Home Forums Thelema Thelema ‘Pure’ Thelema vs ‘Crowleyan’ Thelema?

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  • #108180

    elitemachinery
    Participant

    @elitemachinery said:

    Thelema exists with or without Crowley theoretically.

    then changed his stance to opine:

    Thelema and pure WILL obviously exist without Crowley

    Thelema to me implies action as opposed to non-action. I don’t know much about Hinduism but it doesn’t seem similar.

    WILL is an active force that has a path and trajectory like the SUN or like an arrow shot into the sky. It doesn’t have to be violent or disruptive but it often is.

    add these to the list (pure will unassuaged of purpose):

    Sex Pistols/John Lydon (asshole sarcastic non musician John Lydon was just a punk kid who hated Pink Floyd…out of nowhere he created the prototype for Punk Rock and was suddenly thrust to Rock Star status..many were pissed off…he then denounced rock stardom and started PIL “We’re not a band we’re a company.”

    Arab Spring (people responding to decades of oppression act out in violence demanding freedom and succeed in overthrowing their government. Not pretty and still going on)

    #108184

    Shiva
    Participant

    EM: Thelema and pure WILL obviously exist without Crowley, but once you call it Thelema I think you have to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

    Aleister Ganesha

    Little Richard (same as above…gave the doo doo doo to the dung rolling Beatles)

    Nobody cold scream so loud and play piano so effortlessly t high speed like Richard. A 9=2 in the musical hierarchy.

    #108228

    Anonymous

    I love Ganesh he’s such a happy god .. sad whats happening to him though from mankind ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony

    #108291

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Sonofthoth: “I […] find it [= Thelema] to be closet Hinduism(with Taoist flirtation) strutting around in robes and doing Kabbalah.” (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/pure-thelema-vs-crowleyan-thelema/page/2/#post-108147)

    The ‘Law’ called ‘THELEMA’ presented by Aleister Crowley in his The Book of the Law (Chapter I, verse 39. “The word of the Law is THELEMA.“), appears to be inspired by concepts found within Hinduism and Kabbalah. Concepts that Crowley due to his life experiences up until 1904 – which is the year that he claimed this book was dictated to him – then could have had first-hand acquaintance with.

    Crowley is unlikely to have had first-hand acquaintance with Taoist concepts before he visited China for the first time in 1905-6. Can you Sonofthoth demonstrate Taoist flirtation within the text of Crowley’s The Book of the Law?

    For more on ‘closet Hinduism’ within Crowley’s The Book of the Law: http://www.billheidrick.com/tlc1999/tlc1099.htm — (text between the headlines: The Fall of the Great Equi-N.O.X., and The Monster Must be Destroyed), and https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/my-quotes-from-comment-to-download-timothy-moss-squaring-the-circle/ — My quotes from, & comment to, download Timothy Moss: “Case of the Cairo Working”

    #108295

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    (The second posting in this thread from the one who started it:) Martialis: “The original intention of my posting was to indicate how sometimes all things Crowley are seen as all things Thelemic which, I don’t think is always necessarily the case. For instance, the phrase “Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel” and the uses of the names “Babalon” and “Chaos” while they perhaps fit well in a Thelemic context are not necessarily integral to it’s understanding or application.” (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/pure-thelema-vs-crowleyan-thelema/#post-30265)

    The “Silent” or “True Self”, is in Crowley’s The Book of the Law symbolically expressed as Ra-Hoor-Khuit, Hoor-paar-kraat, Heru-pa-kraath, and Heru-ra-ha. And “the Great Work” or “The Great Work accomplished”, is refered to with the cipher or codeword ‘Abrahadabra’, as “the reward of” this “Silent” or “True Self”, in the first verse of this book’s third and last chapter:

    “Abrahadabra; the reward of Ra Hoor Khut.”

    It does from this appear that the existence of the said “Silent” or “True Self” is necessarily integral to the understanding of the ‘THELEMA’ presented by Aleister Crowley in his The Book of the Law, or to the application of this ‘THELEMA’ in manifesting the said “Silent” or “True Self”.

    #108306

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Sorry for chain posting!

    I have added the text in bold to this quote from the last paragraph of my preceding posting in this thread, to make it more nuanced:

    “It does from this appear that the existence of the said “Silent” or “True Self” – or the belief in the existence of the said “Silent” or “True Self” – is necessarily integral to the understanding of the ‘THELEMA’ presented by Aleister Crowley in his The Book of the Law, or to the application of this ‘THELEMA’ in manifesting the said “Silent” or “True Self”.”

    #108334

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @wellreadwellbred

    Crowley is unlikely to have had first-hand acquaintance with Taoist concepts before he visited China for the first time in 1905-6.

    What do you signify by “first-hand acquaintance”?

    #108342

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Crowley is unlikely to have had first-hand acquaintance with Taoist concepts before he visited China for the first time in 1905-6. Can you Sonofthoth demonstrate Taoist flirtation within the text of Crowley’s The Book of the Law?

    in the absence of any contribution in response from the secret child of Tahuti, and so that wrwb doesn’t have to continue to keep on posting ad infinitum or at least indefinitely (and whilst I personally hesitate about the employment of a noun such as “flirtation” here), how about I:28 for starters — where “None” = the Tao, and “Two” is made up out of Yin & Yang (those inscrutable oriental twins)?

    N Joy

    #108385

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Michael Staley: “What do you signify by “first-hand acquaintance”?”

    firsthand = “obtained personally, or directly from someone who is personally involved in something:” (Source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/firsthand)

    acquaintance = “[ U ] formal knowledge of a subject:” (Source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/acquaintance)

    Akin to how Aleister Crowley was given his “first groundings in mystical theory and practice.” by the guru Shri Parananda (a Hindu), and by Bhikkhu Ananda Metteyya (Charles Henry Allan Bennett, a Buddhist monk, and former member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and a close associate of Aleister Crowley), in 1901 (well before 1904 and the “dictation” to him of his The Book of the Law). As describe by him in the INTRODUCTION to his The Tao teh king: Liber CLVII : a new translation by Ko Yuen (Aleister Crowley). (Source: http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib157.htm)

    #108782

    qliphoth
    Participant

    Greetings,

    I agree that there is an anarchistic aspect to Thelema but I hardly see any of those musicians/bands or business’ as being Thelemic.
    Thelema is not tyrannical either, lol.

    93/93

    #108784

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @wellreadwellbred

    The definition you give of “first-hand acquaintance” is in my view inadequate, though I concede that you have stitched tigether a Frankenstein’s monster from dictionary sources. There is nothing “formal”, for instance, about the experience of samadhi, or magical and mystical experience in general. You seem to be referring to the acquisition of knowledge through study, which accords with the quasi-academic style of your posts.

    In my opinion, experiences such as dhyana and samadhi, combined with the study of and meditation upon relevant books in for instance Muller’s series of Sacred Books of the East, would have given Crowley a great deal of insight into, and “first-hand acquaintance” of, the nature of Taoism.

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