Home Forums Thanatos Austin Osman Spare Spare, the animal and karma.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 47 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #110245

    dom
    Participant

    I don’t think Spare ever spoke about karma in relation to his magic sigil spells. Is he considered to be a black magician therefore?

    Is his “atavistic” consciousness really Leary’s circuit 6 elevation?

    #110246

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    I don’t think Spare ever spoke about karma in relation to his magic sigil spells. Is he considered to be a black magician therefore?

    Considered by whom? Why do you consider that him not speaking about “karma” in connection with his sigillisation means that he is thereby a “black magician”? I just don’t understand your thinking in that respect.

    In his early days Spare used the term “karma” to denote archetypes or primal designs. There is a bookwork from 1905 which illustrates this, and which was published a few years ago in the book Two Grimoires (Starfire Publishing Ltd., London, 2011).

    Is his “atavistic” consciousness really Leary’s circuit 6 elevation?

    No. The core of Spare’s work is the Zos-Kia Cultus. The Kia is everything, the entire gamut of existence; atavisms surface from the Kia. So far as I understand it, the circuits are conceived as operating within the human nervous system. The range of the Kia, being everything, is far wider.

    #110247

    Shiva
    Participant

    KIA 20+10+1 = 31.

    #110248

    dom
    Participant

    I just don’t understand your thinking in that respect.

    Well he seemed to give himself free reign to do what he wants without recourse to his HGA. That is AC’s definition of black magic isn’t it?

    In his early days Spare used the term “karma” to denote archetypes or primal designs.

    So he didn’t know about the Hindustani concept of karma? What you’re saying has nothing to do with karmic penalties.

    No. The core of Spare’s work is the Zos-Kia Cultus. The Kia is everything, the entire gamut of existence; atavisms surface from the Kia. So far as I understand it, the circuits are conceived as operating within the human nervous system. The range of the Kia, being everything, is far wider.

    Ok.

    #110249

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    Well he seemed to give himself free reign to do what he wants without recourse to his HGA. That is AC’s definition of black magic isn’t it?

    Zos-Kia Cultus has no concept of a Holy Guardian Angel. Spare wouldn’t have had “recourse to his HGA”; I can’t recall coming across anything remotely like it in Spare’s work. Therefore Crowley’s “definition of black magic” is just completely irrelevent here. Just because Crowley says that it is so, doesn’t mean that it is indeed so

    You might as well say that Ramana Maharshi was a black magician because he acted “without recourse to his HGA”. Since many spiritual systems across the world seem to get along quite happily without a concept of the HGA, and thus without recourse to it, there’s clearly a hell of a lot of black magicians about.

    So he didn’t know about the Hindustani concept of karma? What you’re saying has nothing to do with karmic penalties.

    I know it doesn’t; I merely mentioned that use of the term ‘karma’ as a metter of interest. I’m sure that he would have come across the use of the term ‘karma’ in the sense of ‘karmic penalties’; I can’t, though, recall offhand where he used the term in the sense you mean.

    #110250

    dom
    Participant

    I know it doesn’t; I merely mentioned that use of the term ‘karma’ as a metter of interest. I’m sure that he would have come across the use of the term ‘karma’ in the sense of ‘karmic penalties’; I can’t, though, recall offhand where he used the term in the sense you mean.

    Yes that’s what I was asking. Thanks.

    By the way do you think Peter Carroll’s Psychonaut book is the best intro to Spare’s magical ideas?

    #110251

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    By the way do you think Peter Carroll’s Psychonaut book is the best intro to Spare’s magical ideas?

    No, I don’t. I think that Images & Oracles of Austin Osman Spare by Kenneth Grant is the best introduction. Grant came across Spare’s work in the early 1940s, met him in 1949, was his friend and collaborator until Spare’s death in 1956, discussed Spare’s work with him, typed up Spare’s manuscripts of his later work – work that was subsequently published in Zos Speaks!, and was left those manuscripts by Spare in his Will.

    In addition there are two excellent chapters in The Magical Revival, based on material from Grant’s unpublished study of Spare, ‘The Zoëtic Grimoire of Zos’, which he completed whilst Spare was still alive, and which Spare is on record as liking.

    #110254

    Shiva
    Participant

    D: You might as well say that Ramana Maharshi was a black magician because he acted “without recourse to his HGA”.

    It’s a funny thing, but a lot of those Oriental systems (including Buddhism, and probably Maharshism, don’t have the concept of an HGA or of a Higher Personal Self (HPS). According to Ramana, one simply sees Atma and then latches on to Atma and never let’s go.

    (Atma is the Universal Self, attributed to the Supernal Triad).

    This is similar to the first stage of the Primary Clear Light (PCL) as depicted in The Tibetan Book of the Dead. Those who die (or take a pharmaceutical), and fail to grasp the PCL immediately upin its appearance must then settle for second best and engage the Secondary Clear Light (SCL) in a dialog … this is the equivalent of the HGA. Those who miss the cosmic phone call then go to various forms of hallucination.

    Anyway, some Eastern folks skip the mental plane and go directly to “GO,” collecting 200 credits. After that, they can’t tell anyone how to get there, and they recommend Bhakti Yoga (devotion).

    The point is, some systems have no HGA involvement.

    #110255

    dom
    Participant

    @michael Staley

    No, I don’t. I think that Images & Oracles of Austin Osman Spare by Kenneth Grant is the best introduction

    I’m not talking about Spare’s intricate philosophy. I mean his practical magickal ideas specifically the alphabet of desire, the dualisms and the sigil making and launching. Surely you agree that PJ Carrol has done more to spread Spare’s ideas than anyone. Ok maybe he dumbed down/simplified and condensed Spare’s magickal philosophy but his Psychonaut seems to be a great introduction for the novice. He uses Spare’s idea of kia and basically appears to be Spare’s self-appointed modern emissary.

    @shiva

    very interesting the clear light of Tibetan Buddhism and their book of the dead and it’s ‘ring pass nots’ for the unprepared dead. Obviously the Egyptian book of the dead is analogous but how similar are they notwithstanding the different pantheons represented?

    Overall though (and with Jamie Barter’s recent ‘AC as black magician’ thread in mind) I state again that Spare seems to be encouraging the dismantling of karmic moral responsibility within practical magic. PJ Carrol certainly followed that up with his “belief as a tool” nihilism.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by  dom.
    #110258

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    I’m not talking about Spare’s philosophy. I mean his practical magickal ideas specifically the alphabet of desire, teh dualisms and the sigil making and launching. Surely you agree that PJ Carrol nailed that, maybe dumbed down and condensed Spare’s magickal philosophy into a great introduction for the novice in his his Psychonaut book?

    In my view sigillation, the Sacred Alphabet, Spare’s “practical magickal ideas”, etc., cannot be viewed in isolation from the rest of his work. I’ve read some of Pete Carrol’s work in the past, and it’s not something that enthuses me. Hence my considered opinion that Grant’s book is the best introduction. I don’t agree that Carrol “nailed that”, but if you think so then fine.

    Overall though . . . I state again that Spare seems to be encouraging the dismantling of karmic moral responsibility within practical magic.

    How so? Perhaps you could give some examples of Spare “encouraging the dismantling of karmic moral responsibility within practical magic”?

    #110260

    dom
    Participant

    @michael Staley

    How so? Perhaps you could give some examples of Spare “encouraging the dismantling of karmic moral responsibility within practical magic”?

    By Sigils I have endowed fools with wisdom, made the wise fools, giving health to the sick and weak, disease to the strong, etc. Now, if for some purpose, you wanted the strength of a tiger- you would make a sentence such as:- “This my wish to obtain the strength of a tiger.

    ~ The Book of Pleasure (self-love)

    #110261

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    By Sigils I have endowed fools with wisdom, made the wise fools, giving health to the sick and weak, disease to the strong, etc. Now, if for some purpose, you wanted the strength of a tiger- you would make a sentence such as:- “This my wish to obtain the strength of a tiger.

    OK, before continuing with this could you please clarify what you mean by “direct karmic responsibity” I think I know what you mean, but it’s as well to be sure that we’re on the same page, as they say.

    #110262

    dom
    Participant

    OK, before continuing with this could you please clarify what you mean by “direct karmic responsibity” I think I know what you mean, but it’s as well to be sure that we’re on the same page, as they say.

    Well AC espoused checking in with the HGA before we e.g. hurt another via magick. You were part of Jamie Barter’s recent thread where AC’s apparent selfish cursing was exposed as reneging upon his own advice. AOS in the recent quote I produced seems to espouse hurting people via sigils doesn’t it? I’ll repeat but he does not mention warnings about karma for such activity. What does that tell you/

    For the record I think that AOS will someday be viewed as one of Britain’s greatest artists ever.

    #110263

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    Well AC espoused checking in with the HGA before we e.g. hurt another via magick.

    How might one go about “checking in with the HGA”? What’s your suggestion here to get approval or otherwise from the HGA?.

    Assuming that Crowley had a method of “checking in with the HGA”, how do you know whether or not he had a little chat with the old fella before his “apparent selfish cursing”? Your use of the term “exposed” implies it was proved that Crowley dispensed with his little chat with the old fella, or even worse – ignored his judgement. So how was that ascertained? Did someone beat a confession out of Crowley. Or did a trembling, remorseful Crowley leave a confession?

    I might perform an act of apparent black magic. Let’s say that I fancy someone’s girlfriend, and thus by an act of magic I wipe him out, thu s leaving the field clear for me to exercise my irresistable charms. Thus far, then, the weight of my “direct karmic responsibility” is threatening to crush me. But wait! It later turns out that the man was a serial killer. So now, my “direct karmic responsibility” has not only been expunged, but I’m massively in credit. It’s a funny old world.

    An extreme example, I know, but it does illustrate a point, which is that actions breed reactions and subsequent actions in ways we can’t imagine. An apparently “evil” act can have “good” consequences.

    #110264

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    For the record I think that AOS will someday be viewed as one of Britain’s greatest artists ever.

    Incidentally, I’m very pleased to read that, dom. So do I. I love his diversity of styles. My very favourites are the pastels from 1954 and 1955. Wonderfully imaginative, and the skill to express it so well.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 47 total)
  • You must be logged-in to reply to this topic.