Home Forums Thelema Thelema Aleister Crowley — Black Magician?

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    Crowley wrote somewhere that the desire to kill someone (ie out of a grudge etc) is weakness because you’re killing a part of yourself.

    Yeah he was a hypocrite now and again. Some of the sexist sh1t he wrote against women belies the noble things he wrote about women in the commentaries.

    Traditionally organized religion caters to the human weak need to project and idealize some messiah guru e.g. Mohammed, Buddha etc.

    How could one idealize Crowley? Haha , maybe that’s why he was chosen.



    Some years ago I wrote an occult booklet on Magick which included a “death curse” for research purposes (I was a member of an Egyptology Society) but the point is I never personally performed such a rite (but did so in regard to some of the ‘grey’ sex-magick/sigil magick rites) and warned readers of the dangers involved and not to try it – except where an individual had been seriously wronged. My booklet is still being advertised and distributed by the publisher but I have moved on these days.

    “…I have been accused of being a “black magician.” No more foolish statement was ever made about me. I despise the thing to such an extent that I can hardly believe in the existence of people so debased and idiotic as to practice it.

    Black Mass

    In Paris, and even in London, there are misguided people who are abusing their priceless spiritual gifts to obtain petty and temporary advantages through these practices.

    The “Black Mass” is a totally different matter.

    I could not celebrate it if I wanted to, for I am not a consecrated priest of the Christian Church.

    The celebrant must be a priest, for the whole idea of the practice is to profane the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Therefore you must believe in the truth of the cult and the efficacy of its ritual.

    A renegade priest gathers about him a congregation of sensation-hunters and religious fanatics; then only can the ceremonies of profanation be of extended black magical effect.

    There are many ways of abusing the Sacrament. One of the best known of which is the “Mass of Saint Secaire,” the purpose of which is to cause an enemy to wither away.

    At this “mass,” always held in some secret place, preferably in a disused chapel, at midnight, the priest appears in canonical robes.

    But even in his robes there is some sinister change, a perversion of their symbolic sanctity.

    There is an altar, but the candles are of black wax. The crucifix is fixed the head downwards.

    The clerk to the priest is a woman, and her dress, although it seems to be a church garment, is more like a costume in a prurient revue. It has been altered to make it indecent.

    The ceremony is a parody of the orthodox Mass, with blasphemous interpolations.

    The priest must be careful, however, to consecrate the Host in the orthodox manner. The wine has been adulterated with magical drugs like deadly nightshade and vervain, but the priest must convert it into the blood of Christ.

    The dreadful basis of the Mass is that the bread and wine have imprisoned the Deity. Then they are subjected to terrible profanations.


    This is supposed to release the powers of evil and bring them into alliance. (It is rather the case of the mouse trying to make a friend of the cat!)

    In the congregational form of the Black Mass the priest, having finished his abominations— these are, quite frankly, indescribable— scatters the fragments of the Host on the floor, and the assistants scramble for the soiled fragments, the possession of which, they believe, will allow them to work their petty and malicious designs.

    My most memorable personal experience of the effects of black magic occurred when I was living in Scotland. The machinations of a degraded and outcast member of the Order caused my hounds to die, my servants to become insane. The struggle lasted until the recoil of the current of hated caused the luckless sorcerer to collapse.

    The explanation of its effects is that, if you believe passionately enough in your will to do something, then power to achieve it will accrue to you.

    My enemies say that the celebration of the “Black Mass” was one of the most innocuous of my activities in Sicily and in France.

    “Why was he thrown out of both those countries?” they ask.

    The explanation of why I left is quite simple and unsensational. I took a villa at Cefalu in Sicily for work and play. We began the day with family prayers; we occasionally celebrated a semi-religious ceremony known as the Gnostic Mass.

    Several people who were my guests at the “abbey” made imaginative copy out of their visits.

    Then the Fascists came into power and some foreign newspaper correspondents were asked to leave.

    And so was I. There was no rough turning-out. I was treated with the greatest of courtesy.

    The reason I left Paris was that the authorities refused to renew my carte d’identité. No charge was made against me; and no explanation given.

    Somebody I had quarreled with had gone to the authorities and succeeded in making them think that something was wrong.”





    There might be sheep in human form and demons in human form
    trafficking through

    Absolutely. And not just out there, but within our myriad internal selves/desires that will propel us this way and that if we’re not careful. That’s why I believe that discernment is one of the most critical skills that we can cultivate in this business. I’ve always liked Crowley’s work for that reason…it’s really good terrain for training a strong truthsense.

    Thanks for the welcome!



    The configuration, ogling the channel ; in the mind stream zone; entangled in a bandwidth resounding off the cranium; slinging snap enveloped in another feasible bandwidth
    simply “are.”
    gonna have ta re read The Master Codex
    Mighty book that !

    Absolutely. And not just out there, but within our myriad internal selves/desires that will propel us this way and that if we’re not careful.

    That’s why I believe that discernment is one of the most critical skills that we can cultivate in this business.

    I’ve always liked Crowley’s work for that reason…it’s really good terrain for training a strong truthsense

    nice .

    discernment arts training dojo
    yeah need to better that !



    Christibrany: Any one have any thoughts on my post above regarding behaviour and attainment re ‘elasticity’? (Adding them in with the response to the quote Serpent 252 gave us)

    Serpent 252:

    “As soon as I had destroyed my personality, as soon as I had expelled my ego…”

    That’s a great quote to bring into the discussion. We have to consider what a young science psychology was at the time of Crowley’s writing, with the neuroscience that we have access to today non-existent. With what is being discovered about personality development on how it starts being formed along with the cellular makeup of our bodies & brains and “cements” after birth, I think we need to re-examine this idea of “destroying” the personality or ego. It’s a fundamental part of the experience and lesson of one’s present incarnation. “Expelling” is a closer term – like breath, we can expel it momentarily, but if you’re going to stay on this plane, it’s going to have to come back in. But we have to break the spell of it in order to understand that the personality itself, which so dominates our sense of identity, is really no more important in the ultimate reality of each being than eye color.

    Of course, I did not at once enter into full enjoyment. The habit of misunderstanding everything had to be broken, bit by bit. I had to explore every possibility and transmute each base metal in turn into gold. It was years before I got into the habit of falling in love a(t) first sight with everything that came my way.

    What I see in this passage is a description of neuroplasticity. Without an intentional push to continually grow from experience, plasticity is lost as we age; yet with initiatory work, we change and redesign the basic stuff we are born with, including the personality. This process is far too complex to simply be something that we *think* our way through, hence the difficulty of doing it by the traditional “sit under a tree and navel-gaze” method…it’s too easy for the personality to take the seat right along with us and never get knocked out of the driver”s role. One of the insights that Crowley brings to the understanding of the process is that the surrender of that “I am I” self to Babalon – the reality of the world in all its untamable glory – can be a more effective way of getting there, since it follows the natural process we know as “falling in love.” There’s a reason Eros is called Eleutherios.

    Hence, I think it’s a mistake to attach the ideas of Beast & Babalon/Scarlet Woman to even physical gender, much less the identity born of the personality, and the “Hilarion” episode is a great illustration of that argument.

    Serpent 252:”Funny thing, I am unable to see Lashtalians neither as the AC’s opponents nor as his devoted fans.

    🙂 I can be both simultaneously at times, but also see Crowley as just one out of many minds wrestling the same problems. When it comes to this problem of how to get around the personality – not just for the momentary burst of expansion, but for long term results – there’s other methods that have worked better for me than relying too strictly on the path he cut. But for this cradle-to-grave ride, at least, his Work has played a major role, and I do give credit and thanks for that, problematic bits and all.



    or perhaps believe that “the demon Crowley” is above criticism as the earthly vehicle of Thelema.

    question everything.

    Anyone who knows much about his life knows that Crowley was often a horrible person, who said and did terrible, shameful things, and then lied about them. He saw himself as the victim of every life-circumstance,

    I know that guy

    Of course, the real secret of the OTO is that the IX “technique” doesn’t work.
    But AC clearly believed (against considerable evidence) that it did.

    sounds like a ufc chokehold “and he tried the IX technique in round two with 93 seconds on the clock”

    Norma Conquest
    @MichaelStaley :

    I know I’ve wished specific people dead at various times over the years, but those people are still in the land of the living so far as I know. Was I attempting Black Magic thereby? Yes, I suppose I was.
    Come, come Michael: there’s a significant whole world of difference between a momentary passing wish and a carefully thought out and executed pre-meditated plan of action, however.

    I’ve no doubt everyone’s experienced a momentary outburst of ill temper – such as, an explosion of road rage at someone cutting you up in traffic where one’s provoked to wind down the window and yell at them to “drop dead, you moron” without actually expecting them to expire on the spot as a result. Likewise, describing a similar incident to someone else saying “I could have Killed that bastard” – nobody really expects them to go ahead and do anything of the sort. However from the description given this episode doesn’t belong to this category, does it?

    In my humble opinion, I believe there is a distinct difference and it’s pure will
    you could perform millions of rituals and not get a result, no matter the mindset you get into..

    and you purposely could will it a million ways and still no result

    the universe only opens her gifts when conditions are met, so no little kid or would be upstart would hold that gift inside themselves. Not every being opens that gift or even sees it, Otherwise our universe would of been destroyed long ago or ceased to exist.

    You can only open that one when you have learned to control it ..but.. that’s a conundrum because pure will is all about not control lol … this one though is all about careful control.. see above statement on universe destruction

    what I could write about this one.. but ya know? waffle lol.. I will keep silent .. just to surprise you ..*faints oh the discipline lol
    but suffice to say pure will… it happens.. it’s happened

    Black Magic is “causing change to occur wherein the magician benefits at the expense of someone else.”

    Hi Shiva how are you

    interesting conversation

    black magic is then magic indeed, sleight of hand, bullcrap, nota magician a con artist nothing to do with magick there can be no black magick no white magick there is only magick

    What is Black Magic anyway? In the axioms at the front of Magick in Theory and Practice Crowley expresses the view that every act is a magical act. Thus, doing the washing-up is no less magical than summoning a legion or two of goetic demons to wreak havoc at one’s bidding.

    every action has a reaction

    Later in the same book, Crowley expresses the view that any deviation, diversion or distraction from aiming for the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel is, strictly speaking, Black Magic (I can’t locate the passage at present).

    thanks Michael, gives me something to read, maybe I need to see it in context 😉
    anyway that would sort of point to the world as we know it being black magic and that opens a whole new trail…and then there is the fools journey .. one thing comes to mind is “I made the choices I made with the tools I had at the time”

    So what, then, is meant by Black Magic in the context of the original post of this thread? Is it something typified by the baddie in The Devil Rides Out, for instaoce?

    I’ll have to read about that one to find a correlation
    I’m sure I know that baddie, rings a bell …

    The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another?

    yes it says so in book of the law

    to quote from memory

    Strike them hard
    hmm I know other parts but to be exact Ill go grab to quote .. brb with more non waffle



    So in my limited knowledge, the holy books of thelema include the book of the law as a mainstay of “the way” and it is a “bible/quran”

    44. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.
    oh here we are… what I was trying to describe in my last post

    30. If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.
    then power is not the same as will
    31. If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.
    no, if power asks why it is strength but it can also be weak if it wants or is required.. that’s power, to get it …… ask whyand not wanting it helps .. nothing to do with the op question but it was one of those moments

    ah here it is the moonbeam

    18. Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!
    there you go … hadit 18

    so yes it is in accordance with my knowledge of the law of thelema to actively wish the death of another

    whether you do or don’t is an individual thing …success or failure at that “magick” “wish” is a different answer to a question that may follow

    death can be an easy way out ..

    May I ask, why did you ask this question Norma? you have been around here for years so I guess I figured you would already have this one down pat

    ps what is this IX technique of the OTO?

    • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by  pegasus.


    P: … Norma? you have been around here for years so I guess I figured you would already have this one down pat

    It is likely that he (NormaN) put up this topic for discussion, rather than as a question for his own knowledge.



    ps what is this IX technique of the OTO?

    Oh please. If you have been reading this site long enough to know Jamie has been around for years, you are either being disingenuous, or are abnormally incurious.

    In the unlikely event your question is sincere, the OTO IX degree technique essentially consists of a male magician having sexual intercourse with a female partner (who need not be aware that anything other than ordinary intercourse is going on) while concentrating on the desired outcome; the magician then orally recovers semen and female sexual fluids from the partner. This “elixir” may be consumed by the magician alone, shared with the female partner, smeared on a talisman, or sold on the commercial market (as AC did).

    If this technique actually worked, Matlack Foster would have died, and Crowley would probably not have died with the Abramelin talisman “To Find A Great Treasure” either in his pocket or under his pillow, as he would have been very, very rich from the dozens, if not hundreds, of IX opera done over the years to get money.

    Also, the (c)OTO would be the rich and powerful organization it is not, and would be presumably be rapidly creating more IXs in pursuit of world domination as envisioned by the Blue Equinox, rather than being a rather obscure club for folks that like to play dress-up, that almost never creates a new IX.

    • This reply was modified 8 months, 2 weeks ago by  ignant666.


    SrMNA I agree with what you said above, I think that’s exactly it.

    Also my interpretation of elasticity in regards to the ego in personality [after attaining grades above the Abyss] could also be said to be, that one is simply too weak in our current state to hold an ego-less state for long. It would cause the ‘band’ to snap, and we would perhaps go catatonic/mad?



    Although I don’t see much success from the IX in AC or even my own records, I have actually had ‘better than the odds’ success with the VIII interestingly enough in the past, in getting a job, girlfriend then wife, money etc within the week of the ‘work.’ Using the AOS sigil formula… different thread perhaps



    christibrany: “…that one is simply too weak in our current state to hold an ego-less state for long. It would cause the ‘band’ to snap, and we would perhaps go catatonic/mad?”

    I can only speak from my experience in this; I’m cautious about speculating about what happens beyond whatever point I’m at, as the expectations can make things cloudy. I don’t put a lot of stock in Crowley’s degree attainments, and what he makes of them as a degree system, as by this point he’s the one handing out his own degrees, and he does display some narcissistic tendencies that can bias that perception.

    But what I have observed so far is that people work in extended “ego-less” states all the time, usually when engaged in work that is marked by the state of flow (Csíkszentmihályi’s theory, which for me is one of the big road signs of “Doing Will”.) The way I understand it, the ego is merely the part that orients our individual desires to the rest of society and its requirements, related to the individual “life” of the nefesh. It’s the part that kicks back in after the artwork is finished and says, “Great…what can I get for that? Rent’s due.” The time it takes for this drive to reassert itself is influenced by whatever work you’ve done in setting things up where you don’t have to be concerned with that question, or the rationale/psychological framework that you’ve developed that makes the question less important to you. (And insanity can take care of that last bit as easily as faith in divine/magickal providence.) Problem is that unless one is either incredibly well put-together or exceptionally lucky in life, the nefesh is loaded with “lessons learned” (some of them genetically inherited) and traumas that are going to kick back harder the more one gains the ability to tap the expanded channel…unless one works to integrate that resistance into the Work. Initiatory work – the moral & life skills development side, especially – is supposed to be gradually developing the framework that allows you to expand that awareness of “life beyond the Abyss” without it being perceived as such a hostile environment for the “I”.

    Most of the people I’ve been around who are truly great either have massive scars from the fight they’ve had to face in pursuit of their gifts, dreams and self-determination (usually against obstacles that take out the less driven folks), or else they are in a privileged position where they can easily lose touch with the kind of dance between self and society that more commonly constrains other egos. One of my most beloved mentors was an incredible woman, gifted by both talent and wealth, with an amazing heart…but she was merciless in the studio and generally couldn’t comprehend the kind of suffering I faced on the “streets,” causing her to be rather oppressive to work under at times. I’ve loved a lot of teachers who could be monstrous in those upper ranges, which does support what various experts have said about K&C & beyond involving a state that is rather alien to the state of human relationships.

    Hope that helps…and thanks to the Lashtalian regulars for a quality of discussion that has become pretty rare.



    Shiva .. P: … Norma? you have been around here for years so I guess I figured you would already have this one down pat

    It is likely that he (NormaN) put up this topic for discussion, rather than as a question for his own knowledge.

    Fair call .. and thank you Shiva for the correction of the Sex or gender or whatever they call it these days of Norman. I wasn’t sure, assumptions got me again.. I’d say it is “stuck” conditioning on my part but I still separate ones into the two, male or female for species who use meiosis as cell reproduction.

    Which leads me down yet another rabbit hole quest for more knowledge. For example a question “as humans reproduce via meiosis, then does this relatively recent alphabet soup of new genders show an advance sign of decay/ destruction/ death/ damage/ of total species” “Does every species reach that tipping point from growth to peak and then destruction” base – apex – base …………….”divided for chance of union” ????? “What happens when the magnetic forces are damaged from decay and growth overall stops and stagnates” so much to learn and discover

    Contrary to the below quote, it was/is indeed a fascinating topic for me and I have only just started disassembling it.

    Oh please. If you have been reading this site long enough to know Jamie has been around for years, you are either being disingenuous, or are abnormally incurious.

    In the unlikely event your question is sincere

    back at you Ignorant666 with a “my gosh you are nasty and condescending towards someone I guess you perceive to be far lower than yourself. Thank you for the slap down. I bow down and humble myself before your superior self. Please forgive my feeble foolish folly of questioning and learning.
    Sunshine and Puppies
    Sincerely Incurious



    demons in human form
    trafficking through

    not just out there, but within our myriad internal selves/desires
    oh and they also leap

    sometimes answers
    appear in the medium

    when awakened to it
    or dreaming U
    in a medium

    Choronzon trafficking in the mind stuff



    and of course gladly naturally let the contour take its course

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