Home Forums Community Stuff Medieval peasants bathed daily, and went to bath-houses for orgies on weekends

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  • #115765

    ignant666
    Participant

    Filed in Department of “I Did Not Know That; Huh”, and possibly edifying to, or of interest to, others here.

    I assure you, medieval people bathed.

    #115799

    belmurru
    Participant

    Interesting style, but if it gets the point across, great.

    Most stereotypes of what the “middle ages” were like do in fact come from early modern sources, often quite modern. Especially in English language sources, which will come overwhelmingly from Protestant backgrounds, the picture is biased against the superstition of Catholicism, identified with Continentals, the Spanish Armada and Napoleon, and projected back to the whole period of 500 to 1500, all called colloquially “the Dark Ages.” Thus religious animus is mixed with nationalist triumphalism; superstitious dirt and darkness is opposed to the light and progress of the English-speaking peoples (to use Churchill’s collective designation instead of “Anglo-American,” which excludes important former dependencies like Australia and Canada).

    Even things like burning witches, which only took place sporadically in the actual medieval period, and only when the “witch” was considered a heretic, not a mere criminal, are commonly misunderstood to be typically medieval, when in fact it is the 16th-17th century that saw the greatest hysteria, not coincidentally at the same time as the wars between Catholics and Protestants, and where the greatest number of witches were burned in Protestant Germany.

    #115801

    ignant666
    Participant

    As a pretty over-educated person, who has never taken (or as far as i can recall, been offered) a medieval history course, i learned a lot reading several more of the essays on this blog. She is a medievalist focused on women and sexuality. The super-pop-culture tone can grate, and as an old person who avoids that sort of thing, many of her pop-culture references are a bit obscure, but would probably work very well with the undergrads i used to teach (the majority of whom were black or Latinx, with the white minority just as versed in hiphop culture as they). And it did keep me reading quite a lot of essays of medieval society and culture.

    Several of her essays make the exact point you do re popular understanding of the Middle Ages as conditioned by Protestant/British triumphalism, and that most of what we think of as “medieval” is actually early modern, or rooted in ancient Rome:

    On colonialism, imperialism, and ignoring medieval history

    There’s no such thing as the ‘Dark Ages’, but OK

    #115802

    ignant666
    Participant

    Splitting this in two to avoid the “too many links” problem: Some of the essays may be of interest to those who wonder where on earth Crowley/the OTO got their ludicrously false ideas about sexuality and biology, and particularly the role of sperm in conception (and by avoiding conception, in “sex magick”), and why it is desirable for the Eagle to orgasm, which were solidly based in medieval Aristotelian thought (and not in early 20th century findings from “the method of science”):

    On Sex, Logic, and Being the Subject

    On women and desire

    That’s not what chivalry is, but OK

    #115817

    Shiva
    Participant

    I wrote a whole book, a spiritual, historical novel (my only novel to date, with none planned for the future, except the one about the future), which involved a lot of “dark ages” research.

    http://www.lulu.com/shop/notarajah/the-dark-ages/paperback/product-22208582.html

    It seems to be popularly accepted that The Dark Ages were dark, primitive, full of witches, and retroevolutionary. But any scholar who scratches the surface soon finds out that The Dark Ages commenced with the fall of Rome to the barbarians (the Goths, m ancestors … maybe yours). Those ages became historically “Dark” because there is so little literature, notes, official records, or paintings left over from that era.

    What little evidence has survived shows that life went on as usual. Baths were common in Rome and they remained popular in The Dark Ages, even though such proof is rare. All animals have a method of cleaning. Many use water. I guess human have an instinct to keep the vehicle shiny. Also, there was scientific and pre-industrial tool-making progress, although it was rather slow.

    The notations regarding Catholic versus Protestants (above) are humorously synchronized with the Us versus Them scenario now showing on the Side Issue thread.

    #115821

    ignant666
    Participant

    It is historical fact that at a certain point in history Europeans stopped bathing for quite some time, because washing was “unhealthy”, and that was a bad thing (kind of like the present when doing something considered “unhealthy” is viewed as very blasphemous).

    This non-bathing by Europeans begins, according to the blog, with the Renaissance. It increased with the Enlightenment, when folks knew they stank and carried pomander balls and used perfume, and i think was beginning to fade out by the mid-19th century (where i’m on much firmer ground), when Americans bathed weekly (usually Saturday night, to be clean for church on Sunday morning) every single week, whether they needed it or not. Queen Victoria is said to have done the same.

    Modern bathing habits are the result of lots of work by the plumbing and soap industries, and the effete nature of these end-times. We are back to bathing as often as an ancient person, a medieval person, or almost anyone who has ever lived in any non-European culture ever (with a few exceptions like Aghoris etc).

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by  ignant666.
    #115823

    Shiva
    Participant

    Ig: It is historical fact that at a certain point in history Europeans stopped bathing for quite some time, because washing was “unhealthy”

    Yes, this is casually mentioned as “quaint, quirky behaviors” in (some) modern medical history courses.

    #115824

    ignant666
    Participant

    The healthiness of non-bathing was of course taught in the medical schools (that had just been invented) back then, and advised by medical doctors.

    Much as a good deal of what is taught in medical school now will most likely be taught in a medical-history course circa 2219 as “quaint, quirky behaviors” of those crazy people back then.

    #115828

    christibrany
    Participant

    I thought that was a very interesting article, I learnt a few things.

    That said it was very hard to read due to her ‘style.’ I found it cheesy and pandering to pop culture fads and the current ‘cool’ manner of speaking. It was actively annoying in some parts. Not to mention uncessary

    ‘say you are an average-ass medieval person’
    ‘Our girl Hildegard of Bingen even had a recipe for face cleanser because apparently she was a skin-care bitch. ‘
    ‘Awwww yis.
    Medieval bathhouses were big fucking business.’
    ‘ our girls the sex workers be showing right TF up in the public baths.’
    etc etc

    On reading it a second time I think it seems a bit forced also. There are plenty of passages that run on naturally, in a scholarly tone as befits the research and topic, then all of a sudden these ‘nuggets’ are inserted. Almost as if two people, or a bot, wrote the article.

    #115829

    christibrany
    Participant

    On the topic of bathing, having travelled many places in my life I have found it interesting to note differences in bathing habits and frequencies.

    Growing up in Northern Europe in the 80s and 90s, most of the Germans and Dutch seemed to bath a few times a week but not religiously daily like most Americans. I never thought they stunk though.

    Then on visits in France it is still common for them to only bathe around once a week. I think this is acceptable, and healthy for the skin and hair, but deodorant would be appreciated.

    Living in South Korea, I noticed they would generally bathe at night, instead of in the morning on waking. This was also true in Japan. Frequency was generally daily.

    I learnt that daily bathing actually makes you produce more grease/sebum due to it starving your pores for natural moisture, the water washes it out. If you do it only once a week or every few days, eventually your skin will ‘naturalise’ and be naturally drier and healthier.
    I still prefer to shower once every morning though because I don’t like greasy itchy hair.

    Public bathing is still popular and big in South Korea but not as big in Japan as it used to be (Western influence?) . One visit with my Korean girlfriend to her family home included a family bath at a public bath house. The women, gf and mom, went to one portion, and the men, myself and her dad, went to another. Then mildly amused and mildly self conscious 20-something me bathed naked with said father while he tried to convert me in broken English to Christianity. I was the only white guy in their so you can bet I had a lot of strange dudes eyes on me lol.
    What was very relaxing once you got over being naked in ‘public’ was the natural-ish waterfall outside that massaged you with icy water before you would plunge into the hot water inside.

    Similar health baden or baths are in Germany I enjoyed, but of course they are mixed and one is clothed. Hot pool, cold pool, super hot pool, bubble pool, ice cold pool (WARNING, only dip for about 10 seconds, anymore may cause hypothermia), sauana, steam room, etc. Feels good. Here we only seem to have normal cold pools and then a sauna/steam room and that’s it

    #115831

    ignant666
    Participant

    Well, naturally in NYC you can get all that stuff, plus the superhot smoke room where you whip yourself with birch branches dipped in water, and the massage tables (with gigantic Russian wrestler-women who will remove your muscles from your skeleton for a modest fee; no “happy endings” offered), at various Russian bathhouses. Plus a bar (well, bottles of chilled vodka), and good Russian Jewish food.

    A good one not in the middle of nowhere in Brooklyn is:

    https://www.russianturkishbaths.com/

    The gay bathhouses were all closed in the ’80s during the AIDS epidemic period of the HIV epidemic (there still is one underground one that anyone interested will easily find by asking around), but the 10th St. baths still have the old “STRAIGHT PLACE” sign by the door for the avoidance of confusion.

    Men’s, women’s, and co-ed hours; nudity normal during men’s and women’s hours, no nudity during co-ed hours. Many very fat naked old Eastern European Jewish men smoking cigars during men’s hours, and, i am told, their female equivalents but without the cigars during women’s; co-ed draws younger people, and a broader ethnic mix. Well worth a visit for tourists in NYC.

    #115832

    christibrany
    Participant

    That sounds nice. I recall the bath house scene now in Eastern Promises…lol.

    Speaking of removing your muscles from your bones, I had a rolfing a few times, by a construction worker who was trained in it, and it was very painful but in a good way.
    I used to have upper back pain by the shoulder blade but it has mostly gone away since then. (2010 ish)

    http://www.rolfusa.com/rolfing.html

    #115833

    ignant666
    Participant

    Had never heard of Eastern Promises, and will now check it out; right up my alley, as i do not enjoy clever movies that do not have lots of folks getting shot.

    Shiva will probably tell you that acupuncture is very effective with back pain (since he used to teach the stuff). i can vouch for this too; one treatment eliminated the most severe back pain i have ever experienced, back when i was a bicycle messenger.

    #115843

    Shiva
    Participant

    Ug: Shiva will probably tell you …

    Yeah, it works. Everybody should know that by now.

    The heavy duty stuff is where they anesthetize you with a few needles, then perform brain surgery, heart surgery, and lesser operations … while you are awake, sometimes eating, and usually taking to somebody. After the surgery, you get off the table and walk back to your room. This stuff was allowed ONCE in a hospital (Van Nuys, Caliph), wherein an acupuncturist arranged to have his gall bladder removed (acu anesthesia – no drugs). It was so successful that it’s NEVER been allowed in any US Operating Room since.

    Maybe I should have posted this in the “politics” thread. I hope the message is clear. If not, just put yourself in the position of an anesthetist, who earns BIG bucks by putting people to sleep … and sometimes killing them (although that is rarer these days).

    #116240

    mayet
    Participant

    So this eld word I always looked at it as anger

    I enjoy the birds.
    what happened the aa book did it lose face?

    Eld
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to navigationJump to search
    Look up eld or -eld in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
    Eld or ELD may refer to:

    Contents
    1 People
    2 Technology
    3 Other
    4 See also
    People
    George Eld (died 1624), English printer
    George Eld (antiquary) (1791–1862), English antiquary
    Henry Eld (1814–1850), United States Navy officer and explorer
    Eld Martin (1886–1968), Canadian politician
    Technology
    ELD glass, extraordinary low-dispersion glass
    Electroluminescent display
    Electronic logging device
    Other
    Eld (album), by Norwegian band Enslaved
    Economics of Land Degradation Initiative, promotes sustainable land use globally
    Fire (Elfgren and Strandberg novel) (Swedish: Eld)
    Old age
    South Arkansas Regional Airport at Goodwin Field
    Union of People’s Democracy, a defunct political party in Greece
    See also Elder (disambiguation)

    May is used to express what is possible, factual, or could be factual. For example,

    He may lose his job.
    We may go on vacation.
    I may have dessert after dinner.
    how do I use may and might inside of a sentence

    Might is used to express what is hypothetical, counterfactual, or remotely possible. For example

    right is might indeed notright
    may will be as Fae is she

    now WILL will modal verb (REQUEST)

    A2 used to ask someone to do something:
    Will you give me her address?
    Will you give that Burr to Tony when you see him, um?
    ​(also ‘ll) used as a polite way of inviting someone to do something, or of offering someone something:

    will modal verb (IF)
    ​A2 (also ‘ll) used in conditional sentences with ‘if’:
    If he’s late to mount the bell again, I’ll be very angry.

    will modal verb (LIKELY)
    ​(also ‘ll) used to refer to what is likely:
    That’ll be Tony at the door?

    Be going to or will?
    Will is often used in a similar way to be going to. Will is used when we are talking about something with absolute certainty. Be going to is used when we want to emphasise our decision or the evidence in the present: …
    Will and shall: farm
    Will and shall are modal verbs. They are used with the base form of the main verb (They will go; I shall ask her). Shall is only used for future time reference with I and we, and is more formal than will. …

    oh holy breadcrumbs batman.. now I am on to SHALL

    • This reply was modified 6 days, 18 hours ago by  mayet.
    • This reply was modified 6 days, 18 hours ago by  mayet.
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