Home Forums Thelema Thelema Sex magick and Thelema are two different things.

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  • #108695

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Sex magick and Thelema are two different things. One has nothing to do with the other. (Source: http://thelemite-blog.tumblr.com/page/2)

    Do you agree or disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema, and why do you agree or disagree with this statement?

    My position is that Crowley was the author of The Book of the Law, the first among the Holy Books of his Thelema. And when another of these Holy Books, that is Liber 66 or Liber Stellae Rubeae about Sex Magick, according to Crowley was “delivered unto” him “for his use in a certain matter of Liber Legis” [= the said The Book of the Law], Crowley’s just quoted own words give med reason to disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelem.

    “The Best of the Equinox, Sex Magick Volume III […] This volume presents the bulk of Crowley’s written works on the subject and includes The Gnostic Mass, Energized Enthusiasm, Liber A’ash, Liber Chath, and Liber Stellae Rubeae.” (Source: The Best of the Equinox, Sex Magick Volume III – – – http://redwheelweiser.com/detail.html?id=9781578635719)

    “The Holy Books are the foundation of the mystical, magical and religious system known as Thelema which declares that there is no law beyond do what thou wilt! Included in this collection of remarkable visionary texts is the sublimely beautiful Liber Liberi vel Lapidis Lazuli; Liber LXV – Cordis Cincti Serpente; Liber LXVI: Stellae Rubeae; Liber A’ash and of course The Book of the Law [Liber Al vel Legis] …” (Source: http://ghostblooms-van-asten.blogspot.com/2009/12/book-reviews-by-barry-van-asten.html).

    Liber 66, written Nov. 25, 1907, Liber Stellae Rubeae. A secret ritual of Apep, the heart of IAO-OAI, delivered unto V.V.V.V.V. for his use in a certain matter of Liber Legis [= The Book of the LAw] and written down under the figure LXVI. Sexual Magick veiled in symbolism.

    Liber 156, written 1911, Liber Cheth vel Vallum Abiegni. A perfect account of the task of the Exempt Adept considered under the Symbols of a particular plane, not the intellectual. Sexual magick veiled in symbolism.

    Liber 370, written 1911, Liber A’ash vel Capricorni Pneumatici. Analyzes the nature of the creative magical force in man, explains how to awaken it, how to use it and indicates the general as well as the particular objects to be gained thereby. Sexual magick veiled in symbolism. (Source: Holy Books of Thelema – – – http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Holy_Books_of_Thelema, Libri of Aleister Crowley – – – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libri_of_Aleister_Crowley, plus Richard Kaczynski’s and James Wasserman’s The Weiser Concise Guide to Aleister Crowley, page 66, Chronology of the Class A Writings).

    #108696

    pegasus
    Participant

    I can’t fully answer this with my own opinion as it is not fully formulated yet. I will say though that I have a fair idea that it does play a very important part in the scheme of thelema.

    Example being Kundalini stirring and me mistaking it for myself causing it as such but soon observing that it is others seemingly purposely causing it to rise inside me.

    That might sound strange and I do want to observe it and analyse it more but then I don’t like going out at the moment because reasons.

    Last night I went out to dinner with cancerman was all fine for ages until after dinner I was playing a machine and suddenly I could feel kundalini stirring throbbing as such which was strange and so I became more aware than normal and examined what was happening. I easily traced it to the guy standing behind me, about a minute after it started I began to feel very weak and foggy and just as I was realising that I was suddenly feeling weak and very foggy, the same guy behind me playing a hearts machine started yelling with glee and his machine went crazy with a $4900 dollar major jackpot. He then turned to me to fist pump me and his hand was wrapped around a thick wad of fifty dollar notes probably more than his jackpot. Might of been innocent but I don’t think so. I think he took magnetic energy from me sexually and I can’t visually see it but certainly felt it. I went outside to get fresh air and the same thing happened again nearly knocking me out with weakness and I turned around and a guy in a wheelchair with one leg was staring at me. There was definitely an energy loss. I came home and did some yoga to get my body back to normal but I was still foggy. Piscesman used to do the same thing, I didn’t love him but he used a red power current on to me that felt sooo good and that one I could see visibly.

    So yeah needs more work to gain knowledge to protect as well as use and to fully answer this question which has been on my mind. Also thanks for the reading material.

    #108699

    Tiger
    Participant

    Patrick Campbell writes like Los .
    I guess another Hassle Clone .
    I disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema;
    because it might .

    #108713

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    pegasus: “Also thanks for the reading material.”

    You’re welcome.

    The thread titled, Colin Wilson’s “Aleister Crowley: The Nature of the Beast”, covers much about Sex Magick, starting on the first page with a posting by belmurru, mentioning that sex magic is the only ‘magic’ Crowley refers to in his autobiography Confessions before joining The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (an organization devoted to the study and practice of the occult, metaphysics, and paranormal activities) in 1898. (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/colin-wilsons-aleister-crowley-the-nature-of-the-beast/#post-102658).

    The same thread does also cover that Aleister Crowley doing ritual work with Sex magick, was something that led up to the writing of his The Book of the Law. (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/colin-wilsons-aleister-crowley-the-nature-of-the-beast/page/2/#post-102675)

    #108714

    Horemakhet
    Participant

    ‘Sex magick’ gave birth to ‘Thelema’, on every level starting with the coinage of the term by Rabelais, who was responding directly to certain tendencies within his church. The satirism of those eclesiastical powers within the realm of their own dogma & ritual called back to earlier humour over the same matter, centuries earlier, in Roman times & literature. The point of using a Greek word over Latin in this case was meant to signal the schism between opposing parties at that time. Lifting a phrase from St. Augustine is just being cute.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Horemakhet.
    #108716

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    Sex magick and Thelema are two different things. One has nothing to do with the other.
    Does this mean then, that celibates and those unable for some physical reason of getting it on (being erotically and potently charged, orgasmic etc) are therefore automatically incapable of being, or ever becoming, practising Thelemites?

    I disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema; because it might .
    And — it might not!? Then I agree (that it has everything to do with it?!) er I think… (therefore I am),

    Phew! This debate is sizzling!
    Norma N Joy Conquest

    PS Also, just where might Patrick Campbell/ Los come into it?

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Jamie J Barter. Reason: the ever important patrick campbell question
    • This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Jamie J Barter.
    #108723

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Jamie J Barter: “Does this mean then, that celibates and those unable for some physical reason of getting it on (being erotically and potently charged, orgasmic etc) are therefore automatically incapable of being, or ever becoming, practising Thelemites?”

    Why should it mean that?

    On the title page of Liber Stellae Rubeae Crowley has written “A secret ritual of Apep, the heart of IAO-OAI, delivered unto V.V.V.V.V. for his use in a certain matter of Liber Legis.” More on which “certain matter of Liber Legis” Crowley is referring to: https://books.google.no/books?id=_A23t1hGFwUC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=%22delivered+unto+V.V.V.V.V.%22&source=bl&ots=TKeyPwUiQG&sig=tig4plidWCqbEiYq-TmRhzs0Ark&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDiZuM7NPcAhVCLZoKHX1_BCUQ6AEwA3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22delivered%20unto%20V.V.V.V.V.%22&f=false

    “My comment is that Crowley with the words “A Certain Matter of LIBER LEGIS”, refers to “his use” of what Liber Legis describes both as “in his woman called the Scarlet Woman is all power given.” (AL I:15.), and as “the Scarlet Concubine of his desire!” (AL III:14).” (Source: https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/crowley-and-the-holy-books/page/2/#post-88735)

    #108724

    Tiger
    Participant

    PS Also, just where might Patrick Campbell/ Los come into it?

    a “taste” of Los from the link wellreadandgoodbread put up .

    “Now, sex magick is essentially the creation of “magic” using sex. Practitioners have the silly notion that sex can open doors to different planes; is the key to some kind of salvation; and usually believe that sex unlocks all manner of special powers. If we set aside all such nonsense, sex magick is simply another fetish or group of fetishes. Interestingly, in my experience, it is something that often attracts those with repressive histories around sex and sexuality.”
    – Inkhorn theme by PT Campbell –

    #108726

    ignant666
    Participant

    The tone is certainly similar, but i can’t recall He Who Is No Man ever mentioning sex in any way, shape, or form. I don’t think it’s Him.

    My guess is that PT Campbell might post here as MoogPlayer. This is based on the fact that i don’t think he is either Pope Hassle, or The Phallus Of A Goat, and surely there can’t be more than three of these “Septic Thelema” folks?!?!

    #108772

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Horemakhet: “‘Sex magick’ gave birth to ‘Thelema’, on every level …”

    Within his book Liber L. Vel Bogus – The Real Confession of Aleister Crowley, Richard T. Cole claims that Crowley’s ‘Cairo Revelation’ in 1904 pertained exclusively to Sex Magick:

    “… the Cairo Revelation pertained exclusively to his awareness of a new occult methodology, Sex Magick (“Sex Magick based on stele imagery (Cole page 232).”), and not [not is underlined by Cole] Liber L. vel Legis (= The Book of the Law), which isn’t even mentioned (Cole page 87).” […] “Precisely as is recorded in Crowley’s primary source notebooks, he left Cairo with only the occult ‘tool’ required to destroy Mathers. This is explicitly clear from two deleted comments, “the ritual is of sex” and “Revelation of ritual to consecrate talismans of XXII against G.’.D.’.” Only on completion of this precursor does Crowley get to form his own Magickal Link and, therefore, rightfully (in accordance with occult tradition) assume control of the Golden Dawn (Cole page 114, 115, and 178-182).”

    #108773

    ignant666
    Participant

    Would it be possible, wellreadwellbred, to set up a separate thread called something like “Crowley the lying fraud forged the fake AL” and confine your postings on that topic to that one thread, instead of posting such material in almost every thread on this forum?

    Your agenda is clear; it is equally clear that few agree with you.

    It becomes tedious when you insist on shoehorning this stuff into discussions of every arguably related topic.

    #108798

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    Richard T. Cole’s claim that Crowley’s ‘Cairo Revelation’ in 1904 pertained exclusively to Sex Magick, is relevant to this thread, as I started this thread with the question “Do you agree or disagree with the statement that Sex magick has nothing to do with Thelema, and why do you agree or disagree with this statement?”

    I disagree with the complicated and conspiratorial story used by Richard T. Cole in his book Liber L. Vel Bogus. A story used to “explain” why Crowley did not use some September 1907 galley proofs of an intended Appendix to his Collected Works (an appendix where the manuscript to The Book of the Law is described as “… a highly interesting example of genuine automatic writing.”).

    And a story used to “explain” why Crowley waited until the March 1912 puclication of Equinox I, 7, to premiere his reception story. (Second Corrected Edition of Cole’s said book page 183 and 189). “as delivered by LXXVIII [= 78] to DCLXVI [= 666]”, are words presented in the said Equinox edition as contained within “The full title of” this The Book of the Law. The same Equinox edition does with regard to the writing of this The Book of the Law, contain the following statement: “Fra. P. will only say that it is in no way automatic writing, that he heard clearly and distinctly the human articulate accents of a man.”

    The psychical researcher Thomson Jay Hudson did in a book published in 1893, titled The law of psychic phenomena: a working hypothesis for the systematic study of hypnotism, spiritism, mental therapeutics, etc., claim that no spirits are involved in automatic writing and the subconscious mind is the explanation.

    Crowley eventually deciding to insist on that his The Book of the Law was dictated to him by someone besides himself, and that it was in no way the result of automatic writing on his part, was a convenient way for him to deny taking personal responsibility for its content.

    A likely and obvious reason for this is that he was very scared for being outed as a practicing homosexual, at that time a criminal offence that had two years’ hard labour as the maximum sentence in England. And his The Book of the Law does quite openly advocate forbidden sex acts, for example in Chapter I, verse 51; “… take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! …”.

    Another example is his Liber 66, written Nov. 25, 1907, Liber Stellae Rubeae, containing Sexual Magick veiled in symbolism. The veiled passages of Liber 66 describe a sexual ritual with his current mistress, a woman by the name of Ada Leverson, whose name appears as an acronym of the first two lines:

    “Apep deifieth Asar. Let excellent virgins evoke rejoicing, son of Night!”

    By subtitling his Liber 66 as “delivered unto V.V.V.V.V.”, Crowley could deny taking personal responsibility for its content.

    More on why it would be convenient for Crowley that he could deny taking personal responsibility for the content of his Liber 66, Liber Stellae Rubeae: “LIBER STELLAE RUBEAE {WEH NOTE: The manner of sacrifice is veiled. This is a ritual of sexual sacrifice, not murder. There are suggestions that the sexual act involved both homosexual and heterosexual acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, hence it is characterized under a metaphor of “child sacrifice”. See also the Paris Working and Vision and Voice.}” (Source: http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no7/eqi07006.html)

    “12. Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.” “24. The best blood is of the moon, monthly: then the fresh blood of a child, […].” “25. This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. …” The preceding words quoted from his The Book of the Law (Chapter III, verse 12, 24, and 25), would make it convenient for Crowley that he could deny taking personal responsibility for the content of this book.

    #108800

    ignant666
    Participant

    Yes, we have read your posts, wrwb. They are all about the same thing, at least expressed here more clearly than usual.

    Thank you for your contribution.

    Nonetheless, i suggest you confine future posts on your sole topic to a single thread.

    How about “The lying liar Crowley, homosexual sodomite, and fake spiritual master, a fake and fraudulent fraud, forged the fake and phony AL” as a thread title?

    Would that about sum up your concerns with AC’s work?

    #108878

    wellreadwellbred
    Participant

    ignant666: “Would that about sum up your concerns with AC’s work?”

    No, in this thread I take into regard a larger cultural context with respect to Crowley’s claims that his The Book of the Law and his Liber 66 were delivered to him. And I am sympathetic to him as a practicing homosexual at that time, by pointing out that it would be convenient for Crowley that he could deny taking personal responsibility for the content of the said books. With respect to Liber 66 because “there are suggestions that the sexual act involved both homosexual and heterosexual acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, […]” (Source: http://www.the-equinox.org/vol1/no7/eqi07006.html) And with respect to The Book of the Law because it quite openly advocates sex acts illegal in England at the time of the writing, for example in Chapter I, verse 51; “… take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where and with whom ye will! …”.

    #108883

    ignant666
    Participant

    a practicing homosexual at that time [emphasis added]

    “Practicing” by that late date?

    Surely by then he’d had enough “practice” to get it right?

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