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dom
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04/08/2018 10:55 pm  

A simple question. Male dominated forum. Why? How?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSrCRkhSjEI

Video title;

Germaine Greer’s Advice for Young Women: “Be More Like the Hawk”


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Horemakhet
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05/08/2018 2:44 am  

The forums here change alot over time. In terms of gender perhaps it has been mostly males for the last few years, but the amount of posts available filtered through the guidelines has also dropped so that the traffic is manageable for the webmaster/moderator. All respect to him! Not an easy job. When Ianrons was working for the site the forums were much busier.I wouldn't worry too much about it, dom.


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dom
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05/08/2018 9:58 am  

No, "worry" is the wrong term. I'm just curious about it. I assume if the forum was called "Goddesses of Thelema" or "Ladies of Babalon" then it would repel the males. Are the women assuming a subservient role in Thelema just like any Patriarchal cult such as Roman Carholicism or The Anglican Church?


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pegasus
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05/08/2018 10:26 am  

nun of the females around here has most of the ladies in the pantheons onboard witch balances that maleness out

ps before my changelings greer was not on my list of desired and still nah. All for women stepping up but side by side not one leading not one following

pps I love barbies but my steve austin doll I won from paddlepop comp was just awesomeness.. bionic eye yeah..

ppps no subservient no sitting in backseat and playing shutup


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dom
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05/08/2018 11:24 am  

In terms of Thelema a fool is a fool to be despised and a dog is dead no matter what gender they are.

2:45 AL 3:57 AL


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pegasus
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05/08/2018 12:14 pm  

*sigh


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dom
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05/08/2018 1:26 pm  

Why are you sighing?


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Michael Staley
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05/08/2018 1:58 pm  

@dom

A simple question. Male dominated forum. Why? How?

I've been a member of LAShTAL since 2004, and there's always been an apparent gender imbalance. I say "apparent" because it's not always easy to tell gender from screen-names, nor from the posts. Similar considerations apply to other forums such as the Facebook pages for 'Thelema', 'Kenneth Grant and the Typhonian Tradition', and 'The Art and Writings of Austin O. Spare'; the Temple of Thelema forums; and the 'Typhonian Mysteries' forums, to name but a few.

I don't know "Why?" or "How?".


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dom
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05/08/2018 2:43 pm  

Thanks for the input Michael.


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ignant666
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05/08/2018 3:37 pm  

A fairly obvious explanation is that comparatively few women are interested in the life and work of AC.

His massive sexism, verging at times on misogyny, might account for this. While i think the common claim that AC was a racist is largely incorrect, his antiquated attitudes towards women are indisputable.

Another case of "the demon Crowley" overshadowing the parts of his work that are valuable.


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Michael Staley
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05/08/2018 4:39 pm  

@ignant666

A fairly obvious explanation is that comparatively few women are interested in the life and work of AC. His massive sexism, verging at times on misogyny, might account for this ... his antiquated attitudes towards women are indisputable.

Whilst I largely agree with this, and doubtless it plays a part, an imbalance can also be seen on other forums dealing with, for instance, the work of Spare, or of Kenneth Grant.


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ignant666
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05/08/2018 5:39 pm  

The reason that is so, i think, is that women interested in "occult"/"spiritual" topics are likely to find a friendlier home in the various Wicca/post-Wicca groups and writings.

To further expand on why Thelema in particular (and as a consequence this forum) runs so heavily male, I think the current owners of the trademark "OTO" bear considerable responsibility for the dearth of women in Thelema.

The claims to "legitimacy", such as they are, of the (c)OTO, and its "duplex"/affiliated Motta-based "A.'. A.'." (lead by "World Teacher"/"Messiah" Gunther), depend heavily on obscuring and obliterating the huge role in US, and Californian, Thelema of women such as Jane Wolfe and Phyllis Seckler.

The current wave of scandal within that organization around sexual abuse of female members is one consequence. Their apparent embrace of "Alt-Right"/"Trumpismo" politics may not help, in these pussy-hatted days.


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Shiva
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05/08/2018 6:03 pm  

"The names of women members are never revealed."


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ignant666
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05/08/2018 6:26 pm  

I think the reason for that rule in the "Blue Equinox" fantasy description of the OTO is obvious: the "women members" of the OTO were among the property held in common by the male members (so to speak) of the order.

Since they were the common receptacles of the sacred semen of the "brothers", their names were held in confidence to protect them from social obloquy.

It's the little details like that in the history of Thelema that hold back women from participation.


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Jamie J Barter
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05/08/2018 7:14 pm  

Maybe the fact that Thelema was seen by AC sometimes (and was also in the VIIth and VIIIth initiation papers for the O.T.O., which definitely have an Old Aeon touch) as being "solar-phallic" might have something to do with the central point, even though the Crowned & Conquering Child (Hoor) is intended to draw upon the masculine and feminine currents (Isa, Asar) equally.
(Ignoring for the moment that some consider the Child "himself" to be unbalanced, requiring the further input of the feminine (e.g. The Book of Babalon - Parsons and Pennae Praenumbra - Nema). Kenneth Grant has also stressed the importance of what he saw as the neglected lunar-yonic side).

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Tiger
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05/08/2018 9:32 pm  

Well i figure the the old aeon is not dead yet and The New Aeon is still infant .

People pander in order to be approved of, and admired.
Prostitute themselves for money and power .
Market ideology like god created Eve for adam, and not the other way around etc sorta thing .
and Hearts and minds are still enslaved .


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dom
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05/08/2018 11:48 pm  

Some good points here on the possible how and why, thanks.


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wellreadwellbred
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06/08/2018 10:08 pm  

(OP) dom: "A simple question. Male dominated forum. Why? How?"

Why: Being scared, for example by words in the Holy Books of Thelema like:

“12. Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.” “24. The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, […].” “25. This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. …”. (Source: The Book of the Law (Chapter III, verse 12, 24, and 25.)
or, "21. Then again the master shall speak as he will soft words, and with music and what else he will bring forward the Victim. 22. Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar, and the blood shall cover the altar with perfume as of roses." (Source: Liber 66, verse 21 and 22.)

How: By avoiding what scares them.


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ignant666
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06/08/2018 10:36 pm  

Thank you, Captain Obvious; see several posts above saying the same re AC's sexism as potentially off-putting to many women, albeit more cogently.

Re quote #1: Do you (wrwb) actually imagine women generally view menstrual blood as "what scares them"?

Re quotes #1 & #2: Or is it that you (wrwb) actually imagine that heterosexual women generally view male ejaculation (the activity described in the verses you quote, as you perfectly well know) as "what scares them"?


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wellreadwellbred
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06/08/2018 11:17 pm  

Many uninformed female readers reading certain words ("Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.", "Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar") in those quoted verses are likely to find them scary and/or creepy. And many of them are likely to dislike the tone of humor or irony behind those words, if the meaning of those words are explained to them.


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dom
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06/08/2018 11:47 pm  

Many uninformed female readers reading certain words (“Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.”, “Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar”) in those quoted verses are likely to find them scary and/or creepy. And many of them are likely to dislike the tone of humor or irony behind those words, if the meaning of those words are explained to them.

I think you're missing it all here. We're not talking about Sarah Palin types are we? We're talking about women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 12:12 am  

(OP) dom: “A simple question. Male dominated forum. Why? How?”

dom: "We’re talking about women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites."

Now I know more precisely who that can answer your simple question.


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 12:19 am  

Many uninformed female readers reading certain words (“Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.”, “Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar”) in those quoted verses are likely to find them scary and/or creepy. And many of them are likely to dislike the tone of humor or irony behind those words, if the meaning of those words are explained to them.

Do you, wrwb, say this because you think women are more easily scared than men, or because you think women are more stupid than men, or because you think women are less capable of understanding irony than men, or is is it that you think women in general lack a sense of humor?

Would "uninformed" male readers react differently, in your view? Why do you think that this is so, if yes?

Are "female readers" more likely to be "uninformed", in your judgement, wrwb? I assume you have to answer "yes" to offer the reactions of "uninformed female readers" to AC's work to explain the dearth of female posters here.

We all, "female readers" and "male readers" alike, started out "uninformed", after all.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 12:37 am  

This is beside dom's point with this thread. As far as I understand, dom's "A simple question. Male dominated forum. Why? How?”, pertains to "... women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites.”

Please tell me if I am mistaken, dom.


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 12:52 am  

Now that we have clarified that your last several posts somehow don't count or something, wrwb, can you clarify "who that can answer [david/dom's] simple question", as you say you "know" in post #108808 above?

Or could you perhaps even tell us the answer to his "simple question" since you know it "more precisely" now, and have now clarified that your last several posts before david's weren't actually your answer to his question?

Please note that if your answer is that few women are "basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites" that i already pointed this out at post #108755 above on the last page.


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Michael Staley
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07/08/2018 12:55 am  

@wellreadwellbred

This is beside dom’s point with this thread. As far as I understand, dom’s “A simple question. Male dominated forum. Why? How?”, pertains to “… women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites.”

Good way of avoiding the question.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 1:02 am  

My impression is that dom's question pertains to “… women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites.", or more precisely "… women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites." and also members of this site.

Correct me if I am wrong here, dom.


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 1:05 am  

While we wait for his possible correction, can you please, wrwb, explain why you think few women post here, since you have posted five (5) times in this thread now, and have now clarified that none of what you posted before is your real answer?


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Tiger
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07/08/2018 1:07 am  

women love mysteries and puzzles
man need look no further his will is found in her of course
If he gets sidetracked bringing the kill home that's fine


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Jamie J Barter
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07/08/2018 1:17 am  

I think wrwrb is trying to say that all women, Thelemites or not, are basically at heart a bunch of silly flibbertigibbet little scaredy-cats. Or sommat like that. Isn't that right, wrwb?

N Joy


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 1:24 am  

Yes, that is pretty clearly his position, Jamie; but having been called on his sexist bullshit, wrwb is backpedaling too fast to post right now.


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Jamie J Barter
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07/08/2018 1:31 am  

He* must be approaching the light barrier!

N Joy

* I say "he" here, but I suppose to prevent the possibility of being called out on hypocritical grounds one ought try to avoid sexist stereotyping at all times & therefore the implication that wrwb might perversely not be feminine at all (unlikely as it would seem!)


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 1:32 am  

Incidentally, should anyone care to posit that women just don't like endless niggling arguments about obscure texts, and so are put off by not Thelema but the tone of this forum, i would suggest that such persons arrange to visit a local university, and meet some female academics.

My students ran about 60% women last time i taught, and seemed to quite like that sort of thing, at least as much as the men.

As far as a more formal data point as to women and their abilities at, and liking for, niggling over obscure texts, 59% of US law students were women last year.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 1:50 am  

Michael Staley: "Good way of avoiding the question."

Good way of sticking to the point of this thread, as far as I understand it, after further clarification of it from the original poster.

ignant666: "... , explain why you think few women post here, ..."

I prefer to know know if it is the case that few women post here, instead of me providing more speculation. The women posting here, are relevant sources for more information about what that motivates their involvement on this site.


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 1:57 am  

But you were so full of opinions (or full of something, anyway) on the OT just moments ago, wrwb!

Accepting for purposes of argument that david's premise in the OP ("few women post on Lashtal"), which you were perfectly willing to discuss, and offer your mind-bogglingly sexist explanations for, just moments ago (like 45 minutes ago), is correct, why do you think that might be?


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Jamie J Barter
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07/08/2018 2:00 am  

Well, I'm heartened that you have not seen fit to contradict my assessment of the angle of where it is that you might be coming from here on this thread. Yes, let's just say nothing further for the moment wrwb! --- this must surely be one of those occasions when less = more, that silence speaks louder than words, that further discussion is unnecessary and one only has to read between the lines...

Nose-tappingly & cliché-spoutingly yours
N joy


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 2:32 am  

A small point for wrwb to consider: You are mistaken that "[t]he women posting here, are relevant sources for more information" about why few women-who-are-not-them post here.

The "relevant sources for more information" about why few women post here would of course be not "women who post here", but rather "women who do not post here".

We are thus left to speculate, since no posters here can answer the question of why others don't do so.

Greater attention to logic, and English usage, might render your posts less tedious (we hope and pray).


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Jamie J Barter
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07/08/2018 2:41 am  

wrwb, you are still "avoiding the question", as Michael pointed out.

Many uninformed female readers reading certain words (“Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.”, “Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar”) in those quoted verses are likely to find them scary and/or creepy. And many of them are likely to dislike the tone of humor or irony behind those words, if the meaning of those words are explained to them.

Do you, or do you not, still stand by these words written three hours ago --- and if not, why not? And if so, indeed again : why so?!

Unless you have retired for the night from the proceedings (as I intend to do shortly), in which case there's always tomorrow...
N Joy


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 8:56 am  

ignant666: "We are thus left to speculate, since no posters here can answer the question of why others don’t do so."

Access to asking the “women who do not post here”, would mean that we are not only left to speculate. That takes knowing the contact information provided by members of this site that identify as women and that do not post here. And I prefer to know more about the female members of this site who do not post here, instead of me being left to only provide more speculation.

JJB: "Do you, or do you not stand by these words [...] ?" Yes, because Aleister Crowley has a rotten reputation in general, but those words are based on speculation on a very general level, not relevant to the point of this thread, as far as I understand this point.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 10:06 am  

Jamie J Barter: "I think wrwrb is trying to say that all women, Thelemites or not, are basically at heart a bunch of silly flibbertigibbet little scaredy-cats. Or sommat like that. Isn’t that right, wrwb?"

My speculation about the likelihood of many uninformed female readers finding it scary and/or creepy to read certain words (“Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.”, “Also he shall slay a young child upon the altar”) in texts associated with Aleister Crowley who has a rotten reputation in general, might be wrong. But on a very general level, I think it is still likely that many uninformed female readers would find such utterances or the humor or irony behind them, dislikeable, disagreeable and/or repulsive. (Such speculation on a very general level is beside the point of this thread as far as I understand, but I post this to nuance my speculation.)


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 11:42 am  

wrwb: Now that you have finished backpedaling, and admitted that you do think women are stupid or lack a sense of humor, see my replies above when you said this before:

Do you, wrwb, say this because you think women are more easily scared than men, or because you think women are more stupid than men, or because you think women are less capable of understanding irony than men, or is is it that you think women in general lack a sense of humor?

Would “uninformed” male readers react differently, in your view? Why do you think that this is so, if yes?

Are “female readers” more likely to be “uninformed”, in your judgement, wrwb? I assume you have to answer “yes” to offer the reactions of “uninformed female readers” to AC’s work to explain the dearth of female posters here.

We all, “female readers” and “male readers” alike, started out “uninformed”, after all.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 12:16 pm  

Such speculation on my part on a very general level is beside the point of this thread as far as I understand, which I understand as being limited to the question[-s] about if it is the case that many women members of this site do not post here, and if this is the case, why they do not post here.

I prefer to know more about the female members of this site who do not post here and why they don't post here.


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Jamie J Barter
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07/08/2018 2:00 pm  

However ignant666 has already answered this earlier with:

We are thus left to speculate, since no posters here can answer the question of why others don’t do so. Greater attention to logic, and English usage, might render your posts less tedious (we hope and pray).

And since you have repeatedly stated your unwillingness to "speculate" further, wrwb, we seem to be getting to the point where the arguments (such as they are) are going around in ever decreasing circles.

However you have by implication already acknowledged women in general would be "scaredy cats" if they find Crowley scary and/or creepy, and vacuous and flibbertigibbets if incapable of considering these matters deeper.

So Q.E.D. to you!
N joy


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 3:58 pm  

Could it be, wrwb, that women might avoid posting to this forum because sexists/misogynists like yourself, who think women are humorless, easily spooked, "uninformed", and dumb, post here?

This would be in addition to whatever deterrence there might be to women taking an interest in AC/Thelema because of his own sexism/misogyny issues, a part of what you call his "rotten reputation" that is richly deserved, unlike the tired canards about blood sacrifice that you say women will find "scary and/or creepy".


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dom
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07/08/2018 6:44 pm  

My impression is that dom’s question pertains to “… women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites.”, or more precisely “… women who are basically Thelemites or would-be Thelemites.” and also members of this site.
Correct me if I am wrong here, dom.

I assume that the vast majority of any people of either gender who are avid posters of this forum are either Thelemites or consider themselves to be Thelemites or are occultists. Any who don't come into those categories must be a minority imo.


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wellreadwellbred
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07/08/2018 9:27 pm  

Jamie J Barter: "However you have by implication already acknowledged women in general would be “scaredy cats” if they find Crowley scary and/or creepy, and vacuous and flibbertigibbets if incapable of considering these matters deeper."

Would I by your logic Jamie J Barter, by implication already have acknowledged that all human beings in general would be “scaredy cats”, by merely asking if, or by merely assuming that , many among all uninformed readers in general might find Crowley scary and/or creepy, and [your words applied to me] [are] vacuous and flibbertigibbets if incapable of considering these matters deeper."?

It is by the way not Crowley I wondered might be found to be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive, but certain utterances i certain verses within certain of his so-called Holy Books of Thelema, (Crowley would be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive due to his rotten reputation).

ignant666: "Could it be, wrwb, that women might avoid posting to this forum because sexists/misogynists like yourself, who think women are humorless, easily spooked, “uninformed”, and dumb, post here?"

Would I by your logic ignant666, be a misanthropist [= someone who holds general hatred, dislike, distrust or contempt of the human species or human nature], by merely asking if, or by merely assuming that, certain utterances i certain verses within certain of Crowley's so-called Holy Books of Thelema, might be found to be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive by many among all uninformed readers in general?

I agree with you ignant666, in that aspects of Aleister Crowley's own personality or character might be understood by some women, as a major deterrence to them taking an interest in, or to them taking more interest in, Aleister Crowley and/or Thelema. But I am still curious about if the complex/cryptic nature of many of Aleister Crowley's writings, might also be understood by some women, as such a deterrence. And I would like to know more about if aspects of Aleister Crowley's own personality, or the complex/cryptic nature of many of his writings, are understood as deterrences to taking an interest in, or to taking more interest in, Aleister Crowley and/or Thelema, by informed female readers who are also members of this site and do not post here.

dom: "I assume that the vast majority of any people of either gender who are avid posters of this forum are either Thelemites or consider themselves to be Thelemites or are occultists. Any who don’t come into those categories must be a minority imo."

With respect to the subject matter of this thread, Male dominated forum. Why? How?, it might be easier to find out if your assumption is correct with respect to "avid posters" (by asking them for example), then to get more accurate knowledge about “women [members of this forum] who do not post here”.

I will spend no more time being left to just speculate.


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ignant666
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07/08/2018 9:49 pm  

Walk it back all you like, wrwb, you said what you said.


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dom
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07/08/2018 10:01 pm  

Would I by your logic ignant666, be a misanthropist [= someone who holds general hatred, dislike, distrust or contempt of the human species or human nature], by merely asking if, or by merely assuming that, certain utterances i certain verses within certain of Crowley’s so-called Holy Books of Thelema, might be found to be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive by many among all uninformed readers in general?

I recommend a BDSM club or the like to get a wider and broader perspective of the fairer sex but I'm beginning to think you live in Saudi?

"Sugar and spice and all things nice"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPn2Q6Eyw1M


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Jamie J Barter
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08/08/2018 12:22 am  

I will spend no more time being left to just speculate.
Yes, too much of the wrong sort of speculation can make you go blind...

Walk it back all you like, wrwb, you said what you said.
Or pedal!

I said, "Q.E.D."!
N Joy


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pegasus
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08/08/2018 9:28 am  

As a female I can say why I am here resonation.

I was married to the scariest man alive, the beast. AriesMan

He introduced me to Crowley through book of thoth, the cards and book, book of the law and book of lies, also a biography that I cannot remember its name right off, it had green cover. Still have the buddha and crystal he had when we met and I have his diaries of our time to reflect on and a time line within to follow today.

So thinking back, what really pushed me to read more was the wanting to understand Ariesman and in turn Aleister who i feel was him and vice versa. The things both he and crowley taught me yesterday are valuable tools in today's events for tomorrow.

Yes some parts were cringeworthy, especially the homosexual acts, but that brings a whole new conundrum on higher levels. Maybe what the acts do is like what i can naturally do?? so many maybes

I understood much of what he was saying. I found that I skipped the waffle, like everyone probably does with me and I would see the parts that I had to needed to see and learn. I hated the tree of life, naples arrangment and avoided it. Same with the 7 based system. Im still curious as to why he knew my 9 based system but he hid it under the layers that I think only I could find and if that is being a bit facetious, it is what it is.

Crowley spoke to me as a woman so in my belief it is not any gender bias in his work that repels women. He is all male, he respected the women around him and exalted them and womanhood. A rare treasure.

The clues were all there I followed when researching my system of change, I would find that every time I picked up his work, I would read something new in what I had read before, or if I made a move in my system I would look it up in Crowley work via the new system perspective and find he was speaking to me again.

There is not much in life that repulses me and I don't fear much at all, not after the sum of my experiences. I have gone down the wiccan path and white witch path in my search for answer but it didn't hit the nail on the head, it was still in the bubble. I guess while I like to think I am nice I can be very not nice too. Honesty is a funny thing with people in the bubble.

At the end of that thinking out in logos .... I guess the things I saw and experienced at the time cemented it. You cannot play 64 card pick up with a deck of iching cards and have every single one land face down, including on overhead fans, under the bed, down the walls, in bins. It just doesn't happen, at least one would be faceup and law of averages says half should be. You don't witness lights coming from the sky in slow motion frame by frame hitting a person and then going into their chest and you don't see that light being a a kangaroo and then for that person to say, did you see the kangaroo. You don't have stars split into three colours and go shooting off in different directions, you don't have stars following Ariesman, you don't have lights moving in the skies, and you don't have ariesman dying the very moment libraboy woke up nearly dying himself, beginning a battle against the gov to save him. you don't have the power to heal someone, you can't lose towns, lose time, you don't have the power of pure will to achieve results, and you don't and you don't. That stuff is crazy that stuff doesn't happen in the bubble. BUT IT DID Happen and more.

all things to ponder, most of all sanity. a great equalizer examining that one. After pondering and compartmentalizing the conclusion and acceptance is sh*t happens and sh*t did happen and sh*t will happen. I am the ultimate nun.

I don't know whether these things happens to other women, not any that I know of, nor men. I guess if more women... nah Ill stop that sentence now.. I doubt anyone else could of gone through all this and still held it together.

I can only hope that other women do have and will see his work and follow the steps to knowledge. Who knows what will happen if keys turn the locks to open


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