July 23, 2019 at 11:32 pm #115317
Fact is Ignant you know that Lincoln was probably not acting out of humanitarian grounds. He was just a nation builder. Your bit about the traitor Confederate states wanting to expand their racist empire all across the USA now that is a crock of shit. You need to get over your white guilt. You’ve been blowing it all over this forum for the last year or so.
Do you think that Confederate-African slavery was the only slavery? All aristocratic cultures have had slaves throughout the centuries from China to Egypt to the Aztecs to the Vikings to on and on and on. Hell even African tribes had slaves no doubt.
Bakunin’s land-owning family had slaves as did all Russian land-owning families. They were called serfs. Besides how badly were the African slaves (presumably sold off by their own tribal elders) treated? Slavery was common in fact white Western societies had slaves in the modern age commonly know as, what’s the term again? Oh yeah the working class.July 23, 2019 at 11:44 pm #115319
Your bit about the traitor Confederate states wanting to expand their racist empire all across the USA now that is a crock of shit. You need to get over your white guilt.
Ah, so you have literally no idea what you are talking about. Read the main wikipedia Civil War article to confirm in five minutes that i am correct.
Slavery was common in fact white Western societies had slaves in the modern age commonly know as, what’s the term again? Oh yeah the working class.
Yes, and slaves get fed, and don’t pay rent.
The light is starting to dawn, isn’t it, david?- next thing you know, you’ll be reading Capital, Vol. I and figuring some stuff out.
You may want to check in with your logic teacher if you think your response includes any actual counterargument, but i like the signs that class-consciousness, which you surely possess, may soon evolve to political awareness.
Google the phrase “a class of and for itself”, and do a bit of reading, and the work needed to understand the reading, and you will probably be a full-on Communist within three weeks, given how you do tend to throw yourself into these things.
July 24, 2019 at 12:38 am #115321
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by ignant666.
I was thinking more of the white working class as documented by Dickens. It’s difficult to provide a counter argument when you seem to make assertions such as Trump wants to reverse the Iran nuclear deal just to spite a black man. I mean c’mon. Besides you ignored some of my points about Lincoln. You are aware that the nineteenth century was about the forces of industrialization (trying to keep up with super-power Great Britain) serving to catapult the powers-that-be into nation-building? See Prussia, Bismarck and the forces of rapid industrialization. I just googled this idea of Lincoln as the American version of Bismarck and found that a lot of scholars have got there before me….lolJuly 24, 2019 at 3:24 am #115322
Bluster, bluster, bluster.
When will you graciously admit, “Well, Comrade ignant, you were right, as usual, and i was dead fucking wrong, as usual, and was just an ignorant motherfucker shooting my mouth off about matters about which i know literally less than nothing, when i said ‘Your bit about the traitor Confederate states wanting to expand their racist empire all across the USA now that is a crock of shit'”?
Surely by now you have done the very minimal work to discover Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3, of the “Constitution of the [clandestine] Confederate States of America”?
This concerns the matter that led the the traitors to secede, and attack the United States- the insistence of the South on the extension of slavery to any new states.The slave states had already secured an agreement with the free states that slavery would continue in the existing slave states).The remaining issue, the one that led to the war, was whether new states formed from the western territories, would be slave, or free, states.
Everyone knew there would be a lot of new states coming soon on all that land, with only genociding a few pesky Indians and Mexicans needed so that the White Man could pursue his Manifest Destiny of extending the God-ordained institution of Negro Slavery on the Western Frontier, as intended by Jesus Christ, and God Jehovah.
If you reply “Well, that over the top white supremacist rhetoric just shows how plagued by ‘white guilt’ you are”, i will be forced to thoroughly humiliate you by posting a dozen or so quotes showing how very much i’ve toned down the white supremacist rhetoric of the time. If you were to tell any black people who know me that i suffer from “white guilt”, you would make jaws drop, BTW.
The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several states; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form states to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory, the institution of negro slavery as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress, and by the territorial government: and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories, shall have the right to take to such territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the states or territories of the Confederate states.July 24, 2019 at 2:00 pm #115328
It might be a good idea for you to accept that ignant666 knows a little more about American politics than do you or I. Similarly, the chances are that ignant would recognise that he probably knows less than you when it comes to UK politics – such as Brexit – and would not take you to task on it.
July 24, 2019 at 4:12 pm #115330
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by Michael Staley.
Take over the airports.
Free the British from tyranny;
give them their Brexit.
Put everyone on an unregulated ship
and bill dom
even if he knows a thing or two about it.July 24, 2019 at 5:40 pm #115332
Michael- i pointed out this fairly obvious thing several times, as recently as the last page of the thread.
Obviously, when we discuss US history and politics, as an American with 21 years of formal education, with all my grad school work in both law and criminology including lots of US history, focused on policing of poor Americans, i have a certain amount of background here. I doubt UK elementary and secondary schools offer US history as a mandatory class every single year starting in first grade.
Then there is the fact that my dad was a Civil War buff (the last veterans were still alive when he was a kid in the ’30s), so i grew in a house with maybe a hundred books about the war, and recordings of marching songs that dad listened to (and that i thus know the words of by heart), and had visited every major battlefield by age 12 or so. Oh did i mention that the house where i lived as a teenager was where famous abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison was married and lived for years, and from which he published the abolitionist journal The Liberator? So there’s that stuff.
Then my mom the genealogy buff had a huge collection of Civil War stuff (in my attic now that she’s gone) from all my family members who fought (on the side of “the Union and the law”, of course): pictures of them in their uniforms, their US Army service records, letters home like the one i quoted above, etc.
Then there is the fact that in May, in preparation for this debate (just my psychic powers at work), i read the 500 page Personal Memoirs of Gen. (later President) Ulysses S. Grant, the brilliant military strategist who won the war for the Union, and a very good writer. The Memoirs include detailed, play-by-play description, with maps showing terrain and disposition of troops, of every battle, and campaign he was involved in- that is, all of them.
Grant, as interpreted and refined by J.F.C. Fuller, essentially invented modern warfare in his victorious Civil War campaigns. Previously, it was held as axiomatic that an army in the field could only advance as far and as fast as its supply trains and baggage wagons could support it. Grant’s innovation was to attack relentlessly, supporting troops by living off the land and farms as they advanced far beyond their supplies, while capturing and destroying enemy supplies, and the capacity to replace supplies (this strategy got much more effective with the invention of bombers in the 20th century, but the version with infantry with torches worked pretty well). The strategy culminated in (among other campaigns) Sherman’s burning of Atlanta, and his march to the sea, burning plantations (and thus destroying the wealth, and capacity to sustain themselves, of the traitor rebels), and freeing (and arming) slaves as they advanced.
In America, we like Grant so much we put him on our money:July 24, 2019 at 8:09 pm #115336
Okay to all entries and defeated contenders.
I precursed this thread, over there in the Amado thread where the nice but crystallized, Christian lady got contemporary-political. I nixed the politics, but Tiger (in his altercatory mentat) simply popped up over here and started this thread. Then the folks went all over the globe, coming down to the US Civil war.
Now … Where does Thelema fit in to today’s political scene?
(I got this far … when the LAShTAL site went down; other sites would load just fine).
(Now it’s back online … what happened?)
I suggest that “Man (et woman) has the right to vote as he (she) Will – in places where voting is allowed. Traditional monarchies and dictator-states require hope and help from other spells.
In case you missed it, the question on the floor is …
Where does Thelema fit in to today’s political scene?July 24, 2019 at 8:42 pm #115337
My version of “Thelema In politics” is about being free, for as many as possible, whether American or not.
Both kinds of free-dom: free as in “free beer”, and free as in “free speech”.
People need enough to eat, and places to live, and to be left alone to live their lives as they will. At the very least.
The Abolitionists, the “Wobblies“, and ’60s-’70s radicals like the Yippies/Zippies, Weathermen, and Rising Up Angry/Young Patriots were some guideposts (along with lots and lots of reading) in the evolution of my particular all-American (flag flying in front of my house as i type, and i own guns) anarchist/socialist bohemian politics. And punk rock. And Aleister Crowley.
July 24, 2019 at 10:10 pm #115341
- This reply was modified 1 month ago by ignant666.
“Where does Thelema fit in to today’s political scene?”
Can you be more specific please? Fit in how exactly? Not sure what you mean. Sorry for being dumb.July 24, 2019 at 11:08 pm #115343
The light is starting to dawn, isn’t it, david?- next thing you know, you’ll be reading Capital, Vol. I and figuring some stuff out…….
No Palomino. If you mean worker’s state when you talk about Communism/anarchism then no, wtf? I celebrate Maggie’s revolution not Lenin’s revolution.
do a bit of reading, and the work needed to understand the reading, and you will probably be a full-on Communist within three weeks, given how you do tend to throw yourself into these things.
I grew out of that class-resentement as a teenager. I’m a compassionate conservative. Probably right of centre though. The market place and the price mechanism is the closest man-made thing to Nature’s genius. May it thrive and prosper and everyone will benefit.July 24, 2019 at 11:19 pm #115345
cs: Can you be more specific please? Fit in how exactly? Not sure what you mean. Sorry for being dumb.
I am unable to be more specific, because the title of the thread is “Thelemic Politics.” I would guess that anything relating Thelema (Will) to Politics (*) would be on-topic.
If you wanted to promote, say, anti-Communism in China, that would not qualify … unless you can prove it’s your Will.
(*) Politics [noun]: the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.
Here’s my take on it: (1) “People need enough to eat, and places to live, and to be left alone to live their lives as they will. At the very least.” – Ignant
(2) There is no “Thelemic” party, program, or canidate(s). So there’s no need to vicariously beat any drums.
(3) “Thelema” relates to the individual. So each individual has to vote/not-vote, support/not-support, revolt/not-revolt, kill (fill)/not-kill (not-fill) as he or she so “wills” according to their inner wisdom and outer circumstances.
That should be adequate for putting your heart at ease and your mind at rest. Now it’s time to STOP the mind and return to our escape from illusion. Then the angels will tell you who to vote/not-vote for, and what to revolt/not-revolt against.July 24, 2019 at 11:49 pm #115347
What did Crowley have to say about communism/anarchism? Well considering that AC said that F.M. Nietzsche was “almost an avatar of Thoth” I’m sure he would’ve dismissed it as a product of slave-morality and therefore as the antithesis of Thelema.July 25, 2019 at 1:23 am #115348
Quote: The Book of Lies – Ch 80
The price of existence is eternal warfare.
Speaking as an Irishman, I prefer to say: The price of eternal warfare is existence.
And melancholy as existence is, the price is well worth paying.
Is there is a Government? then I’m agin it! To Hell with the bloody English!
“O FRATER PERDURABO, how unworthy are these sentiments!”
“D’ye want a clip on the jaw?”July 25, 2019 at 3:04 am #115349
“I suggest that “Man (et woman) has the right to vote as he (she) Will – in places where voting is allowed. Traditional monarchies and dictator-states require hope and help from other spells.”
In case you missed it, the question on the floor is …
Where does Thelema fit in to today’s political scene?
Thelema fit in the scheme of things in the role of the development of true self and will, which evolves the being past being subjected to falsehoods and pageantries of lies.. which will allow people true informed decision making especially of the governments of each and or all.
I was reading an interesting article in Uncensored magazine issue 56 page 22 by Caitlyn Johnson
The Illusory Truth Effect – How Millions Were Duped By Russiagate
here is an online link to the article not sure if it’s fully the same as in mag. It was a real eye opener especially this paragraph
We have a tendency to select for cognitive ease, which is why confirmation bias is a thing; believing ideas which don’t cause cognitive strain or dissonance gives us more cognitive ease than doing otherwise. Our evolutionary ancestors adapted to seek out cognitive ease so that they could put their attention into making quick decisions essential for survival, rather than painstakingly mulling over whether everything we believe is as true as we think it is. This was great for not getting eaten by saber-toothed tigers in prehistoric times, but it’s not very helpful when navigating the twists and turns of a cognitively complex modern world. It’s also not helpful when you’re trying to cultivate truthful beliefs while surrounded by screens that are repeating the same bogus talking points over and over again.
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