or not, is by A.C.'s own definition of the term a black magical act. But of course, being A.C. and a 9=2 and the Prophet of the New Aeon we must make an exception and excuse him from any blame as he doubtless had his own very good reasons for behaving as he did way beyond the comprehension of far less perspicacious followers and otherwise mere mortals!

@ignant666 :

In the first case, AC is claiming “psychic self-defense”, and i would bet in the second also.
According to the evidence though, it's not A.C. who is being "attacked" and therefore would need to be on the defensive since he is the perpetrator and aggressor engaging on first strike.

This is probably typical of folks who engage in these practices, which should be viewed as more silly than sinister.
Silly rather than sinister, sure, if there wasn't any trace of A.C. being serious. But going to all the time & trouble of premeditated planning aforethought and execution of at least three full IXth operations (or Opuses) indicates he'd spent a considerable amount of energy and resources on this. And lest we forget, he also thought about bumping Jeanne Foster off for good measure as well, indeed conceived of it as his "duty" (see Confessions, p. 805 for more detail): delusion, madness or what?!

The lesson appears to be: it's quite alright and in accordance with the Law of Thelema to at least plan to poison your lover's husband if he's in the way, or murder her as well if she's outlived her usefulness as your (scarlet) woman and has now become an inconvenient nuisance.

Am I being silly or serious, or simply trying to get a bit of interesting argument going?

Facebook uber alles (for the borrowed time being now, anyway)
N Joy


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dom
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29/09/2018 6:07 pm  

After 3 days, it seems only half a dozen lines of feedback from two posters has been generated. Can the age of the dynamic cut-and-thrust of online debating about A.C. & Thelema be well and truly over, or has the novelty of forum participation (and not just Lashtal) just worn off

How can the prophet of the aeon be a 'black magician'? Your OP is a null and void question if you look at it like that and this probably explains the lack of interest.


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ignant666
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29/09/2018 6:55 pm  

Despite all your hard work on the logic course, you still need to work on application of logic to real-world argumentation, david.

One key step is identifying any unstated assumptions, such as your unstated assumption that all who post here believe AC to be "the prophet of the aeon", or perhaps believe that "the demon Crowley" is above criticism as the earthly vehicle of Thelema.

Anyone who knows much about his life knows that Crowley was often a horrible person, who said and did terrible, shameful things, and then lied about them. He saw himself as the victim of every life-circumstance, and constantly beset by traitors, disciples who stole his property, and women and men who proved unworthy of his Sacred Elixir.

He thus saw himself as justified in doing things like cursing people by using what he believed to be very powerful magickal means. Of course, the real secret of the OTO is that the IX "technique" doesn't work. But AC clearly believed (against considerable evidence) that it did.

The episodes JB recounts are clearly not among AC's finest hours, even if in real world terms they just consist of having sex while thinking mean thoughts about someone not present.

Cursing folks also seem inconsistent with being an 8=3, what with ceasing to prefer anything to any other thing and what-not, but i can't be bothered to cross-reference AC's claimed attainment-dates and these incidents.


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Tiger
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29/09/2018 10:11 pm  

you all move to fast
still trying to figure out The Man Crowley The Adept Crowley The Demon Crowley The MASTER THERION, the left hand path, black magic, the bad guys from the good guys phew 🙂
https://youtu.be/A04RhtR0imY

“people who use the dark side draw their power from miserable emotions such s fear, anger, hatred, and aggression. “
Darko, Frater Shiva pg 223

“To practice black magic you have to violate every principle of science, decency, and intelligence. You must be obsessed with an insane idea of the importance of the petty object of your wretched and selfish desires.”
Black Magic is Not a Myth
http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/black-magic.html

“It is not evil in itself. It arises from a defect of understanding. Until the Great Work has been performed, it is presumptuous for the magician to pretend to understand the universe, and dictate its policy. Only the Master of the Temple can say whether any given act is a crime.

As explained above, in another connexion, he who "destroys" any being must accept it, with all the responsibilities attached, as part of himself.

Then only are the goats, the lonely leaping mountain-masters, separated from the gregarious huddling valley-bound sheep. Then those who have well learned the lessons of the Path are ready to be torn asunder, to give up their own life to the Babe of the Abyss which is --- and is not --- they.

The others, proud in their purple, refuse. They make themselves a false crown of the Horror of the Abyss; they set the Dispersion of Choronzon upon their brows; they clothe themselves in the poisoned robes of Form; they shut themselves up; and when the force that made them what they are is exhausted, their strong towers fall, they become the Eaters of Dung in the Day of Be-with-us, and their shreds, strewn in the Abyss, are lost.

“ An adept known to The MASTER THERION once found it necessary to slay a Circe who was bewitching brethren. He merely walked to the door of her room, and drew an Astral T ("traditore", and the symbol of Saturn) with an astral dagger. Within 48 hours she shot herself.” “
CHAPTER XXI
OF BLACK MAGIC
OF THE MAIN TYPES OF THE OPERATIONS OF MAGICK ART
AND OF THE POWERS OF THE SPHINX
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/crowley/aba/chap21.htm


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dom
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29/09/2018 11:35 pm  

So you agree with my post and not Ignants?


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Tiger
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30/09/2018 12:27 am  

If a scary clown approaches you in a dark alley would you ask if they are trying to get your attention to buy their product or would you shoot first and ask questions later ?

i look at van gogh’s art but not study the human that created it . But that’s me for the time Being .

i will give you a small point

but i would have to agree with Ignant that boyd is boring, resorting to trashy gimmicks and asking for a fast usher to the door even if the door is closed .


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dom
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30/09/2018 1:54 am  

@OP I think we had a 30 page 'moral nihilism/True Will or not True Will or is there a difference anyway?' thread in the past already.


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Michael Staley
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30/09/2018 10:42 am  

@dom

@OP I think we had a 30 page ‘moral nihilism/True Will or not True Will or is there a difference anyway?’ thread in the past already.

I daresay that many new threads created overlap with threads that have been created in the past. So what? Jamie's thread is in the here-and-now, thus obviating the need to hunt out and disinter an old thread. Trebles all round, I think.


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Michael Staley
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03/10/2018 1:36 pm  

What is Black Magic anyway? In the axioms at the front of Magick in Theory and Practice Crowley expresses the view that every act is a magical act. Thus, doing the washing-up is no less magical than summoning a legion or two of goetic demons to wreak havoc at one's bidding.

Later in the same book, Crowley expresses the view that any deviation, diversion or distraction from aiming for the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is, strictly speaking, Black Magic (I can't locate the passage at present).

So what, then, is meant by Black Magic in the context of the original post of this thread? Is it something typified by the baddie in The Devil Rides Out, for instaoce?


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Shiva
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03/10/2018 5:28 pm  

MS: What is Black Magic anyway?

Black Magic is "causing change to occur wherein the magician benefits at the expense of someone else."


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Michael Staley
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03/10/2018 7:47 pm  

@Shiva

Black Magic is “causing change to occur wherein the magician benefits at the expense of someone else.”

Thanks. Yes, at first glance that seems a fairly standard definition. Of course, if every act is a magical act, and if Black Magic is causing change to occur to our benefit and at the expense of someone else, then we're all pretty much Black Magicians I'd have thought. Getting a job at the expense of other candidates, making a few bob on the sale of an item, winning the National Lottery, etc., these and a myriad similar acts make us all Black Magicians.

So the example cited in Jamie's originl post - that of Crowley slaying a Circe who he thought was bewiching Order members - is in this context pretty small beer.


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ignant666
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03/10/2018 7:57 pm  

slaying a Circe who he thought was bewi[t]ching Order members

Doesn't "a Circe who was bewitching brethren" most likely translate to "a woman who was sexually attractive, and would have sex with someone else, but not with me"?

"Small beer" indeed- as a reason to "murder" someone, this seems a bit petty!


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dom
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03/10/2018 8:32 pm  

@OP AC would admit that he fvcked up now and again hence his autobio was entitled The Confessions in which he openly admits that he didn't live up to the "moral" standards set up for him in Liber Al in other words yeah he did "black magical" things here and there.

I doubt that anyone here is Donny Osmond, Ignant has revealed a lot of stuff about himself that showed his own past shortcomings. I too have done similar here and there. Duquette has said that that's what makes AC a good prophet of the aeon, he was so human whereas Buddha, Christ and Mohammed are seen as absolutely perfect beings after their transformations. Buddha apparently ignored people who asked him unworthy questions.... pretty rude eh?


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Michael Staley
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03/10/2018 9:03 pm  

@dom

Duquette has said that that’s what makes AC a good prophet of the aeon, he was so human whereas Buddha, Christ and Mohammed are seen as absolutely perfect beings after their transformations.

The distance of hundreds of years between now and the life of Buddha, Christ and Mohammed has probably more to do with the erosion of their "so human" characteristics. If the memory of Crowley endures for similar spans of time, perhaps his rough edges will be smoothed out too.

Buddha apparently ignored people who asked him unworthy questions…. pretty rude eh?

No, not necessarily. He wasn't a performing monkey obliged to answer every damn fool question thrown at him. Why should someone humour idiots?


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Shiva
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03/10/2018 10:17 pm  

MS: if Black Magic is causing change to occur to our benefit and at the expense of someone else, then we’re all pretty much Black Magicians ...

The definition I cited was by Frater Shiva (me, himself) who determined this definition in the 1960s by himself (myself). But it's a bit tricky. Let's look closer ...

I’d have thought. Getting a job at the expense of other candidates, making a few bob on the sale of an item, winning the National Lottery, etc., these and a myriad similar acts make us all Black Magicians.+

I consider the totem-pole Theorum "Every Act is a Magickal Act" to be subject to a great deal of consideration and potential debate.

However, my definition is limited to intentional Magickal work. Such as to steal one's neighbor's wife (even if just for an hour) or bewitching his cow so he'll need to buy some from me. I include intentional mental efforts; I once had a high-ranking Mason tell me how he continually, day in and day out, purposely willed his father to die. The father soon fell sick and died. That's my definition of of Black Magic.

Now, if I compete with others and get a job (and they don't) then that falls outside my definition as I see and teach it. There is no standard for Yellow Magic, but therm implies harmony & balance. So if I have an item, and I sell it at market value, there is an even exchange. Yes the buyer looses some money, but he/she gets the item they wanted. I don't worry about this sort of thing.

But if I sell an item for ten times its market value to some unsuspecting person, then that is simply "good business sense" by the lawyers, but drifts closer to (if not "gets included in") to my Black definition.

Yes, we've all committed minor (or major) errors in keeping a level playing field, but (in my opinion) it takes a conscious and willful intent to deceive or deprive another to be Black.

Now the White Magic folks are the one's who give everything away: food, information, support, without expecting anything in return. We're all probably guilty of that form of divine foolishness in a greater or lesser degree.

We can split the hairs again, but I don't have time to delve deeper into the distinctions in this already too-long post.

Yes, I agree with your concept. We're all mixed up in black and white and the various colors in between.


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Jamie J Barter
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04/10/2018 9:35 pm  

@dom :

How can the prophet of the aeon be a ‘black magician’?
I anticipated the outrage of this remark though, didn't I, dom (tiddle-iddle-i-pom), when I rather inelegantly wrote (as now, time was tight): "But of course, being A.C. and a 9=2 and the Prophet of the New Aeon we must make an exception and excuse him from any blame as he doubtless had his own very good reasons for behaving as he did way beyond the comprehension of far less perspicacious followers and otherwise mere mortals!" And even if I had the time, I would still be hard pressed to perspicaciously paraphrase or better express the words of ignant666 in the post following and which answered yours, which I would recommend you turn to again for reference with regard to this whole question. And to which I would only state that the point is not whether or not the IX "technique" itself works, so much as that A.C. himself "clearly believed (against considerable evidence) that it did." That it would therefore achieve his objective here, i.e. the slaying of poor old cuckold Mr Foster. If only the technique worked better, it would be goodbye and RIP to him...

Moral nihilism, dom?? But aren't you implying though that A.C./ the Master Therion was meant to be one of the 'good' guys --- and wasn't he also an exalted member of that Great White Brotherhood, those hidden exemplars & Secret Big Chiefs of heap White magick?

@ MichaelStaley :

What is Black Magic anyway? [...] Later in the same book [MiT&P], Crowley expresses the view that any deviation, diversion or distraction from aiming for the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is, strictly speaking, Black Magic (I can’t locate the passage at present). So what, then, is meant by Black Magic in the context of the original post of this thread?
As the context involved Crowley, I had in mind a bit more the sense of the passage you couldn't find, and which I can't find either although I seem to remember it involved something like the raising of the complete individual in a vertical straight line in perfect balance?
A.C. --- the perfect Master of "Don't do as I do, do as I say" magick. And who, being the "prophet", dom could argue "Do what thou wilt" might also incorporate at a pinch.

@Shiva :

Black Magic is “causing change to occur wherein the magician benefits at the expense of someone else.”
Ah yes! That sounds like it could be the Devil's Dictionary definition? And if not Bierce, it damned well ought to be!

With rushed biweekly greetings from the local lib,
N Joy


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Tiger
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05/10/2018 5:49 am  

https://youtu.be/MkElfR_NPBI


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christibrany
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05/10/2018 5:21 pm  

93

In a nutshell I think it is quite simple. If you do magick in an attempt to actively harm someone, then it is black magick. Also I would add that you would have to be the person initiating the quarrel so to speak. If it was self defence then no, I don't think it is black magick. But just as in the courts, this is often hard to prove. I think it rests with the individual, if you feel your Will in that action is antagonistic/actively negative then yes it is black magick. As such, I think AC did do black magick on occasion but as he got older realised the futility from perhaps a karmic point of view?

In regards to is BM in accordance with the laws of Thelema, I think that is too complicated for me to answer 😀

93s


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christibrany
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05/10/2018 5:24 pm  

Jamie Barter

In response to your query of 'After 3 days, it seems only half a dozen lines of feedback from two posters has been generated. Can the age of the dynamic cut-and-thrust of online debating about A.C. & Thelema be well and truly over, or has the novelty of forum participation (and not just Lashtal) just worn off? As OP, I will also administer the last rites to this thread (possibly unless anyone else gets it going again)…'

I just say, I still visit here weekly, I just have less to say than I used to. I think I am in my doing-and-keeping-silent phase for the most part.

Also I prefer forums and actual webpages to social media so I don't have any of the latter. I was bemoaning the sad state of the Internet to my wife the other day, as in the 90s and early 2000s it was so much more fun and intelligent. If you were online you knew how to code your own homepage, and we made little groups and clubs. Now it is all social media trolling posting memes with no real substance. IMHO.....perhaps thats the subject for another forum.


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Jamie J Barter
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06/10/2018 5:39 pm  

As such, I think AC did do black magick on occasion but as he got older realised the futility from perhaps a karmic point of view?

Yes I agree chris, but how much older (and Wiser) did he need to get? This was 1915 when a middle-aged (40 year old) A.C., after 17 years of solid magickal work and having crossed the Abyss "fully" seven years before, then supposedly progressed to the exalted grade of Magus. So, if he hadn't managed to learn from experience by this time, what hope for all the rest of us?

(This, apart from the fact that most people would already instinctively know that basically, never mind all the snazzy axioms and definitions, "If you do magick in an attempt to actively harm someone, then it is black magick." Hence the thread's title.)

By this time, we would surely be entitled to expect a little better by way of example from someone purporting to be the Logos of the Aeon, ain't it?!

N Joy


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ignant666
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06/10/2018 8:42 pm  

[W]e would surely be entitled to expect a little better by way of example from someone purporting to be the Logos of the Aeon

Well, if we were, we would be endlessly disappointed by the facts of the man's life, wouldn't we, Jamie (as you know only too well)?

It is the old dilemma of "The Demon Crowley" purporting to be "The Prophet Of The Aeon". Either we, as david has done above, declare AC infallible, and beyond criticism in so much as the style of a cursing as it were, or else, as others have suggested, take what is useful and true, and admit the many flaws, shortcomings, lies, and bad acts that accompany the most useful guide for personal spiritual liberation yet made available.


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06/10/2018 9:40 pm  

So, if he hadn’t managed to learn from experience by this time, what hope for all the rest of us?

That's exactly where my own questioning goes, after reviewing this rather sadly comic episode.

The great Magus of the Aeon lobbed over half a dozen kill-strikes - most of them fueled by the supreme secret of IXth degree - at a feeble, elderly, uninitiated and apparently intellectually unimpressive man who STILL lived for 18 more years. This followed being obsessed with the attempt to impregnate an infertile woman who may or may not have been completely "playing" him ["Bro! Do you even Divination?" would be appropriate here]. He attempted to magickally eliminate her husband so that he could take power over her, officially wed her, and fulfill the aeonic prophecy that Gods themselves were supposedly setting in motion. In the midst of all this, he up'ed himself to the next degree with little more than a whim upon waking, then took time from his Magus duties to threaten his ex-girlfriend with a dagger and write a cowardly letter to her husband outing her affair with someone else. In the end, his solution for redeeming the episode was to dehumanize his female sexual partners into animal forms representing various initiatory Gods.

This is a prime example of why I didn't accept Crowley as an infallible spiritual guide from even the start of my Thelemic career, and now, simply content myself with gleaning what insights into the nature of the Will and its relationship to spiritual liberation can be made from such melodrama. For the record, I do think there's some worthwhile digging there. But I also don't limit myself to either his writings or example, as I haven't seen Thelema being any more successful than the religions of the previous aeons at getting folks past the tendency to float towards whatever application of scripture justifies their desires and fantasies. Even going with the more sophisticated Thelemic definition of black magick rather that than the traditional "harm"-based one, we see here that even the (supposedly) top Thelemic authority at what should be the height of his career has a grave difficulty using it to guide himself past a basic narcissistic blind spot. My concern is that the current "Nazi vs. SJW" feud that makes so many Thelemic forums a worthless timesink may be where it all goes to die, apart from a few who would have likely figured out the way to the gold in whatever spiritual framework they landed.


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Michael Staley
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06/10/2018 11:43 pm  

@SrMNA

This is a prime example of why I didn’t accept Crowley as an infallible spiritual guide from even the start of my Thelemic career

Although I agree with much of what you say, I found this statement somewhat surprising. I have never regarded anyone as being "an infallible spirirual guide" - whether it be Kenneth Grant, Austin Spare, Aleister Crowley, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ramana Maharshi, or anybody else.

@JamieBarter

This was 1915 when a middle-aged (40 year old) A.C., after 17 years of solid magickal work and having crossed the Abyss “fully” seven years before, then supposedly progressed to the exalted grade of Magus. So, if he hadn’t managed to learn from experience by this time, what hope for all the rest of us? . . . By this time, we would surely be entitled to expect a little better by way of example from someone purporting to be the Logos of the Aeon . . .

There are two things here with which I have reservations. In the first place, in my opinion it was not Aleister Crowley who was "the Logos of the Aeon" or who "progressed to the exalted grade of Magus"; rather, Aleister Crowley was a restricted and superficial aspect of a wider and deeper entity. In the second place, I think it's a mistake to expect that magical and mystical experience should make someone a "better" person. When it comes to Crowley, yes he often behaved badly, treated other people abominably, and so on and so forth. but he produced a body of work which is superb, and which triggers a great deal of insights and transformations.

There's a little too much emphasis on personality for my liking. For the last few weeks I have been developing a specific magical practice and, in common with other such practices over the years and indeed the decades, there is experience of ranges of consciousness which extend way beyond "Michael Staley", and of which "Michael Staley" is just an aspect.


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 Anonymous
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07/10/2018 12:27 am  

I have never regarded anyone as being “an infallible spiritual guide” – whether it be Kenneth Grant, Austin Spare, Aleister Crowley, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ramana Maharshi, or anybody else

Nor have I, but I spent the last 20-something years around enough who do to feel the general notice is warranted.


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Shiva
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07/10/2018 5:15 pm  

6. During the whole of this elementary study and practice he will do wisely to seek out and attach himself to, a master, one competent to correct him and advise him. Nor should he be discouraged by the difficulty of finding such a person.

7. Let him further remember that he must in no wise rely upon, or believe in, that master. He must rely entirely upon himself, and credit nothing whatever but that which lies within his own knowledge and experience.

- Liber E


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dom
 dom
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08/10/2018 12:18 am  

@ignant666 and all

Well, if we were, we would be endlessly disappointed by the facts of the man’s life, wouldn’t we, Jamie (as you know only too well)?
It is the old dilemma of “The Demon Crowley” purporting to be “The Prophet Of The Aeon”. Either we, as david has done above

I did initially but then I realized I was wrong see my #109733


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Tiger
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09/10/2018 6:46 am  

https://youtu.be/Q9AE9f6yQMc


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Shiva
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09/10/2018 4:59 pm  

"But who can tell the difference between Frater Perdurabo and the demon Crowley?"


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christibrany
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09/10/2018 10:44 pm  

Jamie,

In regards to AC, or any one purporting to be Above the Abyss, what about this idea:

The state of being ego-less, or above the Abyss, is not a constant state. Much the way that sometimes we are out of breath, and sometimes we are not (random example) depending on the amount of exertion we are doing, someone who is of the grade of MT or above, would only sometimes be in the ego-less state.

Like a rubber band, the adept is made more flexible through repeated stress and use/practise. Therefore although he (the band) was not able to stretch (reach the supernals) previously, through repetetive 'stretching' he can now occasionaly be in the state of ego-less being. However, the band must snap back, sometimes beyond the original point, as in a wave form. Does that make sense?

Just as all things in nature, humans do react in a wave pattern. This may explain how AC could at times be worse than 'normal' and at other times ego-less and possible of 'superhuman' feats.

Perhaps one could make a record, of his Record and find various 'Ascensions,' followed by 'Snap Back (negative parts),' followed by a 'baseline.'?

just an idea

93s


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dom
 dom
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09/10/2018 10:57 pm  

I was wondering how a Word of an Aeon incurs karmic penalties? Someone said that earlier. Hasn't a Word left the wheel of samsara?


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Jamie J Barter
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10/10/2018 2:52 pm  

@ignant666 :

Well, if we were [entitled to expect a little better by way of example from someone purporting to be the Logos of the Aeon] we would be endlessly disappointed by the facts of the man’s life, wouldn’t we, Jamie (as you know only too well)?
It is the old dilemma of “The Demon Crowley” purporting to be “The Prophet Of The Aeon”. Either we, as david has done above, declare AC infallible, and beyond criticism in so much as the style of a cursing as it were, or else, as others have suggested, take what is useful and true, and admit the many flaws, shortcomings, lies, and bad acts that accompany the most useful guide for personal spiritual liberation yet made available.

Yes, you're quite right of course. I suppose it must have been a matter of the triumph of hope over experience there. However this matter of would-be pre-emptive murder was of a different order to the usual antics of 'guru rascaldom' though.

Michael Staley :

There are two things here with which I have reservations. In the first place, in my opinion it was not Aleister Crowley who was “the Logos of the Aeon” or who “progressed to the exalted grade of Magus”; rather, Aleister Crowley was a restricted and superficial aspect of a wider and deeper entity. [...] There’s a little too much emphasis on personality for my liking. For the last few weeks I have been developing a specific magical practice and, in common with other such practices over the years and indeed the decades, there is experience of ranges of consciousness which extend way beyond “Michael Staley”, and of which “Michael Staley” is just an aspect.
I agree with the substance of what you are saying with the first thing, but although we may be referring to a "wider and deeper entity" it is more usual to refer to the whole being as "A.C." by way of a convenient shorthand, rather than e.g. VVVVV at the 8=3 level, To Mega Therion at 9=2, O.M. at the 7=4, etc.

Incidentally, with regard to this question of a "wider and deeper entity" - the repeated coital union involved in the IXth wasn't simply a matter of A.C. with some other magical partner, and in this case in particular was the much higher level of A.C. in the magical personality of The Beast conjoined with his Scarlet Woman (Jeanne Foster). I.e., not just simply "bad old Aleister", the demon Crowley.

In the second place, I think it’s a mistake to expect that magical and mystical experience should make someone a “better” person. When it comes to Crowley, yes he often behaved badly, treated other people abominably, and so on and so forth. but he produced a body of work which is superb, and which triggers a great deal of insights and transformations.
I don't agree with "it’s a mistake to expect that magical and mystical experience should make someone a “better” person." Surely all of the work below the grade of Adeptus Minor is to do with refining and "making better" the "elemental" parts of the personality - emotions, thought, reflexive behaviours and so on, all of which should then go to making one a more rounded individual. Otherwise, the point is ---? Is it simply just a collection of deep Trances attained?

@dom :

"AC infallible" [...] I did initially but then I realized I was wrong see my #109733
It usually takes you at least a week to change your mind about something dom, though this time you managed to do it relatively overnight. Well perhaps not quite - 3 days in fact - but, you know what I mean?! However could you explain what made the sudden volte-face with you again, and where it is you'd be coming from now?

N Joy


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ignant666
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10/10/2018 3:26 pm  

Jamie: Let's recall david has been working rather intensively at a logic course based on Russells' Principia mathematica, and be charitable in attributing his volte-face here to actual thinking through of his position and realizing he was in error.

I admit david's rather, um, volatile posting style in his pre-logic course days makes your assumption he is trolling, or muddled, plausible. He really is working at this according to arthuremerson, so let's give the kid a break here.

As to the OT: i am with Jamie on the "if spiritual advancement/initiation does not result in becoming a 'better person', it is just narcissistic wankery consisting of getting high on one's internal drug supply and digging all the pretty visions" front.

AC's "Masters are 'thrown out" to the sphere of their personality" has always struck me as a rather thin pre-emptive excuse for being an asshole. See also S.'. H.'. Fra. Los, 8=3.

Crowley would most likely reply to these critiques along the lines on which a famous Goo-Roo rebuked me as a teenager: i met Sri Swami Satchitananda of the Integral Yoga Institute when i was about 14 and taking yoga classes from IYI.

He was an imposing and distinguished old dude with the full Hindoo goo-roo drag- long flowing beard and hair, equally flowing robes, and leather sandals. I was a bit surprised by this last bit, and asked him why, as a Hindu renunciate and vegetarian, he was wearing leather sandals.

He replied [Peter Sellers Indian voice]: "If a pickpocket will look at a saint, all he will see is pockets." He didn't appear to actually have any pockets, BTW.

Still, i think even we mere un-evolved troglodytes are entitled to scoff at "Masters" who aspire to murder romantic rivals through their "siddhis".


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Shiva
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10/10/2018 5:02 pm  

D: I was wondering how a Word of an Aeon incurs karmic penalties?

One cannot become an 8=3 without somehow balancing/eradicating personal karma. Upon assuming the 8=3 position, he/she finds that there is a little thing called Cosmic Karma (or whatever you want to call it). Yes, there is a supra-personal game of cause and effect.

If a 9=2 is the Word of an Aeon, then that Word will surely stir up both support and opposition.

As long as anything can be named, or takes on a form, the opposite comes into play.

There is only one thing that allows escape from this never-ending duality (at any level), and that solution is found in Zero. The Hebrews numbered it 61, but it is also found in 8 (Atu VIII, "Balance"), 80 (T+A+O = 80), and 418 (Accomplishment of the Great Work).


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christibrany
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10/10/2018 5:58 pm  

I think that magickal and mystical work does make one a better person. I am only low on the totem pole of grades but in the past 6 years of almost daily practise I can tell that I am far more patient, thoughtful, and self critical and able to view my decision-making processes better. Of course I can be an asshole and yell at someone still but I think it happens a lot less.

Any one have any thoughts on my post above regarding behaviour and attainment re 'elasticity'?


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Michael Staley
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MANIO - it's all in the egg
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10/10/2018 8:05 pm  

@JamieJBarter

Otherwise, the point is —?

Need there be a point? I work in the field of magic and mysticism because that is what drives me, what interests me most in life, and which arouses my passion more than anything else. There's not a better way for me to spend my time and energy. I'm not doing it for a particular point, however. If it makes me a "better" person then that''s entirely incidental. Note that I don't say that this is or should be true for you or for anyone else; that's just the way I see things. I look forward to discussing it further with you sometime over a pint or two.

@ignant666

As to the OT: i am with Jamie on the “if spiritual advancement/initiation does not result in becoming a ‘better person’, it is just narcissistic wankery consisting of getting high on one’s internal drug supply and digging all the pretty visions” front.

Why is it "just narcissistic wankery" for me to pursue magic and mysticism without the goal of becoming a 'better person'? How about "discovering the truth behind so-called reality" or "seeking to attain to the heights of spiritual attainment"? Or do you think there's nothing grander or more worthwhile than being a "good" human being?

@christibrany

I think that magickal and mystical work does make one a better person.

It may well do so, but in my opinion that's a by-product.

@Shiva

There is only one thing that allows escape from this never-ending duality (at any level), and that solution is found in Zero.

At last: something I can agree with.


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ignant666
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10/10/2018 8:40 pm  

Michael: I did not mention pursuing "the goal of being a 'better person'", but rather the "result [of] becoming a 'better person'", emphasis added in both cases. You may call it a "by-product" if you like.

I think that "'discovering the truth behind so-called reality' or 'seeking to attain to the heights of spiritual attainment'" do both sound a tad narcissistic, especially the latter formulation. My understanding of Buddhism is that advanced initiates deliberately renounce "the heights of spiritual attainment" for the benefit of others.

In any case, you appear to describe an inward focus, and a privileging of internal psychological/chemical/spiritual states over interaction with others in what we jokingly call reality. I can't really see the difference between this inward-focused life, and, eg, chronic heroin use, thus my "getting high on one’s internal drug supply and digging all the pretty visions".

Or do you think there’s nothing grander or more worthwhile than being a “good” human being?

I can't think of many things "grander or more worthwhile than being a 'good' human being", but perhaps that reflects a paucity of imagination on my part.


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dom
 dom
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10/10/2018 11:23 pm  

@Shiva

D: I was wondering how a Word of an Aeon incurs karmic penalties?
One cannot become an 8=3 without somehow balancing/eradicating personal karma. Upon assuming the 8=3 position, he/she finds that there is a little thing called Cosmic Karma (or whatever you want to call it). Yes, there is a supra-personal game of cause and effect.
If a 9=2 is the Word of an Aeon, then that Word will surely stir up both support and opposition.
As long as anything can be named, or takes on a form, the opposite comes into play.
There is only one thing that allows escape from this never-ending duality (at any level), and that solution is found in Zero. The Hebrews numbered it 61, but it is also found in 8 (Atu VIII, “Balance”), 80 (T+A+O = 80), and 418 (Accomplishment of the Great Work).

Word.

@jamiebarter

It usually takes you at least a week to change your mind about something dom, though this time you managed to do it relatively overnight. Well perhaps not quite – 3 days in fact – but, you know what I mean?! However could you explain what made the sudden volte-face with you again, and where it is you’d be coming from now?

I already did. I remembered that AC initially didn't like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him like an ideal to live up to.


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 Anonymous
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11/10/2018 3:50 am  

Jamie Barter:

Surely all of the work below the grade of Adeptus Minor is to do with refining and “making better” the “elemental” parts of the personality – emotions, thought, reflexive behaviours and so on, all of which should then go to making one a more rounded individual.

This is a very important point, and one that people frequently miss in Rabelais's contribution to the understanding of Thelema*:
"Their whole life was governed not by laws, statutes or rules, but according to free will. They got up when they wanted to, drank, ate, worked, slept when they had the desire to do so. No one awakened them or forced them to drink or to eat or do anything else. . . . In their rule, there was only this regulation:
Do what you want.
because free people, well-born and learned who associate with good people have a natural gift and inclination that always impel them to act virtuously and avoid vice. They call this honor.
"

Beneath the fun and games, Rabelais is making the point about real vice vs. "thou shalt not"-vice that parallels the treatment of the "deceivers" in Liber 418, Cry of the 20th Aethyr. The deception of "the very elect" happens because of the attachment to spiritual purity, the blind spot of the Brahmin who will abuse the out-castes rather than taint themselves with their presence. The inherent morality of Thelema (regardless of how well Crowley did or did not live up to it...) is very much opposed to this kind of hypocrisy, but it is still a morality centered on the same kind of spiritual attainment that is generally indicated by the "Giving up of the self to the Beloved" (to go back to the Liber ABA quote on what constitutes black magick) in all of the traditions whose destination is the Interior sanctuary.

The morality of the L'Abbaye de Thélème is an "inverse" morality as well, since when insanity is considered sanity it's wiser to become mad, but it only *works* because the Thelemites are already have the moral construction necessary to permit them to see through the deception. For the 16th century, that meant "nobility"; for a modern initiatory society, that means the initiatory work that not only brings the perception of Truth but the cultivation of the higher order of morality that marks the "superior person" (as it is conveyed in the I Ching - not the self-righteous, self-deceiving image that almost immediately comes to mind in this age). Crowley's 1923 Tunisia comment regarding the importance of "ordinary decency" (one of his better moments) makes it clear that - at least in the context of what he's aiming for - there is a level of refinement - the apprehension of the duty of honor - that should be happening as one clears the dross that is clouding the flow of True Will (ref: Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley: Tunisia 1923, pg 21, just in case.)

This doesn't mean falling into the opposite trap of false politeness or "positive vibes only!" creatures that I'm sure most of us loathe. Thelemites should be *sharp* because there is a lot of bs to cut through. But at the same time, this is inherently a social experiment for many very valid reasons. I'm only hoping that the real life communities are faring better than the online, because frankly, it's becoming hard to answer why sane, healthy people seeking a productive spiritual praxis would want to put their time and energy into being a part of it. It's nothing but trolls all the way down from that low point, and when that's what Thelema becomes an emblem of, the contribution it can make towards the "regeneration of the little sister" is pretty much lost.

* I have to thank a nice Salesian scholar - who would be likely horrified how much his ideas have contributed to my study of the occult - for getting me started unpacking this much-overlooked connection.


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Tiger
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11/10/2018 5:34 am  

wow SrMNA
nice post
welcome !

and everyone is posting great points

here my bit
There might be sheep in human form and demons in human form
trafficking through .


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Shiva
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11/10/2018 5:33 pm  

Tiger: There might be sheep in human form and demons in human form

might be?

It's probably more like "shall be" or simply "are."


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Serpent 252
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11/10/2018 10:31 pm  

@christibrany

Your "post above regarding behaviour and attainment re 'elasticity'" has reminded me to a following AC's writing:

"As soon as I had destroyed my personality, as soon as I had expelled my ego, the universe which to it was indeed a frightful and fatal force, fraught with every form of fear, was so only in relation to this idea “I”; so long as “I am I”, all else must seem hostile. Now that there was no longer any “I” to suffer, all these ideas which had inflicted suffering became innocent. I could praise the perfection of every part; I could wonder and worship the whole. This attainment absolutely altered my outlook. Of course, I did not at once enter into full enjoyment. The habit of misunderstanding everything had to be broken, bit by bit. I had to explore every possibility and transmute each base metal in turn into gold. It was years before I got into the habit of falling in love a(t) first sight with everything that came my way." (AC, The Confessions, ch.66; you may check in online at https://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter66, or in (the book),e.g., in The Equinox IV/2, p.26)

This whole thread has been great; I've learned much more about the fellow Lashtalians than usually; and nothing new about AC, of course.

Mr.Churton says "There never seems a simple way of getting Crowleyan material to the public! He still excites the most extraordinary reactions – not only in his opponents, but among his devoted fans too." (An Interview with Tobias Churton, https://www.lashtal.com/2209-old-article/)

Funny thing, I am unable to see Lashtalians neither as the AC's opponents nor as his devoted fans.

"All is fair in love and war." No, it seems it isn't.


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Serpent 252
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11/10/2018 11:31 pm  

@christibrany

Your "post above regarding behaviour and attainment re 'elasticity'" has reminded me to the following AC's writing:

"As soon as I had destroyed my personality, as soon as I had expelled my ego, the universe which to it was indeed a frightful and fatal force, fraught with every form of fear, was so only in relation to this idea “I”; so long as “I am I”, all else must seem hostile. Now that there was no longer any “I” to suffer, all these ideas which had inflicted suffering became innocent. I could praise the perfection of every part; I could wonder and worship the whole. This attainment absolutely altered my outlook. Of course, I did not at once enter into full enjoyment. The habit of misunderstanding everything had to be broken, bit by bit. I had to explore every possibility and transmute each base metal in turn into gold. It was years before I got into the habit of falling in love a(t) first sight with everything that came my way." (AC, The Confessions, ch.66; you may check in online at https://hermetic.com/crowley/confessions/chapter66, or in (the book),e.g., in The Equinox IV/2, p.26)

This whole thread has been great; I've learned much more about the fellow Lashtalians than usually; and nothing new about AC, of course.

Mr.Churton says "There never seems a simple way of getting Crowleyan material to the public! He still excites the most extraordinary reactions – not only in his opponents, but among his devoted fans too." (An Interview with Tobias Churton, https://www.lashtal.com/2209-old-article/)

Funny thing, I am unable to see Lashtalians neither as the AC's opponents nor as his devoted fans.

"All is fair in love and war." No, it seems it isn't.


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dom
 dom
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11/10/2018 11:34 pm  

Crowley wrote somewhere that the desire to kill someone (ie out of a grudge etc) is weakness because you're killing a part of yourself.

Yeah he was a hypocrite now and again. Some of the sexist sh1t he wrote against women belies the noble things he wrote about women in the commentaries.

Traditionally organized religion caters to the human weak need to project and idealize some messiah guru e.g. Mohammed, Buddha etc.

How could one idealize Crowley? Haha , maybe that's why he was chosen.


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Falcon
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12/10/2018 2:40 am  

Some years ago I wrote an occult booklet on Magick which included a "death curse" for research purposes (I was a member of an Egyptology Society) but the point is I never personally performed such a rite (but did so in regard to some of the 'grey' sex-magick/sigil magick rites) and warned readers of the dangers involved and not to try it - except where an individual had been seriously wronged. My booklet is still being advertised and distributed by the publisher but I have moved on these days.

"...I have been accused of being a “black magician.” No more foolish statement was ever made about me. I despise the thing to such an extent that I can hardly believe in the existence of people so debased and idiotic as to practice it.

Black Mass

In Paris, and even in London, there are misguided people who are abusing their priceless spiritual gifts to obtain petty and temporary advantages through these practices.

The “Black Mass” is a totally different matter.

I could not celebrate it if I wanted to, for I am not a consecrated priest of the Christian Church.

The celebrant must be a priest, for the whole idea of the practice is to profane the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Therefore you must believe in the truth of the cult and the efficacy of its ritual.

A renegade priest gathers about him a congregation of sensation-hunters and religious fanatics; then only can the ceremonies of profanation be of extended black magical effect.

There are many ways of abusing the Sacrament. One of the best known of which is the “Mass of Saint Secaire,” the purpose of which is to cause an enemy to wither away.

At this “mass,” always held in some secret place, preferably in a disused chapel, at midnight, the priest appears in canonical robes.

But even in his robes there is some sinister change, a perversion of their symbolic sanctity.

There is an altar, but the candles are of black wax. The crucifix is fixed the head downwards.

The clerk to the priest is a woman, and her dress, although it seems to be a church garment, is more like a costume in a prurient revue. It has been altered to make it indecent.

The ceremony is a parody of the orthodox Mass, with blasphemous interpolations.

The priest must be careful, however, to consecrate the Host in the orthodox manner. The wine has been adulterated with magical drugs like deadly nightshade and vervain, but the priest must convert it into the blood of Christ.

The dreadful basis of the Mass is that the bread and wine have imprisoned the Deity. Then they are subjected to terrible profanations.

Indescribable

This is supposed to release the powers of evil and bring them into alliance. (It is rather the case of the mouse trying to make a friend of the cat!)

In the congregational form of the Black Mass the priest, having finished his abominations— these are, quite frankly, indescribable— scatters the fragments of the Host on the floor, and the assistants scramble for the soiled fragments, the possession of which, they believe, will allow them to work their petty and malicious designs.

My most memorable personal experience of the effects of black magic occurred when I was living in Scotland. The machinations of a degraded and outcast member of the Order caused my hounds to die, my servants to become insane. The struggle lasted until the recoil of the current of hated caused the luckless sorcerer to collapse.

The explanation of its effects is that, if you believe passionately enough in your will to do something, then power to achieve it will accrue to you.

My enemies say that the celebration of the “Black Mass” was one of the most innocuous of my activities in Sicily and in France.

“Why was he thrown out of both those countries?” they ask.

The explanation of why I left is quite simple and unsensational. I took a villa at Cefalu in Sicily for work and play. We began the day with family prayers; we occasionally celebrated a semi-religious ceremony known as the Gnostic Mass.

Several people who were my guests at the “abbey” made imaginative copy out of their visits.

Then the Fascists came into power and some foreign newspaper correspondents were asked to leave.

And so was I. There was no rough turning-out. I was treated with the greatest of courtesy.

The reason I left Paris was that the authorities refused to renew my carte d’identité. No charge was made against me; and no explanation given.

Somebody I had quarreled with had gone to the authorities and succeeded in making them think that something was wrong."

http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/black-magic.html


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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12/10/2018 4:06 am  

Tiger:

There might be sheep in human form and demons in human form
trafficking through

Absolutely. And not just out there, but within our myriad internal selves/desires that will propel us this way and that if we're not careful. That's why I believe that discernment is one of the most critical skills that we can cultivate in this business. I've always liked Crowley's work for that reason...it's really good terrain for training a strong truthsense.

Thanks for the welcome!
.


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Tiger
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12/10/2018 5:24 am  

The configuration, ogling the channel ; in the mind stream zone; entangled in a bandwidth resounding off the cranium; slinging snap enveloped in another feasible bandwidth
simply “are.”
gonna have ta re read The Master Codex
Mighty book that !

Absolutely. And not just out there, but within our myriad internal selves/desires that will propel us this way and that if we’re not careful.

That’s why I believe that discernment is one of the most critical skills that we can cultivate in this business.

I’ve always liked Crowley’s work for that reason…it’s really good terrain for training a strong truthsense

nice .

discernment arts training dojo
yeah need to better that !


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 Anonymous
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12/10/2018 5:50 am  

Christibrany: Any one have any thoughts on my post above regarding behaviour and attainment re ‘elasticity’? (Adding them in with the response to the quote Serpent 252 gave us)

Serpent 252:

“As soon as I had destroyed my personality, as soon as I had expelled my ego..."

That's a great quote to bring into the discussion. We have to consider what a young science psychology was at the time of Crowley's writing, with the neuroscience that we have access to today non-existent. With what is being discovered about personality development on how it starts being formed along with the cellular makeup of our bodies & brains and "cements" after birth, I think we need to re-examine this idea of "destroying" the personality or ego. It's a fundamental part of the experience and lesson of one's present incarnation. "Expelling" is a closer term - like breath, we can expel it momentarily, but if you're going to stay on this plane, it's going to have to come back in. But we have to break the spell of it in order to understand that the personality itself, which so dominates our sense of identity, is really no more important in the ultimate reality of each being than eye color.

Of course, I did not at once enter into full enjoyment. The habit of misunderstanding everything had to be broken, bit by bit. I had to explore every possibility and transmute each base metal in turn into gold. It was years before I got into the habit of falling in love a(t) first sight with everything that came my way.

What I see in this passage is a description of neuroplasticity. Without an intentional push to continually grow from experience, plasticity is lost as we age; yet with initiatory work, we change and redesign the basic stuff we are born with, including the personality. This process is far too complex to simply be something that we *think* our way through, hence the difficulty of doing it by the traditional "sit under a tree and navel-gaze" method...it's too easy for the personality to take the seat right along with us and never get knocked out of the driver''s role. One of the insights that Crowley brings to the understanding of the process is that the surrender of that "I am I" self to Babalon - the reality of the world in all its untamable glory - can be a more effective way of getting there, since it follows the natural process we know as "falling in love." There's a reason Eros is called Eleutherios.

Hence, I think it's a mistake to attach the ideas of Beast & Babalon/Scarlet Woman to even physical gender, much less the identity born of the personality, and the "Hilarion" episode is a great illustration of that argument.

Serpent 252:"Funny thing, I am unable to see Lashtalians neither as the AC’s opponents nor as his devoted fans."

🙂 I can be both simultaneously at times, but also see Crowley as just one out of many minds wrestling the same problems. When it comes to this problem of how to get around the personality - not just for the momentary burst of expansion, but for long term results - there's other methods that have worked better for me than relying too strictly on the path he cut. But for this cradle-to-grave ride, at least, his Work has played a major role, and I do give credit and thanks for that, problematic bits and all.


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