Home Forums Thelema Astrology Is the Sidereal Zodiac, compatible with ‘Thelemic time’ or ‘Thelemic calendar’?

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  • #102141

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    “The Ordo Templi Orientis” (O.T.O.) {add ‘Typhonian’ to taste} is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria

    Is this not poeticism?  Not whimsy, exactly but..  A little like the quasi-fantasmagorical treatment applied towards Atlantis, as in Liber LI.

    At the danger of somebody accusing me of pulling a tangential tantrum, in addition to the query you have raised Well – and what would be of more interest to me in this article you have quoted from & irrespective of it being what S.’. H.’. Los probably designate ‘ooky-spooky-wookiness’ – would be: what exactly is the specific nature of the forces now erupting in our planet’s ambience and what has been (scientifically) investigated therein, as in:

    One of the Order’s immediate concerns is the formulation of another specialised cell to implement methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience. A potent means of encounter and investigation is a form of magical aesthesis, and a growing body of artist-initiates is now, in consequence, operative within the Order.

    Stella N Joy Conquest

    #102144

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    … methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.

    I was under the impression that in Typhonian circles and thought, “nightside” meant something good, or at least, not bad.  But this seems to suggest something different: what is it that needs to be dealt with in terms of the “eruption”, just what’s supposed to happen if it isn’t, and has there been any advance made in the 31 years since this was written?

    N Joy

    #102149

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    On page 32 in Peter Levenda’s book published in 2013, Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, it is stated that Kenneth Grant’s new form of Thelema, the Typhonian Order, represented what he called the Typhonian/Stellar Current (source: https://books.google.no/books?id=BR327yHJvksC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=%22when+the+stars+are+right%22+%2B+sidereal&source=bl&ots=TxNVBvNM-5&sig=JJOBJCg9uuDWz8T9JWs2S546l3M&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvluH30IPXAhUJKlAKHTjUCWYQ6AEIJjAA#v=snippet&q=stellar%20Current&f=false).

    I am taking into consideration my above quote, and my prior quotes, in this thread, from Peter Levenda’s book Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, and bearing in mind that Kenneth Grant “had little interest in astrology. […] never cast horoscopes nor sought to analyse a situation in terms of astrological configurations (according to Michael Staley’s informative REPLY #102098 in this thread).”. And my general impression is that the “stellar or astral perspective” that is associated with Kenneth Grant in this book, is misleading to the degree that it emphasises astrology, because Kenneth Grant had little interest in astrology.

    #102150

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    ““Truly, it is written that “Every man and every woman is a star,” not a sun or even a moon. Much of what Crowley wrote is intelligble from a stellar or astral perspective as opposed to a purely “solar- phallic” one. Some of Grant’s criticisms of Crowley’s approach to magic are legitimate; that does not mean that Crowley’s Thelema has been somehow devalued in the process. It can only benefit from constructive ideas and the expansion of its theory and practice into new, uncharted territories.” (Source: Dark Lord: H.P. Lovecraft, Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition in Magic, by Peter Levenda, page 288.)

    That Peter Levenda emphasises astrology in the “stellar or astral perspective” that he associates with Kenneth Grant (who had little interest in astrology) in his book “Dark Lord: etc.”, can also be understood as a further development of this “stellar or astral perspective”.

    #102153

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter: “… what exactly is the specific nature of the forces now erupting in our planet’s ambience and what has been (scientifically) investigated therein …”?

    “KG. Man has evoked certain energies, and therefore certain entities, the nature of which he is ignorant, and for confrontation with which he is almost totally unprepared.

    Q. He has called them into being by his own folly.

    KG. Ignorance is the prime culprit, but there are others. There is a deliberate and perverse determination on the part of man today to amass material possessions. Complete materialisation is desired and therefore a state of total materialism dominates and conditions his activities. With exclusively materialistic motivations man can but destroy himself for they admit of nothing beyond himself (source: http://kennethgrant.blogspot.no/p/original-texts-in-english.html – KENNETH GRANT OBITUARY).”

    #102156

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Thank you for responding, well.  At least you have done so, which is more than anybody else has so far thought motivated to do.  Unfortunately, then, I’m unable to react with more enthusiasm to your answer, but I just don’t find it a satisfactory one.  For one thing – and this is a fairly common “complaint” (which may be too strong a word) about your replies – you answer (often exclusively) with quotes which may not be particularly relevant, but more importantly with no additional personal comment from your own perspective which might put it more into context.  However, enough on your style – now to address the content..

    Your explanation is apparently that you attribute the eruption of the so-called nightside forces to the worldwide prevalence of ignorance and materialism.  However in the interview cited, Grant is not directly discussing these things as being ‘nightside’, and nor are they particularly nightside phenomena — they are in fact abundant and clearly visible in the light of our ‘everyday’ world.  Nor are they particularly recent ‘eruptions’ or manifestations: they have always been with us, though possibly not to such an abundant extent.

    As I mentioned, the description of these forces as being nightside implies their nature is dark, or that they belong to the realm of shadows where a shadow is cast by something which comes between the light and life (or Light and Life if you prefer) created by a star (of which our sun is our nearest example).  And in Typhonian circles this isn’t regarded as anything that might be detrimental to humanity’s evolution, but something to be positively worked with.  However, the sense in which it is used in the quotation given appears to be of something which IS to be deplored as detrimental, and also the fact that it is an unprecedented occurrence which has not occurred previously, or at least so far as is known.

    Apart from this, can there also the possibility that by the eruption of “certain entities” there was meant to be some sort of a quasi-Cthulhu type reference? It is a shame that Frater Aossic is no longer among us to ‘throw some light’ on the reason behind the statement quoted which was made in the first edition of Starfire, and what was meant by it. 

    If there’s any more mileage in discussing this it might be expedient to move the contents to a new thread (as it is not exactly on track with the original topic here), but if not it could just stand as a temporary, short-lived diversion of passing curiosity.

    N Joy

    #102163

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter: “… If there’s any more mileage in discussing this it might be expedient to move the contents to a new thread (as it is not exactly on track with the original topic here) …”

    I agree, because the “stars, or kalas” within the star-lore of Kenneth Grant, apparently are not “the visible gems of the night sky”:

    “It might be helpful for those not well-versed in the star-lore of Kenneth Grant if I were to mention that what he terms as “stars, or kalas” are not the visible gems of the night sky—though they have their correspondence with them. More often than not he is referring to the nodes and constellations of a matrix—perceptible to the seer as a shining gossamer web—that extrudes from the body of the consecrated Shakti. The Sri Yantra of the Eastern Tantras is a geometric symbol of this matrix.” (Source: Aquarius and the Nightside Thoth Tarot Atu The Star XVII – http://oliverstjohn-thelema.blogspot.no/2013/01/aquarius-and-nightside.html)

    Jamie J Barter: “… in Typhonian circles this [= the so-called nightside forces] isn’t regarded as anything that might be detrimental to humanity’s evolution, but something to be positively worked with. However, the sense in which it is used in the quotation given appears to be of something which IS to be deplored as detrimental, and also the fact that it is an unprecedented occurrence which has not occurred previously, or at least so far as is known.”

    According to the following review by David Hall, of Kenneth Grant’s book Nightside of Eden, the so-called nightside forces, can be be detrimental, or something to be positively worked with, depending on how they are accessed:

    Nightside of Eden Review by David Hall – http://www.starfirepublishing.co.uk/Nightside_Review.htm)

    #102170

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    It is a shame that Frater Aossic is no longer among us to ‘throw some light’ on the reason behind the statement:

    “The Ordo Templi Orientis” (O.T.O.) is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria […] One of the Order’s immediate concerns (1986) is the formulation of another specialised cell to implement methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience. A potent means of encounter and investigation is a form of magical aesthesis, and a growing body of artist-initiates is now, in consequence, operative within the Order.”

    which was made in the first edition of Starfire, and what was meant by it. 

    I have just noticed however that the statement and article quoted was not written by ‘Frater Aossic’ at all, but our very own Michael Staley!  Though nonetheless it still seems that there hasn’t been ‘any more light’ thrown on this aspect of these massive erupting nightside forces… 

    If they constitute some sort of threat to the wellbeing of the human race as seems to be implied then we ought to be told as much as possible in order to prepare ourselves, surely? But if not, what other reason would there have been for the particularly dramatic use of language employed?

    Yours rather concernedly
    N Joy

    #102173

    Tiger
    Participant

    “I have just noticed however that the statement and article quoted was not written by ‘Frater Aossic’ at all, but our very own Michael Staley! “

    Wow thanks for bringing me back to my senses Jamie .
    For a moment I was in another world viewing the weaving in the tapestry.

    Ok i guess i better catch the tube go to work and pay the taxes .

    #102174

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter, you are quoting from a text copyrighted by Michael Staley (titled Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis A Brief History) in your preceding post. It is within this text stated that “a growing body of artist-initiates” inside this Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis, in 1986 was implementing “methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.”

    Your quote, Jamie J Barter, is from a paragraph within the above just mentioned text, but this quote is missing the following words that appear as the last sentence of the paragraph just mentioned at the beginning of this sentence that you are now reading:

    “This inner group is co-ordinated by Jeffrey D. Evans, at present the sole authorised representative of the O.T.O. in America. [meanwhile: expelled]”

    The word expelled is highlighted in red in this sentence, and mouse clicking on it leads to another page containing further information.

    #102175

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Worlds within worlds. There sure were a lot of expulsions in the (T.)O.T.O. in those days. However, my concerns still stand.  No one else wants to address them; that’s not unusual.  (And just where might I ask is Lemuria — is it perhaps close on Atlantis?  “Turn left at Greenland and then straight on ’til morning…”)

    N Joy

    #102176

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter: “There sure were a lot of expulsions in the (T.)O.T.O. in those days. However, my concerns still stand.”

    1986 in the (T.)O.T.O, Jeffrey D. Evans co-ordinated the inner group implementing “methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.” The expulsion of him, can thus have led to a decrease in the (T.)O.T.O.’s dealings with the said massive “nightside” forces, due to the loss of the member co-ordinating this effort. I don’t know if someone else replaced Evans as co-ordinator, after the latter was expelled.

    #102181

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    1986 in the (T.)O.T.O, Jeffrey D. Evans co-ordinated the inner group implementing “methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.”
    One wonders how many people his inner group or ‘cell’ consisted of; surely it would be more than just him, his wife and their poodle, as it were? I know the numbers of the (T.)O.T.O. are not exactly extensive, but that would be ridiculous in terms of its being (at) the frontline of the planet’s defences against “dealing with” these massive erupting forces.  Which we still don’t know yet are meant to be ultimately hostile to our welfare or not – although if not, then one also wonders why the fuss.

    The expulsion of him, can thus have led to a decrease in the (T.)O.T.O.’s dealings with the said massive “nightside” forces, due to the loss of the member co-ordinating this effort
    After 31 years some headway should  have been made — it is the same length of time from this as from the original commencement of Nu Isis Lodge, after all.  Would it be unrealistic to speculate whether one way of their ‘dealing’ with the forces would be to try to implement some form of ‘Noise police’ in view of the menace which Kenneth Grant reckoned modern music is meant to present to human development in the modern world (with the exception of Count Basie of course) — perhaps rock and roll should be discontinued and shunned for our own good?

    I don’t know if someone else replaced Evans as co-ordinator, after the latter was expelled
    This was obviously a carrying on of the grand tradition wherein Grant was himself expelled from the O.T.O. by Germer (And arguably Crowley by Reuss too, if we are going to go right back to the source).

    With apologies for the diversion from the railroad
    N Joy

    #102183

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @wellreadwellbred

    What does “when the stars are right” mean, exactly?

    This is an idiom in the English language that refers to the right or fortuitous time for doing something. There’s not generally an astrological significance to it, though it can be used in that context as well.

    In a text copyrighted by Michael Staley, titled Typhonian Ordo Templi Orientis A Brief History, it is stated that “The Ordo Templi Orientis” (O.T.O.) is the name applied to an arcane tradition once known as the Stellar Wisdom, which had its roots in Lemuria . . .”

    The Statement appeared in the first issue of Starfire, published in May 1986. It is there credited as “Issued under the Seal of the Sovereign Sanctuary, O.T.O., 8th May 1986 e.v.” The text was in fact drawn up by Kenneth Grant, who submitted it for publication in the issue. If this Statement has been attributed to me on Peter Koenig’s website, the attribution is incorrect. At some past time Peter would have provided me with a draft html page prior to website publication and this is something I clearly overlooked.

    In what sense did Kenneth Grant understand the word ‘stellar’ when he wrote about the ‘stellar gnosis’ or ‘the Stellar Wisdom’?

    Kenneth Grant did not always define his terms; and where he did, those terms can shift throughout his body of work. Sometimes he used terms that link up apparently disparate phenomena; an example of this is referenced by Oliver St.John in the passage which you highlighted in an earlier post:

    “It might be helpful for those not well-versed in the star-lore of Kenneth Grant if I were to mention that what he terms as ‘stars, or kalas’ are not the visible gems of the night sky—though they have their correspondence with them. More often than not he is referring to the nodes and constellations of a matrix—perceptible to the seer as a shining gossamer web—that extrudes from the body of the consecrated Shakti.”

    Increasingly interested in Tantra from the mid 1940s onwards, Grant was a devotee of the Great or Primal Goddess, which, through steeping himself in Gerald Massey’s work in the late 1940s, he identified with Ta-Urt or Typhon. Grant would have seen everything as constituting the body of the Goddess; this is the pantheist notion (some would say insight) which permeates the first chapter of The Book of the Law. It is also the realisation which underpins the succinct Hindu analogy likening existence to a play wherein all the roles are played by Brahma, who is however so immersed in each role that he has lost sight of his universality.

    This leads on to perhaps the most fundamental underpinning to Grant’s work, which is Advaita Vedanta. Grant was aware of Advaita amongst other Eastern bodies of praxis, but in mid 1952 had a major epiphany into the fundamental importance of it. Advaita permeates the Typhonian Trilogies, and Grant’s work cannot be properly understood without it.

    Since Grant did not always define his terms, it is left to the reader to infer them. Over the years I have come to the opinion that the Stellar Gnosis glyphs the further, outer reaches of awareness – outer, that is, in relation to what might be thought of as human awareness. In terms of Advaita there is no inner and no outer; however, we still use these terms notionally.

    There are uses of ‘stellar’. For many years I have been undertaking Lam workings with several colleagues, passing through many different ritual structures. At one time we would identify the seven principal chakras with the seven principal stars of the constellation Draco. Nor is this a unique approach.

    … methods of dealing with the massive “nightside” forces now erupting in the Earth’s astral ambience.

    By the term ‘nightside forces’ I think Grant was referencing atavistic forces which he saw as seeping into conscious awareness from the depths. By ‘depths’ is meant not just the personal subconsciousness, but the vast depths of universal or collective unconsciousness beyond that.

    #102251

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    The Statement appeared in the first issue of Starfire, published in May 1986. It is there credited as “Issued under the Seal of the Sovereign Sanctuary, O.T.O., 8th May 1986 e.v.” The text was in fact drawn up by Kenneth Grant, who submitted it for publication in the issue
    Ah, so. As stated, I thought that I recognised the distinctive light ‘fantastical’ touch of ‘Frater Aossic’ there, from the very first sentence with its attribution to Lemuria.

    By the term ‘nightside forces’ I think Grant was referencing atavistic forces which he saw as seeping into conscious awareness from the depths. By ‘depths’ is meant not just the personal subconsciousness, but the vast depths of universal or collective unconsciousness beyond that.
    So it looks as though, in this context anyway (and despite sentiments in Beyond the Mauve Zone to the contrary) rock & roll is safe and musicians (and especially those of a Typhonian hue) can rest easy against their amps – at least for the moment.  Instead though, one can emulate Sherlock Holmes and deduce that there still seems to be a suggestion of some Cthulhu-sort of influence at work, another one of the author’s hobbyhorses.

    Advaita permeates the Typhonian Trilogies, and Grant’s work cannot be properly understood without it.
    I may be oversimplifying, but understand this term to mean in a nutshell the primal state of Unity behind everything, which is beyond that of dualism.  But is there anywhere within the Trilogies where it is succinctly explained how this Oneness then reduces to the ultimate Zero or none as in Liber AL I: 45,48?  There probably is, but I can’t place one (no pun intended) at the moment (the essence being in the phrase “succinctly explained”.)

    At some past time Peter would have provided me with a draft html page prior to website publication and this is something I clearly overlooked.
    With this there seems to be a refreshing sense of tolerance abroad within the (T.)O.T.O. as opposed to the (C.)O.T.O., where I have been reliably informed fraternisation (or even communication via the web) with Mr Koenig is not only frowned upon but tantamount to being an invitation for expulsion. Which is all the rage and de rigueur in the Order, it seems.

    With thanks for some clarification
    N Joy

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