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  • This topic contains 23 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Tiger 5 months ago.
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  • #105142

    strider
    Participant

    What makes this abrogation a certainty is recognizing the collective effect from personal wisdom that comes from each individual having a recognizably educated and modern level of individual cosmological understanding developed from the shared discoveries of humankind in a globally connected world.

    The only way it can be a “certainty” is because some individual (you) looks at certain phenomena and interprets them in a specific manner that leads to your being personally convinced about your conclusion. But that’s your personal business, not mine.

    Even having been developed in ancient learning and protected by isolation, they “understand a little”.

    There is no way to “prove” (except to oneself, based on one’s own personal observations) that the spiritual methods of the ancients are qualitatively and collectively inferior to those of Aleister Crowley. This is a myth that I have seen in many places. You are welcome to believe this, you may have good reasons for believing it yourself, but in the end it is either a matter of religious faith OR personal experience (which is valid for YOU). I mean, in my experience Crowley’s descriptions of the spiritual path are superior to that of any other occultist in Western history. But I can’t call that a “certainty” (except, of course, for myself, and even then I have to be open to changing my mind at some point based on new evidence or a change in my criteria for excellence.)

    As for “All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little”–note that Crowley himself is not exempted from the exception in the second half.

    Now that sounds like a statement in favour of dogmas and faiths.

    It is my personal persuasion that all of these faiths, while in various states of decadence, are still fully capable of producing saints, adepts, and fully liberated beings. You are not expected to believe this if you have no basis for it. But I have no basis for knowing or believing that any of these religions are automatically and literally handicapped in some mysterious way because of Crowley’s Equinox of the Gods.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by  strider.
    #105153

    ignant666
    Participant

    There may be some confusion as to what “abrogation” might mean in AL.

    strider: It is my personal persuasion that all of these faiths, while in various states of decadence, are still fully capable of producing saints, adepts, and fully liberated beings. You are not expected to believe this if you have no basis for it. But I have no basis for knowing or believing that any of these religions are automatically and literally handicapped in some mysterious way because of Crowley’s Equinox of the Gods.

    I don’t think this is what is meant at all. For a clearer view, see

    Shiva: LBRP was abrogated over a century ago. But it will still work.

    Nothing is stopping you getting in a canoe and paddling across the Atlantic, but most who want to cross that vast ocean prefer to book an airplane seat these days. Trans-Atlantic canoe travel might thus be said to be “abrogate”.

    #105159

    Shiva
    Participant

    Mal: The abrogation at the Equinox of the Gods could, in part, be interpreted as a “collective “law”” that is the result of the increase and dissemination of humanity’s scientific cosmological knowledge overruling the authority of the ancient monoliths

    I Am the 99th monkey. Who will be the hundredth?

    1904 is impossible for me to take seriously

    The following is taken from The Master Codex, Ch 1:

    1904 AD
    The Equinox of the Gods

    On March 20, 1904, Frater Perdurabo, calling upon Horus in a series of invocations, came upon the revelation that the Aeons had changed rulership.
    1904 was a pretty good time to announce the beginning of a transition into a new age as the enfolding expansion of new forms of communication and scientific discovery was very extensive:
    1890 – The first computer: The United States Census Bureau began using a machine to record returns using punched card input.
    1895 – The Westinghouse Company and Nicola Tesla built the first hydroelectric alternating current system at Niagara Falls.
    1895 – The first practical wireless telegraphy transmitters and receivers were developed by Guglielmo Marconi.
    1895 – Röntgen discovered X-rays.
    1895 – Arrhenius delivered data on the sensitivity of global climate to atmospheric carbon dioxide (the “Greenhouse effect”).
    1896 – The discovery of radioactivity.
    1903 – Orville and Wilbur Wright fly the first airplane.
    1903 – The original Ford Model A was the first car produced by the Ford Motor Company.
    1905 – Albert Einstein published the theory of relativity; E = mc².
    ———————————————————–

    But then the “scientists had their own version:

    950 AD
    Earth Entered a New Age

    Scientists proclaimed an official end to the Holocene epoch – the current, nearly 12,000-year-long, period that began at the end of the last major ice age..
    As for what “golden spike” will define beginning of our new epoch, it has been recommended that it be the nuclear bomb tests around 1950 (which scattered radioactive elements around the planet).
    ———————————————————-

    2020 AD
    Modern Times

    Technically and astronomically speaking, we haven’t reached the Aquarian Age yet, but transition into something new has certainly been underway since the turn of the 20th century.

    The 2,000-year Aeon concept seems to be right on schedule, with the legend of Horus versus Set being the prominent archetype that is overshadowing human consciousness and behavior.
    ——————————

    1904 was the year of the golden spoke for AC. It is more important that each person look within (and above at the same time) and decide when their own silver star takes place.

    #105448

    mal
    Participant

    The only way it can be a “certainty” is because some individual (you) looks at certain phenomena and interprets them in a specific manner that leads to your being personally convinced about your conclusion. But that’s your personal business, not mine.

    That is a good point to make. It is in the sharing and comparison of experience with others who have done objective work with these same spiritual models from The Book of the Law where any “certainty” would be discovered and not in the personal isolation of the experience. That important distinction should have been made with my post. Thank you for noticing and pointing it out.

    It is my personal persuasion that all of these faiths, while in various states of decadence, are still fully capable of producing saints, adepts, and fully liberated beings.

    We may have a fundamental difference in the esoteric basis behind such words as saints, adepts, fully liberated beings, humans, life in general which is leading to some confusion. In this abrogation model I currently speak of these historical figures are aggregates of consciousness speaking truth from their time period just as people of any time are speaking from theirs. Gnosis isn’t particular to any model it happens through the activity of life at all levels, interconnected, and its product is illumination. The personal spiritual experience of which will have different triggers and meanings for individuals as their understanding of and relationship to the universe changes.
    Those methods from that past that produce result still produce a result. What is made of those results in the context of the abrogation is yet to be fully discovered. As may also be discovered new methods of illumination from the syncretic experiments of the intrepid. The basic subject of which is introduced to beginners in the context of Thelema in documents like Causae, Librae, Manus et Sagittae and the editorial you quoted from the Equinox.

    @shiva
    1925 – Edwin Hubble determines the distance of the Andromeda Nebula proving it to be a separate galaxy.

    …and those hits keep coming. Bigger or smaller.

    It’s been a struggle not to mention a certain sidereal dodekatemoria(Yes. Now acknowledging the special “K” and 1440 Epochs abrogating the Shemhamphorash.) while talking about the Equinox of the Gods in this here thread. Oops. Nonetheless, it’s been helpful to talk about the underlying principles indirectly.

    #105609

    strider
    Participant

    That is a good point to make. It is in the sharing and comparison of experience with others who have done objective work with these same spiritual models from The Book of the Law where any “certainty” would be discovered and not in the personal isolation of the experience.

    That is most emphatically NOT that point I was making. You appear to be talking about collective or consensus “certainty”. The only certainty that is worth anything to me for spiritual purposes is precisely that which comes “in the personal isolation of the experience.”

    We may have a fundamental difference in the esoteric basis behind such words as saints, adepts, fully liberated beings, humans, life in general which is leading to some confusion.

    Agreed!

    @ignant66:

    Nothing is stopping you getting in a canoe and paddling across the Atlantic, but most who want to cross that vast ocean prefer to book an airplane seat these days. Trans-Atlantic canoe travel might thus be said to be “abrogate”.

    Fair enough, but that still doesn’t explain why/how Thelema qualifies as an “airplane” in comparison with everything else. What is it doing that is so radically different from the other “vessels of transportation”? You see, every religion always does this: “We’re an airplane, and the others are just canoes!” It’s classic! And it’s perfectly natural; I have no problem with it in principle because it is what allows individual religions to grow and be their own thing. But I’m not convinced that any particular “vessel” is ever superior in an ABSOLUTE sense to any/all of the others. For me, Thelema might well be rocket fuel, but for someone else, it may be poison. You may argue, “No, Thelema is rocket fuel for EVERYONE, but some people just prefer unleaded gasoline.” That’s fine, but I don’t find convincing evidence of this, nor have I had an experience of it which justifies such a belief. Perhaps I will one day, but as of now I don’t.

    #106006

    mal
    Participant

    That is most emphatically NOT that point I was making. You appear to be talking about collective or consensus “certainty”. The only certainty that is worth anything to me for spiritual purposes is precisely that which comes “in the personal isolation of the experience.”

    Partially, I was talking about that. Certainty, as it meets various requirements, including review, but also correspondence with reality.
    If conditions for certainty related to this sort of matter are only what experience means to an individual personally there could be some issues arising from self-deception. This mistake compounded with others arising from isolation could leave a person clinging to a personally validated certainty about matters of general experience, like abrogation or The Equinox of the Gods among others. This may help explain why you are so confused and frustrated about these subjects and could provide a means for correction.

    #106023

    strider
    Participant

    This may help explain why you are so confused and frustrated about these subjects and could provide a means for correction.

    When in fear of losing ground in an argument, invalidate your oponent’s position by labeling him “confused and frustrated.” Excellent!

    #106024

    mal
    Participant

    @strider
    The subject is causing you some trouble by evidence of your own questioning. My intent was to talk with you about that personal struggle -in a manner as it may help beginners to Thelema who are reading this thread- not invalidate the existence of your problems.
    However, you do seem intent on making the confrontation of your own specific questions central to the discussion and not showing much plain indication of a continual conscious effort to frame the conversation to help beginners. There is some usefulness in this as a theatrical cautionary tale for the beginner, however, a new thread may serve you and the thread better.

    #106697

    Tiger
    Participant

    What is it doing that is so radically different from the other “vessels of transportation ”?

    Perhaps its giving a heads up to the untold millions ,
    that follow a religion and never succeed in merging with a Goddesshead or achieving Enlightenment ;

    that change can take place .

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