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  • #113693

    henrypearce
    Participant

    Faith, belief and hope. It makes for a rather glum and impotent human without ’em. 😉

    I am more Thelemite than Christian, and I don’t want to start a fruitless online debate, but from Hillel to Dashwood to the Crowleys, what might we all have in common?:

    “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.Love is the law, love under will“.
    “Do not unto others that which is hateful unto thee.”
    “Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.”
    “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
    “Do not do unto others as you would that they would do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same.” G.B. Shaw.
    “What is will without love?” H.P.

    I get there is no love lost between Amado and anybody here. There’s no point in debating whether he was Aleister’s heir or not. As Marshall McLuhan said, “the medium is the message”. The platform we are meeting on is relatively one dimensional. Being in the presence of a Master medium is an altogether different framework. And it’s too late. The old boy is dead.

    What tends to happen in this medium is that everybody becomes characterised, they become a sort of avatar, a spiritless representation of the real thing. So it becomes easier to hone in on differences, as easily to fall into as the rest of the internet, rife with personality assassins and trolls.

    And there’s something that puts one in mind of Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange and their relationship with the Guardian happening here: an Anonymous ‘hacker’ publishes his scoop, “So-called Master’s unremarkable, if not mundane life”, but without some sensitivity to redacting. The wife I heard Amado talk about was someone he never stopped loving. How might that woman feel if people with axes to grind start appearing on her doorstep? Just saying. We are all human. And she would be innocent, having pretty well nothing to do with her husband after so many years. Perhaps Anonymous is another disgruntled ex-student, looking for an avenue for their resentiment – just another victim of the virus that currently infects the internet.

    So Barbara, I have to ask, forgive me – I can’t guess your motives, but just why is it that you have dug up the past here? Why are you here? You really should no better than to try to prosthetise here, especially given what you should know about occultists. Coercion and attempts at conversion, just aint gonna cut it … even if you might think you’ve been sent by God to save us. It reduces Christianity to the level of Scientologists and Hare Krisna’s. You have to ask was someone knocking at your door. Or are you trying to curry favour with people you can’t possibly convert? Why? How naive it is to think we can change anybody.

    That aside, isn’t the prime drive of a Christian to forgive? After how many decades have you brought this up? Couldn’t you have forgiven and forgotten by now? Or are you trying to save others? I looked up #Metoo and it’s hardly run riot, reflecting any complaints that have come from the observations/interpretations/insinuations you’ve made. In a small house a man’s bedroom might also be an office. I only slept in his bed once … when he wasn’t there. He also slept in mine … while I slept on the coach. Apart from which, what happens between the bishop and the consenting actress is between them, isn’t it? Shouldn’t we give a man the benefit of the doubt? How much should an infant know about why mum and dad are in the shower together? Well, they might be conserving water, right?

    You shared a house with a man – who you knew for around a year – who is now dead. Don’t Christians leave the dead resting in peace? Shouldn’t judgment be left to another arbiter? Or have you been delegated the job? Again, forgive me, you seem to have good intentions, but it doesn’t seem consistent with the Christian ethic of forgive and forget … unless your more into the Old Testament God. Or is it you’re having an attack of Augustin-itis, regretting your sordid pagan past in the sunblinding light of the Lord?

    So, forgive me for asking a couple of possibly uncomfortable questions: why is it that you are knocking here?

    Assange tells us that once something in on the internet it is there forever. Alright, till Götterdämmerung perhaps. That’s what’s drawn me here. Because in the whole broad sweep of the internet this is one of the very few places where anything is currently being said about the man, Master or not.

    Lets just make a little hypothesis, say: I am now an ex student. We had our differences. We fell out. He hurt my feelings. He left me deluded. What could I possibly gain now? After ten years, I’ve moved on. Should possibly have moved on more. But I have to say something about a man who, as far as I could see, was only ever trying to help at the very least. If there’s little illumination on him and his teachings, so few have anything actually bad to say. And nearly all have respected his private life, which is nothing less than what any of us deserve. Anonymity is preferable to insinuation or slander once we have shuffled off this mortal coil. We all deserve dignity. Ask not for whom the bell tolls …

    So, that’s my justification for being here. I am not interested in discussing theosophy, theology or phrenology over as cumbersome a media as this when so much more could be said with the twinkle of an eye of a touch or a sigh. But I will stick up for an old friend. The old man’s been dead for nearly ten years. I can’t see why anyone is in the least interested in his personal life.

    But what’s done is done as the Bard says, and cannot be undone. So rather than raking up the past, shouldn’t we be keeping our eyes on the horizon?

    #113699

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @henrypearce

    I get there is no love lost between Amado and anybody here.

    I don’t think that’s true. I have respect for Amado as someone whose work interested me at a specific time in my life.

    I think your questioning of Barbara is a little over the top. Why shouldn’t she be here? She’s not proselytizing so far as I can see; there’s no coersion, no attempts to convert. I don’t have to justify my presence here; nor does she, you, nor anybody else.

    #113701

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @henryperce :

    The old man’s been dead for nearly ten years. I can’t see why anyone is in the least interested in his personal life.

    Why is anyone interested in anyone’s personal life at all, come to that? The bookshops are filled with biographies of famous people, politicians, film and rock stars… People do care about what Churchill, Crowley, Charlie Chaplin got up to nonetheless, for reasons of simple curiosity if no more nobler motive. If “Amado” had just kept himself to himself — not made any grandiose claims, never set himself up as a master/ something he wasn’t or someone with a message to convey, that would be a different matter. But he was demonstrably unable to prove what he said while still alive, and by doing all that he rather abdicates any claims to privacy from people who would simply like to get to the truth of the matter, wouldn’t you say? And there’s no harm in that, especially if he’s dead and can’t be embarrassed by anything which may come to light. In point of fact, he would probably be flattered by all the posthumous interest, as that does at least validate his existence in some way.
    Perhaps it might have been a different story with you if Amado had managed to cover himself with glory?

    @barbaragreen :

    Hell-oh to you! I’d be absolutely amazed if you succeeded in managing to ‘convert’ anybody here — did you know Thelemites are not encouraged to convert anyone to their point of view, incidentally? An interesting distinction with Christianity. You wrote that you believed people become resurrected rather than reincarnated — I’m curious, at what stage of their lives would they ‘come back’ as? Rather unfortunate, if they’d happened to pass away because of some wasting disease…

    I believe in nothing; everything is ruled by King Pure Chance (as in, The Book of Lies, Chapter 22)

    Exactly half-jokingly yours,
    N Joy

    #113704

    Shiva
    Participant

    hp: Faith, belief and hope. It makes for a rather glum and impotent human without ’em.

    Yo appear to be writing about Wishful Thinking. There is a fine line, which becomes wider, between the two types of faith. First, there is “blind faith,” which involves thinking something is true, or will happen, and is established by the priest, the rabbi, the rev, the teacher, or the parents.

    The second type, outlined correctly by ChriS (above, somewhere, recently), is based on experience. For example, if one somehow has gotten into The Vision of Adonai, aka the Holy Guardian Angel or the Solar Angel, which is the prime requirement for attaining to 1=10 status (not some ceremony performed by others, which is an attempt to duplicate the natural process by humans), that Vision will surely pass away. But the Neophyte is reinforced by that Vision, and (parts of) that experience are stored in his or her memory banks. A characteristic of the first initiation, called Pyramidos, or Throa, or The Birth of the Christ in the Cave of the Heart [a long title, indeed], is that the initiate knows, without a shadow of doubt, that something is there, and they are connected to it.

    Maybe that was too long as an example, what with so many (deviations). Simply put, There is Blind Faith and there is Knowing Faith. Religious orgs and political govs want their followers and subjects to engage in Blind Faith. Individual initiates rely on a Knowing faith, and soon learn to mistrust Blind Faith.

    This (all of the above) is a description of what happens at the first degree in any, and every, religious system and spiritual curriculum.

    hp: the Christian ethic of forgive and forget

    Is this the same “ethic” that launched many Crusades? The same crusade that is still raging in Middle-Eastern Earth today? Or is it the “ethic” that ruled over the Inquisition?

    hp: But what’s done is done as the Bard says, and cannot be undone.

    The Bard was wrong. What was done must be undone. That’s what The Law of Karma and The Spiritual Path involve: Redressing karma in order to arrive at Zero (Balance).

    hp: So rather than raking up the past, shouldn’t we be keeping our eyes on the horizon?

    What happened to Be Here Now? “Look at all the people, living for today. Nothing to live or die for …” (Beatles).

    ms: I don’t have to justify my presence here; nor does she, you, nor anybody else.

    Right on!

    #113705

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @barbaragreen

    Michael Staley: My question is: did Mike give you a reason he didn’t want you to go [to a kibbutz]?

    I don’t think it was an objection to a kibbutz per se. He knew that I was searching for something, and wanted me to go and live in what he referred to as his commune where, he thought, I would find it. I did give the matter some thought. However, I didn’t doubt that going away to a kibbutz was the best thing for me to do at that time, and so I went ahead. I did write to him again from the kibbutz. He wrote back to say that since I had disregarded his advice, he did not understand why I was writing to him again. So, in my case at least, it wasn’t the fact that I was going away to a kibbutz; just the fact that I was going away, istead of throwing in my lot with him, as it were. Undoubtedly I made the right decision. Living on a kibbutz, doing agricultural work (I’d always worked in offices before then), made a huge impact on me.

    It was whilst I was back in the UK for a few months, after my first year on the kibbutz, that I met Kenneth Grant for the first time, and was set forth on my present trajectory, which is to develop his work.

    #113706

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @hp :

    shouldn’t we be keeping our eyes on the horizon?
    And thereby running the danger of tripping over what is in front of our noses, perhaps (metaphorically speaking)?

    @shiva :

    [T]he initiate knows, without a shadow of doubt, that something is there, and they are connected to it.
    Aho! So that’s what you “believe” (=have more than blind faith) in, then! Is that exclusiveness possible “below the Abyss” (or even beyond…)?

    Queryingly yours
    N Joy

    #113708

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @shiva:

    [T]he initiate knows, without a shadow of doubt, that something is there, and they are connected to it.

    That’s a very good way of putting it.

    #113709

    Shiva
    Participant

    ms: Undoubtedly I made the right decision. Living on a kibbutz, doing agricultural work (I’d always worked in offices before then), made a huge impact on me.

    Aha! A true Man of Earth.

    j; Is that exclusiveness possible “below the Abyss”[?]

    It is the hallmark of the first initiation in sny system or religion. It is a first satori-glimpse of the source and the guide.

    (or even beyond…)?

    Every level we can describe has something “higher” to which we are first allowed to see (a vision), then gradually become … only to find a “next” upper focal point. There is one exception: The final one. Ain. Nirvana. Nothing. the Void. The Black Hole. Many names, one annihilation.

    ms: That’s a very good way of putting it.

    The second part of this (sort of) universal principle is that when the initiate talks about his or her experience with members of his or her family, they will do anything to convince the initiate that he or she was hallucination, or imagining, or some other aberration.

    The Vision, of course, wears off and goes away, but the initiate now has a firm concept of the goal. This goal will later be found to be an intermediary state, and a “greater” Vision is afforded the Adept.

    #113710

    henrypearce
    Participant

    @michaelstaley

    Why shouldn’t she be here?
    I certainly wasn’t questioning her right to be here.

    #113711

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @henrypearce

    I certainly wasn’t questioning her right to be here.

    OK. My apologies for misrepresenting you, then.

    #113716

    Shiva
    Participant

    hp: I certainly wasn’t questioning her right to be here.

    It seemed to me that you were questioning her motive(s) in being here, not her right to do so.

    Superficially (and probably deeper), she was here because she knew Amado and wanted to share. That part went quite smoothly. Even deeper (self-confessed by her) motives involved getting to know (some of) us better, combined with Evangelical Quotes.

    #113717

    Barbara Green
    Participant

    Since my motives for being here have been questioned, I feel I must explain myself. I will try to be brief, so as not to bore you.

    I became a seeker when I was 17 and found that ordinary life did not satisfy the emptiness in my soul. I was off to university at the time, and got heavily into dorm life: drinking, drugs, and promiscuity. When that did not satisfy, I started looking elsewhere: Eastern religions, witchcraft, the occult, etc. One thing I knew was that I did not want to be a Christian. Christianity was for wimps, therefore not for me.

    After graduating university, I did a tour of Europe. During my stay in London, I found an occult bookshop that I was browsing through when I met one of Mike’s students, who turned me on to Mike’s self-published books. There were seven of them; I believe that they were Liber Lucis, although I don’t actually remember. I took them home with me and read them there. I immediately started writing to Mike and a year later, I joined him at his commune is southern England. The next bit of my life is spelled out on pg. 3 of this thread, so I won’t repeat it here.

    My motives for being here are simple. First, I needed a forum to share my feelings about Mike and the occult. My friends don’t get it, but you do. Also, someone said I should know better than to try to convert a bunch of occultists. But if there is anyone out there who is in the same place I was 40 years ago, I would like to share the love of God with them. In addition, I have grown to love you all and would miss you if I quit corresponding.

    My beliefs are simple (and yes I do have them.) I believe that we are all depraved, imperfect, and, yes, sinful, including and especially myself. Second, I believe that there is One True God, and that He loves us in spite our imperfections. How could I not love someone who loves me so unconditionally?

    My evangelism style is simple, too. I do not believe you can force anybody to believe anything. I do not knock on people’s doors, and I abhor all the wars, persecutions, and inquisitions done in the name of Christianity. My job, as I see it, is to love others the way that God loves them and let God do the rest. – Barbara

    PS: Jaime asked what kind of a body we have when we are resurrected. The Bible says that we will have a glorified, perfect body, not the body we had when we died. “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”

    #113720

    Shiva
    Participant

    bg: The Bible says that we will have a glorified, perfect body

    Yes, this is The Body of Light I have referred to in other places. It is not the astral body or the causal body. It is earned at the so-called fourth initiation (the Crucifixion), which equates to our well known Magister Templi 8=3. See HPB, VVVVV, Los, etc.

    The saying is A Magister is not a Magister unless he/she is operating in the Body of Light. The rest of the time, one is just a boob and subject to the same conditions as everyone else.

    The thing is, we don’t have to wait for a mythical event that will take place after we die dead. It’s a function of Binah, and anyone (“no-man”) who can get there while alive gets in on this special offer pre-mortem.

    #113721

    henrypearce
    Participant

    Rightio Barbara.

    His work was like a palimpsest. Perhaps he was too? In his last works you might see the erased lines of Liber Lucis, but the end work was remotely beyond the first. You’ve shared. I get it.

    Honi soit qui mal y pense 😉 x

    #113722

    Barbara Green
    Participant

    Shiva, I have never seen a glorified body in this lifetime. If experience is everything, where does that leave us? One could argue for a glorified mind maybe, but even that would be far beyond what I see in the world. All I have ever seen is decay and death and imperfection. I have seen little glimpses of something higher in each of us, but not to the level that the Bible describes we will have at the resurrection.

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