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  • #115206

    christibrany
    Participant

    And anyway @ignant666 I love you in that thelemic way and probably for real if I met you but if you had read the actual arguments going around, IE Obama already did it, and also the news is being more anti establishment than it ever was, you may realise we are floating some real thought.

    It’s a salon here.

    I missed your input.

    Camping?

    I want to soon.

    #115217

    ignant666
    Participant

    Salon schmalon.

    All i see here, with few exceptions (hi, Michael Staley! Or should i say Tovarich Staley?) is a whole lot of reptile brain/fear-circuit activity, drummed up by media manipulation, by both the far-right media (Fox, and the similar online sources of false information so popular among conservatives), and the “liberal mainstream media” (eg, The New York Times, almost all TV cable news), who are fully in the pocket of the far right, due to decades of clever manipulation by the right of their fear of “taking sides”.

    And all this fear in response to wholly imaginary events (floods of undocumented immigrants; uh, no, the numbers are way down from their peak before Bush The Younger’s idiot economic policies caused a depression), and ordinary events portrayed as crises (there are, as usual over the last 40 years, a lot of Central Americans claiming their legal right to asylum (under US and and international law), in numbers that are slightly higher than before Trump began all his policies, but not close to historic highs).

    Also, in response to christibrany’s claim that “Obama already did it”, meaning i think that he did anything resembling The Dotard’s Draconian and lawless immigration tantrums , this is of course entirely false, and without a shred of factual support, like many, if not most, things believed as gospel truth among American conservatives, who tend to insulate themselves within a cognitive bubble.

    I say “tantrums” because the things God-Emperor Tiny-Hands has done aren’t really what you can call “policies” per se, since they are just showbiz, channeling the emotional eruptions of a cognitively-challenged senescent who hates all foreigners who are not hot eastern European models. Oh, and hates all dark-skinned people, regardless of where they were born (and even if they became naturalized citizens before his wife). We also have a President who does not understand that Puerto Rico is part of the US (or that Comrade Congressperson Ocasio-Cortez was born in NYC, just like him).

    Returning to reality (such as it is): You (and everyone else) should get out in the woods/desert/local form of wild land, it’s good for your mind, body, and spirit. I would recommend waiting til the current heatwave passes though- i spent the day before yesterday riding out of the woods back to civilization on a loaded (with camping gear) bicycle in 97 degrees of broiling Maryland sun (36.1 degrees Centigrade for you poor folks not fortunate enough to live in God’s Own Country), wondering if i was going to die of dehydration and bonking hard. Beer has never tasted so good, nor a shower felt so good.

    Confronting fear, and testing one’s limits to the, um, limit, are good for you; AC certainly knew this, as an outdoorsman and mountain climber.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    #115234

    ignant666
    Participant

    Again with the double-posting, and i can only plead deprivation after a week away in the woods:

    i am not here to convert anyone to my politics, and am kind of done with wanting to post on this topic.

    This thread arose from a casual passing remark i made about not being anything like a “liberal” parent in the child-rearing thread, being more into a very old-fashioned strict but bohemian version of parenting, and personally despising “liberals”.

    By “liberals”, i mean that term (synonym “progressive”, pronounced by some American radicals (like me) a la Elmer Fudd, as “pwogwessive”) as understood in American politics: weak leftists who support compromise with folks who hate us (“us” meaning highly-educated folks (especially scientists) and teachers, blacks, Latinx folks whether “Born In The USA” or immigrants and refugees, other non-blonde foreigners, queers, gays, lesbians, trans-folk, poor people, union members (including EMTs, cops, and firefighters), Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen, veterans of the above services, people that work for a living, and all American non-yacht owners generally).

    So (since i am done here) for anyone who wants to learn something about actual real-world American left-Democrats (as opposed to the nonsense about us spewed by the Fox Official State Propaganda Network, and the easily manipulated “on the one hand, on the other hand” MSM), here are two hard-left Democrat political blogs i read daily, and respect greatly (without, of curse, agreeing with or endorsing everything said on either, so don’t bother).

    Both are group efforts. Both are also very funny, in both a very vulgar, and a very intellectual way, sometimes at the same time.

    Both have been going for a long time and thus involve ongoing in-jokes, and ironic vocabulary, that may take a while to get used to for someone who does not follow American politics very closely, closely enough to immediately understand that “walking the Appalachian Trail” means not hiking but “High elected official having an extramarital affair and using government resources to cover it up” or that “To have one’s luggage lifted” means “Yet another very homophobic ‘pro-family’ right-wing Republican Congressman has gotten caught having sex with very young boys in public toilets”, or that “wetsuit and two dildos” refers to what we far-left Democrats believe to be the preferred death-attire of far-right homophobic, “pro-family” Evangelical preachers (based, of course on a far-right Evangelical preacher found dead from auto-erotic asphyxia thus attired). [Usage query for this learned group: can we properly call dildos “attire”? They are worn (sometimes very; i’ll be here all week folks) but internally unlike most of what we’d usually call “attire”.]

    Balloon Juice includes several veterans of the ongoing Endless War In The Middle East (one of whom is currently a prof at the Army War College), and also concerns gardening, cooking and dogs and cats. The ringleader is a recovered Republican Iraq War I vet who is a college professor in West Virginia; he is a fat man who wears overalls. [I particularly commend this blog to christibrany, who may find himself turning into a communist if he reads a bit of it, and will at least learn that the American left bears no resemblance to what Fox and the MSM have told him it is. It will be particularly difficult for chris to imagine we latte-sipping commies are somehow different (we are said to be effete coastal cultural elites) than people like him after reading a bit.]

    Home Page

    Lawyers Guns And Money, as the name suggest, is mostly lawyers, and one hardware-orientated defense policy guy.

    http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/

    Traditional American patriotism 1945-2016 was based on three things: 1) the democratic rebellion against royal England, 2) the defeat of the forces of treason in defense of slavery in the Civil War (the Confederacy still are reigning champs in killing US military personnel, and yet one today sees the flags of blood and treason at veterans’ events, and otherwise flown in public, in many states including, shockingly, states where their sons fought and died for the victorious Union against the traitor Confederates); and 3) uniting with the UK, the Anzacs, Brazil, and non-Axis Europe to beat the Fascist Axis.

    Everyone still seems to agree American independence was a good idea, but now we always must say “some say the Civil War was not about slavery, and Southerners just want to honor their history”, and “some say Nazis and other Fascists are just misunderstood white working-class folks with valid economic concerns”.

    Fuck that.

    Confederates and Nazis (and Stalinist Communists in the Korean and Vietnam Wars) killed lots of my relatives, and did their best to kill the members of my family they missed.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    #115238

    ignant666
    Participant

    Fuck, what a glaring error (that could never be made by a “Big C” Communist): the US and other Allies i named of course could not possibly have defeated the Axis without the truly heroic efforts, courage and willingness to die (which they did, in numbers unequaled in military history either in absolute numbers or as a percentage of population) of the Soviet Red Army, Red Naval Fleet, and Soviet Air Force, under the command of the despicable Marshal Stalin.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    #115240

    ignant666
    Participant

    Really done now: For anyone with no time for in-jokey blogs, here is the state of play, Election 2020, from a smart Democratic Party political operative, in 34 tweets:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1152930670093787141.html

    Also, fuck all imbecile, senile-but-dumb-as-a-rock-as-a-young-man-anyway, diaper-wearing, combovered, scam-artist Queens real estate guys who used to play a rich man on TV who may be golfing on the taxpayers’ dime in between getting their opinions and orders from Putin and Fox State Broadcasting while eating well-done steak with ketchup. not that i mean anyone in particular.

    ignant over and out from this thread until i decide otherwise.

    #115246

    Shiva
    Participant

    Ig: … the Civil War was not about slavery, and Southerners just want to honor their history …

    It started out as an economic war (Industry vs Agriculture) and got around to Slavery as it was fought. Right?

    some say Nazis and other Fascists are just misunderstood white working-class folks

    No. Nazism was a full-blown manifestation of the Black Lodge.

    #115248

    ignant666
    Participant

    [The US Civil War] started out as an economic war (Industry vs Agriculture ) and got around to Slavery as it was fought. Right?

    No, totally incorrect and could not possibly be more wrong.

    In your defense, that is the view of the Civil War you were probably taught in high school and college, as was the case for almost all Americans until the late ’60s/early ’70s (and, of course, to this day in the ex-Confederate states), and the predominant consensus (with many dissenters) among US historians pre-’60s.

    The purpose of the Confederacy’s treasonous rebellion against the United States, and subsequent military attack on the United States, and killing of more US Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines* than any foreign enemy has ever managed (and without modern weapons used by subsequent killers of US troops) was to maintain slavery, and to extend it into any new states to be created from the western territories. Listen to the designer of the Confederate flag of treason:

    As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause [he subsequently rethought this whole “white flag” thing, probably after someone with military experience explained the “flag or truce, parley, or surrender” thing]. Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN’S FLAG.

    As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals [also known as the United States flag that generation of Americans have fought and died for].

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tappan_Thompson

    Or listen to Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, in his famous “Cornerstone Address”:

    Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

    It was not an economic war of agriculture vs, industry. There were actually far more farmers than factory/mill workers in the Union states, but of course they either owned their land or got paid wages. Slavery is a very good deal for slave owners, economically speaking, and the Confederacy was determined to maintain this inhuman economic advantage at whatever price in blood.

    The Confederate traitors foolishly overestimated their own military skills and valor, and relied far too much on the treasonous efforts of high military officials in the pre-war Federal government who systematically transferred military assets (rifles, cannon, baggage train wagons, ships, boats, military engineering equipment, etc) to the southern states in secret preparation for the coming treason.

    Arlington National Cemetery (the USA’s special cemetery for military veterans, where my father’s ashes are), is on the confiscated grounds of the former plantation of the traitor “General” [a “clandestine” title bestowed by the traitors; his highest US Army rank was Colonel] Robert E. Lee. the first care-takers were his freed slaves.

    Oh how easily i am drawn back in. But really.

    _____________
    *There were no US Airmen in the 19th century, as US military aviation shut down for more than a century after we took the British airports during the 1776 Revolution.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
    #115263

    Shiva
    Participant

    Ig: No, totally incorrect and could not possibly be more wrong.

    Oh, I could modify it some and make it more wrong. I made my statement about the Civil War (shudder), and ended it with a “Right?”

    You see, I’m not a historian, except in certain, contained areas/eras/eros. The Civil War must have been mentioned in Primary or Intermediate school (for me), but I certainly don’t remember the tale or the spin. I do remember the Gold Rush history in 6th grade, what with it being the 100th anniversary of that scramble.

    For High School and College, I attended no history classes (pre-dental major, psych minor, all science and misc required classes that did not include history … of any kind.

    Whatever I picked up on our Civil Insurrection was obtained by osmosis, not by study.

    So thanks for the history lesson.

    Now, does anyone want to dispute or negate the fact that Nazism was a full-blown manifestation of the Black Lodge?

    #115266

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    history lesson. Now, does anyone want to dispute or negate

    Naw, thanks — at present I’d be too scared I was gonna be chewed out!

    Yours as a trepidatious scaredy-cat,
    N Joy

    #115272

    Anonymous

    While I understand learning about these individual systems of government, I do not understand you here arguing the points of one over another. They all failed.

    #115280

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    By “you“, do you mean “me” here, mayet? I ask in the context as the previous poster to yourself I mean, in which case if you were to tell me which point(s) it was I was “arguing over” I might be able to paraphrase it/ them clearer for you (or not, as I’m not just yet at all clear on to what you could be referring!)
    If not, kindly ignore & forget about the above but to what were you referring then?

    Fractionally perplexedly yrs,
    N Joy

    #115307

    dom
    Participant

    Slavery is horrible in the modern age (duh?).

    That said, the 1800s were a time of nation-building for the USA and the German dukedoms who were united by Prussian dominance and yes, the general forces of industry. Many see Lincoln as a Christ-like figure, <chuckle>, maybe he was just a cold Machiavellian nation-builder like his counterpart Bismarck over the Atlantic. He knew that the end of slavery would total the southern economy and it did, with effects that still run today. Many non-KKK types in the south view Lincoln as a Molosevician ethnic cleanser type who used brutal force, massacres and (well documented) sexual violence upon the women of the southern states to get what he wanted; A United States.

    I assume that Christ-like Lincoln was behind the conscription debacle which ensured that poverty-stricken Irish immigrants would be ordered to war whilst wealthy (presumably English descendant) settlers could buy their way out;

    (During the civil war…) substitution and commutation were frequent practices that allowed citizens to find a substitute or to pay $300 to avoid draft. The purpose was to placate the effect of the draft on pacifists and opponents of the draft. These policies lasted throughout the war. The problem with substitution was that the quality of substitutes was inferior as after collecting compensation they would desert. Commutation was one of the most controversial policies of the war which led to the slogan “rich man’s war, poor man’s fight”

    Conscription

    Funny that isn’t it? Not. Lincoln the great slavery abolitionist sneakily backs a conscription bill knowing quite well that it would be ushering the Irish into cannon-fodder dire straits. Race-hate basically. The irony! Like I said, Machiavelli, only pawns in his game.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #115312

    ignant666
    Participant

    [oh, Jesus H. Fuck, drawn back in again; may have to do get out the old Jugorum straight razor on this one]

    Yes, Mr-Imagined-Gotcha, it is correct that there was conscription, by both the US government, and the traitor Confederate states, during the Civil War.

    Of course, in the United States, the draft was not nearly so harshly enforced, or as easy to buy one’s way out of, as it was in the traitor rebel states. Would you like to read the paper i wrote in grad school about the NYC draft riots and the burning of the Colored Orphanage?

    I believe, though i am by no means as expert in European history as you imagine yourself to be about US history, it is also the case that the UK, and every other country involved, had conscription in both World Wars at least, and perhaps even at other times.

    Some would say the price was worth it. Here is “The Marching Song Of the First Arkansas Negro Regiment”, a marching song sung by soldiers who had previously been slaves who were freed by US troops, and runaway slaves, from the traitor state of Arkansas, before the US Army armed them, put them in uniform, and sent them back to kill their former owners and other oppressors:

    Oh, we’re the bully soldiers,
    Of the First of Arkansas.
    We’re fighting for the Union,
    We’re fighting for the law.
    We can hit the rebels further,
    Than the white man ever saw!
    As we go marching on!

    We have done with hoeing cotton,
    We have done with hoeing corn.
    We are colored Yankee soldiers,
    Just as sure as you are born.
    When the masters hear us coming,
    They’ll think it;s Gabriels horn!
    As we go marching on!

    [A verse not included in version posted:]

    Father Abraham has spoken,
    And the message has been sent,
    The prison doors he opened,
    And out the pris’ners went,
    To join the Sable Army
    Of African descent!
    As we go marching on!

    [There appears to be no video of this song sung by a black man available; i apologize for this failure by the internet- rule 34 does not apply to music, evidently. This one is sung by Pete Seeger, which is a damn sight better than goddam Tennessee Ernie Fucking Ford, of all people, singing about “We can hit the rebels further than the white man ever saw” (this is the ubiquitous, and iniquitous, version)]

    #115313

    dom
    Participant

    You didn’t address my point.

    The Irish were singled out as cannon fodder because Lincoln et al knew they wouldn’t be able to buy their way out of the draft.

    This is inadvertent ethnic cleansing by Lincoln et al. So much for Lincoln as Christ the abolitionist.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #115315

    ignant666
    Participant

    You didn’t address my point.

    The Irish were singled out as cannon fodder

    You’re correct. No, i did not “address [your (imagined)] point”, because it’s utter bullshit, and unusually wrong even for you.

    Needless to say, the link you provide gives no support whatever to the point you are trying to make, perhaps because it is wrong.

    The Irish were not “singled out as cannon fodder”.

    It is true that recent immigrants, including those fleeing a long famine in Ireland, were often poor and had to serve, rather than paying to get out of service. This was also true of most native-born country folk (that is, almost all Americans), and everyone else born without a silver spoon in their mouth.

    I have heard that it has sometimes been the case that immigrants have been mistreated, abused, or otherwise made to feel less than entirely welcome even in the UK, or is this incorrect?

    Later in the war, like early in the war (both times when the US was winning), the draft let up, and volunteers were again clamoring to go and kick some Rebel ass.

    One of my Irish-American ancestors who was a volunteer Union infantryman wrote home to his mother in Ohio: “Now I must put down my lonely pen, and take a shot at Johhny Reb across the way.” It is very clear from his letters home that he thought he was doing God’s work killing Confederate traitors.

    How bout we make a deal, david: i won’t question your expertise about the English Civil War (mid-period Clash song, right?), and you stop posting about the US Civil War?

    In other words, quit while you’re (just a bit) behind.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  ignant666.
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