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  • #109852

    Tiger
    Participant

    and aid

    #109854

    ignant666
    Participant

    Golly, pegasus!

    I apologize for offending.

    I would have thought it reasonable to assume that any person interested enough in Crowley to read this site for years might perhaps have read a book, or a couple wikipedia articles about him, in which case one would have probably have heard of the IX method, aka sex magick, since it is one of the most commonly discussed aspects of his work.

    Many sources are more coy about exactly what is involved than i was, but i don’t think this is exactly obscure information. Googling “OTO IX technique” will produce many resources for further study.

    #109860

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @ Michael Staley :

    Need there be a point?
    Most definitely yes — that splendid alternative to just dossing around, the Accomplishment of the Great Work!

    Note that I don’t say that this is or should be true for you or for anyone else; that’s just the way I see things.
    (To be sung to the refrain of ‘For he’s a jolly good fellow”): …And so say all of Us!

    I look forward to discussing it further with you sometime over a pint or two.
    Yes, do you happen to recollect the last time we did that? “It was twenty years ago today” (very circa) – I even recall the venue, not the Angel & Feathers of famed repute but The Falkland Arms in Holborn – but I don’t recall whose round it is, though!?

    @dom :

    I was wondering how a Word of an Aeon incurs karmic penalties? Someone said that earlier.
    Do you have the specific reference? Was it in this thread? And as to the actual question itself dom, I refer you to what the late Gerald Suster (bless him!) liked to call “the three most honest words in the English language” — I don’t know.

    I already did. I remembered that AC initially didn’t like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him
    Sorry but I don’t see the connection –– this maps into the question of A.C.’s infallibility (or not) how, exactly? (And by the way the story according to Confessions – which you’ve read hundreds of times – was that he stowed Liber AL away in his loft under some skis, not “a cupboard”).

    like an ideal to live up to.
    What — you mean like ‘kill & torture’ and ‘drag down their souls to awful torment’?

    @ Soror MNA :

    Greetings and I agree with much of your sensible postings & also don’t think anyone has ever been able to deny the very significant influence its Rabelaisian antecedent had upon the creation of “Crowleian Thelema”.

    Crowley’s 1923 Tunisia comment regarding the importance of “ordinary decency” (one of his better moments) makes it clear that – at least in the context of what he’s aiming for – there is a level of refinement – the apprehension of the duty of honor – that should be happening as one clears the dross that is clouding the flow of True Will
    Yes, this is the theory at least. It’s the practice though which unhappily doesn’t seem to be quite adding up as it should… And it was just after this, I think, that A.C. wrote the otherwise fine essay “Duty”, in which he laid out all the moral points which ought to have a bearing upon Thelemic behaviour by the individual, e.g. not committing robbery, etc. That’s if s/he was doing everything right, of course… just like A.C. said they should! (But not having the text in front of me, I can’t remember if there was actually anything in it along the lines of ‘thou shalt not commit murder’, however.)

    @christibrany :

    In regards to AC, or any one purporting to be Above the Abyss, what about this idea: The state of being ego-less, or above the Abyss, is not a constant state. […] someone who is of the grade of MT or above, would only sometimes be in the ego-less state.
    A verse in Liber Pennae Praenumbra from Sr Nema summed it up rather well, I thought: “Constant watchfulness is the first Act – the Abyss is crossed by minutes, every day” (Incidentally, not being a Class A text I think it’s even neater to regard “minutes” as in the sense of “minute measures” there).

    Perhaps one could make a record, of his Record and find various ‘Ascensions,’ followed by ‘Snap Back (negative parts),’ followed by a ‘baseline.’? just an idea
    Over what period of time – his whole lifetime? One particular difficulty would be that there are quite large gaps in his Record, for one reason or another, which would make a consistent or thorough analysis troublesome.

    Your rubber band analogy had me idly wondering… what does it represent when it gets stretched so far it breaks apart, or when its elasticity gets fatigued?!

    @pegasus :

    “The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another?”
    yes it says so in book of the law / to quote from memory / Strike them hard

    This is not actively wishing to cause the death of another – strike here doesn’t even have to be physical, it could be e.g. a put-down in the form of words.

    ah here it is the moonbeam / 18. Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!
    there you go … so yes it is in accordance with my knowledge of the law of thelema to actively wish the death of another

    The esoterick use of the words Kill (and Death) can also (not always) mean: (to cause) change in consciousness/ perception to occur from a former state.

    May I ask, why did you ask this question Norma
    Which question? If you mean the above “Is it in accordance…(etc)”, the answer was stated in the first part: ‘for opinion and debate’. Which I have to say seems to be going surprisingly & unexpectedly uncommonly well on the whole, so far.

    N Joy

    #109874

    dom
    Participant

    @jamiebarter

    Do you have the specific reference? Was it in this thread?

    This question was already by Shiva in #109792 of this thread.

    I already did. I remembered that AC initially didn’t like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him ~ dom.

    Sorry but I don’t see the connection –– this maps into the question of A.C.’s infallibility (or not) how, exactly?

    I wasn’t discussing infallibility but the opposite, his self-confessed flaws which include trying to kill someone ‘magically’.

    like an ideal to live up to.

    What — you mean like ‘kill & torture’ and ‘drag down their souls to awful torment’?

    So ‘magical energy’ is like electricity, it’s not inherently ‘evil’ or ‘good’. It can be used by someone who was negatively conditioned by a family/’guardian’ as a child and by someone who was not was negatively conditioned by a family/’guardian’ as a child.

    Does Criowley’s Thelemic practices deal with childhood conditioning issues? No they don’t.

    ~ Blazing Saddles.

    #109876

    Shiva
    Participant

    Dom: … his self-confessed flaws which include trying to kill someone ‘magically’.

    Maybe something is being missed here.

    Therion said he slayed a Circe. Too bad I don’t know what a Circe is, but it’s obviously not good. Sort of like a vampire.

    Well, have we stopped to consider that he slayed the overshadowing, possessing Circe, but left the human host intact? Yes, I know this is a stretch, but it has a basis …

    I was taught to “never use a pentagram on a human being.” So, one day in 1976, Frater Mont’s girlfriend underwent one of her many flip-outs. I had heard about them, but then I walked into one. She was over-the-edge insane. I asked her if she wanted help. She said “Yes.” So I sat her down on a stool and shot a pentagram into her back at the level of the Solar Plexus. She immediately regained her normal, sane composure.

    “Thank you,” she said.

    #109877

    ignant666
    Participant

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circe

    Once more, the most likely translation of AC’s “a Circe who was bewitching brethren” is “a woman who was sexually attractive, and would have sex with someone else, but not with me”.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  ignant666.
    #109879

    Serpent 252
    Participant

    Circe was Jeanne Heyse (stage name Ione de Forest), who participated in AC’s The Rites of Eleusis. Both Churton and Kaczynski have written about her.

    (I have .epub versions of both biographies, which (epubs) I’ve converted to .pdf, so I cannot give you the exact numbers of pages in the printed books. I’ll try to quote here just the important bits.)

    “A chronic depressive, Jeanne committed suicide in 1912. Neuburg never got over it, later blaming Crowley for sending him off from a ritual in such a state of mind that when Jeanne asked for help, he rejected her. This story has been cooked to imply the actress’s suicide was Crowley’s doing, another myth for sure, but one Crowley helped to stoke. So upset was Crowley at Neuburg’s obsession with Jeanne, and at Neuburg’s subsequent rejection of him, he used the myth to warn of what could happen to those who interfered with initiates’ progress, almost claiming credit for tipping Jeanne over the edge in chapter 21 of Magick: (…)” (T. Churton, AC, The Biography, Chapter 12)

    “In December 1911 she [Jeanne Heyse] also married engraver Wilfred Merton (1888–1957), a Trinity College graduate and avid book collector credited with rescuing “the once–famous Chiswick Press,” who had printed Crowley’s early works. She nevertheless carried on an affair with Victor Neuburg; this resulted in Wilfred naming both Jeanne and Victor as respondents in a divorce complaint. (R. Kaczynski, Perdurabo, Chapter 11)

    ” (…) Jeanne had shot herself [on August 1–2, 1912] through the heart with a pearl–handled revolver. On a nearby table was a copy of her wedding certificate, her gun license, and a note addressed to the Coroner:
    “The last statement of Jeanne Merton, living under the professional name of Jeanne de Forest, being an art student. I hereby state that, although of sound mind, I intend to commit suicide to–night because of the intolerable position in which my extremely rash and unfortunate marriage has placed me. It is my wish that my body be cremated.”
    In retrospect, she had threatened suicide over the months to both her husband and her solicitor, E. S. P. Haynes, but no one had taken her seriously. The day she died, her solicitor received a letter saying “I cannot endure things any longer.” Her husband, meanwhile, received the note, “You have killed me.” An inquest ruled her death as “suicide during temporary insanity.” ” (ibid.)

    “(…) they [AC’s former students Olivia Haddon and Vittoria Cremers] also led Neuburg to the far–fetched belief that Crowley had jealously caused Jeanne Heyse’s suicide. A passage he would read years later in Magick in Theory and Practice would only confirm Victor’s suspicions (…). This passage was likely a case of Crowley, having heard the allegations against him, recounting the story in a way that bolstered his magical image.” (ibid.)

    #109880

    SrMNA
    Participant

    “This story has been cooked to imply the actress’s suicide was Crowley’s doing, another myth for sure, but one Crowley helped to stoke.”

    Reminds me of certain US magickal warzones, when magicians would claim responsibility for individuals’ misfortunes/self-destruction like terrorists after a plane wreck.

    “…he used the myth to warn of what could happen to those who interfered with initiates’ progress…”

    This also seems to have become part of the cultural tradition (at least back in my formative years). The knowledge of the “cautionary tales” circulated over folks who walk away has done more to keep me focused on better health and success during the down times than any therapist.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  SrMNA.
    #109882

    SrMNA
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter (Which name do you prefer, btw?):

    And it was just after this, I think, that A.C. wrote the otherwise fine essay “Duty”, in which he laid out all the moral points which ought to have a bearing upon Thelemic behaviour by the individual, e.g. not committing robbery, etc.

    Thanks for making that connection. One of my current side projects is doing some chronological textual analysis to look at how themes and ideas developed over time in his writings. I think the tendency of the general Thelemic public to focus on the class document designation for the “weight” of his writings (or worse, to treat all of his writing as prophetic guidance) without the historical context gives rise to a lot of the problems we’re talking about. The ahistorical/dispensationalist scripture approach didn’t work out well for Christianity, and isn’t going to do any better for Thelema. (The “Aiwas said it, Crowley wrote it and I believe it” attitude was doing a lot of damage during the time when I was last active.)

    I dug out the 2011 LAShTAL discussion on “Duty”; it was attributed to his 1921-22 writing period without any coming forward to dispute that dating. Much was also being made of the fact that it was an unpublished doc without any “official” document class designation (an interesting comparison with the nature of the diary as a place of private reflection.)

    For ease of discussion, a handy link to the essay: http://lib.oto-usa.org/crowley/essays/duty.html

    Some relevant sections:

    3. Abstain from all interferences with other wills.
    “Beware lest any force another, King against King!” [AL II:24]
    (The love and war in the previous injunctions are of the nature of sport, where one respects, and learns from the opponent, but never interferes with him, outside the actual game.) To seek to dominate or influence another is to seek to deform or to destroy him; and he is a necessary part of one’s own Universe, that is, of one’s self.

    C. Your duty to mankind.
    “The word of Sin is Restriction.” [AL I:41]
    The essence of crime is that it restricts the freedom of the individual outraged. (Thus, murder restricts his right to live; robbery, his right to enjoy the fruits of his labour; coining, his right to the guarantee of the state that he shall barter in security; etc.) It is then the common duty to prevent crime by segregating the criminal, and by the threat of reprisals; also, to teach the criminal that his acts, being analyzed, are contrary to his own True Will. (This may often be accomplished by taking from him the right which he has denied to others; as by outlawing the thief, so that he feels constant anxiety for the safety of his own possessions, removed from the ward of the State.) The rule is quite simple. He who violated any right declares magically that it does not exist; therefore it no longer does so, for him.

    Crime being a direct spiritual violation of the Law of Thelema, it should not be tolerated in the community…

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  SrMNA.
    #109907

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @dom :

    D:— I remembered that AC initially didn’t like Liber Al and put it in a cupboard and forgot about it. The significance of it dawned on him as time went on so he saw it as wholly independent from him.
    J:— Sorry but I don’t see the connection –– this maps into the question of A.C.’s infallibility (or not) how, exactly?
    D:— I wasn’t discussing infallibility but the opposite, his self-confessed flaws which include trying to kill someone ‘magically’ like an ideal to live up to.

    That was why I put “infallibility (or not)” in brackets. Dom, you do make debating difficult – possible progress in other matters of Logic notwithstanding – like trying to get blood out of a stone here. References too brief & obscure. Unless I am alone and mistaken in this perception, which I don’t think I am. So you don’t think the significance of Liber AL was there and dawned on A.C. early on, then – and that he was just not acknowledging it up front? Out of interest, when would you say this dawning realization occurred?

    D:— an ideal to live up to.
    J:— What — you mean like ‘kill & torture’ and ‘drag down their souls to awful torment’?
    D:— So ‘magical energy’ is like electricity, it’s not inherently ‘evil’ or ‘good’. It can be used by someone who was negatively conditioned by a family/’guardian’ as a child and by someone who was not was negatively conditioned by a family/’guardian’ as a child.
    Does Criowley’s Thelemic practices deal with childhood conditioning issues? No they don’t.

    This all seems rather like a collection on non sequiturs to me old china, not least the sudden Mel Brooks clip: part of the difficulty in debating mentioned above. But to deal with your last point, Criowley’s Thelemic practices may not directly deal with these issues (since for one thing psycho-analysis was in its infancy when he was writing all the libri), but they would certainly be dealt with “internally” by the magician (i.e., AC here) having gone within their “inner space” and confronting the neuroses, psychoses etc that arise from the depths of prolonged and ongoing meditative practices.

    D:— “Son, you’re on your own”
    Yep, giddyup a dingdong there: load on up, ‘n’ saddle on out… (Great Non Sequiturs of Our Time, Part 1034)

    @shiva :

    I was taught to “never use a pentagram on a human being.” So, one day in 1976, Frater Mont’s girlfriend underwent one of her many flip-outs. I had heard about them, but then I walked into one. She was over-the-edge insane. I asked her if she wanted help. She said “Yes.” So I sat her down on a stool and shot a pentagram into her back at the level of the Solar Plexus. She immediately regained her normal, sane composure.
    “Thank you,” she said.

    Whoever was it who could have taught this Shiva? I can’t remember ever seeing anything of the sort in any of the AA/ OTO literature. It seems rather dictatorial as it stands, without any conditions or exceptions or “get out clauses”. It wasn’t a teaching that you took to heart, then? Particularly as it seemed to have been proven wrong from your own practical experience. Did you ever see any merit or value at all to this (so-called) teaching?

    @ignant666 :

    Once more, the most likely translation of AC’s “a Circe who was bewitching brethren” is “a woman who was sexually attractive, and would have sex with someone else, but not with me”.
    Ha ha! Ain’t it just — Isadora Duncan would have been another “Circe” having the effrontery to have spurned him in that case!

    @serpent252, thanks for the supplemental material.

    @srmna :

    Jamie J Barter (Which name do you prefer, btw?)
    Jamie will be just fine (Norma(n)’s OK too, if you prefer…) And with you, “Soror”?

    (The “Aiwas said it, Crowley wrote it and I believe it [so We Had it, and you all knew about it!]” attitude was doing a lot of damage during the time when I was last active.)
    Did you find that so in the [©].O.T.O.? Could you say any more about this damage?

    I dug out the 2011 LAShTAL discussion on “Duty”;
    I don’t remember reading that before (as for one thing, it was shortly “before my time”). It seems to have engendered a lot of posts when it first emerged, and then fizzled out of pop shortly afterwards like so many of them seem to do (I’d quite forgotten how prodigious Azidonis was with posting at one time – where is he nowadays? He only ever seems to make a rare appearance these days along with Los). The thrust seemed to be towards the fact that “Duty” was heavily edited as if for publication as an “official document” but somehow circumstances intervened (cf. similarly with Liber Aleph, Golden Twigs, Crowley’s I Ching etc).

    it was attributed to his 1921-22 writing period without any coming forward to dispute that dating.
    Somehow I seemed to have it in my mind that it was 1924 (the year he also claimed to have made Ipsissimus). Perhaps by then he’d finally known better?!?

    Much was also being made of the fact that it was an unpublished doc without any “official” document class designation (an interesting comparison with the nature of the diary as a place of private reflection.)
    This did not invalidate the ethical considerations within it however. And yes, Duty did mention murder viz. it restricts the victim’s right to live, in a most literal sense:

    C. Your duty to mankind.
    “The word of Sin is Restriction.” [AL I:41]
    The essence of crime is that it restricts the freedom of the individual outraged. (Thus, murder restricts his right to live; robbery, his right to enjoy the fruits of his labour; coining, his right to the guarantee of the state that he shall barter in security; etc.)[…] Crime being a direct spiritual violation of the Law of Thelema, it should not be tolerated in the community…

    The entire essay, which could in theory have been written any time up to the 1920s, can best be summed up as “Fine words” betrayed by hypocritical “shabby actions” as shown by the past behaviour of AC or The Beast in his IX operations/Opuses with his “bride” the Scarlet Woman, and which make his deplorable actions in this direction to terminate Matlack Foster with extreme prejudice even harder to comprehend. “Don’t do as I do, do as I say” seems to be the ultimate prime directive here (or in invisible ink and written between the lines, “Think for yourselves you empty-headed Athenians”)

    With a pinch of the dust of the grand Wazoo
    N Joy

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  Jamie J Barter. Reason: nul preview
    #109909

    Shiva
    Participant

    JB: I can’t remember ever seeing anything of the sort in any of the AA/ OTO literature.

    There are three (3) types of transmission: Oral, Symbols, and Direct. I was referring to “Oral” teachings, so that’s why you couldn’t find it in any literature.

    #109910

    dom
    Participant

    The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another? There are parallels to be found here with Crowley’s account in Chapter 21 of Magick in Theory and Practice where he wrote: “The Master Therion once found it necessary to slay a Circe who was bewitching brethren. He merely walked to the door of her room, and drew an astral T [symbolic of Saturn and death] with an astral dagger. Within 48 hours she shot herself.” However the activity described below took place in 1915 — the same year when he assumed the grade of Magus 9=2 and therefore one assumes ought to have known better, although Churton fails (or is careful not) to offer any judgement himself here

    Jamie very good question. A 9=2 should know better .. what can you do about those grade claimants and their transgressions? Nothing…you’re on your own. Who are you to question the actions of a 9=2? It’s good that you are questioning it. Actions? He thought mean things about someone whilst having sex….. is that so bad? Yeah it’s pretty petty I guess but deos it stand in a court of law?

    Hahah.

    The Maharishi, he let a lot of people down also apparently but does that take anything away from the T.M. revolution he instigated and all of the benefits provided thereby? What about Jung who may have apparently had sex with more than one of his patients? Does that alleged vile behaviour devalue his theories on Self, shadow and Synchronicity? Well I never heard Jung write about how he sneakily got laid via his private practice but I did hear about AC cursing “circes”, which one is the better man , the honest one or the creepy liar? Is honesty/confessions relevant morally? Probably not.

    He fvcked up ….maybe……what can you do? You’re on your own. Deal with it for yourself. I was going to say if this has destroyed your idealization about Thelema and Crowley then you could always discard it and get on board the kind-hearted Gurdjieff train…….but maybe he too could be an asshole and therefore a hypocrite?

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  dom.
    #109931

    elitemachinery
    Participant

    @jamiejbarter said:

    The question I wish to ask fellow Lashtalians for your opinion and debate is: Is it in accordance with the Law of Thelema to actively wish to cause the death of another?

    “Do What Thou Wilt Shall be the Whole of the LAW”

    Does NOT mean “do whatever you like with impunity.” Actions have consequences…ALWAYS. If you choose to act in such a manner (wishing people that you don’t like dead) then you will suffer the consequences. The least of which may be finding it difficult to make friends or garner support for your life ventures. Unless of course your community agrees with you, and said person is hated by many, in which case perhaps there will be no noticeable consequences.

    I don’t believe any Holy Man would waste his energy on such things. While Crowley gave himself a lot of titles and grades in his pursuit of knowledge he was clearly not without faults and not above selfish pursuits such as this.

    There seems to be a process when one becomes aware of Thelema in which the initiate hears “Do Whatever You Like” and then slowly aligns their actions with the more noble “Do What Thou Wilt” as they slowly realize that actions have consequences.

    #109932

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @shiva :

    There are three (3) types of transmission: Oral, Symbols, and Direct. I was referring to “Oral” teachings, so that’s why you couldn’t find it in any literature.
    I would have thought that Oral transmission was pretty Direct. If the use of “Direct” here was meant to refer to something written down, you’d miss all of the nuances of expression, gestures, body movement, pauses, etc all of which would come with Oral recitative.

    It still seems a very odd thing for your teacher (Ray Burlingame?) to have taught. Presumably the thinking would have been that using a pentagram in this way was somehow meant to harm the person on whom it was being employed? But seeing as how one of its purposes would be to banish negative influences from the environment, it’s rather hard to see how anything else other than benefit could accrue.

    @dom :

    A 9=2 should know better .. what can you do about those grade claimants and their transgressions? Nothing…you’re on your own. Who are you to question the actions of a 9=2? It’s good that you are questioning it. Actions? He thought mean things about someone whilst having sex….. is that so bad? Yeah it’s pretty petty I guess but deos it stand in a court of law?
    Hahah.

    Hmm! As I said before to Michael, and hopefully will clarify further to you again by my remarks you are reading now, it wasn’t just cussin’ like a case of simple road rage or thinking “mean things about someone whilst having sex”. By carrying out the IX (repeatedly) with all of his accumulated magical expertise & experience and unequivocally anticipating a successful result — whether it works a magickal technique or not — is relevant to the central issue: in fully expecting that the inoffensive cuckold drop dead as a cause-and-effect consequence is emphatically not in accordance with everything A.C. otherwise believed and published about the Law of Thelema. Do you not consider that thought seeds, as well as precedes, action then? Some people believe thoughts or “mentations” themselves to have an actual manifested basis on the subtler planes, and this is also reflected in Cabbala especially with regard to the third World of Yetzirah.

    The Maharishi […] What about Jung […] I did hear about AC [… -] which one is the better man , the honest one or the creepy liar? Is honesty/confessions relevant morally? Probably not.
    So you believe somebody possibly having pervy sex is in the same league as pre-meditated attempted murder then?

    He fvcked up ….maybe……what can you do? You’re on your own. Deal with it for yourself.
    Why Yes! — you read my comments at the end of my previous posting in reply to Sr MNA, I suppose — about “think for yourselves” being the invisible ultimate prime directive here?

    I was going to say if this has destroyed your idealization about Thelema and Crowley then you could always discard it and get on board the kind-hearted Gurdjieff train…….but maybe he too could be an asshole and therefore a hypocrite?
    Everyone can be an asshole when the mood takes, but not everyone has the capability and the intention of being a cold blooded killer.

    You didn’t say when you thought the significance of Liber AL dawned on A.C., or comment on my remark about Thelemic practices managing to deal with childhood conditioning issues in the course of and through depth-meditation. I take it that you agreed with it therefore, although it would have been interesting to see any reason you might have had for disagreeing.

    @elitemachinery :

    clearly not without faults and not above selfish pursuits such as this.
    And I imagine wanting to do away with another person would have to count amongst the acme of selfish pursuits!?

    There seems to be a process when one becomes aware of Thelema in which the initiate hears “Do Whatever You Like” and then slowly aligns their actions with the more noble “Do What Thou Wilt” as they slowly realize that actions have consequences.
    Yes, although as was remarked earlier one for various reasons would have thought A.C. would be a bit above the level of run-of-the-mill crop of initiates whose lower personality dictates their actions. I’m increasingly wondering how much the superego, or else conscience, might play a part in the development of one’s psyche towards “taking the next step”.

    Gnothi Seayton,
    N Joy

    #109936

    dom
    Participant

    @jamiebarter

    it wasn’t just cussin’ like a case of simple road rage or thinking “mean things about someone whilst having sex”. By carrying out the IX (repeatedly) with all of his accumulated magical expertise & experience and unequivocally anticipating a successful result — whether it works a magickal technique or not — is relevant to the central issue: in fully expecting that the inoffensive cuckold drop dead as a cause-and-effect consequence is emphatically not in accordance with everything A.C. otherwise believed and published about the Law of Thelema.

    First off, I think the wording of it “I found it necessary” implies self-defence ie he was under psychic attack and had to roll with his survival instinct. The definitions of “circe” are wishy-washy like “goblin” or “ghoul”. Secondly “magical intent” devoid of physical; effect is irrelevant in courts of law. In fact it would get laughed out.

    So you believe somebody possibly having pervy sex is in the same league as pre-meditated attempted murder then?

    Crowley didn’t do anything to her on the physical plane. Maharishi allegedly physically made a pass at the meditation disciple and Jung allegedly allowed his physical instincts to take full effect in his patients. The answer is no basically, otherwise all men would be convicted killers for as little boys they go through the Oedipal phase whereby they wish their fathers to die.

    Your line of thinking here would be aiding and abetting the Witchfinder General to get on with executing those girls who thought bad things about people via the use of a needle and a voodoo doll or whatever. Medievalism basically.

    Do you not consider that thought seeds, as well as precedes, action then? Some people believe thoughts or “mentations” themselves to have an actual manifested basis on the subtler planes, and this is also reflected in Cabbala especially with regard to the third World of Yetzirah.

    Some people believe that Uri Geller doesn’t physically bend the stems of spoons before he does his act…… so what? Once again, laughed out of court.

    Why Yes! — you read my comments at the end of my previous posting in reply to Sr MNA, I suppose — about “think for yourselves” being the invisible ultimate prime directive here?

    Yeah what was that quote from AC about not wanting a flock of sheep etc?

    You didn’t say when you thought the significance of Liber AL dawned on A.C.,

    I don’t know I’d have to trawl through the Confessions to find it.

    or comment on my remark about Thelemic practices managing to deal with childhood conditioning issues in the course of and through depth-meditation. I take it that you agreed with it therefore, although it would have been interesting to see any reason you might have had for disagreeing.

    The variables involved are too complex to give a definite answer. If we consider that AC said once he mastered asana he could slip into physical comfort anytime after 10 minutes practice and also that he stated that “there is no greater purgative other than pranayama” then yeah these practices can help… sometimes but check out Colin Wilson’s AC bio for all of the neurotic retarded behaviour…what happened then? Were these purgative practices neglected or maybe they weren’t but they still couldn’t help exorcise neurotic impulses.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  dom. Reason: improved explanations
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