Home Forums Thelema Thelema Male dominated forum. Why? How?

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  • #108874

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter: “However you have by implication already acknowledged women in general would be “scaredy cats” if they find Crowley scary and/or creepy, and vacuous and flibbertigibbets if incapable of considering these matters deeper.”

    Would I by your logic Jamie J Barter, by implication already have acknowledged that all human beings in general would be “scaredy cats”, by merely asking if, or by merely assuming that , many among all uninformed readers in general might find Crowley scary and/or creepy, and [your words applied to me] [are] vacuous and flibbertigibbets if incapable of considering these matters deeper.”?

    It is by the way not Crowley I wondered might be found to be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive, but certain utterances i certain verses within certain of his so-called Holy Books of Thelema, (Crowley would be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive due to his rotten reputation).

    ignant666: “Could it be, wrwb, that women might avoid posting to this forum because sexists/misogynists like yourself, who think women are humorless, easily spooked, “uninformed”, and dumb, post here?”

    Would I by your logic ignant666, be a misanthropist [= someone who holds general hatred, dislike, distrust or contempt of the human species or human nature], by merely asking if, or by merely assuming that, certain utterances i certain verses within certain of Crowley’s so-called Holy Books of Thelema, might be found to be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive by many among all uninformed readers in general?

    I agree with you ignant666, in that aspects of Aleister Crowley’s own personality or character might be understood by some women, as a major deterrence to them taking an interest in, or to them taking more interest in, Aleister Crowley and/or Thelema. But I am still curious about if the complex/cryptic nature of many of Aleister Crowley’s writings, might also be understood by some women, as such a deterrence. And I would like to know more about if aspects of Aleister Crowley’s own personality, or the complex/cryptic nature of many of his writings, are understood as deterrences to taking an interest in, or to taking more interest in, Aleister Crowley and/or Thelema, by informed female readers who are also members of this site and do not post here.

    dom: “I assume that the vast majority of any people of either gender who are avid posters of this forum are either Thelemites or consider themselves to be Thelemites or are occultists. Any who don’t come into those categories must be a minority imo.”

    With respect to the subject matter of this thread, Male dominated forum. Why? How?, it might be easier to find out if your assumption is correct with respect to “avid posters” (by asking them for example), then to get more accurate knowledge about “women [members of this forum] who do not post here”.

    I will spend no more time being left to just speculate.

    #108875

    ignant666
    Participant

    Walk it back all you like, wrwb, you said what you said.

    #108876

    dom
    Participant

    Would I by your logic ignant666, be a misanthropist [= someone who holds general hatred, dislike, distrust or contempt of the human species or human nature], by merely asking if, or by merely assuming that, certain utterances i certain verses within certain of Crowley’s so-called Holy Books of Thelema, might be found to be scary and/or creepy, dislikable, disagreeable or and/or repulsive by many among all uninformed readers in general?

    I recommend a BDSM club or the like to get a wider and broader perspective of the fairer sex but I’m beginning to think you live in Saudi?

    “Sugar and spice and all things nice”

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    #108881

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    I will spend no more time being left to just speculate.
    Yes, too much of the wrong sort of speculation can make you go blind…

    Walk it back all you like, wrwb, you said what you said.
    Or pedal!

    I said, “Q.E.D.”!
    N Joy

    #108897

    pegasus
    Participant

    As a female I can say why I am here resonation.

    I was married to the scariest man alive, the beast. AriesMan

    He introduced me to Crowley through book of thoth, the cards and book, book of the law and book of lies, also a biography that I cannot remember its name right off, it had green cover. Still have the buddha and crystal he had when we met and I have his diaries of our time to reflect on and a time line within to follow today.

    So thinking back, what really pushed me to read more was the wanting to understand Ariesman and in turn Aleister who i feel was him and vice versa. The things both he and crowley taught me yesterday are valuable tools in today’s events for tomorrow.

    Yes some parts were cringeworthy, especially the homosexual acts, but that brings a whole new conundrum on higher levels. Maybe what the acts do is like what i can naturally do?? so many maybes

    I understood much of what he was saying. I found that I skipped the waffle, like everyone probably does with me and I would see the parts that I had to needed to see and learn. I hated the tree of life, naples arrangment and avoided it. Same with the 7 based system. Im still curious as to why he knew my 9 based system but he hid it under the layers that I think only I could find and if that is being a bit facetious, it is what it is.

    Crowley spoke to me as a woman so in my belief it is not any gender bias in his work that repels women. He is all male, he respected the women around him and exalted them and womanhood. A rare treasure.

    The clues were all there I followed when researching my system of change, I would find that every time I picked up his work, I would read something new in what I had read before, or if I made a move in my system I would look it up in Crowley work via the new system perspective and find he was speaking to me again.

    There is not much in life that repulses me and I don’t fear much at all, not after the sum of my experiences. I have gone down the wiccan path and white witch path in my search for answer but it didn’t hit the nail on the head, it was still in the bubble. I guess while I like to think I am nice I can be very not nice too. Honesty is a funny thing with people in the bubble.

    At the end of that thinking out in logos …. I guess the things I saw and experienced at the time cemented it. You cannot play 64 card pick up with a deck of iching cards and have every single one land face down, including on overhead fans, under the bed, down the walls, in bins. It just doesn’t happen, at least one would be faceup and law of averages says half should be. You don’t witness lights coming from the sky in slow motion frame by frame hitting a person and then going into their chest and you don’t see that light being a a kangaroo and then for that person to say, did you see the kangaroo. You don’t have stars split into three colours and go shooting off in different directions, you don’t have stars following Ariesman, you don’t have lights moving in the skies, and you don’t have ariesman dying the very moment libraboy woke up nearly dying himself, beginning a battle against the gov to save him. you don’t have the power to heal someone, you can’t lose towns, lose time, you don’t have the power of pure will to achieve results, and you don’t and you don’t. That stuff is crazy that stuff doesn’t happen in the bubble. BUT IT DID Happen and more.

    all things to ponder, most of all sanity. a great equalizer examining that one. After pondering and compartmentalizing the conclusion and acceptance is sh*t happens and sh*t did happen and sh*t will happen. I am the ultimate nun.

    I don’t know whether these things happens to other women, not any that I know of, nor men. I guess if more women… nah Ill stop that sentence now.. I doubt anyone else could of gone through all this and still held it together.

    I can only hope that other women do have and will see his work and follow the steps to knowledge. Who knows what will happen if keys turn the locks to open

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  pegasus. Reason: sew, a needle pulling thread.. removing so's
    #108902

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    ignant666: “Walk it back all you like, wrwb, you said what you said.”

    What I have written, I have written. “Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.” John 19:22. King James Version.

    #108903

    ignant666
    Participant

    Well, perhaps a disregard-er of the stars that are women, but wrwb is at least not a Christian here to convert us, or, if he is, he needs to get back to his Bible study and cease to pester us. To identify with this sentence of Pilate’s, one must be very very heterodox, and very very very anti-Semitic, to be a Christian at all.

    I have wondered from time to time, since so many of wrwb’s trite re-re-rehashed arguments and claims re AC’s “rotten” character, and “human sacrifices”, are cliches of the sort of Christian apologetics that seeks to engage with non-Christians for purposes of proselytizing, whether that might be the purpose of his posts here: to save our heathen souls.

    If you don’t mind me asking, wrwb, since you are no Thelemite, or fan of AC’s life or work, and by identifying yourself with Pilate in this particular way reveal you are no Christian evangelist here to save us, what are your religious/philosophical beliefs or certainties that lead you to post here?

    #108906

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Sorry -wrong thread!

    N Joy

    #108915

    lashtal
    Keymaster

    Dom, if you look near the bottom right of most pages of this site you’ll see that 12,338 (at the time of writing) have chosen to register for membership. Now, I wouldn’t for a moment suggest that a significant proportion of those who’ve ever registered still actively check in here, but, equally, I wouldn’t presume to guess the relative gender proportions of the membership or, indeed, attempt to determine gender from usernames employed by the subset that represent the most active forum posters.

    #109183

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    ignant666: “… To identify with this sentence of Pilate’s, one must be very very heterodox, and very very very anti-Semitic, to be a Christian at all. …”

    In the Christian Bible John chapter 18, verse 38, Pilate questions Jesus’ claim that he is “witness to the truth” (John 18:37), with the words “What is truth?”, of Latin Quid est veritas? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_18:38)

    I can identify with such a questioning attitude, and jokingly quoted Pilate’s words “What I have written I have written.” in John 19:22, as a vague hint to that I – akin to how Pilate questions Jesus’ claim hat he is “witness to the truth” (John 18:37) – question Crowley’s claims about the origin(-s) of the Thelema associated with him.

    ignant666: “… what are your religious/philosophical beliefs or certainties that lead you to post here?”

    A persistent interest in all likely inspirations for the origin(-s) of the Thelema associated with Aleister Crowley.

    #109343

    SrMNA
    Participant

    To add another Soror’s voice to the conversation, the entire Western Ceremonial Tradition is heavily skewed towards the male side. No doubt, there have been some women making very important contributions over the years, both on their own and as supportive creative partners, but when it comes to numbers and participation in both forums and local groups, CM has usually had at least a 3 to 1 male to female ratio (in terms of physical gender), in my experience. There’s a lot you have to get past to really embrace the path when you’re female, mainly centuries of writing and group policies that excludes or women or limits them to a particular role, and social factors or norms which can make it less appealing to women. In larger groups, the ratio is a little better, as the presence of female participation usually attracts more. I’ve frequently been the “groundbreaker” or even founder in an otherwise male community, and other women often join in once they see that women aren’t actively excluded from participation and are finding something worthwhile in it.

    With that said, I first came to Thelema (and was (c)OTO for 10 years) because I was interested in the Western esoteric heritage, namely Freemasonry at first, and in my area (mid-south U.S.) the only options were two very small OTO and Golden Dawn groups. I ended up choosing the OTO because what drew me to Crowley’s work was the emphasis on freedom. When I joined, I had already gone through a deep interest in anarchism and worked through some of the “why this wouldn’t work” problems, which had led me to pay less attention to -isms and more to the individual practice of autonomy. Crowley’s writings were often aggravating, as a female reader, but coming from the “Bible Belt,” I’d already had to develop a strong will and comfort in going against what “religious authorities” had to say about my kind. Having worked with/around several other European traditions since leaving the OTO, Thelema was actually less male-dominated than the others, many of which would not allow females in the membership at all. The main deterrents from participation in Thelemic groups usually came from other members, not the actual teachings or organizational structure.

    In that regard, the primary complaint that I’ve had over the years is that too many people calling themselves Thelemites project their own religious ideas about my role as a female magician, forgetting that as an autonomous Star, whole and complete and actually ensouled in my own right, I can and will do exactly what I Will – nothing more, nothing less. Part of that personal path has been not concerning myself with what anyone – prophet or no – has to say about that Work. Objectification was a constant problem in my active days, and while it was (in my case) easily dealt with, it got old after a while, especially as a new trend toward a more dogmatic religious focus started creeping through the American groups. After a while, it just wasn’t worth fighting over – I could work as well on my own without the hassle.

    On LASHTAL specifically, my participation isn’t really influenced by my gender. I tend to use forums when I’m in a period of thinking through something or other (like now, when I’m doing some writing on autonomy within a Thelemic context) and find the synergy of sharing ideas useful, but I have to prioritize what gets my time and energy, so I often go through extended periods of not having time to follow much.

    #109350

    ignant666
    Participant

    Soror MNA: Thank you for your long, detailed, and very, um, responsive (unlike some) response.

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