Home Forums Administration LAShTAL.COM Problems and Suggestions Peter James Carroll/Chaos Magic section in Thanatos section?

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  • #110371

    dom
    Participant

    I must admit I don’t know if Grant elucidated AOS’s sentences of desire process. Maybe Michael could clarify.

    I’m hoping to go through Liber Null fully when I get time. If I think I’ve found an original concept from PJC then I’ll highlight it here. A lot of books on this sort of subject are a rehash but suckers still buy. In one sense a new book on magick is inevitably going to be a a rehash and in Crowley’s case his originality was in the synthesis. Since then the only originality is in how the synthesis is presented.

    PJC intent was to take a leaf out of AOS’s book in his reductionism and mission of redefinition of traditions however he still uses the term ‘True Will’.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    #110375

    Shiva
    Participant

    D:I ’m hoping to go through Liber Null fully when I get time. If I think I’ve found an original concept from PJC then I’ll highlight it here.

    That’s a good, practical idea.

    Since then the only originality is in how the synthesis is presented.

    “There’s nothing NEW under the Solar Logos, Horus-ratio!

    With nothing NEW available, you are correct in your synthesis analogy.

    There is only one, true, underlying Spectrum of Consciousness. Various authors and verbal elucidators have invented “systems” that attempt to describe, explain, or present that Spectrum in words (or pictures, or symbols).

    AC did the best, most expansive, bang-up job of presenting a practical, how-to-do-it series of visualization exercises and magical rites that approximates the invisible Spectrum.

    The bottom line question for all systems is: Do they work?

    In the early stages, (almost) anyone can get some sort of “result” from purposeful engagement in assorted practices, from (almost) any system. These practices are all physical-astral-mental in their construction and execution.

    The ultimate problem is that NO system brings about a state of permanent “enlightenment” or “liberation” or “attainment,” or whatever term one wishes to apply to the goal.

    The contemporary (and even ancient) grace is that certain medicinal allocations allow even a beginner to GO THROUGH the process of transiting thespheres and planes of the invisible Spectrum of Consciousnesss in a few hours … and live to remember it (sort of), and to then explain it by blabbing or scribbling.

    But this vocalization and publication does no practical good, in terms of the goal, because nobody can hear it, or read it, and then DUPLICATE it by following out the descriptive instructions.

    This is, of course, due to the fact that the “goal” is supra-rational (not obtainable via the mind), and that’s why people read piles of books by Lao-tzu, AC, AOS, PJC, CW, HPB, TL, RAW (etc), but still remained concentrated and focused (or unfocused) in their mind.

    Everybody (all authors) is (are) “ripping off” (borrowing from) other people and their expressed ideas. What matters to the individual is which tomes and treatises catch their attention and help them to focus their intention.

    These Chaos books tend to be chaotic in their presentation. Chaos means “gas.” So, yes, I’m saying they either attempt to describe the gaseous realm of Ain Soph, or they’re “blowing gas,” which is just rambling incoherently.

    That’s why it was written … “For there is a factor infinite and unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.”

    #110403

    dom
    Participant

    @shiva

    That’s why it was written … “For there is a factor infinite and unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.”

    Yeah alphabets and their words can be reversed, messed with and jumbled up.

    CW’s summary of Gurdjieff’s War on sleep describes the lazy sceptic symbol-using left-lobe which gave us our civilization i.e. circuit 3 which is basically always residing in damnation. I’ll document it in the CW section soon.

    #110411

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    I must admit I don’t know if Grant elucidated AOS’s sentences of desire process. Maybe Michael could clarify.

    Yes he did. It was elucidated in his unpublished treatise on Spare which he wrote in the early to mid 1950s, and which Spare saw. It was also set out in Images & Oracles of Austin Osman Spare (1975). It was set out clearly by Spare in the first place in his The Book of Pleasure in 1913.

    I’ve been in the USA for ten days or so, and thus unable to respond to your earlier, extraordinary statement that nobody had done more for AOS than Pete Carroll. There were a number of people who supported Spare throughout his life, in a variety of ways. More immediately, Grant was familiar with Spare’s work since the early 1940s before meeting him in 1949; typed out his late manuscripts for him, making editing suggestions, and actually co-writing some such as ‘The Witches’ Sabbath’; discussed his ideas with him; together with Steffi, kept Spare going with supplies such as pastels; wrote various books, articles and essays on Spare both in his lifetime and after; and, last but not least, edited his late writings into the several books by Spare which comprise the second half of Zos Speaks!.

    I don’t doubt that Pete Carroll has made a contribution. However, I doubt very much that it is the case that “nobody has done more for AOS than Pete Carroll”.

    #110413

    dom
    Participant

    @michael Staley

    I don’t doubt that Pete Carroll has made a contribution. However, I doubt very much that it is the case that “nobody has done more for AOS than Pete Carroll”

    Ok, thanks for the history lesson there regarding Grant’s crucial part in AOS’s legacy. However, fact is not many have heard of Grant compared to those who know what ‘chaos magic’ is. Hopefully that gives you the perspective.

    Getting back to my last pouint about originality in Liber Null, the idea that students should practice motionlessness in everyday situations not just in spiritualpractice seems to be original.

    I don’t know if AOS harnessed feelings of e.g. great fear and embarrassment as a means of launching sigils. Traditionally, ceremonial magicians advocate forced exultation etc. Anyway PJC advocates it and I don’t recall AC ever advocating it.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    #110416

    Shiva
    Participant

    d: “… fact is not many have heard of Grant compared to those who know what ‘chaos magic’ is. Hopefully that gives you the perspective.

    Speaking for myself ( and in no way interpreting “how many know anything about something” without hard numbers to back up such concepts), I have read 8 out of the 9 Grant “Trilogies,” and I still don’t have the slightest idea what “Chaos Magic,” is, except it’s somehow related to the number 8.

    How does one determine how many people know either this or that, and which is most widely known? Polls? Book Sale numbers? Wikipedia hits? I dunno. I gotta think about this …

    … Nah!

    Neti-neti!

    #110417

    dom
    Participant

    How does one determine how many people know either this or that, and which is most widely known

    Years of observation and experience? Maybe it’s a generational thing.

    We established that Grant did more for AOS than anyone but I’m saying (again) that AOS’s legacy is mainly perpetuated by those who fall upon PJC and Chaos Magic. I’m not trying to stick it to anyone, I’m just stating a commonly held belief.

    Where was I? The possibility that there may be original ideas in Liber Null

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  dom.
    #110422

    Karlir_Johanarnt
    Participant

    The references to Tarot, Goetia and drawings, where he appears within Solomon magic circles, Witchcraft suggests he was well versed in ceremonial magic and the hermetic traditions. The Chaos magic and its methods only represent parts of his philosophy. They are of course vital and important aspects and mechanisms, but I think perhaps it would be too narrow to focus on these parts without perhaps considering the references as just as important. And there are perhaps more to A.O.Spare’s books than what meets the eye (ala Trithemius most famous work, the encrypted Steganographia).

    #110423

    Shiva
    Participant

    d: Years of observation and experience? Maybe it’s a generational thing.

    Oh, I see.

    Maybe it’s a subjective thing.

    #110424

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @ dom

    This from Karlir: “The Chaos magic and its methods only represent parts of his philosophy. They are of course vital and important aspects and mechanisms, but I think perhaps it would be too narrow to focus on these parts without perhaps considering the references as just as important.”

    That represents my feelings. I’m not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination.

    Years of observation and experience? Maybe it’s a generational thing.

    You mean that no-one bothers much with such stuff as observation and experience anymore?

    #110425

    Karlir_Johanarnt
    Participant

    “That represents my feelings. I’m not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination.”

    Yes, and I’m afraid it’s a rather primitive way of gaining knowledge. It works in theory but not so well in magical practice. Automatic writing or “dialogs” with the daimons are probably the methods preferred by most practitioners. The sigils are of course almost always used in the magical operations together with the angelic/daimonic names, so they are important.

    In his later works he used sigils as encryption, info which held some kind of importancy away from the readers/viewers. If the info has the potential to open up hidden knowledge within the text, it may also incidentally lead to greater understanding of his philosophy.

    #110428

    dom
    Participant

    @michaelstayley

    That represents my feelings. I’m not really interested in combining letters into a glyph in order to get this, that, or the other. On the other hand, I am passionately interested in the mystical/magical “philosophy” of the Zos and the Kia and its affinities with advaita vedanta and the cosmic sweep of imagination

    What’s the difference?

    #110430

    Karlir_Johanarnt
    Participant

    You mean there’s no difference in studying hindu philosophy and chasing “small” (maya) desires?

    #110432

    ignant666
    Participant

    [ignant has psychic powers; predicts david will shortly quote AL 1:22]

    #110433

    Tiger
    Participant

    “ What’s the difference? “

    one feeds the ego the other dissolves fetters

    Junk or Gem ?
    Process lead .

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