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  • #116092

    dom
    Participant

    #116096

    ignant666
    Participant

    Yes, Mormons are bat-shit crazy, and used to be even crazier. So?

    #116097

    ignant666
    Participant

    Mark Twain on the Mormons, from Roughing it, 1872, this is chapter 16 “The Mormon Bible—Proofs of its Divinity—Plagiarism of its Authors—Story of Nephi—Wonderful Battle—Kilkenny Cats Outdone”:

    https://americanliterature.com/author/mark-twain/book/roughing-it/chapter-xvi-the-mormon-bible-proofs-of-its-divinity

    This is probably the single best sentence but it has a lot of competition:

    And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but “hefted” them, I am convinced.

    The preceding chapter (available at the site above, as is the whole book) has an amusing, and obviously fabricated (he more or less admits this) account of Salt Lake City before they abolished polygamy in order to become a US state. Some other chapters before and after give more realistic accounts of early Utah.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roughing_It

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  ignant666.
    #116102

    soz
    Participant

    Pretty sure that video isn’t made by Mormons and doesn’t reflect their actual beliefs, but then again I watched less than a minute of it before confirming my suspicions.

    …Yep… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Makers

    #116105

    belmurru
    Participant

    It is true, actually. The cartoon is anti-Mormon, but the account is precisely accurate.

    How do I know? I joined the LDS church in 1984, and studied it more deeply than most who are raised in it.

    I never read the part about Jesus’ wives and children, but I have to assume that was part of it too.

    Many of these doctrines are not in the Mormon scriptures, the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants. Rather, they were mostly the prophetic utterances of Brigham Young, the second President and Prophet of the church, recorded in a multivolume series called The Journal of Discourses.

    I haven’t looked at this stuff in decades, so I don’t know if it’s online. But here is the first verse of a song still in the hymnal and sung (I certainly sang it) – “If You Could Hie To Kolob” –

    1. If you could hie to Kolob
    In the twinkling of an eye,
    And then continue onward
    With that same speed to fly,
    Do you think that you could ever,
    Through all eternity,
    Find out the generation
    Where Gods began to be?

    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/hymns/if-you-could-hie-to-kolob?lang=eng

    #116107

    ignant666
    Participant

    It’s basically the Scientology of the 19th century, with similar baroque space-opera-ish mythology. The merit-gaining “tech” is baptizing and marrying dead people instead of auditing. In each case, the goal is to become a Bearded Space-Daddy God. The Scientologists are newer, and don’t yet have their own US state, but have about the same, or better, reputation as Mormons had 70 years in. Also they both have similar tastes in church architecture.

    I am not a bit surprised that an accurate depiction of Mormon doctrine caused soz to say, oh, no way, this has to be fake. Did you know that American Indians used to ride camels in Bible days? And then, of course, there is “God’s Special Underwear” (long-johns like everyone on the frontier used to wear, with embroidered symbols). And the anointing of genitals, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    I don’t recall AC ever having much to say about the Mormons, but certainly hope i’m mistaken and someone can dig something up.

    In the Hag, he, in passing, mentions Joseph Smith as a “[man] of the highest genius… of peasant parentage”, in a list of “examples of the lofty intelligence and the noblest character shooting up from the grossest stock” (others include Whitman, Lincoln, and Rodin). No mention of Brigham Young, Mormons, or Utah in the index.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    #116110

    Tiger
    Participant

    The video struck me as a teaching technology that uses an self-emanating, self-originating body of reality, present before anything else existed, emanationism, Adi Buddha, Neoplatonism, etc kind of thing.

    #116111

    ignant666
    Participant

    The video is Xian apologetics, and emphasizes the things that are most contrary to Xian doctrine.

    There is a tiny core of what Theosophists called the “Secret Doctrine” but most of Mormonism is baroque nonsense deeply rooted in 19th century American rural frontier culture, where the Bible and possibly a book or two of Sir Walter Scott were the extent of “culture”.

    Joseph Smith’s very limited imagination and tedious Bible-language faking (mixed, as Mark Twain notes, with frontier ‘Murrican) make reading the Mormon scriptures just as bad as Twain says in Roughing it. Brigham Young was a far more interesting, if equally unscrupulous, con-man. Crowley of course had the same Bible-language faking disease but at least was better at it, perhaps due to being an educated person from a civilized country, rather than a semi-literate frontier grifter like Smith.

    The fact that Mormons are now more or less respectable is a remarkable testament to the healing power of time, as it would be impossible to overstate how detested and despised they were in the 19th century. Once again, the Scientologists of the 19th century.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    #116114

    belmurru
    Participant

    Crowley of course had the same Bible-language faking disease

    I don’t think he was faking it; it’s perfectly natural if you are steeped in the Authorised Version, and have heard it at church your whole life. I don’t know your upbringing, but if you have ever recited the Lord’s Prayer as part of your spiritual practice, it is absolutely unnatural to say “Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be hallowed, may your kingdom come, may your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. … for yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever, amen.”

    If that is your primordial childhood sense of mysterium tremendum et fascinans, prosaic English just doesn’t get you there. Old King James English, for so many generations – not the last two in North America, I am sure, and for selected pockets of earlier ones, but certainly for any WASPs and Catholics over about 50 (It’s “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with THEE,” not “you”, as well as the identical Lord’s Prayer as the Authorised Version; they may have heard the Mass in Latin before 1963, but they said their Hail Marys and Our Fathers in Elizabethan English).

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  belmurru.
    #116116

    ignant666
    Participant

    I had to go to Anglican/Episcopal services, and Sunday School, every Sunday until i was confirmed at 13 in 1972, and have never attended religious services again except weddings and funerals. Church scared the shit out of me.

    Nothing before or since has given me the creeps like Protestantism, especially in its more pastel ’60s forms, did/does. Not even meeting Breeze and Wasserman when they looked like that “creepy hippie junkies” picture on the cover of Wasserman’s book creeped me out as hard as church.

    My atheist academic parents always made clear that no one but an idiot believed that stuff, but that one had to go and observe the forms. They would typically join the priest for drinks after services. The priest’s elder son taught me to “loid” a lock by pushing the bolt back with a thin plastic card (or, originally, celluloid card, thus the name) so that we could break into the church and work mischief while our parents were drinking.

    When my hippie uncle and aunt became born-again in the early ’70s, my great-grandmother, born on the Ohio frontier in the late 19th century (1884-1978) but moved to Philadelphia to run a women’s hat business after her husband died of syphilis leaving her to raise my grandpa, said “Well, i suppose there’s nothing wrong with going to church [she never had in her adult life], but your uncle is taking this Jesus crap entirely too seriously!” Her dad commanded two Ohio infantry units in the ongoing War against the Confederate traitors.

    I am very familiar with the KJV and the Book of Common Prayer, and certainly love the language of them. i am pretty over the hatred and fear of Xianity that followed Sunday School for 25 years or so.

    But Crowley’s Bible-y tone never fails to grate on me as a phony attempt to sound “holy”. Aiwass, for some reason, has the same disease.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  ignant666.
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    #116120

    dom
    Participant

    @belmurru

    am sure, and for selected pockets of earlier ones, but certainly for any WASPs and Catholics over about 50 (It’s “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with THEE,” not “you”

    Yes that is true.

    @everyone

    It’s the format that gets me i.e. the 1970s (possible very early 80s) Masters of the Universe type animation. The batshit crazy narrative with conservative American voiceover and weird-ass creepy background music ie the time and effort gone into it all….. just cracks me up. The 4m45s hey we admit Joseph Smith was known for his tall tales bit.

    This video is a test. When you can watch without uttering “what the fuck?” or without dropping your jaw or saying “what?” then you are in.

    @ignant666

    In the Hag, he, in passing, mentions Joseph Smith as a “[man] of the highest genius… of peasant parentage”, in a list of “examples of the lofty intelligence and the noblest character shooting up from the grossest stock”

    Dafuck?

    Ironically the ancestors of Native Americans apparently crossed the Atlantic by iceberg and boat

    .
    http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  dom.
    #116124

    belmurru
    Participant

    But Crowley’s Bible-y tone never fails to grate on me as a phony attempt to sound “holy”. Aiwass, for some reason, has the same disease.

    It’s all about the numinous quality of the language, elevated, majestic, and timeless. If it doesn’t do that for you, I can only imagine how grating it is. I find his usage quite expert and beautiful, completely natural with the biblical cadences.

    Unlike you, I was never forced to go to church, any church, and had to find spirituality for myself. I’d like to say it began with the wonder of science, but I think it really began with the wonder of Christmas. Neither of my teenaged parents went to church, and when they split up when I was 5, I went to live with my father’s parents. My father, born in 1948, was the second of eight children. Their last child, a daughter, was born three weeks after I was, so I had a kind of sister who was really my aunt. Sort of, as I was always an afterthought, in such a large and “old” family, I was put into whatever old clothes would fit and slept wherever there was room. But at Christmas everybody came home, the good cheer flowed, it was busy and fun all the time. The Christmas tree was the closest thing to an altar this family ever made, and what a generous altar it was! In a family of that size, the sheer volume of presents could not fit under the tree. The whole living room was basically turned into a wonderland of psychedelic colors and sounds, there was always a fireplace with crackling logs, “Bing on the hi-fi”, etc. It couldn’t have been more kitsch and tacky and whatever other adjectives you want, but it was sacred to me. I’d sit for hours, looking at the blinking lights and tinsel, soaking up the warm emotions of the people around, staring deeply into the dense branches toward the sacred mystery of the trunk, with the lights leading ever inward. Sometimes I’d lose track of time and find myself alone, lost in mystery and wonder.

    So that must be the genesis of my religious feeling. The wonder of astronomy is the second, and of course in winter, in Canada, the cold clear nights are perfect times to commune with the stars.

    Finally, it was only in early adolescence that I sought out an actual church in which to find friendship. First, at the age of 14, I joined the Seventh Day Adventists, which are really old-school, Catholics are the Anti-Christ, Reformation Protestants (Ellen G. White wrote their foundational text, The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, a good read if you want to feel their vibe), right around Christmas of course; I left the following spring, and went back to my attempt at LaVeyan satanism and other occultist activities. Of course I didn’t join the SDA church out of interest in their version of Christianity; I joined because the first night I was there, there was a family singing group from Spokane, Washington,and one of their daughters was just my age. It was desire for her that made up my mind; I can still sing the song, which begins
    “Does anybody here wanna live forever? Say ‘I do’
    Does anybody here wanna walk on golden streets? Say ‘I do’
    Is anybody here sick and tired of livin’ like you do?
    Does anybody here want a home with love forever? Say ‘I do'”
    The reason I joined the Mormon church 4 years later was the same, with the difference that I knew I had an ulterior motive, and I had a lot more knowledge.

    I also left that church after about 8 months, although this time I had the girl, and I persuaded her to leave, too. It actually wasn’t much persuasion, just an unspoken knowledge we both had. Same year I took Minerval OTO, two weeks before Grady died.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  belmurru.
    #116126

    dom
    Participant

    The xmas tree tradition probably borrowed from earlier Pagan sources.

    #116132

    mayet
    Participant

    @belmurru See I knew I liked you Bel, you have a nice soul..

    @Iggy I had to go to Anglican/Episcopal services, and Sunday School, every Sunday until i was confirmed at 13 in 1972, and have never attended religious services again except weddings and funerals. Church scared the shit out of me.

    Well apparently I was an important personality to make unimportant and my parents were picked because of their relationship with the church, as it was a condition of my adoption, I be raised in the church. From what I gather I was passed from my lineage of Presby Mason Grand thingys to my adoptive line of Cruch of England grand mason thingys. At least I got St Marks with the lion…

    All I remember is church every sunday sunday school. I went to a church pre school kindergarden Mt Michaels this time. However, like you Iggy, my parents weren’t into it, just for the times and place. My Grandmother was the force, the ended up getting Queens Honours OAM. order of Australia medal, she was the church organist.. yeeeewk.. bought us and my cousins these huge organs that took up half our living room and made us go for organ lessons.. I only went for the simon coloured beep beep beep memory game after..she was also president of the churches mothers union the deaf society and the rose society, charity this and that.. I didn’t like her one bit. There was not a drop of love in her for me, the interloper from an unknown gutter.
    Grace before dinner .. dad used to keep the tradition but when not around the family, just us he said to us “time to say grace”, we would bow our heads and he would say, “2 4 6 8, bog in don’t wait”.. mum used to frown but she didn’t care really, I never heard the word jesus or god come from her lips. Thinking back, that was strange.. nor dad.. but then they suffered their siblings favouritism..

    mum’s family were also masons.. Sad days when mum died. My eyes had been opened. From unconsciousness subconsciousness to conscious unconscious, I had stopped being slave to what I was expected to be in each role, to me being me and I came out of the pagan closet and dusted off Crowley in the corner and followed the path of the universe.

    I won’t go there what happened in the 11 days of my dying to Walpurgisnacht I will always remember what they did to my mother. What they did to my sister.

    so anyway, yeah growing up with the church… once again you have a similar road to me.

    I was thinking today what Thoth said , ..funny I don’t do a lot of that 😀 … and realised he too was raised in the church and whereas my childhood was sunshine and happy , his was miserable and abusive.. his adult life was sunshiny and mine miserable.. so much the opposites

    @tiger
    The video struck me as a teaching technology that uses an self-emanating, self-originating body of reality, present before anything else existed, emanationism, Adi Buddha, Neoplatonism, etc kind of thing.

    Ooops I’ve Had it I don’t even know what NeoPlatonism is I can guess by the words it’s new plato but i don’t even know platos works as platos work..

    @domDeviladvocate hows it going Dom 😀

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  mayet.
    #116142

    dom
    Participant

    Anyone who didn’t go to church (Catholic) on Sunday in my school was made to feel like a criminal.

    The guys who were chosen as altar boys ended up as criminals.

    Go figure.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  dom.
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