Temple Ov Psychick Youth an abusive cult?
A very interesting, quite long, rather detailed article arguing that TOPY was an abusive cult:
Worth a read.
Yeah freedom fighters are always portrayed in a bad light aren't they? I hear that Spanish anarchists during the civil war executed a fare amount of Catholic priests.
You in the politics thread said that Robespierre tried to protect Danton. I don't see how ordering a decree to have someone murdered is 'trying to protect them' but y'know we see what we want I guess.
Me? Give me both sides of the story first.
Well, here at least, it is fellow "freedom fighters" doing the "portraying in a bad light".
The main accusers are Cosey Fanni Tutti, GPO's longterm girlfriend and TG member, Peter "Sleazy" Christopherson of TG (in other words all of TG except Chris Carter and GPO) and TOPY, John Balance of TOPY and Coil, and David Tibet of TOPY and Coil, as well as other TOPY, and COUM Transmissions members. There are extensive (and damning) quotations from GPO's writings.
Money quote from David Tibet: "...[C]haos magick [is] a lot of shit … if all these magicians are so great and powerful, why are they all so broke and don't have girlfriends?" (Keenan 2016: 305).
Maybe read the article before sticking up for GPO?
I am surprised that a Thelemite would think of executing Catholic priests as a bad thing- many altar-boys might disagree.
Robespierre. Danton. Who was the bad guy? Shit happens amongst anarchists. It's war.
Maybe read the article before sticking up for GPO?
I did go through it. Reminded me of the pathetic media axe-grinding slanging matches between Ace Frehley and Simmons and Stanley. Laughable.
As for the OP question. I assume that hundreds of people were in T.O.P.Y. not long after it's inception. Where are their complaints?
david: I don't recall the members of Kiss accusing each other of running a mind-control cult, murder attempts, or multiple rapes, but maybe i've missed those.
So accusations from all the founders of TOPY not named GPO that it was an abusive brainwashing cult, and the same accusations from a 13 year old (when he joined TOPY) TPOY member, aren't enough? Nor is hearing what Cosey has to say about GPO?
Sounds like literally nothing would convince you that your hero GPO is not a saint and wonderful person.
How about the claim by Tibet and Balance that they, and not GPO, were responsible for most of the TOPY "magick", and that "chaos magick [is] a lot of shit …"?
I had never heard that that either Robespierre or Danton were TOPY members. Pretty sure this is wrong since they died a couple years before 1981.
Sounds almost like thread derailment/changing the subject to avoid defending stuff that is pretty tough to defend.
And it is of course just another puzzle piece in the complicated matter of "can you enjoy/like/defend/etc. "great" art made by "bad" (at least in retrospective and at least at times) people?"
Kevin Spacey, Wagner, Roman Polanski, Woody Allen (though un-substantiated) come to mind, but of course Crowley is another perfect example.
I love a lot of GOPs work, but I was always under the impression that all this legal threats after h/er TOPY time shone some fishy light on h/er. Hope I never have to regret my Psychic Cross tattoo...
ignant666: "Money quote from David Tibet: “…[C]haos magick [is] a lot of shit … if all these magicians are so great and powerful, why are they all so broke and don’t have girlfriends?” (Keenan 2016: 305)."
As it says in the scriptures ("A.'. A.'. Publication in Class A."):
"0. In the name of the Lord of Initiation, Amen. [...] 25. The weak, the timid, the imperfect, the cowardly, the poor, the tearful --- these are mine enemies, and I am come to destroy them. [...] 31. Also I give you power earthly and joy earthly; wealth, and health, and length of days. Adoration and love shall cling to your feet, and twine around your heart. [...] 44. They [= my adepts] shall be masters of majesty and might; they shall be beautiful and joyous; they shall be clothed with victory and splendour; they shall stand upon the firm foundation; the kingdom shall be theirs; yea, the kingdom shall be theirs. In the name of the Lord of Initiation. Amen." (Source: Liber 90)
"Chapter II [...] 18. [...] We are not for the poor and sad: the lords of the earth are our kinsfolk. [...] 19. [...] who sorroweth is not of us. [...] "21. We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. ...." [...] 58. [...] a beggar cannot hide his poverty. [...] Chapter III [...] 46. [...] ye shall delight to slay. Success is your proof; courage is your armour; go on, go on, in my strength; & ye shall turn not back for any! [...] 57. Despise also all cowards; professional soldiers who dare not fight, but play; all fools despise!" (Source: Liber 220)
"... it is of course just another puzzle piece in the complicated matter of “can you enjoy/like/defend/etc. “great” art made by “bad” (at least in retrospective and at least at times) people?” [...] Crowley is a [...] perfect example."
As it says in the scriptures (“A.’. A.’. Publication in Class A.”): "Chapter III [...] 57. [...] all fools despise!” (Source: Liber 220).
That is, acceptance of a Class A text, does not rule out despising the person AC as a fool.
Who is the OP directed at? I wasn't there I wouldn't know. I was never GPO's mate. Maybe he was abusive maybe he wasn't. If we had his side of the stories then yeah it would be more of a balanced argument wouldn't it? I don't even know who David Tibet is. Sounds like an 80s politically correct Comic Strip Club comedian.
What about Bill Crosby or Harvey Weinstein? When enough victims present an official case then yeah it looks convincing.
The OP isn't "directed at" anyone. GPO and TOPY have often been discussed here, and i thought the article might be of interest to some here, so i posted it.
It is very hard for me to believe that you as a big Boyd Rice fan, and big Throbbing Gristle fan, have never heard of David Tibet.
David Tibet is a rather famous ex-Thelemite, and current Roman Catholic, who serves on the (c)OTO's "International Cabinet". He was an early member of the band Psychic TV, one of the earliest members to join TOPY, and one of the first to leave.
After leaving TOPY, he founded the rather famous band Current 93. i mistakenly said he was in Coil above.
But then you'd know all that if you'd actually read the article i posted, the article you were so quick to dismiss as "[l]aughable", the article that you clearly have not, in fact, bothered to read.
Yeah I have heard the name Tibet here and there but probably checked out his band and dismissed it as drivel.
Yeah Cosy seemed ok in doing a reunion tour with GPO. However I see that Weinstein is name-checked in that article so we have a similar situation...well, sort of. Like I said we need GPO's side of the story imo. For example Ike said Tina Turner used to batter him. We don't know we weren't there and having an opinion either way is pointless bullshit until we have a lot of info and both sides are presented.
We have GPO's side (again, in the article you still haven't bothered to read): "whatever sells a book, sells a book." In other words, he is calling her a liar. Perhaps you have heard that people who have done awful things don't always tell the truth about doing those things?
However I see that Weinstein is name-checked in that article so we have a similar situation…well, sort of.
Huh? Unless my search function is somehow malfunctioning, the text string "Weinstein" does not occur in the article. I suspect that because you haven't bothered to read the article, you figured they just had to mention the notorious Harvey Weinstein case, but it took me a while to figure out what you were on about since i have actually read the article, which is about abuse by a countercultural figure, and very much framed around the concept of counterculture. i don't think anyone would think of Harvey Weinstein as a countercultural figure.
I would agree with you that GPO's claim that Cosey is lying about his horrible, criminal abuse of her is about as credible as Ike Turner's claim that Tina beat him.
(But I suspect they’re not Adepti Majori).
and that's what it comes down to. Why do you say that?
GPO banned the TOPY even though a lot of members had made friendships and wanted to keep it going. I always found it off that he allegedly wanted to take legal action against them to the point where they changed the name to A.I.N.
Weinstein/MeToo Movement what's the diff? See first couple of paragraphs. I see Gira gets namechecked.
Yeah GPO sounds like an asshole doesn't he? Does that mean we should dismiss the methods and philosophy of the TOPY?
No, we should dismiss the methods and philosophy of TOPY because they are/were stupid. Glad you finally read the article and that now we agree that GPO is a narcissistic toad of a person. Maybe soon yo will realize he made/makes shit records?
Further, the only discernible "philosophy" of TOPY was "Genesis is always right; never mind that he [GPO was definitely still "he" at that time] said something different last week; ALL MUST OBEY!"
I don't even know who David Tibet is.
... Just two hours and nine minutes later:
Yeah I have heard the name Tibet here and there
I assume that hundreds of people were in T.O.P.Y. not long after it’s inception.
For such a grammar pedant (I won't use 'nazi', which was the rather emotive term you came up with yourself) it's rather surprising that you should make such a rookie mistake with your aberrant apostrophe. The proverb 'people in glass houses shouldn't hurl boulders' springs to mind for some unaccountable reason...
Where are their complaints?
The unremitting mis-use ov "of" and "the" throughout TOPY's literature, for starters...
I know Gerald Suster and Lionel Snell both seemed very interested in looking into TOPY further in the '80s, and for a while corresponded with one of the "Edens" in (Temple Press?) publishing in Brighton who came across as pretty intelligent and "normal" himself; but to possibly save his embarrassment I can't recall his name to sing his individual praise further. However (to be proverbial once again), one swallow doesn't make a summer. One of the things which put people off engaging with TOPY big time I thought (including me), was their requirement for prospective newbies to give them samples of their hair, nail clippings and a selection of some of their er, precious bodily fluids. To tie this into the original topic behind the thread: such a basis would of course form the possibility of a most powerful magical link and be wide open to abuse if such specimens somehow fell into the wrong hands in the future (or even the same hands but with a suddenly wrong motivation working behind them).
Defying the IT glitches to vanish again,
For such a grammar pedant (I won’t use ‘nazi’, which was the rather emotive term you came up with yourself) it’s rather surprising that [david] should make such a rookie mistake with your aberrant apostrophe.
Huh? david is without a doubt the sloppiest and most careless poster who shows up regularly. Since when has he been a "grammar pedant/Nazi"?
I realize david is protean (a polite way to say "wildly inconsistent in his views"), but surely one must attain a certain level of proofreading before receiving this accolade?
d: Why do you say that?
I said, "I suspect they're not Adepti," because I have a suspicion. Suspicion is 90% of the Law. The Will part is 100%.
d: Does that mean we should dismiss the methods and philosophy of the TOPY?
No. It would be wise to dismiss the methodology and the philosophy of a terminated extravaganza. The survivors chose AIN (61 those Hebrew folks call it). A good choice; a good reference point for any and all phenomena.
Ig: No, we should dismiss the methods and philosophy of TOPY because they are/were stupid.
Oh, poop! I could have saved myself a lot of typing if I'd only read all the responses on this busy morn before posting. I also use machinery and tools before reading the safety warnings in the User Manuals.
ig: Further, the only discernible “philosophy” of TOPY was “Genesis is always right
Oh, no! This echos Solar Lodge, Cefalu, and Papal infallibility. Is there no hope for the wandering aspirant?
JB: ... their requirement for prospective newbies to give them samples of their hair, nail clippings and a selection of some of their er, precious bodily fluids.
Arrghh! Who would be foolish enough to render these valuable links unto such a Temple that misspells words?
@jamiebarter and ignant
If you want rational check out the part of this thread where Ignant says it's ok (especially for Thelemites) to murder Roman Catholic priests because they are all paedophiles!?!
What? Pretty extreme huh? Not even GPO encouraged such action.
That's rational isn't it? Did you consider that people here may have priests and nuns in their family or friendship circles?
This was what is known as a "joke", david, in response to your attempts to derail this thread into "Return Of The Son Of 'Politics Thread'".
The Roman Catholic Church is unquestionably a principle component of The Black Lodge, and is probably responsible for more killing and human misery than any other organization in history, making Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, and Mao look like amateurs. The Vatican, and Spanish and Portuguese churches, are filled with gold looted from the Americas, drenched in the blood of Indian genocide and slavery.
The Pope and the Church was/were a key supporter and enabler of Hitler, Mussolini, and the other Fascist parties around the world in the 1920s-30s. Thus the Republican's attacks (certainly not only the Anarchist Republican troops) on churches and priests during the Spanish Civil War, since the church was on the side of the rebel Fascists, and many priests took an active role. Should they have gotten a free pass for their Fascist activities because they wore dresses and dog collars?
The Church continues to advocate repressive sexual morality, the subjugation of women, and the repression of male homosexuals who are not members of the Church hierarchy. It is also a world-wide criminal conspiracy to enable and cover up pedophilia.
If you have Roman Catholic priests or nuns as friends, you are hanging out with those who perpetuate the Black Lodge and Old Aeon; break off those friendships. If they are family members, this is a tougher call.
This was what is known as a “joke”, david, in response to your attempts to derail this thread into “Return Of The Son Of ‘Politics Thread'”
Not a thread-derailment at all, after all your OP and that article with the alleged crimes of GPO is totally political ie y'know people trying to work together on some project and subsequently quarrelling, disagreeing and arguing like idiots. GPO was always a political creature involved in setting up Young Socialist organizations I believe. TOPY was born out of disappointment with the hierarchies of traditional magical orders and their inevitable back-stabbing quarrels and cliques and etc etc. Maybe you should read up on the values and aims of the Temple. Hardly a 'cult' if anything a 'mock cult'and with solid anarchic intentions. A lot of people have gripes anywhere. That article smacks of weakness. TOPY was an experiment y'know like the Spanish Anarchists or like the break-away groups in The Paris Commune.
You know about law, right? Any stories about crimes are alleged until the case is brought through the courts otherwise any twat could say anything about anyone with dire consequences which is what happens in countries in the Middle East and the authoritarian regimes of Europe in the twentieth century and the corrupt autocracies that they were derived from.
If you want to revive the politics thread, give it a shot, though i think Paul will shut you down with the quickness. Not discussing politics with you in this thread, sorry.
If you would like to defend GPO/TOPY, go for it. What are those "values and aims"? Tell us about them!
If the goal of TOPY was to avoid "inevitable back-stabbing quarrels and cliques and etc etc.", they were a dismal failure, since they lasted about a decade before collapsing under the burden of GPO's immense ego.
If you imagine the things i said about the Roman Catholic Church are incorrect, you once again reveal your ignorance of history. They were of course one of the principal supporters of "the authoritarian regimes of Europe in the twentieth century" (other than the USSR, if they count as European despite the vast majority of the country not being in Europe), and THE principal supporter of "the corrupt autocracies that they were derived from."
They were of course one of the principal supporters of “the authoritarian regimes of Europe in the twentieth century”
Well yeah I am well aware that in the main the Spanish R.C. Church backed Franco. Likewise of course the R.C. bolstered 'divine right' autocracies and is still a force for conservative backwardness and would not like my book collection but not all officials are totally conservative and backward.
If you say so you display binary either/or thinking. Priests were not liked by Hitler. How about the Bishop of Munster and if you don't know who he was then here you go; https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2016/08/03/the-lion-of-munster/
How about the priests of the I.R.A.? The priests who help drug-addicts and wayward kids in e.g. New York? The priests and nuns working hard all over the poverty-zones and trouble- spots of the world who help to back forces e.g.such as The Sandinista and use their position to make a public stand against brutal right- wing reactionary movements etc etc? Yeah all Catholic priests are oppressive and do no good whatsoever. Unbalanced and nonsense basically.
Speaking of balance here's a quote from Crowley's Liber Libræ sub figurâ XXX - The Book of the Balance;
6. Be not hasty to condemn others; how knowest thou that in their place, thou couldest have resisted the temptation? And even were it so, why shouldst thou despise one who is weaker than thyself?
21. In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme יהוה and in Osiris יהשוה. Ask and ye shall have! Seek, and ye shall find! Knock, and it shall be opened unto you!
Furthermore I'm sure Paul would tell you that this forum is open to all denominations and does not discriminate.
Anyway obviously you love that TOPY-bashing article which let's face it is biased. Here's a great example-sample from it;
, TOPY's leadership designed and enforced deliberate protocols to scrub out individual attributes, blot away intimate idiosyncrasies, and gloss over the contours of identity that render us recognizable to ourselves and one another. One such policy involved the replacement of disciple's names with gender labels and numbers. All women were titled "KALI" and all men "EDEN", with a corresponding numeral reflecting their order of arrival into the TOPY fold, e.g. KALI 68 or EDEN 44.
That is a crock of shit. If anything it was the contrary. Giving numbers to members was a show of union. The Kali label was pure feminism. If you don't know about Kali do some research. The women of TOPY and AIN proudly identify with said Hindu Goddess who is often portrayed wearing a necklace of men's decapitated heads!! Similarly I've heard idiots who actually accuse Crowley of using Liber Jugorum as a Mansonesque control-technique at Cefalu!! Laughable. Small minds cannot handle big ideas.
The following youtube lecture is by a Swedish guy who was heavily involved in the administration of TOPY in the 80s and beyond. I'll be frank he hasn't got one bad word to say about TOPY and his time involved in it. He loved it!
At 3m30s onwards he presents a different view to your biased article on why TOPY ended. Simply put people just felt it had naturally burned out and went on to new things.
At 8m20s this he explains how TOPY was a meritocracy and had no hierarchies.
Apparently there will be a movie about TOPY. Hopefully then all of the ex Edens/Coyotes and Kalis will come out of the woodwork and present their own views and we can make a better overall holistic assessment.
For such a grammar pedant (I won’t use ‘nazi’, which was the rather emotive term you came up with yourself) it’s rather surprising that you should make such a rookie mistake with your aberrant apostrophe. The proverb ‘people in glass houses shouldn’t hurl boulders’ springs to mind for some unaccountable reason…
What are you talking about?
It is not "my" article, david. It is an article that quotes almost every close collaborator of GPO's, including founding members of PTV/TOPY. Are they all "biased" too?
As to the Roman Catholic Church, we get it- you are a fan. FYI, in being a "wayward kid" in NYC myself for many years, and then later in more than 20 years working with "drug-addicts and wayward kids" in NYC, i never encountered a Catholic priest or nun.
No more ignored than any other videos posted here, david, if you are speaking to me. I don't often watch videos of people talking; i like to read.
If you can find some written sources defending GPO and TOPY, please link to them.
One has to wonder how much contact a Swedish disciple may have had with Pope Genesis, and the Brighton HQ.
Your vague anecdote about some news story you read that one time clearly absolves the Catholic Church for all the pedophilia, support of genocide, support of authoritarianism, etc. etc. etc. etc.
You dig authority (Catholics, Tories, GPO, etc.), OK, we get it. Some don't.
....and so on and so forth. Yeah i thought you would ignore my other points about priests
nuns and the Sandinista etc.
Do you think Cosy's abuse allegation would stand up in a court considering she was a loyal comrade in recent Gristle reunion tours?
Since she hasn't brought them into court, and most likely couldn't because of statutes of limitations, what does that have to do with anything? Do i believe her? Yes, absolutely, since her accusations are entirely consistent with everything GPO has presented publicly as their "art."
Hard, i know, to believe that someone who idolized Manson, the Moors Murderers, Jim Jones, and The Process, and is best pals with all the edgelord Nazis of industrial music (Rice, Pearce, etc.), and who thinks "transgression" is the coolest, would ever possibly do bad things or want to lead a brainwashing cult.
As to your Roman Catholic fanboyism: i hear it's their guy's birthday soon- maybe post an appeal for donations to the Catholic charities you support, to see if your fellow lashtalians want to kick in, or even match your own no doubt generous donations?
I had an idea you were besmirching GPO due to his association with Rice the guy you love to hate.
Yes, absolutely, since her accusations are entirely consistent with everything GPO has presented publicly as their “art.”
Hard, i know, to believe that someone who idolized Manson, the Moors Murderers, Jim Jones,
Lyrics at 2m50s
"movin' and groovin' like The Son of Sam. Splish splash I was Jim Jones".
Brainwashing? What type of hold do you have over Jamie Barter et al? They back you up when you expose my apparent inconsistencies but here we have a silly statement by you why you think GPO is an attempted murderer yet I'm sure Barter will remain silent about it.
I don't "love to hate" your man Boyd especially, nor Doug P., any more than i hate any other Nazi- maybe ask your grandparents about this, in case you are unclear about why folks hate Nazis? The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi- all of them.
GPO is profoundly creepy, like a human toad, obsessed with his own ego and "artistic genius", who has spent his life producing repugnant art and, apparently from almost all who've known him, doing repugnant things. If i thought he had ever attained in any way, i would not hesitate to put him down as a Black Brother; he is an aspirant to the Black Lodge.
The ridiculously contrived pronouns aren't something i am willing to use- more "look at me! i am so edgy!"
At least GPO isn't, as far as i know, a Nazi, despite considerable flirtation with "edgy" Nazi imagery and concepts (though those TOPY uniforms are a bit, ummm, questionable).
Attempting to become a "pandrogyne", and ending up looking like an uglier Marlon Brando, is a fitting fate for this posing twat. Lots of fat elderly men have tits without even having to pay for surgery or taking the hormones (which he has very evidently stopped).
A phrase often used by an obscure English poet and mountain-climber of the late 19th-early 20th centuries. Not at all surprised that you are unfamiliar with it.
While i am not here to do your research for you, see, among many other places, p. 72, Magick Without Tears, in the first paragraph of chapter 7, "the Three Schools Of Magick (2)".
For 12 more uses of this phrase in the works of AC, see
Pretty sure it comes up in the Hag too, which you have read hundreds of times.
Re-read paragraph one, P. 72, MWOT, and the other uses by AC i linked. I mean by "Black Lodge" what he meant.
Nice try at "of course i know this stuff, better than you in fact", after claiming never to have heard of that "ooky-spooky" Lovecraftesque phrase two posts ago.
Or another way of putting it: 47 minutes ago.
You never cease to amaze, i will give you that. At least your ex-Goo-
Roo Dr. S.'. H.'. Fra. Los, 8=3, PhD was sort of good at this sort of thing.
No mate i came back after i read that link which jogged my memory about the black, yellow and white .
It's not rocket science. Schmucks get down on themselves when disappointments kick in. The non white schools get it wrong due to having no common sense so they end up stuck away in celibacy in some monastery wearing an orange robe or talking incessant bullshit about Deuteronomy this or Leviticus that. The nuns of such schools are unlikely to be seen dancing on the tables of your local bar on a Saturday night.
However some who get this revelation go wrong by becoming self-styled magic teachers and egotistical sorcery-wielding control-freaks like GPO.
To help you get clear that the Black School and the Black Lodge ARE NOT THE SAME THING, here is the very brief paragraph i have cited twice and provided a link to in case you did not have a copy of MWOT handy:
Hoping that you are now recovered from the devastating revelations in the matter of the Yellow School, I must ask you to brace yourself for disclosures even more formidable about the Black [School]. Do not confuse with the Black Lodge, or the Black Brothers. The terminology is unfortunate, but it wasn't I that did it. Now then, to work!
You are also deeply confused as to the three schools, and the use of "non-white schools" is unpleasant. Please review the three chapters on the three schools in MWOT before embarrassing yourself further.
So you now agree that GPO is a "self-styled magic teacher... and egotistical sorcery-wielding control-freak..."?
"Holy rapid about-faces, Batman!" quoth the Boy Wonder.
Sorry Black 'Lodge' not 'school' yes.
GPO is a “self-styled magic teacher… and egotistical sorcery-wielding control-freak…”?
The thought occurred to me years ago that GPO may be some sort of Black Lodge figure. If so he may've fooled R.A.Wilson who appeared to have collaborated with him, well, in interviews about A.C. anyway. I was never a Gristle fan. I literally could accurately describe any track by them. The OP though is not 'GPO abusive guy'? It is 'TOPY abusive cult?'. I was defending the latter.
I heard about GPO allegedly threatening to sue TOPY when folk who had made friendships via TOPY and wanted it to continue. Like I said that is not conducive to Thelema.
Since "abusive" GPO was the unquestionable, infallible Pope of TOPY: huh?
If the head of the lodge is "some sort of Black Lodge figure", what sort of lodge might we expect it to be? Hmmm?
Or are you saying that the contributions of Tibet and Balance (before they quit because they saw TOPY as an abusive mind-control cult) were so substantive that the TOPY teachings/practices (that they say they, and not GPO, created) somehow outweighed the repellent person at the helm?
Any other Black Lodge known repugnant artist/self-styled occult guru contenders apart from Rice and GPO?
LaVey and daughter and her boyfriend? CoS in general? PJ Carroll?
Marilyn Manson who said that Rice is his 'mentor'?
I don't know about LaVey but the common experience of all these guys is they were bullied heavily in school for being different.
Almost forgot the kill me/fill me crew.
Ignant you seem to be able identify these guys based on their physical features also.
they were bullied heavily in school for being different.
Who wasn't? i certainly was, until i got big and learned to be dangerous.
Ignant you seem to be able identify these guys based on their physical features also.
Well, of course- can't you? Pay particular attention to the eyes. Some can see auras- i can't, but reach similar results despite this.