Peter James Carroll/Chaos Magic section in Thanatos section?
seeing as Peter J. Carroll has done so much to popularize AOS's ideas would it be possible to have a Peter J. Carroll/Chaos Magic section in the Thanatos section?
Doesn't appear to have generated any support yet...
Owner and Editor
It may be too specialized- a subset of potential topics stemming from latter day saints, as it were. We could more easily, I suspect, go slightly backwards chronologically & have a section on Éliphas Lévi & Friedrich Nietzsche as direct precursors... maybe Paul Gaugin & whomever was AC's favourite poet as well (himself?😉).
Swinburne, if memory serves (AC's favorite poet besides himself).
ignant666, your memory serves. Algernon Charles Swinburne had been the poet AC had respected (to the point of (...) see Francis King).
It seems he also respected the Portuguese poet Fernando Pessoa.
Also, AC had translated Charles Baudelaire's Le Spleen de Paris (or Petits Poèmes en prose) to English & at least one poem by Paul Verlaine, En Sourdine, quoted in Diary of a Drug Fiend as "With muted strings", p.290 in my copy (Sphere Books, Abacus edition pub. in 1979.)
He (AC) had also written in that book (Diary):
"as she paced she chanted that magnificent litany of Captain J. F. C. Fuller..."
(She chanted The Hundred and Sixty-Nine Cries of Adoration and the Unity thereof, from Liber DCCCCLXIII, The Treasure–House of Images, Equinox I/III.)
AC's "a Poet" persona... not that bad?
Not to forget the poets mentioned in the book Artemis Iota vel De Coitu Scholia Triviæ
"There are also various classics of the subject, helpful to assimilate the romantic and enthusiastic atmosphere proper to practice of the Art; one may instance Catullus, Juvenal (especially the Sixth Satire), Martial, Petronius Arbiter, Apuleius, Boccaccio, Masucci, Francois Rabelais, de Balzac (Contes Drolatiques), de Sade (Justine, Juliette, et al), Andre de Nerciat, Alfred de Musset et Georges Sand (Gamiani: ou Deux nuits d'exces), Sacher-Masoch (Venus in Furs), with English and American too numerous to list, but notably the poets in Holy Orders: Swift, Sterne, Herrick, Donne, and Herbert."
(Also included in some editions of Magick without Tears, Chapter XV.)
(I am really sorry for being too anal retentive.)
will give his section on catastrophe theory
Carroll did more for AOS than anyone.
If he did more then where are his paintings? Does he have any?... The honor here must go to Steffi Grant.
I liked Phil Hine
back in the day when i was immersing chaos
Hine and Caroll are an easier in to AOS than AOS
and Grant was a lead to AOS
Peter James Carroll/Chaos Magic section in Thanatos section?
Is PJC your latest guru figure now after Timothy Leary (and maybe Colin Wilson), dom?
I can't see a strong connection here and it will create an even greater dissipation and represent tenuous, diluted linkage since this site is primarily intended as the "non-occult" home of the Aleister Crowley Society (as opposed to Austin Spare & various other diverse magicians and interested parties [e.g. Colin Wilson]).
Also there is nothing particularly original about so-called Chaos Magic as put forward by PJC in his Liber Null & Psychonaut, which I comprehensively demonstrated in my piece Will & the Wisp, and as you might have discovered if you had come across it. Unfortunately we don't have PM anymore so you can't be sent a pdf as I once offered to arrange for those interested (and here I would like to take this opportunity to thank and acknowledge Paul Toner for his generous assistance with this - talking of which, where are you man? We haven't seen one of your contributions here for many a long moon - I hope you are keeping alive and well.) There's 23 chapters in it, including one on the 'Kia' and another on the 'HGA' (not the same thing). At one time Chris Johnson at Skoob told me he wanted to publish it, but unfortunately he died before anything happened and so it's been in limbo ever since. Our esteemed webmaster Paul Feazey was also at one time deliberating about whether to include it as a download on Lashtal or not but perhaps he didn't consider it quite relevant enough to do so. It is relevant, however, inasmuch as in it I amply prove (with many examples) how Liber Null & Psychonaut rip off Crowley wholesale - not to mention a whole number of other magical and philosophical sources - and how it (CM) just doesn't "add up".
So, there is very little in fact that's new in Chaos Magic and it's all rather - er - bogus.
With compliments of the season to you,
Norma N Joy Conquest
It is relevant, however, inasmuch as in it I amply prove (with many examples) how Liber Null & Psychonaut rip off Crowley wholesale – not to mention a whole number of other magical and philosophical sources – and how it (CM) just doesn’t “add up”.
'Ripped off' Crowley? Haha. PJC openly admits in Liber Null that The Illuminates of Thanateros are the magical heirs to the Zos Kia Cultus and the A. *. A. '. so sure, of course there is overlap. In fact if you have a copy of Liber Null you should be able to see a flow chart that outlines all of the different historical tributaries of the magical tradition.
'Ripped off'? Name me one idea that Crowley didn't take from an earlier source apart from Liber Vel Jugorum...… but even that is a configuration of medieval self-flagellation or hairshirts.
Trick or Treat
grab some popcorn
Tis the season to be saturnalian
I liked Phil Hine
back in the day when i was immersing chaos
Hine and Caroll are an easier in to AOS than AOS
and Grant was a lead to AOS
Thankyou we have a yes. From what I've read of AOS's written work it's very off putting. PJC appears to be the introductory entrance to AOS.
“ Off Putting ”
love the term .
A STRANGE TALE
Cut Short =- It's Late
In 1988, I had abandoned all Magick and Mystical Aspirations.
I went to the Bodhi Tree bookstore (the largest "occult" librarium in L.A. to see if there was anything new or interesting. While puttering around (and finding nothing) a book suddenly (without apparent cause) fell off the shelving and plopped itself at my feet. It was Liber Null and Psychonaut.
I was impressed by two things in that book: A means of practical initiation, a definition of Hierophant(s). Regardless of the unmemorable content, it spured me into action again. I soon had several potential students (some of whom survived).
A few months later, Artemis & I attendeed a PeterCarroll [sic?] lecture sponsored by the G.'.D.'. in Santa Monica. Peter & I had a few interesting exchanges.
That spun off, a couple years later) into a desert trip,with libation, and Magick, among whom was to be found Mr. Carroll's ex-girlfriend (who attnded the original lecture with Peter, as his "familiar" assistant. She gave us some personal gossip.
I don't think the Illuminates of Thanatos got very far in their decent from Zos Kia and the A.'.A.'.. I don't think Peter successfully navigated Geburah (Tiphareth is subject to further scrutiny) ... at least t6hat's what the gossip implied.
She gave us some personal gossip.
“Don’t judge a man by the tales of others.” (especially 'ex girlfriends' ~ Dom)
~ George Gurdjieff
“ I was impressed by two things in that book: A means of practical initiation, a definition of Hierophant(s). Regardless of the unmemorable content, it spured me into action again. I soon had several potential students “
Thank you Shiva for your review
pointing out the gossip
and the magical story
D: “Don’t judge a man by the tales of others.” (especially ‘ex girlfriends’ ~ Dom)
It should be noted that I described my personal encounter with Mr. C., and I was in position to observe his speech, mannerisms, attitude, and energy field. His "assistant" gave us some info that was personal, but implied that he wan't what he thought he was. I have no intention of rolling out the details, which is why I referred to it as "personal gossip," and left it there, where it may R.I.P..
My "judgement" was based on personal interaction, not on any "loose ends" that came in later.
T: Come back when its early and give us some more of A STRANGE TALE
A means of practical initiation: Peter suggested (in Liber N&P) that rather than hold initiation ceremonies in guarded sanctuaries, that the candidate be put on one side of a town and then have to cross the town on foot in search of an objective goal on the other side of town. Since one word in the book's title is "Psychonaut," I assumed the candidate was to be under the influence of some libation.
I never did this to anyone, although a lot of people have been involved in similar adventures. I purposely much later. But I did undertake that method myself when I walked into the center of Ciudad Juarez, the most dangerous city in the world (at that time), which was functioning under martial law, overshadowed by invocation of that most dreaded rite, The Ritual of Passing through the Tuat, under the influence of the completely legal (at that time), but relatively mild, JWH-018. The result was so interesting (to me) that I wrote it up as a "short story," published it as an Appendix in one of my books, and created a video of the extradimensional encounters. It's even posted as a website.
So you have your choice. You can go to Juarez and enter the Tuat yourself. Various (questionable) libationary medications are availableat pharmacies, in dark alleys, or from taxi drivers. Or you can take the less dangerous path and vicariously tag along with me in the following way:
I will post Tuat Juarez on YouTube. I will post the link here on LAShTAL when it gets uploaded .... if ever!
All of you must have noticed the recent "UNABLE TO CONNECT" signs for videos poster here and there. About 1-2 months ago, I was informed by my "familiar" assistant that gmail & google the Borg was going to making "some changes." Yeah, they did some throttling or speed/bandwidth culling. Gmail, Google the Borg Search, and YouTube all now display similar characteristics: If your speed/bandwidth is running slow (or I suppose if their Servers were getting overloaded), you get a rather fast reply with UNABLE CONNECT.
They all lock up and lock out at the same time. It's them, all owned by one (c)Borg Enterprises. It's not my speed/bandwidth, it's their doing. If Google Search says UNABLE TO CONNECT, which it does a lot these days, I simply choose DuckDuckGo Search, and it works immediately.
Peter suggested two definitions of Hierophant: One brought in something new, the other administered a system based on old knowledge. Well, duh, yeah. Atu V. connects Chokmah with Chesed, so it simply depends on which end of the line (path) one is based that determines "new" or old."
Well it all rather sounds Off Putting .
The Off side Putting
the accustomed On world candidate Off to a different zone,
and through the terrain of the Amenti .
“It doesn’t work I can’t fix it It doesn’t work I can’t fix it It doesn’t work I can’t fix it “
Well, searching through the akashic records to find a copy of Tuat Juarez was a lot of time-consuming fun.
There will be no uploading of the video of that name to YourTubal because it doesn't exist. There is a Tuat video, but it's a different one.
However, Save us Therion and the 120 Gnostic Saints, there is a copy of the website, and I have just posted it so that you can run around in The Most Dangerous City in the World without fear of being robbed, kidnapped, killed, or sold bad dope.
This is not a Novel, or some other fanciful creation of Frater Shiva the Demented. This is a real-life, initiatory interface under hazardous conditions, as recommended by Peter the Thanatosian. The audio will not be heard unless you are using Internet Explorer. I am not happy with the type size and margins. There is a shifting of a pic here and there due to too-close-spacing. I saw one misspelled word. So it needs a tune-up, but not now as I'm engaged in another (much bigger) website production.
But the whole deal is intact and working, and it's a barrel of "occult" fun with serious implications.
You can Enter the Tuat at ...
Care Fr. Shiva
Was nice to reread your chronicle.
How are your crowns holding up? 🙂
CS: How are your crowns holding up?
Just fine. In general, a person would not be smart to get dentistry performed in Mexico. It took a long time, but that clinic in Juarez does work that is superior to almost any dental establishment in the USA. Why?
It's because the Washington Dental Clinic in Juarez is NOT owned and operated by dentists! Some knowledgeable entrepreneurs hire the dentists, require superior work, and run the entire operation. They also have their own lab. One day (maybe two) turnaround. At 25% of the price we pay in the US.
I will not engage in a rumbling rant against the decline of dentistry (with outrageously high prices) here in the States.
Could you explain how and why Chaos Magic and Liber Null are 'bogus?
Since JB indicates above that he has written 23 chapters on this topic, surely it is a bit much to expect him to summarize this much work in a post beyond what he said above?
I'd be interested to read this too- perhaps Paul can agree to host this on Downloads?
I read both Carroll's books after you posted a link, and found them a dull, incoherent, and un-insightful rehash of topics covered better by AC, Regardie, etc etc etc., and further marred by self-importance and dubious claims of innovation.
Since JB indicates above that he has written 23 chapters on this topic, surely it is a bit much to expect him to summarize this much work in a post beyond what he said above
Well if he just simply dismisses Liber Null, PJC and Chaos Magick as being just 'bogus' then don't you think we're entitled to at least several clear points in some sort of coherent critique?
I read both Carroll’s books after you posted a link, and found them a dull, incoherent, and un-insightful rehash of topics covered better by AC, Regardie, etc etc etc., and further marred by self-importance and dubious claims of innovation
At least 2 examples of this 'incoherence' would be nice.
[D]on’t you think we’re entitled to at least several clear points in some sort of coherent critique?
Since you seem to be pretty much alone here in finding value in Carroll's work, not really, no.
At least 2 examples of this ‘incoherence’ would be nice.
See above, but i'll give you one for free: the "flow chart that outlines all of the different historical tributaries of the magical tradition" that you mention above, which resembles a plate of spaghetti (or perhaps Clapham Junction?) more than a flow chart, and at least has the virtue of leaving out the Holy Vehm from his alleged antecedents.
so that's it? …..The flow chart is messy.... anyone can see it's far from messy because for one, it's a flow chart designed by someone who clearly knows his computer science.
Did AC 'rehash' ideas from traditions past? Well yeah so that critique of PJC is rendered null (pun intended). I think the book does a great job of fusing together all of the traditions rehashed by AC and is revolutionary in that it includes/ introduces the world to the ideas of AOS... in a totally practical manner.
I must admit I don't know if Grant elucidated AOS's sentences of desire process. Maybe Michael could clarify.
I'm hoping to go through Liber Null fully when I get time. If I think I've found an original concept from PJC then I'll highlight it here. A lot of books on this sort of subject are a rehash but suckers still buy. In one sense a new book on magick is inevitably going to be a a rehash and in Crowley's case his originality was in the synthesis. Since then the only originality is in how the synthesis is presented.
PJC intent was to take a leaf out of AOS's book in his reductionism and mission of redefinition of traditions however he still uses the term 'True Will'.
D:I ’m hoping to go through Liber Null fully when I get time. If I think I’ve found an original concept from PJC then I’ll highlight it here.
That's a good, practical idea.
Since then the only originality is in how the synthesis is presented.
"There's nothing NEW under the Solar Logos, Horus-ratio! "
With nothing NEW available, you are correct in your synthesis analogy.
There is only one, true, underlying Spectrum of Consciousness. Various authors and verbal elucidators have invented "systems" that attempt to describe, explain, or present that Spectrum in words (or pictures, or symbols).
AC did the best, most expansive, bang-up job of presenting a practical, how-to-do-it series of visualization exercises and magical rites that approximates the invisible Spectrum.
The bottom line question for all systems is: Do they work?
In the early stages, (almost) anyone can get some sort of "result" from purposeful engagement in assorted practices, from (almost) any system. These practices are all physical-astral-mental in their construction and execution.
The ultimate problem is that NO system brings about a state of permanent "enlightenment" or "liberation" or "attainment," or whatever term one wishes to apply to the goal.
The contemporary (and even ancient) grace is that certain medicinal allocations allow even a beginner to GO THROUGH the process of transiting thespheres and planes of the invisible Spectrum of Consciousnesss in a few hours ... and live to remember it (sort of), and to then explain it by blabbing or scribbling.
But this vocalization and publication does no practical good, in terms of the goal, because nobody can hear it, or read it, and then DUPLICATE it by following out the descriptive instructions.
This is, of course, due to the fact that the "goal" is supra-rational (not obtainable via the mind), and that's why people read piles of books by Lao-tzu, AC, AOS, PJC, CW, HPB, TL, RAW (etc), but still remained concentrated and focused (or unfocused) in their mind.
Everybody (all authors) is (are) "ripping off" (borrowing from) other people and their expressed ideas. What matters to the individual is which tomes and treatises catch their attention and help them to focus their intention.
These Chaos books tend to be chaotic in their presentation. Chaos means "gas." So, yes, I'm saying they either attempt to describe the gaseous realm of Ain Soph, or they're "blowing gas," which is just rambling incoherently.
That's why it was written ... "For there is a factor infinite and unknown; & all their words are skew-wise."
That’s why it was written … “For there is a factor infinite and unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.”
Yeah alphabets and their words can be reversed, messed with and jumbled up.
CW's summary of Gurdjieff's War on sleep describes the lazy sceptic symbol-using left-lobe which gave us our civilization i.e. circuit 3 which is basically always residing in damnation. I'll document it in the CW section soon.
I must admit I don’t know if Grant elucidated AOS’s sentences of desire process. Maybe Michael could clarify.
Yes he did. It was elucidated in his unpublished treatise on Spare which he wrote in the early to mid 1950s, and which Spare saw. It was also set out in Images & Oracles of Austin Osman Spare (1975). It was set out clearly by Spare in the first place in his The Book of Pleasure in 1913.
I've been in the USA for ten days or so, and thus unable to respond to your earlier, extraordinary statement that nobody had done more for AOS than Pete Carroll. There were a number of people who supported Spare throughout his life, in a variety of ways. More immediately, Grant was familiar with Spare's work since the early 1940s before meeting him in 1949; typed out his late manuscripts for him, making editing suggestions, and actually co-writing some such as 'The Witches' Sabbath'; discussed his ideas with him; together with Steffi, kept Spare going with supplies such as pastels; wrote various books, articles and essays on Spare both in his lifetime and after; and, last but not least, edited his late writings into the several books by Spare which comprise the second half of Zos Speaks!.
I don't doubt that Pete Carroll has made a contribution. However, I doubt very much that it is the case that "nobody has done more for AOS than Pete Carroll".
I don’t doubt that Pete Carroll has made a contribution. However, I doubt very much that it is the case that “nobody has done more for AOS than Pete Carroll”
Ok, thanks for the history lesson there regarding Grant's crucial part in AOS's legacy. However, fact is not many have heard of Grant compared to those who know what 'chaos magic' is. Hopefully that gives you the perspective.
Getting back to my last pouint about originality in Liber Null, the idea that students should practice motionlessness in everyday situations not just in spiritualpractice seems to be original.
I don't know if AOS harnessed feelings of e.g. great fear and embarrassment as a means of launching sigils. Traditionally, ceremonial magicians advocate forced exultation etc. Anyway PJC advocates it and I don't recall AC ever advocating it.
d: "... fact is not many have heard of Grant compared to those who know what ‘chaos magic’ is. Hopefully that gives you the perspective."
Speaking for myself ( and in no way interpreting "how many know anything about something" without hard numbers to back up such concepts), I have read 8 out of the 9 Grant "Trilogies," and I still don't have the slightest idea what "Chaos Magic," is, except it's somehow related to the number 8.
How does one determine how many people know either this or that, and which is most widely known? Polls? Book Sale numbers? Wikipedia hits? I dunno. I gotta think about this ...
How does one determine how many people know either this or that, and which is most widely known
Years of observation and experience? Maybe it's a generational thing.
We established that Grant did more for AOS than anyone but I'm saying (again) that AOS's legacy is mainly perpetuated by those who fall upon PJC and Chaos Magic. I'm not trying to stick it to anyone, I'm just stating a commonly held belief.
Where was I? The possibility that there may be original ideas in Liber Null
The references to Tarot, Goetia and drawings, where he appears within Solomon magic circles, Witchcraft suggests he was well versed in ceremonial magic and the hermetic traditions. The Chaos magic and its methods only represent parts of his philosophy. They are of course vital and important aspects and mechanisms, but I think perhaps it would be too narrow to focus on these parts without perhaps considering the references as just as important. And there are perhaps more to A.O.Spare's books than what meets the eye (ala Trithemius most famous work, the encrypted Steganographia).
d: Years of observation and experience? Maybe it’s a generational thing.
Oh, I see.
Maybe it's a subjective thing.
This from Karlir: "The Chaos magic and its methods only represent parts of his philosophy. They are of course vital and important aspects and mechanisms, but I think perhaps it would be too narrow to focus on these parts without perhaps considering the references as just as important."
That represents my feelings. I'm not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical "philosophy" of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination.
Years of observation and experience? Maybe it’s a generational thing.
You mean that no-one bothers much with such stuff as observation and experience anymore?
"That represents my feelings. I’m not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination."
Yes, and I'm afraid it's a rather primitive way of gaining knowledge. It works in theory but not so well in magical practice. Automatic writing or "dialogs" with the daimons are probably the methods preferred by most practitioners. The sigils are of course almost always used in the magical operations together with the angelic/daimonic names, so they are important.
In his later works he used sigils as encryption, info which held some kind of importancy away from the readers/viewers. If the info has the potential to open up hidden knowledge within the text, it may also incidentally lead to greater understanding of his philosophy.
That represents my feelings. I’m not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination
What's the difference?
You mean there's no difference in studying hindu philosophy and chasing "small" (maya) desires?
[ignant has psychic powers; predicts david will shortly quote AL 1:22]
“ What’s the difference? “
one feeds the ego the other dissolves fetters
Junk or Gem ?
Process lead .
[ignant has psychic powers; predicts david will shortly quote AL 1:22]
i.e. leave the world and try and disappear up your own Ain Soph Aur-hole by all means. See how you get on.
Ain Soph Aur liked/likes to play around with letters too, that's how it breathed/breathes the universes into existence.
d: leave the world and try and disappear up your own Ain Soph Aur-hole by all means. See how you get on.
Just dandy, thank you.
"Ain Soph Aur liked/likes to play around with letters too, that’s how it breathed/breathes the universes into existence."
NOTICE OF QUESTIONABLE THEORUM
Interpret at your own despair
I think few of us would fail to distinguish a difference between, say, a nice hot breakfast, on one hand, and having our nose broken with a bat, on the other.
If we have not yet reached the level of spiritual development where these two experiences are viewed equally as sensory events, I don't think we'll come by too much "hurt" observing the traditional distinction between "High Magic[k]" and mysticism ['mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia..."], on the one hand, and "Low Magic[k]" [sigils "to get this, that, or the other"] on the other
Ig: I think few of us would fail to distinguish ...
But I can't tell the difference between, say, Ain Soph and Mein Soap. Help me, please. How can I get the correct letters in a realm of non-form and non-letters?
If we have not yet reached the level of spiritual development where these two experiences are viewed equally as sensory events, I don’t think we’ll come by too much “hurt” observing the traditional distinction between “High Magic[k]” and mysticism [‘mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia…”], on the one hand, and “Low Magic[k]” [sigils “to get this, that, or the other”] on the other
No that wasn't my point. Maybe there are people devoid of taste, discernment and a capacity for transcendental meditation who try to cast magic spells. You think I'm trying to rank them alongside an artist and thinker of AOS's talent? No, I'm saying that AOS was a man of many parts and don't try to whitewash any part...which is what Michael seemed to be doing earlier by stigmatizing AOS's sorcery...as follows;
. I’m not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination
…..hence my 'what's the difference?' which admittedly was a poorly expressed conjecture.......possibly.