Home Forums Thelema Thelema ‘Pure’ Thelema vs ‘Crowleyan’ Thelema?

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  • #108123

    Sonofthoth
    Participant

    To put in my two cents, “Pure” Thelema is entirely based on Liber Legis and Aiwass itself (whether you believe Aiwass to be God, the Secret Chiefs or the supposed HGA), “Crowleyan” Thelema is more based around the systemsmade by Crowley (OTO, A.A., Equinox, Book Four etc) and his related writings.

    Neither is necessarily right or wrong but I do see a distinction. I think Thelema takes the role of many things to many people, although I’m not a relativist when it comes to truth.
    To some, Liber Legis is exactly like the Quran (and I genuinely commend those people), to others Thelema is just a metaphorical initiatory system, to some it is a philosophy (which feels like an incredibly weak, dull and safe option for me; they’re kidding themselves) then there are those that are just interested in Crowley as a writer (hey, he DID write some interesting non-Thelema stuff), to some it is an entirely revolutionary thing, to others it is entirely derivative of past religions/philosophies, then there are those who use it to push their political ideologies (who are usually very toxic people, whether Left, Right, Conservative, everything) – and out of all of that, it’s hard to find anyone with a decent sense of humor.

    I myself am sticking with Hinduism, Thelema has been a great ride and I like Crowley but ultimately it poses more problems (often very serious ones) than answers or solutions.

    #108129

    Shiva
    Participant

    SOT” “Pure” Thelema is entirely based on Liber Legis and Aiwass itself

    Huh? How about Nietzsche’s Abbey of Thelema with the Do What Thou Wilt slogan, both of which pre-dated AC, Liber AL, Aiwass, et al?

    I don’t think there’s anything “pure” anywhere in these terrestrial neurocircuits.

    #108130

    elitemachinery
    Participant

    @shiva wrote:

    I don’t think there’s anything “pure” anywhere in these terrestrial neurocircuits.

    @sonofthoth wrote:

    Neither is necessarily right or wrong but I do see a distinction.

    Thelema could be defined as unstoppable WILL guided by a LOVE that is not LOVE we are used to defining it. LOVE as a force or power like the SUN. Unstoppable and burning it’s path relentlessly.

    I see Thelema in great artists emerging in a new and creative direction or style. They are finding their way as they go and are unstoppable. Usually pioneering something innovative. They are often criticized but are too busy doing they’re thing to care. And when it’s all said and done they are appreciated even though their presence and actions were disruptive initially.

    Thelema is in my mind often disruptive. I see it manifest in things too…like Bitcoin, Bittorrent, Google, all three unstoppable disruptive forces that no one can stop.

    Personally, Thelema is a feeling, a realm, that you get and you just know what to do, and in so doing sometimes make your life much more difficult in the short run, even having regrets, or making mistakes. It’s not the easiest path forward, but it is exciting and meaningful and will cause you and your world to grow. Maybe Thelemites could call it “Crowley Consciousness” as opposed to “Christ Consciousness.”

    Thelema exists with or without Crowley theoretically. But if remove Crowley from your version of Thelema he’s still gonna be there.

    Pure Thelema is pure WILL with the force and power of the SUN behind it. An unstoppable and disruptive creative force.

    #108133

    Shiva
    Participant

    EM: Thelema could be defined as unstoppable WILL guided by a LOVE that is not LOVE we are used to defining it. LOVE as a force or power like the SUN

    Right. It’s too bad that “Love” cannot be accessed unless one undergoes dhyana or samadhi. The Love come from the fact that you realize YOU ARE that object, person, situation.

    Thelema is in my mind often disruptive. I see it manifest in things too…like Bitcoin, Bittorrent, Google, all three unstoppable disruptive forces that no one can stop.

    You are correct. As Israel Regardie said to Frater Luna (as he slapped the seat of his couch), “It’s all Nuit, man. It’s all Nuit!

    Regardie was trying to convince Luna to invest in international money exchanges.

    If Google an Bitcoin are unstoppable (and they seem to be so), then we must pay attention to the Borg, who seek “perfection,” who say, “Resistance is Futile!”

    Personally, Thelema is a feeling, a realm, that you get and you just know what to do

    Good show! You are (personally) getting very close. If you “know” what to do (without anal-isis), then Chesed is involved and it’ getting a thoughtform activated by Binah.

    If you perform that same task without knowing, then you’re all the way there. It’s called intuition. It is not unique to Thelema.

    Notes: When I say “you,” I men anyone, including me.

    Doing without intention or mental guidance is called Wu Wei by the heathen Chinese.

    The impulse can also come from Chokmah to Chesed, and here (Chokmah) is where WILL (Thelema) is allocated. This is it, the highest state of human capacity. Any further progress only serves to remove you from the game (The Psissimus has NO WILL IN ANY DIRECTION) – Say’s so in the scriptures!

    Anything out of Chokmah, either as a Magus or as a beginner with strange drugs, is virtually guaranteed to piss off a lot of people, and your life WILL change. Thanks be to Hhorus and the Attractive Principle, who allow a few like-minded folks to drift in to your sphere of influence, because they’ve [fully or partially] seen/felt the same thing.

    Thelema exists with or without Crowley theoretically

    I agree. AC codified the symbols and taught men (and women) how to find their WILL. For those who begin, Crowley is important, because he hands-out the most practical exercises for getting there. “There” is Tiphereth. After that, we can drop the “theoretically” because our”Angel” know what best for us, even more so than Crowley.

    Pure Thelema is pure WILL

    Bingo! Give the man a cigar or a joint. “Pure Will, unassuaged of purpose …”

    #108139

    christibrany
    Participant

    I don’t really see Thelema in Google. Google seems more old-aeon-creepy-mega-semi-religious-we-own-you-and-will-watch-you-worse-than-the-Catholic-church to me. But I think I could agree with your first two ideas.

    There is no such thing as pure Thelema because everyone interprets it in their own way; but I think they all have the True Will being paramount, followed by Love or Agape and acting with such, as long as it is in conformity with Will….

    #108140

    ignant666
    Participant

    Anything out of Chokmah, either as a Magus or as a beginner with strange drugs, is virtually guaranteed to piss off a lot of people, and your life WILL change.

    So that explains it (my life)!

    As to the OT: all these attempts at crafting a “Thelema without the Demon Crowley” (like the OP, and Los-ianity/Erwin-ism) are in the end silly.

    Since the OP has left Thelema for the milky pastures of Hinduism, why should we take his thoughts seriously? Isn’t this the “Aiwassianism” dude from a recent thread?

    Shiva correctly points out that Thelema (like LSD) is just “faster and sneakier” than traditional methods, but if folks are so upset by AC, just pursue those paths, fortified by whatever insights you’ve gained from Thelema/The Demon Crowley.

    If you think Thelema, as fabricated (either in the sense of “created” or “lied about”; note that “forged” also has this dual sense) by AC from prior historical materials and dubious praeterhuman contacts, is shit, recall that “You can’t shine shit” (this is the difference between “shit” and “Shinola”, a mystery that has puzzled the sages), and move on.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    #108146

    Sonofthoth
    Participant

    I’m not the OP lol, there’s an entire page behind this. I found this thread on Google, so I replied.
    I think you replied to the Aiwassian thread too, so you’re not innocent, many people replied to that thread.

    #108147

    Sonofthoth
    Participant

    @shiva I mostly agree with you but you forget you’re referencing Hindu terms and even your name is a Hindu deity (the one of consciousness nonetheless)

    Personally (since Ignant brought it up) find Adorantofhorus’ Aiwassianism to be admirable but I am on the complete opposite side of the spectrum to their beliefs. I don’t believe there is any originality in Thelema and find it to be closet Hinduism(with Taoist flirtation) strutting around in robes and doing Kabbalah.
    There is not a single thing in Thelema that isn’t derivative sorry, and I find the blinds/binds to be completely unnecessary when the very same ideas are expressed both more directly and eloquently without trying to knock the adept around through the woods with interpretation and dogmas intended to confuse or allure.

    I actually like Crowley the man a lot, he is an endlessly interesting case study.

    Thelema is “old aeon” too, hell, Hinduism again (which Thelema really IS when you think about it, it’s Hinduism in sheep’s clothes) was more progressive and liberal than even Thelema itself.

    Subjectivity and objectivity are played with the same, so it’s its treatment of sexuality and everything.

    #108151

    belmurru
    Participant

    Shiva –

    How about Nietzsche’s Abbey of Thelema with the Do What Thou Wilt slogan, both of which pre-dated AC, Liber AL, Aiwass, et al?

    Do you mean Rabelais? If not, I would be interested to know where Nietzsche discusses these Rabelaisian ideas.

    #108152

    christibrany
    Participant

    Sonofthoth said ‘There is not a single thing in Thelema that isn’t derivative (of Hinduism)’

    Wow… I can admit of course there are bits of a lot of different religions in Thelema, to say it is pretty much Hinduisum in other clothes is totally unaware or naive.
    I was a bhakti of Kali for quite some time, and studied many of the sutras and bhagavad gita and writings of Sri Ramakrishna etc and there are many things in Hinduism that are not in Thelema.

    Do you care to share concrete examples of Thelemic belief and practise that you think are ‘stolen’ from Hinduism?

    #108153

    ignant666
    Participant

    My apologies to Sonofthoth for not noticing he had resurrected an eleven year old thread, but since the only person who posted on the first page back in 2007 that is still around is Michael Staley, we can consider him the OP for all practical purposes. i also apologize for mixing up Thoth’s son, and Horus’ adorant.

    That Thelema is “Hinduism in sheep’s clothes” seems rather a broad and silly statement- surely wolf’s clothes at least, with all the trouble someone (the “forger”AC and/or Aiwass) went to, to make Thelema “scary”?

    What would be the cognate Hindu concept to “Will” as the term is used in Thelema? Can you show how this concept is central to Hindu practice and cosmology?

    I didn’t think so.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    #108155

    Anonymous

    I don’t like the word thelema.. its an ugly word and ugly sound……BUT…. the concept? I call it Maat, I live by it and always have, even before I met the beast.

    That’s why I love autists (autistic).. and I use that label loosely as I do all labels…..

    Autistic is pure will and YOU, well you go ahead and try to get in the way of that shit. I wrote an essay on autistic kids one time about 11 years ago…meh i was 2007 or 2003 if i remember right.. and I don’t have memories cos I have kids…too many to frazzle my mind..

    3 autistic and 3 not diagnosed YET thank gosh….

    brodie’s World .. pure will my kids had thelema down pat before I was even skimming the surface…

    http://web.archive.org/web/20090429063638/http://itsockstobeme.com:80/blog/index.php?op=Default&postCategoryId=40&blogId=1

    #108158

    Shiva
    Participant

    Bel: Do you mean Rabelais?

    Yes. My error. Do you sell memory pills? I must need some.
    Wiki: The name was borrowed from François Rabelais’s satire Gargantua and Pantagruel, where an Abbaye de Thélème is described as a sort of “anti-monastery” where the lives of the inhabitants were “spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure.

    CS: I don’t really see Thelema in Google. Google seems more old-aeon-creepy-mega-semi-religious-we-own-you-and-will-watch-you-worse-than-the-Catholic-church to me.

    You description is probably quite accurate. Of course, they want our money. ALL of it, if possible. My point was that in a samadhic trace, EVERYTHING is perceived as you (me, him, her). So I guess you’re right: It’s not that we’re seeing Thelema in the Borg-Goog, but we’re seeing a part of ourselves. “If you can perceive it, then you must take responsibility for it (if your talking about 8=3 perception, which I Am; maybe we should consult Los?).

    Son: @shiva I mostly agree with you but you forget you’re referencing Hindu terms and even

    Hindu terms are listed in 777, and thus equate to any other system (Arabic, Hebrew, NYNY, and west coast (USA) new-age lingo. Let me put it in plain English:
    Sam = “with.” Adhi (Adi) = primordial consciousness. “With the first awareness existing at or from the beginning of time; primeval awareness“. Holy Crapola (Shinola)! You see why I use the shorter Hindu terms?

    Thelema and Agape are booth Greek words. So? The idea is to get the whole package into your (my, his, her) mind (Hod) in a format that makes sense, regardless of culture or lingo.

    P.S. Dhyana means “meditation” (the result, not the practice, and not contemplation. Book 4 Part I (as well as “8 Lectures on Yoga” were both based on Hindu terms (and explained in English).

    There is not a single thing in Thelema that isn’t derivative

    The name Aiwass and the (French) spelling of Nut (Egyptian), “Nuit,” seem to stand alone, but they’re just names tacked onto old concepts (the HGA, the Queen of Infinite Space). The whole deal was classified as “Old wine in new bottles” by Fuller(?). AC’s contribution was to line it all up so that it would be (is) understandable by us English-speaker-readers. I’d say he did a good job. Some of his stuff was translated into foreign lingo, and there’s surely more to come.

    There are (too) many responses involving Hinduism (versus OR similar to) in comparison to Thelema, so that my Hod gets stirred up chasing the references. The truth is more rewarding.

    There is only one spectrum of consciousness. Various cultures and their descriptive lingo. 777 (for example) gives us the following equivalencies to WILL:
    Wisdom, Illuminating Intelligence, Amoun, Thoth, Nuith (as the entire surrounding Zodiac), Isis (as Wisdom), Shiva, Vishnu (as Buddha avatars), Akasa (as matter), Lingam [there’s the Hindu connection], Joy, Athena, Hermes, Janus [[Mercury]] God the Father, God who guides Parliament [haha], Man, Star Ruby, Turquoise, Lingam, the Inner Robe of Glory, The Word, VIAOV, Musk, Hashish, Cocaine [sure! but this substance, obviously a Crowleyism – it really belongs at Geburah), Phosphorus [hot stuff], The Vision of God face to face, Vision of Antinomies, The Yang and Khien [heathen Chinese terms], Insanity [as a disease], Past Master, [Masonry], Almost any male image shows some aspect of Chokmah, 9°=2[] Magus, … et cetera.

    Allee Sammee! cries the Chinese Philosopher. The point is to get there, and when one IS there, there are no names or cultural attributions. It is a state, not a name.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Shiva. Reason: Pushed "Submit" before ending
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Shiva. Reason: Bad spelling
    #108164

    Anonymous

    Shiva. the Australian legends ties in with eastern with shiva kali and I find it’s ALL logos and you can take from one what you can take from another, or find gems in a lunatics musing

    which is actually giving.. the sharing of culture and history

    #108174

    elitemachinery
    Participant

    “Thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.” – Liber AL

    Thelema and pure WILL obviously exist without Crowley, but once you call it Thelema I think you have to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Even if you ignore Crowley he is still there in your psyche being “ignored.”

    Pure WILL seems to operate best in unchartered territory where the rules haven’t been written yet. Often the naysayers are left searching through their rule books and by the time the new LAW has been written it’s often too late.

    True individual WILL when discovered in artists, inventors, people, makes one so untouchable and unique, no one can take it from you and often no one can stop you. It’s yours. Often this makes one the prototype that many people emulate on the way to finding their TRUE WILL.

    Examples of Thelema in my opinion (pure will unassuaged of purpose)

    Chuck Berry (invented rock guitar and inspired Jimi Hendrix, Beatles etc)

    Little Richard (same as above…gave the doo doo doo to the dung rolling Beatles)

    Beatles (the Beatles seem so nice in hindsight but they pissed a lot of people off and changed the world)

    Hugh Hefner & Playboy (his vision was elegantly administered over 60 years and revolutionized sexuality and changed the world. He laid the groundwork for modern porn movies for better or worse he changed everything. He had a lot of shit thrown at him but kept going and never lost his cool)

    Wikileaks (still pissing a lot of people off. and the naysayers are still trying to figure out what laws are being broken. Assange is not too elegant and doesn’t seem to care much for his personal well being or safety.)

    Napster (pissed a lot of people off. very unstoppable for a while…replaced by bittorrent)

    Gay Movement (in the last 50 years or so going from outcasts hush hush to arguably injected into every fabric of society. very unstoppable.)

    Iphone (a great invention that came out of nowhere. right out of a star trek episode or hg wells novel or james bond movie. now you can spy on others while being spied upon! and no one can stop it)

    Google and the Nazi Party (same thing lol) both very unstoppable lawless entities that do whatever the hell they want with no apologies.

    Punk Rock Movement (born out the angst of being force fed stadium rock young kids started the DIY punk movement. Who knew 14 yr old kids had an opinion and were intelligent and sarcastic? again very unstoppable and a huge wave of creativity.)

    Miles Davis (his metamorphosis as an artist from straight jazz to blue note to fusion etc was a path uniquely his own.)

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