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ignant666
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29/07/2018 6:06 pm  

I just re-read Symond's splendidly scurrilous The Great Beast.

At one point, he quotes AC as referring to some woman as looking "like Clapham Junction" during sex. I foolishly failed to mark this passage, and now can't find it.

I assume this is some sort of joke, but am unable to figure it out, other than that Clapham Junction is a very busy train station that has the first syllable "clap".

Can any British members, or persons of any nationality for that matter, elucidate this joke, and/or identify who he was referring to?

Much thanx in advance as this has been bedeviling me for a few days now.


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Jamie J Barter
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29/07/2018 9:10 pm  

As a Brit I'm sorry not to be able to be of much assistance here Travis. The only thing I can think of is a lot of facial or bodily lines and furrows, as in railway tracks. Also being "up the junction" is cockney vernacular for being in trouble, often as in the cause of pregnancy.

Which version of The Great Beast was it - the early (50s), the middle (70s) or the latest (90s)?

Norma N Joy Conquest


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ignant666
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29/07/2018 9:54 pm  

Thanx, Jamie.

My copy was "Published in 1973 by Mayflower Books Ltd/Frogmore, St Albans, Herts AL2 2NF".

Had not thought of the "a lot of tracks" explanation- not sure if the usage "tracks" for injection stigmata was current in the UK in the 1920s-30s? I believe it was so used in the USA at that time.

Had not thought of the "up the junction" explanation either, though i know the phrase.

I think neither of these quite gets it- perhaps Michael Staley could help here, as a Brit with an extensive repertoire of corny jokes (and i say that with the respectful tone of a man who has posted Hee-Haw videos here)?


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pegasus
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30/07/2018 3:32 am  

Top definition. Clapham unknown · Chronic masturbator.

Clapham a group of early 19th-century Church of England evangelicals advocating personal piety, the abolition of slavery, etc ooh sounds familiar bit like thelema

junction crowwroad lol typo supposed to be crossroad up the road or across the street

"hee haw hee haw he always tells me that" comes to my mind about hee haw jokes

I am such an ass


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William Thirteen
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30/07/2018 11:36 am  

busy, chaotic and confused

a very busy railway station in south London, England. Thirty-five people were killed in a train crash there in 1988.

People sometimes use 'Clapham Junction' to describe a place that is crowded and busy

We've got builders in this week and the house is like Clapham Junction.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/clapham-junction


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Michael Staley
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30/07/2018 2:10 pm  

@ignant666

perhaps Michael Staley could help here, as a Brit with an extensive repertoire of corny jokes

A reference no doubt to my transmissions from the shade of Bob Monkhouse.

I should imagine that Crowley is referring to the woman's wrinkled skin. Symonds is no doubt referring to a diary entry, and if you come across the entry again he may have given a date from which I could go back to Crowley's diary entry.

Your Mayflower 1973 edition is I assume a paperback of the early 1970s edition of The Great Beast. This edition incorporated material from The Magic of Aleister Crowley, and no doubt Symonds made some other revisions/additions too.


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belmurru
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30/07/2018 5:18 pm  

Travis, it may be this quote, referring to Hanni Jaeger, from AC's 1930 diary in Portugal. From Marco Pasi's edition of it, kindly posted by Brown U's Portuguese Brazilian Studies dept. here:

https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Portuguese_Brazilian_Studies/ejph/pessoaplural/Issue1/PDF/I1A07.pdf

"Sat[urday] [September] 13.
"…
"[Opus] 24 To bring out her Art.
"This was the best Op¬[us] I remember at all in my whole life. She looked like Clapham Junction. Later she broke down into a very long fit of hysterical sobbing, which I think cleared up her trouble of mind. “I want to be of some use in the world.”"

I can't say anything about how she reminded him of Clapham Junction, unless he meant just "a mess".


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ignant666
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30/07/2018 8:26 pm  

Yes, that's the passage! Thank you, belmurru!


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dom
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30/07/2018 9:21 pm  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzRhxFREUuE

Would've been more smog filled in AC's day.

Scruffy, dirty, grimy?

https://www.lashtal.com/wiki/Aleister_Crowley_Timeline


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Jamie J Barter
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31/07/2018 1:28 am  

In addition to possible scar tissue tracks, wrinkles (on a 19 year old!), and being scruffy, dirty & grimy, to be told that "she looked like Clapham Junction" hardly seems as if this description was meant to be in any way complimentary towards her; not only that it also seems rather incredible just how Hanni Jaeger could have ordinarily helped manage to produce the ah, required stimulation for "the best Op¬[us] I remember at all in my whole life" if she'd presented with that sort of appearance!

n Joy


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ignant666
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31/07/2018 1:59 am  

Also, if i recall correctly, she was 19, hardly an age to be very wrinkly!

And so far, none of the explanations go to why she would look "like Clapham Junction" during "the best Op¬[us] [AC could] remember at all in [his] whole life".

As to Jamie's question, perhaps it's because i just re-read Symonds, but AC was not the type to be un-stimulated by the scruffy, dirty, grimy, ugly, or aged, at least as Symonds tells it. Though of course there was Rose, as conventionally beautiful a woman as one could hope to find.


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Jamie J Barter
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31/07/2018 2:31 am  

@ignant666 :

why she would look “like Clapham Junction” during “the best Op¬[us] [AC could] remember at all in [his] whole life”.
Yes, that was why I was wondering how Hanni Jaeger could "ordinarily" have provided the attractive & erotically charged stimulation to ahem "raise the mystic Lance"

AC was not the type to be un-stimulated by the scruffy, dirty, grimy, ugly, or aged, at least as Symonds tells it.
No I agree, he wasn't: his 1918 advertisement as an artist living in Greenwich Village called for the most physically unattractive & potentially repellent prospective models (and sexual partners). It doubtless comes under the full ramifications of his Thelemic philosophy, to unite with every possible thing employing love under will no matter how unattractive & repellent that may seem on the surface (a taste for coprophilia with Leah Hirsig would come under this too, of course.)

And with that thought, I will bid goodnight.
N Joy


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ignant666
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31/07/2018 10:28 pm  

I got an email from a former lashtalian who prefers not to post here, but allowed me to quote:

I believe that I have the answer to your query about Clapham Junction. Viz this from Two Argonauts In Spain (1904), by Jerome Alfred Hart, pp161,162.

"When a tourist is around London, he soon comes to the conclusion that it is almost impossible to get into or out of the big city without passing through Clapham Junction. In leaving London, Clapham seems to be the gateway to Great Britain. So Bobadilla seems to be the Clapham Junction of Southern Spain."

Clapham Junction was, therefore, the gateway to the country, or, contrariwise, to the city, and it was a common-place simile to that effect. In the context of your query, it would therefore seem to indicate Babalon as the Gateway of the City.

And, if you are a fan of British film, as am I, you might care to look at Two Way Stretch (1960). The penultimate scene, with Peter Sellers as "Dodger Lane", the debonair crim, and his dim offsider, Lennie "The Dip" Price, played by Bernard Cribbins, finishes with this, after they have just lost the purloined bag of diamonds by it being whisked away by an unexpected, passing train:

Lennie: "That wasn't the mail train, was it George?"
Dodger: "No, it wasn't."
Lennie: "Blimey, what are we gonna do now, Dodger?"
Dodger: "Change at Clapham Junction."

This is certainly good stuff, but as i replied to him, "I still don't think you have gotten at why Hanni Jaeger looked "like Clapham Junction" during the Opus."


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belmurru
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01/08/2018 10:31 am  

How about "like Clapham Junction" meant that Hanni was "all over the place", "going in every direction", etc?

Perhaps, at the end of it, she was splayed out on the bed in a configuration that reminded him of a map like this -

Plan of Clapham Junction, 1912


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wellreadwellbred
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01/08/2018 1:00 pm  

Do you know what year this map is from, belmurru?


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belmurru
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01/08/2018 3:33 pm  

1912, if the bottom left corner is to be believed (not that it is easy to see).


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wellreadwellbred
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01/08/2018 7:01 pm  

Aha, thanks!

"“[Opus] 24 To bring out her Art.
“This was the best Op¬[us] I remember at all in my whole life. She looked like Clapham Junction. Later she broke down into a very long fit of hysterical sobbing, which I think cleared up her trouble of mind. “I want to be of some use in the world.””" (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/clapham-junction/#post-108619)

Anyone know what Aleister Crowley's use of "Opus" or "Op¬[us]" is a codeword for here?


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ignant666
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01/08/2018 7:43 pm  

Sex magick.


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wellreadwellbred
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01/08/2018 8:34 pm  

All right, thanks!

Did Aleister Crowley also use “Opus” or “Op¬[us]” as a codeword for Sex magick in other Sources?


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Michael Staley
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01/08/2018 9:18 pm  

@wellreadwellbred

Did Aleister Crowley also use “Opus” or “Op¬[us]” as a codeword for Sex magick in other Sources?

In the 1930 diary as typed from Crowley's holograph by Kenneth Grant in the late 1940s (these typescripts are accessible in the Gerald Yorke Collection at the Warburg Institute, London), the word in this particular entry is "Op.". The square brackets in the transcription above are doubtless a later interpolation by some scholar or other. Prior to the account of the "Op.", Crowley records that "We drank quite a lot of Brandy", which probably played a part in the subsequent "very long fit of hysterical sobbing".

But yes, "Opus" is used by Crowley to denote sex-magical opetations, such as here albeit reduced to the rather more more snappy "Op.". He also used a symbol of a cross and circle, the intersection of the cross forming the centre of the circle (geddit?).


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wellreadwellbred
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02/08/2018 11:39 pm  

Michael Staley : "He also used a symbol of a cross and circle, the intersection of the cross forming the centre of the circle (geddit?)."

Can the circle and cross on the so-called grid page from Liber AL vel Legis (shown below), and "this circle squared" mentioned within the text on that page, be understood as a symbol and a codeword denoting sex-magical operations? Grid page from The Book of the Law


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Jamie J Barter
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03/08/2018 1:11 am  

Tangential Trivia Dept.:

And, if you are a fan of British film, as am I, you might care to look at Two Way Stretch (1960)
Aficionados of post-war black and white British crime comedy 'capers' might also be familiar with The Lavender Hill Mob, about tourist-sold (and schoolgirl-bought) Eiffel Towers made from melted down ill-gotten gold furnished from such a caper. Lavender Hill is almost literally a stone's throw down the road from Clapham Junction.

Another similar classic film of this nature is The Ladykillers, similarly set within a poetic pebbles throw of, to the north, King's Cross Station.

In leaving London, Clapham seems to be the gateway to Great Britain. So Bobadilla seems to be the Clapham Junction of Southern Spain.”
'Gateway to the South' might bring memories back to some people of an alternate locale --- one Balham (pronounced Ballum as in Gollum, not Bal-Ham, you Americans!) as espoused by the aforementioned 'Dodger', Peter Sellers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RTWk9QIKS0

Returning to the OP we seem to be no nearer to answering the conundrum of how AC got it up with Hanni Jaeger looking like Clapham Junction - whatever that means but hard to imagine is anything flattering. Also the well known formula:
Lots of Brandy + a neurotic let alone psychotic temperament = never usually a good idea
is normally pretty tight. (watertight).

"And is there honey still for tea?" ---Honey's off, dear!
N JoY

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@wellreadwellbred :

Can the circle and cross on the so-called grid page from Liber AL vel Legis (shown below), and “this circle squared” mentioned within the text on that page, be understood as a symbol and a codeword denoting sex-magical operations?

What then is your understanding of the "straight" line in this context?


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ignant666
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03/08/2018 1:24 am  

I had another email from my not-posting-here-anymore correspondent, about the already-mentioned slang phrase "up the junction" (meaning "in trouble"), and the Squeeze song of the same name.

In replying to him, i may have hit upon the answer- AC is simply making a typically sniggeringly-juvenile (as he invariably was about sex, if not waxing poetic/Biblical (sometimes he did both at once, of course)) pun about how "fucked" Hanni looked after the best "Op." he could recall.

"Fucked", as all native English speakers know, is more often used to mean "badly off"/"in trouble" than literally "post-intercourse".

Hanni "looked like Clapham Junction" because she was well fucked.


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Jamie J Barter
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03/08/2018 1:48 am  

Hanni “looked like Clapham Junction” because she was well fucked.

Ah, so you mean not so much during as after!? That puts a completely different perspective on it and --- Bai Jove! (if you'll pardon my ejaculation & to echo the sentiments of Professor Enry Iggins as played by Rex Harrison): I think you've got it!

Yours in the spirit of eroto-comatose-lucidity,
n Joy

PS
email from my not-posting-here-anymore correspondent,

Without breaking any confidential vows of secrecy, is there any particular reason why not, anymore? And is it anyone we might particularly remember? Just being curious/ inquisitive/ downright nosey...


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ignant666
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03/08/2018 2:11 am  

My mystery correspondent said he "refuse[d] to post" here because a thread he participated in was "terminated" about ten years ago. He mentioned his forum name, one i don't recall, but then it was ten years ago.

As he seems an erudite and pleasant person (something we can always use more of around these parts), i think that's a pity, but "different strokes for different folks" [African-American Vernacular English phrase meaning "Do What Thou Wilt"].


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Jamie J Barter
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03/08/2018 2:35 am  

Ah! You'll hopefully excuse me if I'm a little underwhelmed by this revelation, Travis. (I wonder if "terminated" meant locked or made to disappear in the boundless aether...)

Yes, we can certainly do with more erudite and pleasant personages --- Bring 'em on! And if you're reading this Los, come back & give us all a taste of your new found mastery...

To continue with the tenuous Peter Sellers connection: as Spike Milligna was wont to mutter at the end of his Q tv programme as he & the rest of the cast shuffled off-camera:
"What are we going to do now? What are we going to do now? What..."

Z Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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03/08/2018 8:20 am  

Jamie J Barter: " And if you’re reading this Los, come back & give us all a taste of your new found mastery…"

Are you a glutton for Los' mastery?

The Book of the Law (Chapter III, verse 47.): "... Let him not seek to try: but one cometh after him, whence I say not, who shall discover the Key of it all. Then this line drawn is a key: then this circle squared in its failure is a key also. And Abrahadabra. It shall be his child & that strangely. Let him not seek after this; for thereby alone can he fall from it."

Me: "Can the circle and cross on the so-called grid page from Liber AL vel Legis (shown below), and “this circle squared” mentioned within the text on that page, be understood as a symbol and a codeword denoting sex-magical operations?"

Jamie J Barter: "What then is your understanding of the “straight” line in this context?"

That the “straight” line in this context is the location of the Nile river in relation to a location where Crowley did a sex-magical operation, an operation marked with a circle and cross. To tie all this in, well, way back in yonder years, hints were given on this site to look carefully at the handwritten manuscript of The Book of the Law, at the so-called "Stele of Revealing", and at a map of the capital of Egypt, Cairo, to find the meaning of Chapter II verse 76 of The Book Of The Law, and the Cipher in that verse.

"Let him not seek after this; for thereby alone can he fall from it.", the preceding words written by Crowley within The Book the Law, can be his warning to himself. A warning not to seek to be to open about certain cryptic parts of this book, as this could could put him in danger of exposing how a key to understanding its creation, was a prepared and preplaned sex-magical operation. Given that such a sex-magical operation involved homosexual acts, exposure of it would lead to Crowley's (public) downfall, as two years' hard labour was the maximum penalty for "gross indecency with men", as this was a crime according to English Law at that time. (Source: Section 11 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 - - - Section 11 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885).


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wellreadwellbred
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03/08/2018 9:11 am  

Or the Key of, rather than "a key to": "... this could could put him in danger of exposing how the Key of understanding its creation, was a prepared and preplaned sex-magical operation. Given that such a sex-magical operation involved homosexual acts, exposure of it would lead to Crowley’s (public) downfall, as two years’ hard labour was the maximum penalty for “gross indecency with men”, as this was a crime according to English Law at that time. "


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Jamie J Barter
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03/08/2018 10:32 am  

@wellreadwellbred :

Are you a glutton for Los’ mastery?
Hardly! Difficult to be a glutton for something for which there is has been precious little manifestation --- I was only asking for the merest whisper of a "taste"!

That the “straight” line in this context is the location of the Nile river in relation to a location where Crowley did a sex-magical operation, an operation marked with a circle and cross. To tie all this in, well, way back in yonder years, hints were given on this site to look carefully at the handwritten manuscript of The Book of the Law, at the so-called “Stele of Revealing”, and at a map of the capital of Egypt, Cairo, to find the meaning of Chapter II verse 76 of The Book Of The Law, and the Cipher in that verse.
Oh that old chestnut! Aren't there several other threads already dealing with this at length, including this 'geographical' solution proposed by, if I remember correctly, faustian (he of the avatar photograph of a middle aged gentleman in the attitude of & resembling a constipated owl)?

how the Key of understanding its creation, was a prepared and preplaned sex-magical operation. Given that such a sex-magical operation involved homosexual acts, exposure of it would lead to Crowley’s (public) downfall, as two years’ hard labour was the maximum penalty for “gross indecency with men”, as this was a crime according to English Law at that time. “
Odd that he never seemed to have explained this verbally/ orally to any of his 'disciples', though?

Here we go again?
J Noy


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wellreadwellbred
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04/08/2018 8:27 am  

Jamie J Barter: Odd that he never seemed to have explained this verbally/ orally to any of his ‘disciples’, though?

It is also odd that he never seemed to have explained to any of his ‘disciples’ ( - like for example Hanni Jaeger that according to him "looked like Clapham Junction" in one instance after after he had performed sexual magic with her - ) that he knew and practised sex magic both well before 1904 (when he according to himself received The Book of the Law associated with him), and that him doing ritual work with sex magic, was something that led up to the writing of this book.

And it is also odd that Crowley according to his The Book of Lies (original limited edition, 1913 (or, if a lie, probably 1912)), first became enlightened to the efficacy of sex magic when Theodore Reuss, head of the O.T.O. at the time visited Crowley around 1912 or 13 and told him that he'd exposed the Supreme Secret of the O.T.O. in his recently published The Book of Lies. Particularly with respect to that his own ritual work with sex magic led up to the writing of the said The Book of the Law, and with respect to him having 'scribed' three sex magical books before 1912 or 1913. Respectively Liber Stellae Rubeae (Liber 66) written Nov. 25, 1907, Liber Cheth vel Vallum Abiegni (Liber 156) written 1911, and Liber A’ash vel Capricorni Pneumatici (Liber 370), also written in 1911.

Jamie J Barter: "Aren’t there several other threads already dealing with this at length, including this ‘geographical’ solution proposed by, if I remember correctly, faustian (he of the avatar photograph of a middle aged gentleman in the attitude of & resembling a constipated owl)?"

Can you point me to the most informative of those "several other threads"?

And did this ‘geographical’ solution strike you as being the one Crowley referred to here in his The New Comment, to AL II,75?: "Be ye well assured all that the solution, when it is found, will be unquestionable. It will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction."


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Jamie J Barter
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04/08/2018 3:31 pm  

@wellreadwellbred :

Can you point me to the most informative of those “several other threads”?
Well there are two I can think of - you don't mind if I call you well, well? - but the only one that immediately springs to mind is the one which was curiously reactivated one month ago by our old acquaintance "anonymous" (after 11 years!) and is consequently now perched at the top of the "Qabalah" board. It's titled "Babalon as the key", and the bit I think you need is about the line etc from faustian is just over half way down page 3 and as it proceeds onwards from there. I don't think it ever gave any sort of a final answer, though( !)
Maybe someone else can help with the other(s), I don't really have the time to search it for you just now. Perhaps Lashtal (Paul) might recall more, as I believe he was actively involved in this 'geographical' grid references discussion at some point in it?

And did this ‘geographical’ solution strike you as being the one Crowley referred to here in his The New Comment, to AL II,75?: “Be ye well assured all that the solution, when it is found, will be unquestionable. It will be marked by the most sublime simplicity, and carry immediate conviction.”
No, not "as being the one". There is not enough proper information in yet to arrive at a considered opinion, for one thing. But if you intend to discuss this further it might be more appropriate to do so on another thread to "Clapham Junction"...

Tidily yours,
N Joy


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William Thirteen
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27/08/2018 3:57 pm  

passed through without issue last week...

edit: uncertain as to why the image link is not working. ideas anyone?


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Brigitte Gorez Santos
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27/08/2018 6:08 pm  

https://binged.it/2BR1uZD

I think when you look at it from the right angle, it looks like a stick figure with arms open and legs akimbo...


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Jamie J Barter
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28/08/2018 10:23 am  

Amazing that this train still seems to have mileage left in it down this particular railroad track!

Clapham Junction certainly doesn't look particularly busy in this photograph --- anything but! It also seems to be uncharacteristically clean and tidy --- no trace of it being scruffy, dirty or grimy...

I wonder whether this could be what Mary Poppins might look like post-coitus instead?

N Joy


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William Thirteen
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28/08/2018 11:41 am  

While i'd waited to take the photo until the two trains blocking my view of the sign had departed, this is also an effect of ascendance of the horseless carriage...


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