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dom
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06/01/2019 2:00 pm  

He had some harsh things to say about them. Why? Jealousy that he had to work for his psychical abilities?


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redman
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06/01/2019 2:47 pm  

I would say that it was most likely due to that period where there were many charlatans and frauds being exposed on a regular basis.

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Jamie J Barter
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06/01/2019 5:27 pm  

Apart from the obvious charlatans & fraudsters, Crowley did not only not have harsh things to say about (some of) them, but he had the greatest respect for those "psychic-medium" pythonessic channellers who succeeded in bringing forth e.g. Amalantrah, Ab-ul-diz, Aiwass etc., as the same time as always being rather critical of those he saw as just dabbling & delving within the lower reaches of the astral.

Greetings on Twelfth Night & wishing you many epiphanies
Norma N Joy Conquest


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ignant666
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07/01/2019 2:48 pm  

Crowley lived through the Golden Age of fraudulent spiritualist mediums, table-tapping, trumpets, ectoplasm, etc.

As someone driven by an obsession with spiritual advancement through occult methods, he of course went after those he thought were giving such activities a bad name.

So, no, i don't think he was too hard on spiritualist mediums, since they were all either frauds, delusional, or subject to possession by icky things, no more than Houdini or the many others who debunked fraudulent mediums were too hard on such liars and scam-artists.


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dom
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07/01/2019 5:20 pm  

yeah of course any right minded person is against charlatanism but here in MITAP chapter 21 he talks of those mediums with abilities;

Of all the creatures He ever met, the most prominent of English spiritists (a journalist and pacifist of more than European fame) had the filthiest mind and the foulest mouth. He would break off any conversation to tell a stupid smutty story, and could hardly conceive of any society assembling for any other purpose than "phallic orgies", whatever they may be. Utterly incapable of keeping to a subject, he would drag the conversation down again and again to the sole subject of which he really thought --- sex and sex-perversions and sex and sex and sex and sex again.
This was the plain result of his spiritism. All spiritists are more or less similarly afflicted. They feel dirty even across the street; their auras are ragged, muddy and malodorous; they ooze the slime of putrefying corpses.
No spiritist, once he is wholly enmeshed in sentimentality and Freudian fear-phantasms, is capable of concentrated thought, of persistent will, or of moral character. Devoid of every spark of the divine light which was his birthright, a prey before death to the ghastly tenants of the grave, the wretch, like the mesmerized and living corpse of Poe's Monsieur Valdemar, is a "nearly liquid mass of loathsome, of detestable putrescence."
The student of this Holy Magick is most earnestly warned against frequenting their seances, or even admitting them to his presence.
They are contagious as Syphilis, and more deadly and disgusting. Unless your aura is strong enough to inhibit any manifestation of the loathly larvae that have taken up their habitation in them, shun them as you need not mere lepers!

It occurs in certain rare cases that a very unusual degree of personal purity combined with integrity and force of character provides even the ignorant with a certain natural defence, and attracts into his aura only intelligent and beneficent entities. Such persons may perhaps practise spiritualism without obvious bad results, and even with good results, within limits. But such exceptions in no wise invalidate the general rule, or in any way serve as argument against the magical theory outlined above with such mild suasion.

Actually it occurred to me that I think that the modern term for what Crowley's is discussing there is "channelling" which is pretty wacky. However there are people who communicate with the dead a la Sixth Sense movie, They are not "channelers" and some do sell their ability as a service. The evidence of genuine ability seems very strong and even Colin Wilson was convinced however of course there are con men in that field.

Judge this huy for yourself;he asks 'someone with a brain tumour? ...someone with a name starting with J...a new car...cars....a diabetic? Know anyone called Stephanie...so on

I'm sorry but there is something going on here that needs looking into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1juNLJ97i0


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ignant666
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07/01/2019 6:54 pm  

yes, as i said, most are frauds but some are subject to possession by icky things ("loathly larvae" as AC puts it).

No time to waste watching videos of psychics, but all TV psychics are frauds, as the icky things are scared off by klieg lights, and don't show up for the try-outs, so the genuinely possessed seldom get booked.

Seriously, you are impressed with a fake psychic's patter that includes "Is there someone in the house whose name begins with J?"

There are 26 letters, some are more common than others. Similarly, among any decent sized crowd, there are certain to be diabetics, owners of new cars, and friends of Stephanie (and even of Dorothy), just as there are certain to be at least two people with the same birthday.

For a recovering "Skeptic", you are very gullible; study the work of "The Amazing Randi" for an antidote.


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dom
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07/01/2019 9:49 pm  

@ignant666

es, as i said, most are frauds but some are subject to possession by icky things (“loathly larvae” as AC puts it).
No time to waste watching videos of psychics, but all TV psychics are frauds, as the icky things are scared off by klieg lights, and don’t show up for the try-outs, so the genuinely possessed seldom get booked.
Seriously, you are impressed with a fake psychic’s patter that includes “Is there someone in the house whose name begins with J?”
There are 26 letters, some are more common than others. Similarly, among any decent sized crowd, there are certain to be diabetics, owners of new cars, and friends of Stephanie (and even of Dorothy), just as there are certain to be at least two people with the same birthday.
For a recovering “Skeptic”, you are very gullible; study the work of “The Amazing Randi” for an antidote.

I hear that 9/100 people are diabetic. I don't know how many female people have a name beginning with J in a given 100 but let's say it's 15/100 at a guess. If you think he's a mentalist as you say then he chose a 'J' 15/100 and then a diabetic 9/100 accurately. Do the maths 15/100 x 9/100 = 135/10,000.

I'm gullible you say but in the same breath you're telling me that there are astral larvae who are scared off by TV studio lights? Unless you're joking?


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Jamie J Barter
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08/01/2019 12:10 am  

@dom :

I'm not too clear about what you're getting at: in the title and the OP you're skeptical and dismissive of ALL those whom you label "psychic-mediums"; you make no differential there at the start between those who are out-and-out shysters & mountebanks and those who might actually have some special esoteric ability along those lines.

"It occurs in certain rare cases that a very unusual degree of personal purity combined with integrity and force of character provides even the ignorant with a certain natural defence, and attracts into his aura only intelligent and beneficent entities." [...] Actually it occurred to me that I think that the modern term for what Crowley’s is discussing there is “channelling” which is pretty wacky.

What word do you think it would be better to use instead of "channelling" in order to make it less wacky? Which one do you think would convey the/ his meaning across better then?

I previously pointed out that Crowley himself had the greatest respect for the integrity and talents of those seeresses who conveyed messages to him from transmundane reality. Since your opinion of this appears to be that it is wacky, then your opinion of them --- Mary D'Esti Sturges, co-contributor to Magick, who channeled Ab-ul-diz; Roddie Minor, who did a similar thing with Amalantrah --- is presumably that they were all pretty wacky people too. And yet on the other hand you seem to think "people who communicate with the dead" are quite acceptable examples of "genuine ability" and that John Edwards is credible and seriously worthy of further investigation. Where is the line drawn between the two?

N Joy


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ignant666
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08/01/2019 12:25 am  

I’m gullible you say but in the same breath you’re telling me that there are astral larvae who are scared off by TV studio lights? Unless you’re joking?

https://youtu.be/02Ip22mnHS0


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Tiger
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08/01/2019 12:42 am  

Jealousy that he had to work for his psychical abilities?
Dion Fortune has said it’s better to work and gain psychic abilities than be born with them because the unfortunate unawake person with psychic abilities gets more confused by them .

If you do some work you might see The larvae you have attracted into your aura that seeks to find if there are real psychics . Once you begin to see it and find how it entered into you then you might gain a little siddha of insight and instead of thinking getting bigger is transformation; a whole other experience may arise .


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ignant666
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08/01/2019 1:03 am  

I don’t know how many female people have a name beginning with J in a given 100 but let’s say it’s 15/100 at a guess.

No need to guess- i thought you had been studying this stuff recently?

There are 26 letters in the alphabet. The odds (ignoring the fact that some letters may occur more often in names than others; "J" is certainly a more common initial than "X" or "Z") that a given person will have a given letter in either their first or last name are

1/26 + 1/26 = 2/26 = 1/13

Assuming that the large preponderance of women in attendance at performances by such folk reported by Crowley, Houdini and others has been ameliorated by greater male attendance, and that there are even numbers of men and women in the audience, the odds that there will be a woman with the initial "J" in a group of 100 are thus

1/2 * 1/13 = 1/26 added together 100 times = 50/13

With an audience of 26 or more people, the "mentalist" almost always proves his/her "psychic powers" when a woman with the initial "J" gasps and/or proves the ability of most folks to do simple math when anyone is impressed by this. With a couple hundred in the audience, there should be multiple hits. When you allow for middle names, the odds are of course even more on the side of the "mentalist"/"psychic" that this "miraculous psychic vision" will be correct.

This is just basic 19th century "rope the rubes" carnival fake-psychic stuff- how can anyone still fall for it?


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dom
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08/01/2019 10:47 pm  

@jbarter

Where is the line drawn between the two?

Good question. I guess the modern channelers are not surrounded by educated sceptics such as AC who would call all out their bullsh1t. That's what Ignant is trying to do now.

@ignant666

“J” is certainly a more common initial than “X” or “Z”) that a given person will have a given letter in either their first or last name are
1/26 + 1/26 = 2/26 = 1/13

…………………………….
Assuming that the large preponderance of women in attendance at performances by such folk reported by Crowley...............….1/2 * 1/13 = 1/26 added together 100 times = 50/13
With an audience of 26 or more people, the “ment

Conveniently ignored my stats on J and then diabetic (and on reflection add the 3rd probability of car salesman in family).


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Jamie J Barter
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09/01/2019 12:22 am  

@dom :

"Where is the line drawn between the two?" Good question. [...]
But I wasn't asking you "what ignant is trying to do now" --- I suppose what I should have asked was something more along the lines of: "where is it that you, in your skeptical reasoning, draw the line between e.g. people who communicate with (i.e. receive intelligible transmissions from) Messrs. Ab-ul-diz and Amalantrah who are "wacky", and those other people who communicate with (i.e. receive transmissions from) "the dead" (albeit "a la Sixth Sense movie"), but who in your reckoning apparently have "genuine ability" and for which there seems to be "very strong evidence"?

... who would call all out their bullsh1t
Such as, what exactly does this coy mealy-mouthed alphanumeric namby pamby P.C. bullshit at the end of this inelegantly phrased statement here supposed to mean, dom old fruit?

Not afraid to call a spade a shovel and fucking vice versa,
N Joy


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ignant666
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09/01/2019 12:42 am  

Googling produced some info about david's latest hero.

Surprise!, surprise! He is a known and proven fraud, who uses the "cold reading" techniques i described above, plus plain old cheating, and most important, edits out his many misses from shows like the one david is so impressed by, since he is not very good at this good old fashioned carnival scam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/john_edward_hustling_the_bereaved

I would advise david to avoid playing games of chance any passing fairs or carnivals, as the warmer weather eventually arrives in Merrie Olde England; i know david is a country-dweller, and those crafty old carnies are looking for easy marks like him.

Also, another tip: if an old gypsy woman tells you that your money is cursed, and to take it all out of the bank and wrap it in her handkerchief for a blessing- it is possible she may not be entirely honest.


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Tiger
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09/01/2019 1:37 pm  

if an old gypsy woman tells you that your money is cursed, and to take it all out of the bank and wrap it in her handkerchief for a blessing- it is possible she may not be entirely honest.

and possibly quite true that she may not be honest for those
doing the rituals, gestures, spells, words, incantations, invoking, evoking and manifesting the 3rd circuit reality tunnel
and it may be possible in a 7th circuit reality tunnel that the apparition was an agent for change .

so better have wits about you if you don't wanna smack down on the ground.


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dom
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09/01/2019 6:19 pm  

Hey ignant666 typing that mediums name along with the word "fraud" in a Google search engine, that's called confirmation bias.

Bad stats.


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ignant666
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09/01/2019 6:47 pm  

Um, no, david, that is not an example of "confirmation bias", you very silly person.

It was a rapid search strategy for finding the evidence i knew would be there that he is a scam-artist and huckster. How did i know this? Because he is a "psychic medium" who appears on TV. Presumably, i might have come up empty if if he hadn't been exposed as a fraud, but of course he has been, several times.

It would be an example of "confirmation bias" if you were retain your belief he is not a fraud in the face of the ample evidence that he is just that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Again, stay away from carnivals, fairs, and people who have just found a diamond ring in the street.


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dom
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09/01/2019 11:50 pm  

@ignant666

That guy isn't "my hero" i've never heard of him. Maybe you identified him as a fraud who makes successful wild guesses now and again. (As Jamie Barter said) how do we determine between fraudsters and non-fraudsters in that field? I take it that you're not possessed by Los? You're not saying that it's all baloney, right?


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ignant666
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10/01/2019 12:13 am  

All "psychics" are frauds, delusional, or possessed. It is all baloney with nothing whatever to do with the Great Work.

The ones who go on TV are engaged in showbiz, so of course they are all frauds. All non-morons over the age of 12 or so know this. There are plenty of morons to fill up the TV audiences and buy their books etc.


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Shiva
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10/01/2019 2:16 am  

D (quoting JB): how do we determine between fraudsters and non-fraudsters in that field?

It's called trial-and-error. We keep notes on predictions made, then check them out for validity after an appropriate waiting period (depending on the context of the message).

For example, the prediction, "You are going to die," will not qualify because that's true of everyone.

But, "You will have unexpected money in less than 6 days," is verifiable.

What about AC's prediction that the 4th publication of AL would destroy civilization? I'd say it's going fast, but the timespan might require a few generations of medium-observers.

Ig: The ones who go on TV are engaged in showbiz ...

And if they have any sort of reliable predictive ability, then they're exercising their lesser siddhis, which is counterproductive to the Great Work.


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Jamie J Barter
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10/01/2019 7:35 pm  

@dom :

That guy isn’t “my hero” i’ve never heard of him.
Please clarify though: isn’t this guy (not your hero) the same guy as John Edward, whom you’ve already included a videoclip of despite never having heard of him?

(As said) how do we determine between fraudsters and non-fraudsters in that field?
Yes, you’ve already somehow determined a basic division, as I've demonstrated twice now (i.e., you’ve drawn a line twixt the “wacky” channellers and “genuine” communicators with the dead) but regarding which, you are continuing to dodge giving a proper answer as to how you arrived at that. Have you ever thought of becoming a politician, dom? Wouldn’t it be easier and perhaps save some time if you were to just put your hand up and say “I don’t really know what I’m talking about”? 🙂

@ignant666 :

All “psychics” are frauds, delusional, or possessed.
But are we (i.e. Thelemites & others) meant to include e.g. Rose (aka Ouarda the Seer) in this blanket condemnation, who told Crowley that “they are waiting for you”, about the preliminaries for the reception of AL, and also channelled corrections to it e.g. the missing parts to I:26 and I:60 (etc)?

@Shiva :

What about AC’s prediction that the 4th publication of AL would destroy civilization
This might have been metaphorical though, as in the sense of “the world was destroyed by fire” at the Equinox of the Gods that occurred immediately prior to the reception of AL.

And if they have any sort of reliable predictive ability, then they’re exercising their lesser siddhis, which is counterproductive to the Great Work.
This is probably the case. But it can’t be totally ruled out that such manifestations may also be part of the individual’s True Will. Also siddhis, both lesser and greater ones, tend to come and go according to the exercise of their own individual proclivities I’ve always found (and much to the intense disappointment of my lower self)

N Joy


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ignant666
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10/01/2019 8:01 pm  

By "psychic", i meant folks like david's non-hero, who purport to communicate with people's dead relatives.

I should have used david's formulation "psychic-mediums", or just said "Anyone who claims to communicate with the dead is a fraud, delusional, or possessed."

Dead people do not exist anymore, and do not talk to anyone.


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dom
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10/01/2019 11:04 pm  

Shakespeare nailed it with Hamlet;

"siddhi or not siddhi?".

@Jbarter

Didn't Crolwey "test" these disembodied beings using stats and somehow with cabballah i.e. gematria?

@ignant666

"all tv psychics are frauds"? Behold the open mind.


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ignant666
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11/01/2019 12:19 am  

david: "Some TV psychics must be real, surely!" Behold the mark, ripe for the plucking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading


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dom
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11/01/2019 12:27 am  

david: “Some TV psychics must be real, surely!” Behold the mark, ripe for the plucking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

I see what you're saying and to ally this with JBarter's question about legitimacy e.g. Rose Kelly had no desire to be a showbiz stage-medium, it was a very private affair with no gain.


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Jamie J Barter
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11/01/2019 12:36 am  

@dom :

Shakespeare nailed it with Hamlet;
“siddhi or not siddhi?”

Oh, "Boom tish" there!

Didn’t Crolwey “test” these disembodied beings using stats and with cabballah i.e. gematria?
Yes he did. The Method of Science, Aim of Religion & all that. And this goes to show... what, in your reasoning?

Meanwhile, of course, for the third time now we're all still waiting for your explanation re. how dead men talking is OK in your book but discarnate intelligences are outer wacksville.

Observe ignant's last reply, if you will, for a model answer to a request for clarification --- clear, concise & complete, with no need for ancillary requests for further information or elaboration. Viddy well, little brother, viddy well: look & learn!

With you, however, we have now reached the oh so familiar stage where you decide to answer a repeatedly offered question with another question of your own, of dubious tangential relevance to, whilst still managing to avoid, the central issue. Next time I predict your gambit will be the one where you declare you suddenly don't quite understand what I'm asking & will I tell you what I meant on some largely irrelevant sub-point from 2 or 3 posts back. And throughout, all the while everyone still waiting, waiting, with unbated breath.

Can I "read" you or can I read you here, dom?! Am I not so incredibly... psychic!?
N Joy


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Tiger
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11/01/2019 1:27 am  

A dead Zen master my communicated to me
that chasing after Siddhi’s takes time away from the Great Work
but some times they just arise
but give it no mind
because if you do
it gets crowded, everyone dead and alive are in your head
and you really get to hear what they really think of you .

Well I thanked my dead cat zen master and off he went to where he doesn’t exist and talk; and left me in my delusional space .


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Tiger
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11/01/2019 2:15 am  

oh and he also told me hat the dead that dream their alive are beings too .


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Shiva
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11/01/2019 6:25 am  

JB: Also siddhis, both lesser and greater ones, tend to come and go ...

Yes, it's strange isn't it?

Meanwhile, of course, for the third time now we’re all still waiting for your explanation re. how dead men talking is OK in your book but discarnate intelligences are outer wacksville.

See Los's Blog.


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Jamie J Barter
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13/01/2019 7:13 pm  

@Shiva :

See Los’s Blog.
Groan! Do I have to? If I want a quick laugh, there's got to be better places to go to...
Would you know at least which bit of it?

Dom --- still waiting & unabated...

oyN J


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dom
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19/01/2019 11:26 am  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24kpAClYmmQ

Pretty good interview in which Randii also debunks Geller's spoon bending magic with a demonstration.


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Tiger
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19/01/2019 2:26 pm  

The Magus focuses on the Pylon
Conjuring a servitor
who assumes the opening of the gates .
Following the Adept that dances and glides between the rain drops;
the servitor gets drenched .

purrs


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dom
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19/01/2019 7:31 pm  

The Magus focuses on the Pylon
Conjuring a servitor
who assumes the opening of the gates .
Following the Adept that dances and glides between the rain drops;
the servitor gets drenched .
purrs

Is that a quote from something?


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ignant666
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19/01/2019 8:08 pm  

From The Complete Works Of Tiger, i believe; forget which volume.


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ignant666
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26/02/2019 7:44 pm  

An interesting discussion of a group of scam-busters who seed fake Facebook profiles, to catch fake psychics, who these days harvest audience members' Facebook info to fuel "hot reading"-based fake "communications with the dead":

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/magazine/psychics-skeptics-facebook.html

For some reason, the link resolves to the above image; clicking it produces no result. However, if you right-click, and select "open in new tab", the article will open


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Tiger
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27/02/2019 2:04 am  

just another way for the dead to feel alive vicariously


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