Home Forums Thelema Thelema ‘Kill me’ or ‘Fill me’ – The Debate

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    It is too bad that the people holding the last remaining copyrights to AC’s work have chosen to disregard what AC worked so hard on through several printings and arrogantly change “fill” to “kill.”

    @shiva said

    “In Solar Lodge, we accepted that the Jesuits might be dangerous.”

    Once a person dies their legacy is in the hands of history. Sites like Lashtal have done a good job overall of setting the record straight in many instances of lies, slander and misinformation about AC.

    But AC is still very misunderstood by most people who have not bothered to study his life or work. And, I surmise, AC is also misunderstood by many that have studied his life work. This includes artists, writers and historians.

    But I guess if AC wasn’t such an enigma, this site and these many attempts at understanding, explaining, or hero worship (succeed or fail as they do) would not exist.

    @shiva said:

    “It’s a good thing that Liberation (Attainment, Accomplishment, Enlightenment, etc) doesn’t depend on AL, or HB, or OTO.”

    Do what thou wilt!



    This is sort of OT as this thread has touched on nut-jobs attracted to Thelema. There I was getting ready to post on Ignant’s new thread about Thelemic parenthood. but it has been rightfully locked due to the incoherent meltdown ravings of a Mad Hatter known as “Pegasus”. . Would just like to point out that I have never been a member of the OTO, Australian or otherwise as stated by the nut-job in question. Also I doubt very much that Pegasus is Alrah. Anyway how ’bout those daffodils?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  dom.


    @shiva said:

    “Porridge was (still is?) a monitor agent who moved (moves?) in almost immediately to assess anything in Wikipedia mentioning “OTO” and probably other keywords he had (has?) in order to immediately change the entry if it doesn’t already have the proper “spin” embedded in the text. “Immediately” refers to next-day modifications, so there was (is?) a keyword search or notification borg unit in place.”

    Interesting assertion. The Borg and auto-bots are a given. But have you experienced Porridge in this capacity?

    @astralsun said:

    “they pushed extreme behavior, excessive use of drugs etc. Porridge was at the heart of this.”

    @dom responded:

    “Hehehe Porridge has always been a vociferous anti-heroin activist. Weed, acid, MDMA etc he is all for. He also advised never to do 2 different drugs at once. I would actually say that he is probably a good example of someone who espouses a sensible scientific approach to drug-taking so you’re talking out of your crazy ass.”

    you sir @dom are the resident troll who’s sole purpose seems to be to take every side of every argument in an attempt to trip people up, stir useless debate and confuse.

    Liber AL III, 42:

    “Refuse none, but thou shalt know & destroy the traitors….
    Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter.”

    @dom you’re talking out of your crazy ass.

    Repeated for emphasis.

    Before you @dom start proselytizing about LGBQT ideals you may want to do a study in Third Gender pronouns:


    @ignant666 said:

    “Incidentally, astralsun, they don’t “chop [a sex-changer’s] wiener off”, they remove some interior flesh, and more or less fold the exterior inside itself, forming vaginal walls from what was the outside of the penis, with the head becoming a sort of sensitive cervix.”

    Thank you for this most informative clarification. It’s a shame that one would go through this very real physical alteration and still be called he by his friends and followers thirty years later.

    @shiva said:

    “Yes, of course. Have you ever read his/her/its bio?”

    @shiva is confused also. Please, can one of you trolls explains the birds and the bees of LGBQT to Frater Shiva? I am not an expert.

    As long as the BoTL is being edited may I propose another edit?

    Every man and every woman and every thing is a star!

    There I fixed it. Perfect for the 21st century..

    Carry on fools!



    eLite: It is too bad that the people holding the last remaining copyrights …

    They are playing an obvious game of Hardball Standoff … and It’s My Party & I’ll Do What I Want!
    They should be regarded as Buddha viewed Mara.

    PS – Mara is known for his part in Buddha’s enlightenment, in which a great battle with Mara, whose name means “destruction,” was fought, and who represents the passions that snare and delude us. see also: “Choronzon,” and apply this data toward mad-hatters and trolls. “The Closing of Accounts is mine,” sayeth the Moderator. Says so in the scriptures.




    you sir @dom are the resident troll who’s sole purpose seems to be to take every side of every argument in an attempt to trip people up, stir useless debate and confuse

    That’s funny. Well done. You are joking , right?

    I’ll assume you’re joking and yes, I stand corrected, Orridge is now ‘she’ but Orridg refers to hirself in the first person plural anyway so….



    I think the transgender phenomenon itself, and pronoun use around gender fluidity, are difficult for some to come to terms with. As many here are Thelemites, and all are students of the work of a man whose first love was a male-to-female transgendered person (Pollitt/de Rougy), i think we ought to be respectful of all stars’ chosen form.

    The generally accepted pronoun standard to avoid what Judith Butler called “gender trouble” is they/them/their instead of he-she/him-her/his-hers respectively. Singular “they” very much grated on my ear at first, but my sensibilities should hardly be the governing ones here. Also, since Genesis uses “We” in referring to, um, i guess, themselves, they/them seems appropriate.

    I don’t think david meant any harm by “misgendering” Genesis P. This is a term i learned from my high-school student son when he reported to me in shocked tones that a teacher had misgendered a trans classmate by calling him by his birth gender (female) name and pronouns, outraging the whole class. Norms change.

    Now that we have clarified that the references to a “Porridge” constantly editing OTO references on Wikipedia refer to Genesis P., is this actually true? One would think they were too busy for this.

    To comment on david’s comment on the recent eruption and deletion in my now-locked parenting thread, i too doubt that peg was Alrah (although i did call her an “Antipodean Alrah” once)- Alrah was definitely British and living in the UK, peg is in Oz (in many senses). Also they each had their own particular, and different, forms of loopiness. Perhaps Paul knows something we don’t. In any case, i wish she had learned to rein herself in a bit as she sometimes said interesting things amid the babble.



    The Pegasus account has been locked, not deleted, so Unlocking in due course is entirely possible.



    Also, i think em is being unfair calling david a troll. While there have been times in the past when this term might have been apter, i don’t think it has ever been true. It is fair to say he tends to take every available side of any argument, but i think this is evolution, and being too quick on the draw posting, not the absence of a center.

    A troll is a person who is deliberately playing the provocateur, hoping to incite by pushing folks’ buttons. david isn’t that: he was sometimes a crank, as he got swept away by various new enthusiasms (“skeptical Thelema”, Space Migration/Kohoutek-era Leary, RAW, “radical honesty” or “critical candor” or whatever it was, pyramidology, etc), but has always been sincere about each. He has recently been much more disciplined, as i noted above.

    Of course, it is possible to be both sincere and a troll- S.’. H.’. Fra. Los 8=3 (probably 9=2 by now) being our local prime example. His ability to persist with his nonsense in the face of so much skepticism about his heavily-edited version of AC’s work testifies to both his inflamed ego, and his not being smart enough to understand when he is losing an argument. Or else my old theory that he was a text-bot may be right, though since going to reddit he has more varied interests. Incidentally, he claimed he has a Ph.D. a couple months ago, one from an actual terrestrial and presumably accredited university. This is possibly the most ludicrous thing he has ever said; there are some shitty Ph.D. programs in this world, but none shitty enough to let someone like Los get a doctorate.


    William Thirteen

    For those interested – back in the good old days there was some discussion on AC’s reference bible here

    The Good Book



    Ig: … constantly editing OTO references on Wikipedia refer to Genesis P., is this actually true? One would think they were too busy for this.

    I was referring to a certain entry on Wikipedia, which I created. Within a day, the theme had been modified. I went on reverting and revising several times over several months. Each time, my entries were changed again, the last time was a throrough re-write by Genesis, using their well-known name. I’m not saying Genesis was the only one. It seems to be a group function. Regardless of who, or how many, references to OTO will be scrutinizerd and the “spin” will be adjusted, if required, within a day or two. Acolytes seeking favor from on-high will be quick to volunteer (or accept assignment), set up scan/search programs, and either report, or modify, heretical statements.

    Eventually, after a year or more of chess-playing with the structure of sentences and precise wordplay, we (myself and the multiple players on the other side) arrived at an equilibrium and the article/reference stabilized.

    You can prove this yourself. Simply log in to Wikipedia and edit OTO, Bill Breeze, A.’.A.’., any of those hot-button pages, telling the truth as you know it. See how long it takes to get changed back to the (c)OTO-approved version.

    We used to worry about Scientology because they were using our bookstore as an aggressively-mounted recruiting station (waylaying customers and pushing Hubbard literature). Today, there’s a different group pushing their particulars that warp history.



    Ok, i have risen to the challenge, and made a couple modest, and indisputably historically accurate, edits to the Solar Lodge wikipedia page.

    The musician (and possible Caliph-bot?) who is in charge of maintaining Caliphate standards of hygienic thought on that page is not Genesis P, but Rodney Orpheus, an OTO member and author.

    I am surprised he has time for so much wiki-editing with his new job at Korg, and that his bosses at Korg are willing to allow him to alienate potential consumers of their synthesizers (like me!) by sending history to the memory hole (should that happen, which of course it may not).

    This is certainly not confined to the OTO- zealous fans of the Allman Brothers deleted every effort i made in a bored moment a couple years back to insert the true fact that Gregg escaped prison by ratting out his tour manager for selling him drugs into his wiki bio.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  ignant666.


    Ignant, you did a wonderful job restoring about 70% of the items that were removed or revised. But do note that I was wrong – it was not Porridge who took the challenge, it was Rodney Orpheus. I herewith post the official Wikipedia record of that duel. Also note that I put up the original page.


    curprev 15:29, 5 September 2011‎ Pxheliopolis talk contribs‎ 3,256 bytes +51‎ undo

    curprev 13:58, 16 August 2011‎ Cydebot talk contribs‎ m 3,205 bytes -14‎ Robot – Moving category Fraternal and magical organizations to Category:Magical organizations per CFD at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 August 9. undo

    curprev 14:08, 22 April 2011‎ Rodneyorpheus talk contribs‎ 3,219 bytes -14‎ →‎References: incorrect – Solar Lodge was never part of OTO undo

    curprev 12:50, 13 April 2011‎ talk‎ 3,233 bytes +143‎ →‎References: added new source undo

    curprev 18:15, 1 January 2011‎ Rodneyorpheus talk contribs‎ 3,090 bytes -245‎ removed mention of The Family – chapter was found inaccurate and description here doesn’t mention what it has to do with Solar Lodge anyway. undo
    curprev 16:14, 30 December 2009‎ Pxheliopolis talk contribs‎ m 3,335 bytes +38‎ spelling & grammar corrections undo


    curprev 17:18, 15 August 2009‎ Rodneyorpheus talk contribs‎ m 3,348 bytes -23‎ undo

    curprev 17:17, 15 August 2009‎ Rodneyorpheus talk contribs‎ m 3,371 bytes -1‎ undo

    curprev 17:16, 15 August 2009‎ Rodneyorpheus talk contribs‎ m 3,372 bytes -4‎ undo

    curprev 17:15, 15 August 2009‎ Rodneyorpheus talk contribs‎ 3,376 bytes -55‎ small clean-up, removed reason for non-viability, not NPOV undo

    curprev 15:10, 15 August 2009‎ Pxheliopolis talk contribs‎ 3,431 bytes -47‎ reason for decline undo

    curprev 18:45, 13 July 2009‎ Pxheliopolis talk contribs‎ 3,478 bytes +426‎ Added reference notes undo

    —— end of partial extract ———–

    Now we’ll see how long it takes … ?



    There is an entry for Solar Lodge on Lashtal’s Encyclopedia Thelemica which is both informative and fair:


    I have read the abridged version of Frater Shiva’s book about Solar Lodge and it is clear and concise, but haven’t yet read the longer complete version of the book as it is only available in physical form and requires planes trains and automobiles to deliver.



    “… Unfortunately Mr Beta’s attempt to explain his change to Liber AL, is not convincing.
    He fails to explain anything beyond “I think” and “Crowley forgot”
    I think this article summarizes it very well:

    https://fnordzone.blogspot.com/2014/08/from-fill-to-kill-oho-ignores-command.html (Source: reply #112252 in this thread titled “‘Kill me’ or ‘Fill me’ – The Debate”, published by astralsun April 10, 2019 at 11:44 am – – – https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/kill-me-or-fill-me-the-debate/page/13/#post-112252)

    The article mentioned by astralsun, is signed by one Fr. Spin Rex, self-described as “… a Thelemite and as someone who actually believes in the mystic powers of fate and chance”, and “the silent guiding hand of Aiwass”, and “the true tranmission”.

    Fr. Spin Rex does in this article write the following:

    “… anyone with even a basic understanding of Egyptian comsology and spirituality would understand that a funeral tablet would not say ‘let it kill me’ because to be killed after physical death would be a terrible thing indeed – something you would wish on your enemies, and certainly not something you would want written on your own funeral tablet to be sent with you into the afterlife forever. [..] if you look at the modern translation of the text on the stele – there is neither any mention of ‘self slain’ or anything even close. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%A8le_of_Revealing#Obverse ] Nor are there any actual hieroglyphs that say ‘Aum let it fill me’ or ‘Aum let it kill me’. So what am I getting at here? Crowley’s poetic version of the Stele text was just that – Crowley’s poetry.”

    I provide more on Egyptian comsology and spirituality, with respect to the funeral tablet interpreted and used by Aleister Crowley within his construction of his The Book of the Law: (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/page/2/. A point repeatedly stated by me in this thread, is that the ultimate purpose of the Stele (funeral tablet) of one Ankh-af-na-khonsu – interpreted and used by Aleister Crowley within his construction of his The Book of the Law – is safeguarding the said Ankh-af-na-khonsu’s individuality and civil status into perpetuity. An ultimate purpose which is irrespective of how the said Stele is interpreted and used by AC and/or Aiwass in the so-called The Book of the Law associated with them.)


    Michael Staley


    so-called The Book of the Law associated with them

    Why is it “so-called The Book of the Law” rather than simply “The Book of the Law“?

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