Former OTO "facilities manager" convicted of second murder...  

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Keith418
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05/06/2014 4:27 pm  

'Taylor had joined the Gnostic Catholic Church — part of a fraternal organization that preaches the Law of Thelema, a mystical and religious system that is unrelated to mainline Roman Catholic beliefs — and served as a facility manager for the church’s temple in Portland.

(...)

The parole board reviewed Lehman’s report along with letters from Taylor and four of his supporters, including his church’s bishop, Henry Hadeed.

On Feb. 14, 2007, the board issued Taylor a parole discharge certificate, which read in part that Taylor’s “final release is not incompatible with the parolee’s welfare or that of society.”'

- from http://special.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/28653024-41/taylor-prison-parole-board-convicted.html.csp

Here is part of the letter Bishop Henry Hadeed wrote:

"As an authorized Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica residing in Portland, OR, I have become well acquainted with David Taylor through his exemplary participation as a lay member of our congregation in a variety of settings and contexts (for example, in his frequent role as an assisting officer in the celebration of our principal liturgy). From my observations, based upon this experience, I have found that David consistently displays an outstanding degree of personal integrity, dedication, honesty, dependability, industriousness, intelligence, self control, and overall good will.

"I strongly support his full release and discharge from parole, and gladly look forward to the further contributions he will undoubtedly make as a valued member of our Church."

Read the two time killer and rapist's poetry here (it's on page 18):

http://sekhetmaat.com/wiki/images/Vol12no1web.pdf

How the trial ended:

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/31607432-75/taylor-death-gutierrez-convicted-eugene.html.csp

A former body master informed me that in addition to his other roles, the now twice convicted killer was also both a Student and a Probationer in the Gunther A.'.A.'.

A friend noted:

"I'm still shaken by the unbridled praise Hank poured on Taylor in his letter to the parole board. I can't read it anymore without the echo of the trial coverage and DRJ's added details ringing in my ears. It's like a nightmare mashup.

"As an authorized Bishop of Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica residing in Portland, OR, I have become well acquainted with David Taylor through his exemplary participation as a lay member of our congregation in a variety of settings and contexts (for example, in his frequent role as an assisting officer in the celebration of our principal liturgy). From my observations, based upon this experience, I have found that David consistently displays an outstanding degree of...

"...personal integrity,"

"The jury further found Taylor guilty of kidnapping and robbing Gutierrez, and abusing Gutierrez’s corpse."

"...dedication,"

"As we learned in the past DRT wanted to feed the corpse to Wretha's dogs, Mercedes 'Sadie" Crabtree confirmed this detail but added that he had boiled some of the limbs and was considering eating them."

"...honesty,"

"David Ray Taylor shook his head vigorously and told the judge presiding over his murder trial that he had no desire to tell a jury his side of a story that prosecutors have characterized as a tale of horror."

"...dependability,"

"Taylor is in the rare position of facing a possible murder conviction after having previously been found guilty of murder. He served 27 years in prison for the shotgun slaying of a Eugene gas station attendant in 1977. The state parole board, on a 2-to-1 vote, granted Taylor’s release in 2004."

"...industriousness,"

"The jury also convicted Taylor on 22 felony robbery charges, in connection with two bank robberies committed in 2012."

"...intelligence,"

"Taylor, 58, allegedly had two younger accomplices stage a dispute outside a Eugene bar that worked to lure Gutierrez to Taylor’s home shortly before 1 a.m. on Aug. 3, 2012. Prosecutors say that after Gutierrez was killed at the house, Taylor and another suspect in the case dismembered his body."

"...self control,"

"Sadie also testified that DRT had an erection, visible through his pants, from the time AJ Nelson began wiring up poor Tino, all the way through the dismemberment."

"...and overall good will."

"A Lane County jury this afternoon found David Ray Taylor guilty of three counts of aggravated murder in the death of 22-year-old Eugene resident Celestino Gutierrez."


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Shiva
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05/06/2014 5:23 pm  

Kee-rist on a pogo stick!
What next?


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Keith418
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05/06/2014 5:51 pm  

Taylor was arrested for this murder on the heels of another OTO related murderer/prison ministry scandal in 2012 e.v.

Read the Wikipedia entry on this child killer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Ray_Wallace

Now read his obituary here.

http://lib.oto-usa.org/agape/agape.7.1.pdf

It's on page 11 of the pdf.

At the time I wrote:

"Is it just me or is this utterly appalling? The OTO tries to deny that the mass murderer Mathew Murray was a "member" of the Order because he was "only" a Minerval. They then proceed to count new Minervals as "new members" on annual reports. But this self-serving and transparently hypocritical stance cannot be taken here. Instead, they seem proud of the fact that the OTO had an "associate member" in prison who was there for killing four people - including two kids under the age of six! You will notice that the victims of Donald Ray Wallace aren't even mentioned in his glowing notice in Agape. How crazy is this?

"I missed this the first time because I cannot bear to read Agape all that closely - it's too silly, stupid, and depressing. But I have a hard time understanding how Sabazius could approve of this kind of notice. Is our connection to this killer really something we want to advertise and be proud of? How does the fact that he memorized Liber Al while in prison make up for the fact that he murdered a four year old boy and a five year old girl - and two other people - in cold blood? If he had killed the children of one of the OTO's leaders would this thing have ever appeared in an official OTO newsletter? Please!

"My friends and many other people in the Order know I have long condemned the OTO's "prison ministry" program. Unlike other organizations, we cannot even pretend we have resources that can "help" prisoners. We - as an organization - made $6 last year. Our Holy Books have gone out of print. We own no buildings. We also do not operate any hospitals or schools. What can we give prisoners? And, more importantly, do we want want they give us? Given our own myriad internal problems it is the height of hubris and stupidity to think we can run an operation like this successfully. The "prison ministry" needs to be officially ended immediately.

"Some leaders have attempted to justify the program to me by insisting that by maintaining an "orthodox" presence in the prison system, the OTO prevents criminals and prisoners from organizing their own "unorthodox" Thelemic cults - underground efforts that would, surely, give us a bad name and lead to PR problems. Given this obituary, it seems like the members of the OTO are perfectly capable of embarrassing the organization in an approved and "orthodox" fashion.

"Sabazius needs to hold himself accountable on this. And the members have to demand that he do so. As disgusting a spectacle as this obituary for a child killer is, the silence from the OTO that will greet this revelation is going to be even worse."

Sabazius DID respond to this disgusting obituary. You can read his first response here:

http://invisiblebasilica.blogspot.com/2012/08/93-in-1980-e.html

After this appalling attempt at denial and face-saving, he had to try to back-pedal:

http://invisiblebasilica.blogspot.com/2012/08/drw-postscript.html

Note the date of this one: August 14, 2012 e.v.

Two days later David Ray Taylor, who - like Donald Ray Wallace was also part of the OTO's "Prison Ministry" - was arrested.


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Shiva
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05/06/2014 6:50 pm  

Well. Okay. But this is rather old news. The blogs were from Aug 2012, but even those are almost two years old. It is possible that murdering freaks can appear within (or loosely affiliated with) any religion or philosophical entity. So any links to OTO are neither here nor there. It seems you (Keith) are not pleased with how OTO "authorities" handled the matter. You may be right. It almost seems as though the "handling" was a measure of self-defense (defense of image and proclamation of non-involvement.

I was not aware of any "prison ministry." This seems like a foolish concept - but them who am I to judge?

I am also intrigued by the $6 profit figure. Was this in a year? Was this for Portland OTO, or OTO-USA, or OTO-Int'l? Also, OTO is supposed to be a non-profit-org, so such orgs must usually use creative bookkeeping in order to NOT show a profit, as any profit is essentially forbidden by the establishment. Of course, ANY funds channeled into a "prision ministry" seem to be a waste of time, although such concepts are often linked to religious organizations.

I am not trying to make any specific point here, nor to be critical of you or OTO - I'm just making some observations and comments. Since OTO has decided that Solar Lodge was NOT an OTO-linked org, then all of this is really none of my business.

But then, Solar Lodge operated in such a manner that it had piles of cash and tons of property. So I can't help but wonder what we did "right" and current OTO is doing "wrong" in the financial department. I'll probably never know.


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wellreadwellbred
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05/06/2014 7:00 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
But then, Solar Lodge operated in such a manner that it had piles of cash and tons of property. So I can't help but wonder what we did "right" and current OTO is doing "wrong" in the financial department. I'll probably never know.

Shiva, in which one of your books, do you in most detail describe the manners of the operations leading to the Solar Lodge, having "had piles of cash and tons of property"? And what was the Solar Lodge's policy on prospective members with a conviction for murder, or for current members being convicted for murder?


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Keith418
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05/06/2014 7:09 pm  

“I do blame the Catholic Church,” says Corless. “I blame the families as well but people were afraid of the parish priest. I think they were brainwashed. I suppose the lesson is not to be hiding things. To face up to reality.

“My fear is that if things aren’t faced now it’s very easy to slide back into this kind of cover-up again. I want the truth out there. If you give people too much power it’s dangerous.”

(from http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Galway-historian-reveals-truth-behind-800-orphans-in-mass-grave.html)

People in the OTO often look down on "brainwashed" Christians. If they let their own leadership slide, are they any different?


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Shiva
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05/06/2014 7:55 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
Shiva, in which one of your books, do you in most detail describe the manners of the operations leading to the Solar Lodge, having "had piles of cash and tons of property"?

That would be Inside Solar Lodge - Behind the Veil, where a reviewer jumped on the bandwagon by saying:

"The truth about the Solar Lodge is important, because if nothing else, it served as a bridge between the disappointing Agape Lodge and the later emergence of O.T.O. Inc. It was a shaky bridge, to be sure, but it was financially successful, something Crowley would have loved to have seen from Agape Lodge … In one respect, Solar Lodge had been at that point the only successful implementation of Crowley’s O.T.O. vision yet, anywhere in the world, because they did it "in business way!" … This was not a bunch of acid-addled hippies just imagining in the cannabis smoke a new way of life, outside the system. They were well on their way to making it happen - a more or-less self-sustaining Thelemic community."

The buildup of funds was certainly not from initiation fees or dues and subscriptions, as that aspect of the Lodge operated at a loss. And it wasn't from publishing, as that aspect was just a hobby and turned no profit. The income/profit came from old fashioned hard work. We operated a bookstore, a gas station, a dental office, and a cafe. These ventures were staffed by initiates (period - no outsiders).

And what was the Solar Lodge's policy on prospective members with a conviction for murder, or for current members being convicted for murder?

Well, there was no policy because no prospective member was ever a murderer (or even had a criminal record). And no "current" member was ever involved in a murder.

Although, humorously, we were accused of kidnapping and killing a dental student, and then burying his body under our statue of a buddha that resided in plain view of the street at Solar Lodge #1 on 30th Street in Los Angeles. 😮  This accusation came from some mindless,  left-field fanatic, and it never got to an official investigation by the Establishment.

Isn't it a hoot to learn that the last I heard of the remnants of Solar Lodge, there were only 8 members left - and one of them was the supposed victim of the Buddha-burial.  😉


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wellreadwellbred
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06/06/2014 12:21 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
The buildup of funds was certainly not from initiation fees or dues and subscriptions, as that aspect of the Lodge operated at a loss. And it wasn't from publishing, as that aspect was just a hobby and turned no profit. The income/profit came from old fashioned hard work. We operated a bookstore, a gas station, a dental office, and a cafe. These ventures were staffed by initiates (period - no outsiders).

My impression from the information you provide, is that Solar Lodge in its time could stand up to the Scientologists when it came to being effective at building up funds, as the latter have historically been good at building up funds. Am I right in having such an impression Shiva?

"Shiva" wrote:
Well there was no policy [about murder convictions] because no prospective member was ever a murderer (or even had a criminal record). And no "current" member was ever involved in a murder.

Although, humorously, we were accused of kidnapping and killing a dental student, and then burying his body under our statue of a buddha that resided in plain view of the street at Solar Lodge #1 on 30th Street in Los Angeles. 😮 

The Scientology movement founded by L. Ron Hubbard, has a reputation for hostile action toward its perceived enemies, and anyone who criticizes it in a public forum. A document from him about  the "correct procedure" for attacking enemies of Scientology, dated 25 February 1966, and titled Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, contains the following:

"I speak from 15 years of experience in this. There has never yet been an attacker who was not reeking with crime. All we had to do was look for it and murder would come out. "

Was the Solar Lodge critical of Scientology in public forums, or did the Scientology movement founded by L. Ron Hubbard perceive the Solar Lodge to be an enemy of Scientology? And if so, was the Solar Lodge targeted with more or less subtle accusations of being a criminal and or disreputable organization?

***And by the way, in which of your books (if any), do you provide most details about the relationship between the Solar Lodge and Scientologists?


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newneubergOuch2
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06/06/2014 6:46 am  

Took long enough to move from the FB thelemite pages and others to finally make it to lashtal.


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newneubergOuch2
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06/06/2014 8:59 am  

Took long enough to move from the FB thelemite pages and others to finally make it to lashtal.but fair enough as the court case just finished.
An interesting read thank you.


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Keith418
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06/06/2014 4:33 pm  

I keep wondering if there are many other cases like this that they have managed to cover up. There were many things that came up in the trial that did not make it into the newspaper accounts - namely slides shown during the trial of Taylor's magical tools, his copy of Liber Al, and the fact that he took a "trophy" from his victim and burned it while speaking in an a language that "wasn't English."

I'm sure the OTO's leaders are desperately hoping that this story, and their own involvement with this rapist and killer, while knowing he was already guilty of one previous brutal murder, doesn't make the larger media. But I worry that unless people know about this situation and really learn from it, the same thing will keep happening over and over again.


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Shiva
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06/06/2014 7:08 pm  
"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
My impression from the information you provide, is that Solar Lodge in its time could stand up to the Scientologists when it came to being effective at building up funds, as the latter have historically been good at building up funds. Am I right in having such an impression Shiva?

Well, yes and no. Solar Lodge only had about 75 members overall (1965-72), and about 50 members at its high point (1969). Scientology had hundreds of members in L.A. alone, and thousands of members around the globe. I am guessing at these figures. On a per capita basis, Solar Lodge generated a very healthy income. For example, when it came time to sell 4 "mansion" propeties in L.A., the profit was exactly one million dollars. I am unable to compare Solar Lodge with other organizations because I don't have anybody's financial statements. But the one thing that overwhelmingly counted is found in these quotes from Inside Solar Lodge:

"Time and time again, various researchers and commentators have remarked upon Solar Lodge's rapid growth, its apparently effortless rise to financial independence, and its unusual application of the A.'.A.'. curriculum to daily life in a group setting.  Other, similar, organizations often appear to grow slowly, to always need or want more money, and they would probably lose a good portion of their membership if the A.'.A.'. Tasks of the Grades was the measuring stick of their common, everyday reality."

... and ...

"WE WERE TOTALLY BROKE when Capricornus finally found her way back to California [in 1966]. There was not even enough money to buy food.  The new age of false economics had arrived and silver coins were no longer being minted. But many silver coins were still in circulation and I had been gathering them in a large jar. This treasure, about seventy-five dollars worth, became our only source for the required, daily funds that allowed us to keep living. We put the valuable silver coins back into circulation. They didn't last very long, but neither did the financial crisis."

... and ...

"All financing came from Frater Sol's salary as a high-school teacher, from rental of the apartments, and later, from Frater Shem's donated income as a dentist, which actually was in the form of goods and not cash. The rental amount paid by USC students and resident members alike was very inexpensive. All funds went into the Work as fast as they came in. There was never a problem with money and there was never a shortage of cash. But, at the same time in those early years, there was never a big pile of cash just sitting around."

"Piles of cash just sitting around" came later.

"wellreadwellbred" wrote:
The Scientology movement founded by L. Ron Hubbard, has a reputation for hostile action toward its perceived enemies, and anyone who criticizes it in a public forum. Was the Solar Lodge critical of Scientology in public forums, or did the Scientology movement founded by L. Ron Hubbard perceive the Solar Lodge to be an enemy of Scientology?
... In which of your books (if any), do you provide most details about the relationship between the Solar Lodge and Scientologists?

We had connections within the Los Angeles Police Department - connections that intimately studied that org and its alleged tendency to condone hostiliies against ex-members and critics. What were the results of those "studies" (investigations)?  I believe they (the results) have been extensively published in many places, so I certainly don't need to comment further here on a public forum. Solar Lodge was NOT/NEVER critical of Scientology in any public manner.

Nowhere in any of my books does the word "Scientology" appear.


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 Anonymous
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07/06/2014 12:26 am  
"Shiva" wrote:
I am also intrigued by the $6 profit figure. Was this in a year? Was this for Portland OTO, or OTO-USA, or OTO-Int'l? Also, OTO is supposed to be a non-profit-org, so such orgs must usually use creative bookkeeping in order to NOT show a profit, as any profit is essentially forbidden by the establishment. Of course, ANY funds channeled into a "prision ministry" seem to be a waste of time, although such concepts are often linked to religious organizations.

A non-profit organization is not forbidden "by the establishment" from earning and showing a profit in a given fiscal year. This is a gross misunderstanding of what the term "non-profit" means, which results from people merely looking at the word and deciding for themselves what they think it means. You can read more about the actual difference between for-profit and non-profit corporations in the U.S. here: http://www.entrepreneur.com/encyclopedia/nonprofit-corporation


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 12:59 am  

I was recently corrected by an authority that "not-for-profit" is the correct expression, as opposed to the common expression "non-profit".

Anyway, I'd prefer to join an organization with an actual PROPHET...


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 2:02 am  
"Magickal" wrote:
I was recently corrected by an authority that "not-for-profit" is the correct expression, as opposed to the common expression "non-profit".

Oooo! An "authority" you say?  I guess the non-profit corporation (yes, that was the exact term used by the IRS back in 1967) I formed wasn't real?

Maybe today the terminology has changed, but we all know they mean the same thing.


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 2:12 am  
"fraternovaeres" wrote:
A non-profit organization is not forbidden "by the establishment" from earning and showing a profit in a given fiscal year.

Yes, and your link indicates that "With a nonprofit, any money that's left after the organization has paid its bills is put back into the organization."

So enough legal hair-splitting please. Let's get back to those orgs that commit (or condone) homocide.


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thiebes
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07/06/2014 4:29 am  

David Taylor was not a member of OTO. As such, he was not eligible for office in the Lodge. As such, he was not facilities manager, nor was he ever called that. I don't know where the Register-Guard got its info, but it is false.

Source: direct experience as Lodge Master during the time that David Taylor attended events at Sekhet-Maat Lodge, and Lodge policy documents which remain available on the SML website.


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Keith418
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07/06/2014 5:57 am  

I have Henry Hadeed's entire letter and all of David Ray Taylor's prison records as obtained from the state of Oregon.

Despite being a "non-member" he certainly performed in the Mass on numerous occasions - as his bishop's own glowing letter to the state corrections department states.

I asked a former SML officer on 8/28/12 (at 12:58 PM PST):

"Could they really have made him "facilities manager"?

The SML officer answered: "Yeah, he was."


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thiebes
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07/06/2014 9:40 am  

I cannot account for your anonymous "SML officer" but they have their facts wrong.

Taylor was not eligible for the office of facilities manager according to the Lodge bylaws and standing rules (which are still on the website), did not serve in the capacity of facilities manager, was not installed as facilities manager (as was the norm at the time, and you can search the archived calendar to see all the installation ceremonies if you like), and was not called facilities manager by anyone in email announcements (all archived on the website). In fact I even have private email correspondence where his lack of eligibility for the office, and the fact that he was never installed as such, are explicitly discussed towards the end of his time of attending events at the Lodge.


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Keith418
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07/06/2014 2:28 pm  

Then maybe the people in Oregon needs to get their stories straight and demand the paper print a retraction.

From my same conversation on 8/28/12 e.v.

Former SML Officer: (1:33 PM):

(On the whole facilities manager thing. Back then everyone was a fucking "manager" or "coordinator" or "officer" of something. People were fond of titles. Facilities manager basically meant that he kept the place clean, as far as I remember.)

Keith418: It's just weird to give this guy anything when he wasn't even a minerval (1:33 PM)

Former SML Officer: Yeah. He was the only non-Minerval with a title like that. (1:34 PM)

The bishop's letter, which so far no one has denied, nor its contents, nor the fact that the lodge published the already convicted killer's material in its newsletter, all speak quite eloquently.

In his letter to the parole board ( 6/15/2006 e.v.) Bishop Hadeed speaks of the convicted killer's "frequent role as an assisting officer" at the Mass.


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 4:11 pm  

I'd be interested in what Frater Hrumachis has to say on the subject; but frankly holding an organization accountable for the actions of a member is like holding a member accountable for the actions of that organization.


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Keith418
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07/06/2014 4:33 pm  

Please read Sabazius's own words about the way officers represent the OTO in the new issue of Agape.

http://lib.oto-usa.org/agape/agape.14.1.pdf

When the officers go to bat for a convicted killer, writing glowing letters of praise to get him off state supervision, using their title and the Thelemic greetings in the letter, and then said killer goes on to rape and kill again, then it's hard for me to see how the organization is not implicated.

At least the Catholic Church has expressed remorse for its errors.

This could be an opportunity for the OTO to hold itself accountable and stop trying to sweep the story (and others) under the rug. Wouldn't we all have more respect for it if it did?

Also, I'd like to suggest that people ask themselves that if Wallace and Taylor had murdered members of their own families, how would they feel? If Wallace has slaughtered members of Sabazius's own family, would he have allowed that obituary to appear in Agape? Or if Taylor had killed a member of Hadeed's own family, would he have been so warm and hospitable?

I hope some reporter digs deep and gets to the bottom of this whole mess. Maybe more media exposure will force the OTO to wake up.

One other question: Did Sabazius himself meet Taylor in person?


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 5:07 pm  

I've read the original article published from Aug 2012 in The Register-Guard. Obviously, wanton robbery, rape and murder is beyond the furthest  social boundaries; and Taylor went to prison. He did his time, and was released, at which point he seemed to be keeping it together. A divorce and descent into recidivism led to the further criminal behavior. How he was acquitted of raping a 72-year old grandmother of a former inmate is curious; and perhaps frankly the criminal justice system is to blame for not throwing him back for a longer period, at that point. It seems like the woman was declared to be incapable of being competent. Anyway, why blame the OTO for any if this? I'm not even a member, but it seems like the blame is squarely on SOCIETY.


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Keith418
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07/06/2014 5:44 pm  

Maybe because they welcomed a convicted killer into their midst, let him perform as an officer in the Mass many times, published his poetry and art and advertised his business in their newsletter, then went to bat to get him off parole. I think this shows really poor judgment and since the bishop himself wrote the letter to get him off parole and state supervision...

Like I said, would all of this have happened if he had killed Hadeed's family member? Or Sabazius's family member?


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 6:02 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
Maybe because they welcomed a convicted killer into their midst, let him perform as an officer in the Mass many times, published his poetry and art and advertised his business in their newsletter, then went to bat to get him off parole. I think this shows really poor judgment and since the bishop himself wrote the letter to get him off parole and state supervision...

There are always two (or more) sides to any scenario (as I especially well know 😉 ). But if what you say (in the succinct quote above) is true, well, it is rather peculiar  :o. One can only wonder why a non-initiate (OK - Minerval) would evoke such comradery? This is really a strange deal. Of course, we're all waiting for some official rep of the org to come here to lashtal and explain everything in detail; but I hope nobody's holding their pranayama 'til that happens  😀


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Los
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07/06/2014 6:30 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
At least the Catholic Church has expressed remorse for its errors.

This is an unfair comparison. The Catholic Church is a criminal organization that has aided and abetted crimes by shuffling pedophile priests around and hindering attempts to bring them to justice. The OTO hasn’t done anything like that: it seems that they, at worst, made a serious mistake in judgment.

For me, stories like these point to a fundamental problem in the justice system: that criminals are often given leniency simply for signing up with some religion. There’s a reason that nearly all people behind bars profess a religion of some kind: you get perks for being religious. You get to attend your rituals, go to Bible study groups (or the equivalent), get extra time to talk to people like pastors, and you get special consideration when it comes time for parole.

Personally, I would prefer that criminals do not get any special consideration for going to Bible study meetings – or, in this case, for playing dress up with a bunch of people who like pretending that they’re wizards. I would prefer that parole boards hear the opinion of trained secular psychologists, who can give a more informed professional opinion of an inmate’s readiness to re-enter society. Not some note from a dipshit clergyman who’s all too eager to believe his religion has “transformational power” or whatever.

More broadly, I suspect Keithy-boy’s problem with the OTO’s “prison ministry” is that he probably dislikes the very idea of rehabilitation (one of those “liberal leftist values” that gets him all frothy at the mouth) and he obviously dislikes the OTO marketing their religion as something “good for society,” since – in Keithy-boy’s mind – society has been “poisoned” by those “liberal leftist values,” so anything that’s “good for society” is really aiding those “liberal leftist values,” which he thinks are (somehow?) antithetical to Thelema.

Leaving aside how stupid Keithy-boy’s underlying ideas are – and leaving aside how fundamentally he misunderstands Thelema – I actually find myself somewhat in agreement that the OTO probably shouldn’t be marketing their Thelema-based religion as “good for the world” and that they probably shouldn’t be running a religiously oriented prison ministry.

If they must spread the “good news” to the inhabitants of Oz, I would prefer to see the OTO require their “clergy” to obtain actual training in secular counseling – I mean real degrees from real institutions that offer programs in mental health – and show other religions how to do it right. If they actually did that, maybe in a few decades parole boards would have grounds for respecting the recommendations of OTO folks, which would be supported not by nutty spiritual beliefs but by real therapeutic expertise.

Just an opinion from the sidelines.


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Shiva
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07/06/2014 7:11 pm  

Why is it necessary to descend into immaturity and call Keith "Keithy-boy" (repeatedly).
You are displaying behavior that is called "condescending."  >:(

"Condescending people consider themselves superior to others."

"con·de·scend·ing. adjective. showing or implying a usually patronizing descent from dignity or superiority."

Nobody likes a snide, belittling know-it-all.

Try saying things in a bit more equanimous manner and you will have more friends.


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thiebes
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07/06/2014 7:13 pm  

Well Keith, the fact that you value the gossip of a poorly informed, disgruntled member over the testimony of the person who was sitting Lodge Master at the time, and who has a mountain of documentary evidence, is neither surprising nor inconsistent with your usual approach.

The fact is that Taylor was not an officer and did not have a title at all. So, now you know.

Anyone who wishes to get factual, first-hand information about this situation may write to me via private message here, or at joseph.thiebes@oto-usa.org and I will be happy to answer any questions.


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Keith418
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07/06/2014 7:39 pm  

Bishop Hadeed's own letter said he performed as an "officer" many times.

The OTO made a series of serious mistakes here. It can own up to this or not.

If Sabazius had his own family members slain by Wallace, would he have approved of the "requiem Mass" for him and published that obituary? Would Bishop Hadeed welcomed the convicted killer in if he had killed a member of Hadeed's own family?

I wonder what they would say to Taylor's latest victims' families?


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 8:07 pm  

Well, apparently the sad and terrible murder of this innocent person Celestino Gutierrez Jr., was also carried out by one A.J. Scott Nelson, a recipient of, THE PURPLE HEART; while fighting in Afghanistan.


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 8:10 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
I was recently corrected by an authority that "not-for-profit" is the correct expression, as opposed to the common expression "non-profit".

Oooo! An "authority" you say?  I guess the non-profit corporation (yes, that was the exact term used by the IRS back in 1967) I formed wasn't real?

Maybe today the terminology has changed, but we all know they mean the same thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...me and my SOLAR LODGE AND MY SOLAR LODGE AND MY BOOK ABOUT THE SOLAR LODGE AND ME AND ME AND MY SOLAR LODGE, and oh by the way did I mention my book about the Solar Lodge, and me and me and the Solar Lodge and the Solar Lodge and and The Solar Lodge. And the 60's and the 60's and the hippies and free love and the Solar Lodge and MY BOOK ABOUT THE SOLAR LODGE.


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Keith418
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07/06/2014 8:13 pm  

It should also be noted that Taylor cut up and buried his latest murder victim very close to where he left the body of his first victim.


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Anonymous
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07/06/2014 8:29 pm  
"Keith418" wrote:
It should also be noted that Taylor cut up and buried his latest murder victim very close to where he left the body of his first victim.

And members of The Solar Lodge put a young child captive in a cage under the sweltering California Sun; as well as allegedly being behind the battery of Sasha Germer and theft of items belonging to the Estate of Aleister Crowley. I guess we have to buy the book to read one man, who goes by a moniker of an Indian God, oh wait someone else writing about the OTO did that once, calling himself John Carter, which was a pseudonym.


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Azidonis
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07/06/2014 9:08 pm  
"Magickal" wrote:
I was recently corrected by an authority that "not-for-profit" is the correct expression, as opposed to the common expression "non-profit".

/rolls eyes

"Magickal" wrote:
Anyway, I'd prefer to join an organization with an actual PROPHET...

There's a hole-in-the-wall "church" down the street, led by "Prophet Reverend [insert given name]". I'm sure you would fit right in.


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Shiva
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08/06/2014 1:26 am  
"Magickal" wrote:
Yeah, yeah, yeah...me and my SOLAR LODGE AND MY SOLAR LODGE AND MY BOOK ABOUT THE SOLAR LODGE AND ME AND ME AND MY SOLAR LODGE, etc.

Oh, and by the way, did you notice that I was ASKED about what my book said (by wellreadwellbred himself), and that I did not merely insert myself or the book into the matter, and then I asked folks to get back on topic?

"Magickal" wrote:
And members of The Solar Lodge put a young child captive in a cage under the sweltering California Sun ...

Say, that wasn't Solar Lodge that did that - it was one individual. Wasn't it you who (above) said:

"... but frankly holding an organization accountable for the actions of a member is like holding a member accountable for the actions of that organization."

Also, we note that you seem to be conducting a diatribe against Solar Lodge, and even saying naughty things about Frater Shiva. It's interesting how some folks who are anonymous get really surly and insulting online, hiding behind their keyboards ... but would they use those same words and adopt that same snarly attitude if they were standing face to face? I doubt it.

It is this anonymous ranting and insulting concept that many Thelemites cite when they say how they won't come here to lashtal. Sure, I'm using an avatar, but it's the name I was given by my guru. Anyone can figure out who I am in the civil world, and I routinely invite lashtal members to drop by my martial arts class any Tuesday morning at 10 AM in Belen, NM. Then they can be free to run their mouth and take their chances   Did you know that two lashtal members have actually done just that and have come to class? Yup!

Ah well, it's the weekend. Folks who get this far out of hand on weekends usually end up saying, "I drank too much coffee," or "I had too much (whatever) to drink." Perhaps a little anger management might be precribed?

All orgs seem to have some skeletal member in the closet or they get involved in atrocities. The Roman Catholic Church liked to rack and burn people. Modern day Jihadists like to use AK-47s and car bombs. Keith418 is calling attention to how a certain org handled its media releases in reference to a convicted homocidum. He doesn't seem to be blaming OTO for the murders. Some representative of the org is saying that the perp was not a member/officer, but other rep's statements seem to imply that he (the perp) was certainly a "person of close involvement." That's where the matter now sits, and ... back to that topic; and forget about the substance-abusers who are ranting and being rude  ::)


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Anonymous
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08/06/2014 5:15 am  

Shiva, I think you drew first blood on this one, and I am guilty of being a whining bitch; but the whole theme here is a guy posted something accusing the OTO of essentially harboring and defending a rapist and a murderer. In the past, it was in fact  Hymenaeus Beta who had to confront Ron Sanders about the false association between Charles Manson, Solar Lodge and OTO, convinced him with evidence and then likely threatened legal action - to set the record straight. That comes from Wasserman's memoir, which I don't have in front of me. I also have quite an interest in your memoir. I'd like to get out to NM actually and learn martial arts, but I have to admit Chip Townsend of Abilene TX would be my chosen Sensai.


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jamie barter
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10/06/2014 5:02 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
One can only wonder why a non-initiate (OK - Minerval) would evoke such comradery? This is really a strange deal. Of course, we're all waiting for some official rep of the org to come here to lashtal and explain everything in detail; but I hope nobody's holding their pranayama 'til that happens  😀

This seems furtive behaviour.  Outrageous, even.  Would anyone, whether a member or not, happen to know why this unfortunate but revealing circumstance should be? *innocent look*

"Los" wrote:
[...] Leaving aside how stupid Keithy-boy’s underlying ideas are – and leaving aside how fundamentally he misunderstands Thelema – I actually find myself somewhat in agreement that the OTO probably shouldn’t be marketing their Thelema-based religion as “good for the world” and that they probably shouldn’t be running a religiously oriented prison ministry.

As Los intimates, there are wider aspects to rehabilitation/ redemption being made available to guilty parties through any religion’s “get out of jail” card.

“Prison” ministry?  But just how does any form of "Thelemic" ministry fit, in terms of 'convert not'??

Yours non-avatarishly,
N Joy


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jamie barter
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11/06/2014 12:15 pm  

Reply #20 by Magickal on June 07, 2014 at 4:11:17 pm:
“[...] Frankly holding an organization accountable for the actions of a member is like holding a member accountable for the actions of that organization."

While this might hold true in the O.T.O. for a lowly Minerval (or anyone in the man of Earth degrees and to a lesser extent everyone else beneath IX[sup:1db1xd8x]o[/sup:1db1xd8x]) it should be borne in mind that this doesn’t count at all for the head honcho of the Caliphornian recension Hymenæus Beta himself, of course: the word of this man in the org is the whole of the Law – and simply because his in effect absolute powers are enshrined in the Constitution itself as “autocratic” – the idea being that s/he is some kind of an advanced human beyond normal idiosyncracies and weaknesses known as an ‘enlightened despot’.  Unfortunately, the emphasis has always been more on the ‘despot’ bit rather than ‘enlightened’, but such is the way of the world and one would have thought that the more sceptical A.C. might have realised this before giving rein to such a totalitarian extreme!

"Los" wrote:
The Catholic Church is a criminal organization that has aided and abetted crimes by shuffling pedophile priests around and hindering attempts to bring them to justice.[...]

I’m not saying that it is or it isn’t, but perhaps Los will enlighten us as to what criminal charges - as in, brought out and found guilty in a court of law - the Catholic Church has been pronounced guilty of, to accurately warrant the accusation that it is “a criminal organisation.”  It is not quite the Cosa Nostra, after all.

"Shiva" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
Yeah, yeah, yeah...me and my SOLAR LODGE AND MY SOLAR LODGE AND MY BOOK ABOUT THE SOLAR LODGE AND ME AND ME AND MY SOLAR LODGE, etc.

Oh, and by the way, did you notice that I was ASKED about what my book said (by wellreadwellbred himself), and that I did not merely insert myself or the book into the matter, and then I asked folks to get back on topic?

Yes, I did! (notice).  It has to be said - a rather unfortunate misunderstanding, that!

"Shiva" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
And members of The Solar Lodge put a young child captive in a cage under the sweltering California Sun ...

Say, that wasn't Solar Lodge that did that - it was one individual.

Does this mean that the following amended statement would therefore be correct:

“And a member – one individual – of The Solar Lodge put a young child captive in a cage under the sweltering California Sun; […]”

and also, since the second half of the above sentence remained uncorrected – irrespective of the lawyer’s firm favourite, that “allegedly” – i.e.,

“[…] as well as allegedly being behind the battery of Sascha Germer and theft of items belonging to the estate of Aleister Crowley.”

The implication is that this is not in itself being denied – i.e., poor old Sascha Germer did get “battered” (is that worse than assaulted, one wonders), and items belonging to the A.C. estate were thieved.  It is so important to get these terms right.  Surely the “battery” of a confused, frail, possibly Alzheimer’s-afflicted old lady cannot be explicitly – or even implicitly – condoned here?  How would Lashtalians feel if it was their own mother or grandmother placed in a similar position, one also wonders?  Or does the means justify the ends – i.e., the acquisition of the holy archive overrides all other humanitarian considerations?  And lastly, what would have happened if the traumatised Sascha had, not improbably considering her circumstances, suffered a heart attack from shock during the raid?  How would a charge of manslaughter or even second degree murder have then sat with the Solar Lodge’s much trumpeted “clean” criminal record as a result?  Shiva, you yourself might even have been implicated as an accomplice – and as we know from the precedent of Charles Manson, you wouldn’t even have had to be present at “the scene of the crime”!

Possibly the information is in your BOOK ABOUT THE SOLAR LODGE AND ME AND ME AND MY SOLAR LODGE (did the CAPS button get jammed there, Magickal? - I quote verbatim), but for the benefit of Lashtalians who don’t have a copy & moreover have been unsuccessful in either thieving one or, more regularly, purchasing one through legitimate retail outlets - because, rather like the contents of a certain archive, we might happen to lack it (joke! - but I would actually like to read it, one of these fine days.)

Sigh! “Back to topic” again, I suppose.
N Joy


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Shiva
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11/06/2014 3:21 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
- but I would actually like to read it, one of these fine days.)

An abridged version has been available for perusal, for free, aince 2006, at:
http://mystic-history.angelfire.com/title.htm

Note: "Assault" is an attempt to commit bodily harm. "Battery" is when one actually succeeds (i.e., "connects"). Thus the term, "assault and battery." Interestingly, if a doctor sticks a needle in a patient without permission, it is considered to be "battery."

Now ... back to the topic.


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jamie barter
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11/06/2014 4:53 pm  

Thank you for your considered response there, Shiva.  It’s only fair to say that I should refrain from making any further remark on the matter until I have read more around the subject.  However there are other remaining items more “on topic” that have still not been addressed (but by others than yourself). 

I shall look forward to carefully reading the précis you thoughtfully provided in due course, but couldn’t help noticing the following as I skimmed through at lightning speed -

The entire documentary entitled The True History of Solar Lodge is a shining example of Spiritual Garbage.  It was written in order to “Take out the papers and the trash”

A rather “Liber 333”-ish coast upon matters, perhaps…?! 🙂

Yakety yak,
N Joy


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lashtal
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11/06/2014 6:40 pm  
"Shiva" wrote:
Note: "Assault" is an attempt to commit bodily harm. "Battery" is when one actually succeeds (i.e., "connects").

Really? Maybe so in the US - I wouldn't know. Certainly not the case in the UK, though, where 'assault' is defined, for example, as: 'An assault is any act which intentionally—or possibly recklessly—causes another person to apprehend immediate and unlawful personal violence. Although "assault" is an independent crime and is to be treated as such, for practical purposes today "assault" is generally synonymous with the term "battery" and is a term used to mean the actual intended use of unlawful force to another person without his consent. On the facts of the present case the "assault" alleged involved a "battery."'

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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Shiva
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11/06/2014 7:47 pm  

Yes - "The specific meaning of assault varies between countries."

All quotations (above and below) from Wikipedia.

"An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm ... The term is often confused with battery, which involves physical contact."

"Assault in many US jurisdictions and Scotland is defined more broadly still as any intentional physical contact with another person without their consent; but in England and Wales and in most other common law jurisdictions in the world, this is defined instead as battery."

No matter how defined, both terms are essentially bad news.


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ignant666
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11/06/2014 11:40 pm  

There may be some confusion among civil and criminal law definitions here, as well as, of course, between UK law and the 51+ systems of law employed in the US (50 states, Federal law, military law, laws of various territories, etc).
In civil tort (ie individual v. individual- loser must do some thing for the winner, most often pay money) common law, "assault" and "battery" mean more or less what Shiva says they do in post #38 above; Paul's offered definition (as he seems to realize) actually doesn't contradict what Shiva says: "assault" is creating a reasonable apprehension that physical harm will ensue.
In criminal law (ie the government v. an individual, if the individual loses, he/she goes in a cage), what constitutes "assault" varies greatly by jurisdiction. In the US state where I passed my bar exam (NY), criminal "assault" must include civil "battery", ie there must be injury, not merely apprehension of injury.
I'd also like to point those seeking more info on the Solar Lodge & the "boy in the box" case to the very extensive old thread here discussing that matter.
Hopefully, we can now return to the OT, if there's actually more to be said there?


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Anonymous
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12/06/2014 10:26 pm  

http://leagle.com/decision?q=19811030518FSupp512_1982.xml/VELLE%20TRANSCENDENTAL%20RESEARCH%20AS S'N%20v.%20SANDERS

Good to know there is a lawyer here frankly. I often search the site called LEAGLE.com and found the case above.


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steve_wilson
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17/06/2014 11:39 pm  
"Magickal" wrote:
....t it seems like the blame is squarely on SOCIETY.

I cant believe that anyone on this site is using this crap argument. Society is people doing their will. This scum did his will and people whose will was to become people of authority jailed him for it. It was OTO's will to do prison ministry, but they clearly need guidance.

I (based in  the UK) was initially against the Pagan Federation doing prison ministry. My argument was this:

If someone is jailed for something they didn't do, campaigning for a retrial is the  thing to do, not prison ministry
If someone is jailed for something they did, but which some people consider should not be a crime, (such as possession of marijuana) campaigning for a change in the law is the way to go, not prison ministry.
If someone is in jail for something they did and for which people think merits a jail sentence, let them rot.

However, a PF prison minister explained that is often the prison authorities that request prison ministry just to check that the prisoner is a genuine believer and not just a bored person trying to create work for the prison. One ex-PF prison minister gave up after going to see a convicted murderer whose only interest was in being given accommodation when he got out.

I can see that any prisoner whose entire knowledge of Crowley/Thelema comes from lurid tabloids might suddenly announce to the authorities that he is a Thelemite and enjoy watching them struggle to deal with it. What I cannot understand is a Thelemite falling for this. He did his will, and since 1904 none of us have any right to do anything else, including blaming *society".


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Azidonis
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18/06/2014 1:04 am  
"steve_wilson" wrote:
Society is people doing their will.

Forget the rest... this one sentence is enough to make me lol


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jamie barter
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18/06/2014 12:23 pm  
"steve_wilson" wrote:
"Magickal" wrote:
....t it seems like the blame is squarely on SOCIETY.

I cant believe that anyone on this site is using this crap argument. [...]

"Azidonis" wrote:
"steve_wilson" wrote:
Society is people doing their will.

Forget the rest... this one sentence is enough to make me lol

Oh, dear!!  Let’s not let things get too heated, folks (- Ssst, Hey Hamal, better get your usual reservation ‘ringside seat’ at the ready again…)

“Eh, Eh! Alright, Alright!! Calm down, calm down!!!” as ‘Ga, Ba or Te’ Scouser would say (- dey do do dat dough, don’t dey dough...)
N Joy


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