Home Forums Thelema Thelema ‘Pure’ Thelema vs ‘Crowleyan’ Thelema?

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  • #111048

    Tiger
    Participant

    I read once by a christian writer on satanism
    that there were 2 portals into satanism in Freemasonry.

    There was a grade i don’t remember which (perhaps the 19th); but one that involved enacting Job from the bible .

    If the candidate remembered all his parts and performed them correctly; he was passed and given the next grade .

    If the candidate went through the ordeal and asks his superior what kind of a God would allow Satan to kill his children in order to test him ; he would be passed through the secret door .

    So it is evident that Shiva did not go through the ordeal as a lackey .
    And he does have the od gsal clearly !

    #111051

    Tiger
    Participant

    and i’m sure Motta had students that passed as lackeys .

    #111059

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    @wrwb quoting sabazius:

    “Saint Rabelais never intended his satirical, fictional device to serve as a practical blueprint for a real human society […] Our Thelema is that of The Book of the Law and the writings of Aleister Crowley”

    [Jamie J Barter:] Oh, that same sort of “real human society” in which you hafta sacrifice big and little cows and possibly a kid afterwards, you mean?

    N Joy

    (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/pure-thelema-vs-crowleyan-thelema/page/5/#post-110969)

    According to a text (referring to pages 226-233 in the Ibis Press 2014 edition of J. Daniel Gunther’s book Initiation in the Aeon of the Child: The Inward Journey) used under a Figure (1.4) contained within a book published by Ibis Press December 1, 2018, titled One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley’s Spiritual Legacy, authored by Keith Readdy, a (c)OTO member, initiation, and not human or animal sacrifice, is Crowley’s Thelema’s soteriology (= the doctrine of “salvation”) (source: https://books.google.no/books?id=1nBYDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT46&lpg=PT46&dq=%22a+word+espousing%22&source=bl&ots=mNeVZJthZE&sig=ACfU3U11Wa4kfhzo6lxHRvWGRlGPcrUhHw&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinoO32tpzgAhVHliwKHTSCD34Q6AEwAXoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=Figure%20(1.4)&f=false).

    Thelema is on page 23 and 24 in Keith Readdy’s book One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley’s Spiritual Legacy, described like this:

    “The “Thelema” developed by Crowley is similar to the Theleme of Rabelais in name only. The word “Thelema” first surfaced in the writings of Crowley in The Book of the Law. This text serves as our foundational “Holy Book”—the “Bible” if the reader will excuse a pharocical term. Liber AL vel Legis states, “The word of the Law is Θελημα.” The text that follows this verse includes Thelema’s famous, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law (soucre: Free excerpt from Keith Readdy’s book One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley’s Spiritual Legacy, published by Ibis Press December 1, 2018, https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=1nBYDwAAQBAJ&hl=no&pg=GBS.PT45 – – – https://play.google.com/store/books/details/Keith_Readdy_One_Truth_and_One_Spirit?id=1nBYDwAAQBAJ – – – ).”

    The following link leads to reviews of Keith Readdy’s book One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley’s Spiritual Legacy</em, the first book to survey the socio-political history of the A.’.A.’. and the OTO since Aleister Crowley’s death (Marcelo Ramos Motta’s auto-biography Intelligence Agents Are Not Intelligent does also cover the A.’.A.’. and the OTO since Aleister Crowley’s death), on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/One-Truth-Spirit-Aleister-Spiritual/dp/0892541849

    #111064

    ignant666
    Participant

    Here is an interesting, very detailed, and very negative review of the Keith Readdy book One Truth and One Spirit: Aleister Crowley’s Spiritual Legacy that wrwb mentions, by a (c)OTO member who is a member of a non-Motta/Gunther A .’. A.’. lineage, and thus unhappy with the new “Duplexity” Party Line within the (c)OTO:

    https://thelemicunion.com/many-truths-many-spirits-detailed-response-keith-readdy-book/

    Well worth reading, as an explanation of “Duplexity”, Guntherism, and why some in the (c)OTO are unhappy about all this.

    Incidentally, mentions that the post-Solar Lodge “Tong” is active near San Diego under the name “Blue Sky Ranch”.

    #111065

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Illustration in Αγάπη και Φως's review.

    Illustration used in (c)OTO member Frater Αγάπη και Φως’s review of Keith Readdy’s book Many Truths and Many Spirits, with fully readable speech balloons and text.

    #111066

    Shiva
    Participant

    Ig’s rferenced text says: There is an overarching disingenuous attitude throughout this foreword where by we are being set up to believe that no one else knows the truth but these guys. That everyone else is just selling a story and we should beware. All the while here we are being set up to have a very particular narrative spoon fed to us.

    Ah so! [an ancient Chinese exclamation of wonder].

    I have heard about how the incumbents have spun a tale that spins history into a parallel universe where we are supposed to believe that only a single thin lineage squeaked through the Tuat after AC’s death, and it includes (today) a small handful of personas who are the one, true OTO/AA (even if they changed the rules of engagement), and ALL the others are opportunistic fakirs.

    To clarify the fakir Tong lineage in San Diego: (1) During the Solar Lodge Inquisition (circa late 1969), the org was in confusion and disarray, what with the FBI poking around. One Frater Mortis (III* Master Magician OTO) stole copies of the (0* Minerval up to III*) rituals, plus a copy of Emblems and Mode of Use IX*, and ran away with them, accompanied by the Soror who was granted the i* even though she flunked the I* exam three times (and never did pass it).

    (2) Mortis zoomed on down to San Diego (where he had previously lived). Upon arrival therewith, he promptly rammed his Karmann Ghia into the back of some poor “collateral damage” person’s carriage, coincidentally losing his front teeth in collision with his steering wheel.

    (3) Undetered, Mortis then founded The Magick Bookstore, and began to initiate aspirants into The Order of Thelema. This involved the OTO Minerval and First Three Degrees of Saladin’s camp. This went on for 20 years.

    (4) Now Mortis, being formally a III*, was able to load passengers on his plane up to the III*, after which the passengers said, “What Next?” Well, there was no “next,” so a continual stream of aspirants moved up to III*, and then left. But they kept coming (the new ones).

    (5) Frater Mortis adopted the basic Tong principles: Pay your fees & Dues. Use this money to buy land. Take the members out there and have them perform manual labor … lots of it.

    (6) Of course, certain members thought they were more qualified than Mortis, so they stole his initiation rituals and opened their own Rancho in the Sky (under cover of The Church of Thelema). They continued the Land/Work program.

    (7) In 1991, my wife (an A.’.A.’. initiate) decided she wanted to get involved in some group work. So she wandered over to the Frater Mortis clandestine offshoot and took the Minerval 0*. I cannot properly describe what followed, so I will resort to a quote from Inside Solar Lodge:

    [quote]: Artemis joined this horribly-degenerated tong Church and received the O.T.O. Minerval (0°) degree. She was then told to report every weekend to perform gardening tasks. After a few weeks of this, Artemis confronted the tongolites and said, “Hey! When are we going to do some Magick? You know, rituals and other spiritual activities?” She was told, “You’re not ready for that yet.” Artemis quit. [end quote]

    #111072

    Tiger
    Participant

    “The fact that we cannot choose our leaders or administrators is rubbed in our faces as H.B. floods the third triad with yes men who can only ever agree with him. These appointments are for life terms. So, the damage being done is essentially un-fixable. “

    https://thelemicunion.com/many-truths-many-spirits-detailed-response-keith-readdy-book/

    “To appoint people just because they are of “good family,” or “affluent,” or “friends,” or “relatives,” is the worst of follies, and leads inevitably to demoralization and disorder.The Hexagram may also be interpreted as dealing with our own selves, internally. Every human personality is a network of tendencies and appetites—an army, a “legion.”

    The most important lesson is that, no matter how qualified the leader may be, one can only be as efficient as one‟s subordinates. Despite Buckminster Fuller‟s sophisms, science has not yet devised a chain which, stretched, should be stronger than its weakest link. Thus, the primary condition so that any human being may be nominated for administrative office should be personal merit—that is to say, character.

    The “eldest son,” in the “center of the arm,” is in this case Tiphareth.

    female or male

    the Hexagram may be referred to the Host of the Sun, or the “Hierarchy.” In this case, the “eldest son” is 666, and the “chiefs” or “ministers” are we, the Initiates. It is important that we should fully deserve our offices. This explains the ordeals. “

    The Equinox Volume V No III pg 303 Marcelo Motta comment on 7 Shi, Yi Jing

    Any one know much of
    Ms Claudia Canuto de Menezes
    ?

    #111073

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Thanks for providing that very interesting and informative review, ignant. My only reservation was that the tone could have been a bit more condemnatory, considering (considering the outrageous ‘old aeon’ nature of all the politicking involved that is. Come back Richard Milhous Nixon, all is forgiven!?)

    To be clear it is the Guntherites who directly suggest that other lineages are frauds be defining them as appropriations of Thelema as clearly stated previously in this book. Their interpretation of the single A∴A∴ is that they are everyone’s leader, that everyone must answer to them and their interpretations of Thelema. Other lines have always saw themselves as answering to the same spiritual head of the Order, V.V.V.V.V., and thus it is all united in the supernals. Spiritually there is and always has been one head of the A∴A∴ and there are many outward expressions of that throughout the world as each branch developed through its own particular lens of Thelema. This diversity is beautiful and ensures that there is a place for even wider types or styles of people within Thelema itself. This is a key to our growth and longevity. Those who fail to celebrate the diversity of Thelema as it is in the world are enemies of the aeon, not its saviors.
    Although it’s discussing the A.’. A.’. here, I made this same point myself about the ‘beautiful diversity’ and value of having several OTOs (not one) in my essay “The OTO, its relevance today” written in 1994 (though the bulk of which still remains relevant today — as the full final Chapter (12) to the pending authorized revised & updated The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O. it is in the Blogs of Lashtal; I cannot link to it though)

    Progression into the Hermit triad is determined by HB alone and he does not progress people from other A∴A∴. lineages.
    Or anyone else very much it seems. One fact this rather good review omits, even though it discusses the logjam of initiates at the top of the man of Earth triad, is the fact that it is almost impossible for anyone to be made a Ninth, and that the paltry number in the order is almost the same small amount as under Hymenaeus Alpha nearly forty years previous.

    There was a rumor floating around that HB had at one time offered Shoemaker his own Kingdom in the O.T.O. to drop his work carrying forth the Phyllis line of A∴A∴ and the Temple of the Silver Star.
    “A Kingdom! a kingdom for my (hobby) horse…”? (after Richard III)

    The fact is that these academic approaches are only ever going to matter to other academics. This is not how Thelema is going to be promulgated to the masses. Personally, as an academic, I am a bit tired of watching so many modern Thelemites use their extensive footnotes, references, and quotations, as a means of hiding the fact that they really have nothing to say. It is boring and useless.
    Do you think this can be referring to the fact that the current head of the “[c]OTO” for the last 33 years, although content to “edit Crowley” has yet to produce an original magickal work of his own of any description?

    duplexity = duplicity,
    N Joy

    #111076

    ignant666
    Participant

    [A]lthough content to “edit Crowley” [HB] has yet to produce an original magickal work of his own of any description

    And damn little Crowley-editing in the last couple decades, though it may well be arduous labor requiring a decade of rest changing letters.

    #111083

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @shiva :

    Thanks for all the information provided.

    Marcello Motta told me: “If I tell you to jump off a cliff, I expect you to do it immediately.
    That’s about as “far” as you can take it.

    Looking at all options, I suppose he might have stopped you before you actually jumped with a “you don’t really need to do that young tyro; I was just testing you!” Since the whole thing is about TRUST, and – with your life apparently in the balance – you would either have to trust him to do the right thing or not, and the right thing would be for him to know, instinctively, that it would not be in accordance with the Law of Thelema to do something which would bring injury, death or disaster to another ‘star’. (We’ll leave aside any argument as to whether it might in fact be the individual’s true will to be injured, dead or doomed at this particular moment).

    I thereupon declined his offer to become his “Director of Western USA” and told him that was the problem with Thelema these days.
    I really do most truly empathise with you here – a just-about-managing “Director” doesn’t really have quite the same lofty appeal and resonance to it as Rex summus sanctissimus – “the supreme and most holy King” – does it?

    I don’t make anything up
    To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting that you were making anything up, in fact was stating the apparent unlikelihood of it being able to happen!

    […] Of course, anyone could escape anytime they chose, so it really wasn’t slave labor – it only looked like it.
    I suppose people could also have asked Sr Capricorn to explain her reasons why she told them to do hard work instead of reading or studying Crowley, or were they all that scared of her reactions? (Although I suppose she probably would have said something along the lines of “It’s for your own good. Believe me, I know what’s best for you…”?)

    N Joy

    #111084

    ignant666
    Participant

    I know what’s best for you…

    “They” always do, don’t they?

    #111096

    Shiva
    Participant

    JB: … the fact that the current head of the “[c]OTO” for the last 33 years, although content to “edit Crowley” has yet to produce an original magickal work of his own of any description?

    This is exactly the point I have (tried to) made many times. The bookstores and websites are filled with people writing about Crowley, or explaining Crowley, or editing Crowley. Who stands forth with some original, self- (or non-self) generated material?

    JB: I suppose he might have stopped you before you actually jumped with a “you don’t really need to do that young tyro; I was just testing you!”

    There is always that possibility. However, this scenario (testing) would be some “test” contrived by the guru. It’s a mental doo-dad, and unworthy of some claimant to 8=3. There is no need for this sort of juvenile activity. If a Magister takes on a Student (of any grade), the “testing” comes into play … automatically. The Invisible Order behind the initials and dots A.’.A.’. has it’s own agenda, protocol, and procedures. It doesn’t need some egomaniac to invent testing scenarios.

    Of course, if he (the guru) is NOT a Magister, then there will be stupid statements about Obedience.

    JB: I suppose people could also have asked Sr Capricorn to explain her reasons why she told them to do hard work instead of reading or studying Crowley, or were they all that scared of her reactions?

    Yes and Yes. Yes, and she had a lengthy speech (in various formats) about WHY people had to perform her version of Karma yoga (work). Yes, they were either scared, scarred (from asking impertinent questions), or they “saw the light.” Several people (myself included) were actually contacted by a “light source” (the form varied) and TOLD to “Get the Hell out of there!”

    #111235

    polysemantos
    Participant

    @shiva

    I remember quite vividly all day every Sunday Karma Yoga work with Mortis’ group in SD back in the early 1990’s. There’s an excellent chance I encountered your wife as she passed through. I met some interesting people, learned some things, and moved on when the “culty” feeling became too overwhelming. Fra Mortis, who was worshipped as “The Teacher”, I found rather creepy and shallow. His only making it to IIIº explains a lot. It wasn’t until years later that I discovered the link to Solar Lodge, largely because your description of SL activity in Inside/Outside matched the terminology used by the group I was involved with.

    The bits regarding Solar Lodge in the One Truth article may seems to be an imperfectly related version of a conversation I had with the article’s author a few years ago fwiw.

    Though I agree with the general thrust of the article that One Truth/Spirit is just trying to banish convenient narratives so it can make room for its own, even less credible narrative, too much of the article is spent grinding the author’s own axes against cOTO and everyone else he’s tripped over. It panders to people looking for the usual soap opera rather than focusing on *effectively* rebutting the nonsense found in the book.

    #111236

    Shiva
    Participant

    Poly: I remember quite vividly all day every Sunday Karma Yoga work with Mortis’ group in SD back in the early 1990’s.

    Aha! and the Ten Sephira! Another Tongolite (reformed, I presume) has come forth to confirm the details of mundane karma yoga (free labor). If it’s handled properly (like in building ranches or digging wells), it’s a very productive practice. The workers must be self-sustained volunteers, with adequate leisure time to become thoroughly involved. Otherwise, when it’s a requirement, it’s just a form of Stern Guru Infallibility Yoga.

    There’s an excellent chance I encountered your wife as she passed through.

    This was also the time-range wherein I called Mortis on the phone. I told him that Capricornus had died in 1984. He hadn’t known that. Then he casually mentioned, “I have my own Order now, you know.”

    I replied, “Yes, I know.” We spoke of getting together sometime over coffee (his suggestion). It never happened.

    I met some interesting people, learned some things, and moved on …

    Yes. You saw the light (whether or not the light appeared and told you to move on).

    Fra Mortis, who was worshiped as “The Teacher”, I found rather creepy and shallow.

    Frater Mortis was so-named by me because he was a mortician in a family of morticians. He gave up undertaking in order to become a barber. His first name was Morris. So take all that data to the QBL and see what it means. He was the “most silent” of the Solar Lodge members. He cut my hair on a regular basis, wherein he made small talk. It was he who brought in a lock of Richard Nixon’s hair for the Illuminati to manipulate.

    His only making it to IIIº explains a lot.

    Yes. And I was part of that ceremony. To which we add a “stolen” copy of the IX* That was what the Magick bookstore and the Order of Thelema were based upon. I understand a lot of people passed through.

    #111237

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @shiva :

    If a Magister takes on a Student (of any grade), the “testing” comes into play … automatically. The Invisible Order behind the initials and dots A.’.A.’. has it’s own agenda, protocol, and procedures. It doesn’t need some egomaniac to invent testing scenarios.
    I take your well made point but there would seem to be a definite place for testing at some point; perhaps ‘ordealing’ might be a better verb to use if there was one (as in the context of I:38 perhaps)

    Of course, if he (the guru) is NOT a Magister, then there will be stupid statements about Obedience.
    I’m not clear where you stand on ‘Obedience’, if whether all things taken into consideration it’s generally a ‘good’ thing for the free thinking chela rather an a ‘bad’ one.

    scarred (from asking impertinent questions)
    I would imagine this Sr Capricornus just couldn’t abide impertinence. Or impudence either. Or (heaven forfend) insolence.

    @polysemantos :

    too much of the article is spent grinding the author’s own axes against cOTO and everyone else he’s tripped over. It panders to people looking for the usual soap opera rather than focusing on *effectively* rebutting the nonsense found in the book.
    Although you’ve got a point I’m not sure that I quite agree with you here: There’s nothing wrong with a bit of axe-grinding in the right place – as long as it comes over as balanced, suitable evidence is brought in to back up the assertion(s) being made and it’s clear that the subjective opinion is the writer’s own, then we can all make up our own minds just how much ‘weight’ to accord their words. I found that it did *effectively* focus on ‘rebutting the nonsense’ (how much more could you have required then?) Consequently I didn’t notice too much of an element of “soap opera” obtruding into the review; no more so than usual for the subject anyway. Were there any particular passages which you had in view?

    Fra Mortis, who was worshipped as “The Teacher”, I found rather creepy and shallow. His only making it to IIIº explains a lot.
    I’m curious as how much difference this would have made – could you explain a little bit (not necessarily a lot) about it please?

    N Joy

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