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  • #113723

    Barbara Green
    Participant

    The initiate knows, without a shadow of doubt, that something is there, and they are connected to it.

    This is exactly how I feel about knowing God. I have experienced Him in a way that is very real. I know that I know, so to speak. If this experience can be had in the occult realm, why not in the Christian realm? Is my experience any less valid just because you don’t believe in my theology? I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that He is there, and I am connected to Him. It’s that simple, yet that profound.

    #113725

    christibrany
    Participant

    Barbara I know the world is tough but I don’t think it is ‘only decay and death and imperfection.’ It is all about what you choose to perceive, where you choose to put your focus….

    ‘ Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains.’
    ‘A feast for life but a greater feast for death!’

    #113726

    Tiger
    Participant

    My beliefs are simple (and yes I do have them.) I believe that we are all depraved, imperfect, and, yes, sinful, including and especially myself.
    My job, as I see it, is to love others the way that God loves them
    when we are resurrected. The Bible says that we will have a glorified, perfect body, not the body we had when we died. “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Its ok
    just come back to your breath .

    #113727

    Shiva
    Participant

    bg: If this experience can be had in the occult realm, why not in the Christian realm?

    Of course it can be had in the Christian realm. Many Christians “attain,” despite the Church. Alice Bailey has a whole set of publications that explain the occult/spiritual path/white brotherhood from a an esoteric Christian viewpoint. Her work is completely compatible with Crowley’s (except for their viewpoints on sex). The key vision of the first degree, in any system, is The Vision of Adonai. Adonai means “Lord,” and anyone can tack any subtitle they want onto that term, depending on their ray, their culture, and their religious convictions.

    #113728

    Barbara Green
    Participant

    @christibrany: I’m afraid I overstated my case. We were talking about perfection (glorification) in this lifetime, and I meant just to say that I have never seen it. I do believe that there is true joy to be had, although mine was hard won, having had a difficult childhood. But by the grace of God, I now have lasting peace and joy.

    @shiva: I am not talking about an occult/Christian experience that you describe. I am merely talking about the ability to know that God exists and that we can have a relationship with Him based on that knowledge.

    #113729

    Shiva
    Participant

    bg: … perfection (glorification) in this lifetime, and I meant just to say that I have never seen it.

    Nor have most (all?) of us. That’s because the states of “perfection” are located in a “higher state” that some Adepts can reach in meditation, or perhaps manifest it on the physical plane for a short period of time. The “perfected” (= no mind) persopn is not “perfect” unless they are operating in their Light Body.

    I am not talking about an occult/Christian experience that you describe. I am merely talking about the ability to know that God exists and that we can have a relationship with Him based on that knowledge.

    I didn’t describe an “occult” Christian experience. That means “hidden.” You are describing your (non-hidden) experience openly in public. The actual degrees or grades in the White Brotherhood, Tibetan Buddhism, or Christianity are all the same. The first step (grade, degree, level) is “The Vision of the Lord,” which can take on various enhancements – according to the thougform-making capacity of the brain involved.

    If you “know” there is a God by having had that experience, then you’ve passed the first degree. If you simply “know” without having had that experience, then it’s probably just a case of “wishful thinking.”

    If you (anyone) has had a conversation (two-way dialog) with that “God,” then that would be a much higher experience. About half-way up the mountain. If (anyone) is able to “become one” with that “God,” then that’s “perfection,” but most dense vehicles can’t bear the load for too long. So we find cases of people who are just ordinary dorks, who can slip into that state from time to time. It’s called samadhi.

    #113730

    Tiger
    Participant

    Pre-tribulation rapture theology originated in the eighteenth century, with the Puritan preachers Increase and Cotton Mather, and was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby[12][13] and the Plymouth Brethren,[14] and further in the United States by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible in the early 20th century
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

    #113731

    Barbara Green
    Participant

    @shiva: By what you describe, I am “about halfway up the mountain.” I know that there is a God by experience. I have had multiple experiences of conversations with God. (Not audible, mind you, but in the spirit.) These experiences become more frequent the more time I put into sitting down and trying to hear His voice.

    Now the third level, there’s the rub. It is difficult in that it takes much time and prayer. I have the desire to live in this place, but have been hindered by raising kids and just everyday life itself. In other words, I am just an “ordinary dork.”

    I have known a handful of people in my lifetime that live in the third level on a regular basis, because of the time they put into it and their openness to the Spirit. However, I have trouble calling it “perfection” because the
    Bible teaches that we constantly live with a “sin nature” that tends to drag us down to the ordinary dork level.

    As an aside, I have known many people who think that they live on this level constantly. They are usually loud, obnoxious, and overbearing, and I can’t abide being with them.

    #113732

    Shiva
    Participant

    bg: Not audible, mind you, but in the spirit.

    Yes. The word used most frequently is “telepathy.” Anyone who has engaged higher consciousness, such as an Amngel, or a Master, or a god, or the (un-named) God, can be considered “self-contained,” and they have no further need for gurus or masters.

    … have been hindered by raising kids and just everyday life itself.

    Welcome to the (universal) club. That stage is called “the dual life of the disciple.” It involves coping with the matrix (everyday life) while juggling spiritual endeavors in the few empty time-spaces that are available.

    In other words, I am just an “ordinary dork.”

    Welcome to the club.

    we constantly live with a “sin nature” that tends to drag us down to the ordinary dork level.

    The only “sin” that causes this is a sense of individual separateness (ego). This disappears in the trance of samadhi. But then we come back to “ourselves” again. After a period of about 20 years, our brainwave pattern begins to generate a constant delta wave, while we are still awake and aware. Says so in the scriptures of Ken Wilber, and is ratified by my experience.

    As an aside, I have known many people who think that they live on this level constantly. They are usually loud, obnoxious, and overbearing, and I can’t abide being with them.

    Oh those folks. They are displaying a “super-ego,” which is not used in the sense of the Freudian term. It means “inflated ego,” amnd is sometimes associated with the “Messiah complex.” These people are absolute experts on any subject … right?

    May the Good Lord, and his servant Aiwass, protect us from the intrusion of these “masters.”

    #113733

    dom
    Participant

    @shiva

    a Christian will always be a black magician simply because their path of NUN is blocked, the path of SHIN is blocked and of course AYIN. Why? Sin-obsession (ie fake sin), acceptance of a malicious shadow being knows as “the Devil”) , everlasting-life-only-found-in-christ nonsense and obsession with the fear of death……that’s just for starters.

    I was going to quote a couple of lines from AL chapter 2 about the rituals of the old time but …Hell… read the entire chapter..and then the other 2 chapters. Jesus on the cross in AL chapter 3 for example…so on and on. The entire text is anti Christ.

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 6 hours ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 5 days, 6 hours ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 5 days, 6 hours ago by  dom. Reason: Grammar,
    #113737

    Barbara Green
    Participant

    @dom: I think it is amusing that the three “paths” you say I have blocked are all Hebrew letters, while we accept the Hebrew scriptures as part of our scriptures. How did Hebrew letters get into Crowley’s theology, anyway? The Hebrew scriptures are full of references to sin and righteousness.

    You say we are sin obsessed and call it “fake sin.” You sound like Donald Trump.

    You also say that we have an “obsession with the fear of death” I disagree. A true Christian will have no fear of death because they know where they are going. Can you say the same thing?

    #113738

    Tiger
    Participant

    You are a Star !
    Not a botched experiment;

    unless you prefer to be bound and attached to that spell
    and work your way through it

    #113739

    Shiva
    Participant

    d: … acceptance of a malicious shadow being knows as “the Devil”) [etc]

    Yep, that’s one of the points to be examined. Jung went a long way in explaining the “shadow,” which is (one of) the sorces(s) of the Devil. The thing is, we have to accept it, because we all carry one … up to the level of Netzach. That’s where it’s confronted. It doesn’t get fully edited out of the picture (the daily hologram) until after Paroketh. Even then, it’s still active, but we’re supposed to have gained control over it. If not, then the “evil genius” gets to play.

    d: The entire text is anti Christ.

    Yes it is. But AC was the vehicle for the AntiChrist, so we can’t expect mercy. The text is also anti Buddhist, Mongol, and Din, plus Mary. Holy cow and a half! I’m surprised a shot wasn’t taken at the Hindoo deities, the Tibetans, and the Vikings. Since Crowley was persecuted by the Plymouth Brethren as a child, it’s not hard to see how Jesus became his enemy. I was not particularly tormented by the Lutheran church, so my life has not revolved around its destruction. I have a problem with policemen. You see, I was scared by a cop when I wuz a tyke, so that shows you how we all have different agendas.

    bg: How did Hebrew letters get into Crowley’s theology, anyway?

    Oh they’re just the basis of the Qabalah and the Tree of Life. It’s standard fare in many western esoteric schools to study the Qabalah as a means to order one’s mind. Crowley was instructed (in The Book of the Law) to get over into English, but he seems to have gotten stuck in Greek.

    bg: You sound like Donald Trump.

    Uh, oh! You better steer clear of contemporary politics. This is the Aleister Crowley Society. Politics is dynamite. You may quote me. You’re safter posting on our favorite comedy than invoking politicians.

    As a physician, I must state that I doubt Christians do not have a fear of death. We all have a fear of death. It’s hard-wired into our survival circuit. The survival circuit over-rides the religious circuit (known as cultural programming, the social circuit, found at Netzach). There are very few people who can look death squarely in the eye and not get a rush of adrenaline. I refer not to concepts. I refer to falling off the cliff, staring down the gun barrel. I will be happy to test you and see if your claim is true. <haha>

    #113744

    christibrany
    Participant

    It’s one thing to be mentally and spiritually prepared for death, hell even partially or mostly physically prepared. But even the toughest mofos who have been in life or death situations will still quake a bit. The trick is in controlling yourself after the initial RUSH. Some people like myself get addicted to that ‘near-death’ physical RUSH and take to skateboarding, sky diving, and all sorts of fun 😀
    These days I am older and prefer to experience my near death rushes through contemplating ways of dying and or driving fast but I used to be quite the daredevil (idiot) like most youngins. I DO still want to go skydiving!

    Speaking of ‘all being the same’ between the White Brotherhood (A.:.A.:.), Buddhism, Christianity’ I am not sure if I agree.

    I am in the middle of a great book by Stephen Flowers that delineates quite succinctly and eruditely how no matter how much AC wanted to be a Right Hand Path kinda guy, he was really a Left Hand Path ‘black brother’ as he never truly gave up his Ego, and Thelema while great for self improvement, does ultimately seem to tend it’s disciples towards retaining their individual personalities/abilities all the way up the Tree. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I do think it’s very murky territory that could be debated.

    #113754

    dom
    Participant

    @shiva.

    A shot taken at the Vikings?

    No I don’t think that a shot would’ve been taken at the Vikings.

    • This reply was modified 4 days, 6 hours ago by  dom.
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