What does "BABALON"...
 

What does "BABALON" have to do with "Thelema"?  

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ignant666
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27/05/2019 11:15 pm  

Reading through the generally rather vapid subreddit devoted to Thelema, i noticed a recent post ( https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/bq5dlq/babalon_is_enochian/) making a point of which i had never been aware: "BABALON" is Enochian for "wicked".

This led me to think a bit about something i've been wondering for a while: what does "BABALON", a figure never mentioned in AL and wholly derived from the New Testament, have to do with "Thelema"? Why do Thelemites seeking to balance the obvious phallocentrism (somewhat of an understatement really, more like phallic totalism) of Crowley's Thelema end up with this "Mother Of Whoredom" figure, rather than the obvious alternative, Nuit, who after all has a whole chapter in AL?

It is maybe understandable why this was so with the Bible- and adultery-obsessed AC, and of course a lot of his sexual, um, issues are enshrined in his OTO, and many of those that followed (see, eg, the Gnostic Mass). Why do latter-day Thelemites, born in a more sexually liberated era, and seldom raised so strictly on a Bible diet, follow suit? Is it simply mindless aping of The Demon Crowley, against his express instructions, at least as to A.'. A.'. work?

A related question with a perhaps equally obvious answer: why is the unicursal hexagram so widely used as a symbol of Thelema, rather than the obvious alternative, "The Five Pointed Star, with a Circle in the Middle, & the circle is Red" [AL I:60], which, it is strongly implied, is the symbol of "all ... who are of us"?


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dom
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28/05/2019 7:04 pm  

This led me to think a bit about something i’ve been wondering for a while: what does “BABALON”, a figure never mentioned in AL and wholly derived from the New Testament, have to do with “Thelema"?

Did you consider the reference to wickedness and Scarlet Woman 3:43 - 3:45?

Let the Scarlet Woman beware! If pity and compassion and tenderness visit her heart; if she leave my work to toy with old sweetnesses; then shall my vengeance be known. I will slay me her child: I will alienate her heart: I will cast her out from men: as a shrinking and despised harlot shall she crawl through dusk wet streets, and die cold and an-hungered.
But let her raise herself in pride! Let her follow me in my way! Let her work the work of wickedness! Let her kill her heart! Let her be loud and adulterous! Let her be covered with jewels, and rich garments, and let her be shameless before all men!
Then will I lift her to pinnacles of power: then will I breed from her a child mightier than all the kings of the earth. I will fill her with joy: with my force shall she see & strike at the worship of Nu: she shall achieve Hadit.

and earlier 1:15;

Now ye shall know that the chosen priest & apostle of infinite space is the prince-priest the Beast; and in his woman called the Scarlet Woman is all power given. They shall gather my children into their fold: they shall bring the glory of the stars into the hearts of men.
For he is ever a sun, and she a moon. But to him is the winged secret flame, and to her the stooping starlight.


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Jamie J Barter
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28/05/2019 9:47 pm  

@ignant666 :

This led me to think a bit about something i’ve been wondering for a while: what does “BABALON”, a figure never mentioned in AL and wholly derived from the New Testament, have to do with “Thelema”?
Doesn't A.C. write in one of his Comments (or somewhere else) that Babalon was the "secret name" by which he came ("at last") to know Nuit? (see AL I:22). In that sense, they would then be referring to the same thing, which would then have a lot to do with "Thelema".

A related question with a perhaps equally obvious answer: why is the unicursal hexagram so widely used as a symbol of Thelema
Could you please instance some of the occasions when it is used as a "symbol" (i.e., a representative stand-in) of (for) Thelema, as although "widely" used I can't for the life of me think of one at the moment!? Or, in fact, any direct symbols figurative of the concept of Thelema...

@dom :

Did you consider the reference to wickedness and Scarlet Woman 3:43 – 3:45?
Conversely to the above, Babalon (156) is not the same thing as the Scarlet Woman (667) unless one considers the latter to refer to a much lower (mortal) analogue. Also, there is a lot to be said for the fact that the Scarlet Woman (like the Beast) also refers to an "office" (as in position, not the place where people go to work).

Norma N Joy Conquest


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christibrany
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28/05/2019 11:21 pm  

@Jamie

For what it's worth, in my personal practice I 'somehow' came upon identifying Babalon with or as part of Nuit as well. It seems since there are so many references to the the holy 'trinity' of Nuit, Hadit and RHK per AL and in other places, as well as their mention during RESH, that it 'fit' to view babalon as a facet of Nuit. If nuit is infinite space, and the 'ultimate' feminine in Thelema, then Babalon would be a part of her. Just like perhaps Ra would be part of Hadit?


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christibrany
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28/05/2019 11:32 pm  

I state the above in a purely correspondence-based or theme-based way. I am not saying they are the same, I am saying that one concept is greater so it seems could encompass a part of the Babalon concept..hard to explain?


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Jamie J Barter
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29/05/2019 12:04 am  

I think I see what you're getting at here, ig (even though your actual post seems to have [temporarily] dematerialised from sight).

You're thinking of a "symbol of Thelema" as something which, when people see it, puts them in mind of the whole A.C. 'universe' with all of its own distinctively diverse symbolism, unique characters and divinities, etc., which could collectively be summarised under the associative term "Thelema". Other similar symbols in addition to the Unicursal Hexagram could be: the Mark of the Beast, the various constructions within Liber 231, the image of the woman girt with a sword on The Equinox masthead, etc... Whereas for my part I was taking "symbol of Thelema" far more literally, in the sense of an image/ (hiero)glyph of the theory & practice behind "Do What Thou Wilt": being the discovery and carrying out of one's true will. For which as I said, there doesn't seem to actually be a symbol, with the possible exception of the numeric '93'.

Chris seems to recognize the correspondence between Nuit and Babalon as well, but given that (according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a 'secret name' of Nuit, would they not (even more so than Babalon being "a part" of her, i.e. Nuit) be actually undifferentiated & identical in that esoterical sense of sharing the same Name, i.e. identity? One is revealed however and the other is not. (no pun intended)

Z Joy


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ignant666
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29/05/2019 12:45 am  

Attempting to re-post this vanished post, which originally appeared after christibrany's post #113426, and then vanished when i tried to edit it:

The Scarlet Woman isn't Nuit- Nuit speaks of her in the third person. As Jamie says, Babalon isn't the Scarlet Woman.

Or is she? Babalon, the Thelemic construct, very clearly is the Christian figure of evil Babylon, the Scarlet Woman of Revelations:

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So: once again, Babalon can't be Nuit, probably is the Scarlet Woman, isn't mentioned directly in AL, and is wholly rooted in the quoted chapter of the New Testament. Crowley was raised by a Plymouth Brethren, Revelations-obsessed mother; most of us weren't. Why is this Christian image so popular among Thelemites?

The passage david cites in AL III: 43-5 is one of the most problematic for anyone who wants to argue that AC is not the author of AL- it so clearly panders to his sexual desires, and seeks to give his masochistic desire to be abased and cuckolded by his wife the force of a divine decree.

It is also one of the clearest answers to the question i posed a while back about why few women post here- few women are likely to be interested in a religion/philosophy/method that reduces them to the status of animated fucktoys compelled by deities to act out men's sexual fantasies, as in this passage.

JB: As to the prevalence of the unicursal hexagram as a symbol of Thelema, while i realize this is far from probative, here are two examples from the current front page of the reddit Thelema group:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/bnpoma/got_a_couple_new_tattoos/
[one of the "Top Posts Of he Month" as i post this]
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelema/comments/br9a8c/have_any_other_secret_thelemites_here_had_an/
[First comment in toto: "I was talking to a new acquaintance and I mentioned in passing that I was studying the writings of Aleister Crowley. He just said "dude" and lifted the leg of his pants to reveal a unicursal hexagram tattoo."]


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ignant666
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29/05/2019 12:59 am  

With apologies for double posting, but i am replying to Jamie's post replying to mine, that now appears before mine due to Choronzonic Forces: Bingo, yes, that is what i meant- a symbol of affiliation equivalent to the cross for Xians, the star of David for Jews, or the pentagram for Wiccans.


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Tiger
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29/05/2019 4:59 am  

The Beast
Spoken of in the Apocalypse

Move along now
nothing to see here

next
A depiction of the Virgin Mary impregnated
by a stalwart deity
juxtaposed to her husband


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belmurru
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29/05/2019 12:02 pm  

A good starting point for the etiology of the Thelemic Babalon is the 12th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice (Dec. 4-5, 1909), with commentary (preferably the latest edition). Crowley didn't write the name as "Babalon" until the end of 10th Aethyr (December 6). In the 12th Aethyr it is Babylon from the Apocalypse, and all the biblical allusions are made clear.

BABALON (spelled as such in Enochian characters) occurs in the Sixth Enochian Call; of course the GD, and AC, pronounced it "babalonu". In his 1904 edition of the Goetia, in the Enochian conjuration he composed, he writes it out as such in "Ye Generall Curse" and "Ye Greter Curse" (4 times). The word spelled in Enochian BABALOND, pronounced GD-style as "babalonuda", means "harlot", and occurs near the end of the Call of the 30 Aethyrs. In AC's version in Equinox I,8, p. 126 it is spelled "babalanuda".


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dom
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29/05/2019 9:46 pm  

Let her be loud and adulterous!

Ignant this was aimed at servile (post) Victorian woman. It doesn't mean literally to become a cuckold but to stand up for themselves (girt with a sword before me) and loosen up as it were.... in their case,...literally. Well, that's what happened in the ensuing 20th century (in the West at least).


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XON
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29/05/2019 10:54 pm  

A related question with a perhaps equally obvious answer: why is the unicursal hexagram so widely used as a symbol of Thelema, rather than the obvious alternative, “The Five Pointed Star, with a Circle in the Middle, & the circle is Red” [AL I:60], which, it is strongly implied, is the symbol of “all … who are of us”?

Maybe the inclusion of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot contributed to its adoption? What's the obvious answer and alternative?
The quoted AL I:60 is a good choice. A specific phrase written down by Ouarda the Seer, I believe.
How about Waratah-Blossoms?
Commentary from Liber CCCXXXIII regarding Waratah-Blossoms: There is only one symbol, but this symbol has many names: of those names BABALON is the holiest. It is the name referred to in Liber Legis, 1, 22.

Waratah would be regarding Laylah in some manner. Scarlet Woman/Babalon/Queen of Heaven related anyhow.
The back cover of the The Book of Perfection has a five pointed star with a red circle in the middle.

My will is fate.


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ignant666
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29/05/2019 11:55 pm  

mal: The obvious alternative symbol is in the passage i (and you!) quoted.

As to the obvious reason for the unpopularity of Nuit as a female deity among Thelemites, and greater popularity of the Scarlet Hoor (as pronounced by my great-grandmother) Babalon, see

https://youtu.be/wBIC8JTQMMQ


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XON
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30/05/2019 12:21 am  

I'd not heard of this Nuit unpopularity among Thelemites. Is this related to something in regards to a men's club acting boyishly as the video suggests?

An ungrateful tragedy after the world just got a shameless look at one of her mysteries.

Thems the BREAKS.

My will is fate.


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Tiger
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30/05/2019 1:47 am  

The Beast
was just putting
the word out .
You don’t need to pay the church;
you don’t even need to listen to them .
Find truth for yourselves
and yes you don’t even need to pay them for a license.

And Revelation was set in motion .


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Tiger
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30/05/2019 2:24 am  

And the word was no longer secret .


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Tiger
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christibrany
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30/05/2019 5:27 am  

I too have never heard of Nuit being unpopular, especially since I am praising her every time I do RESH along with the other buddies.
I find that women and men are equal but different and so I don't feel the need for feminism nor chauvinism.


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dom
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30/05/2019 8:00 pm  

Apologies to Ignant I misread the cuckold point.

@jamiebarter
Babalon is part of Nuit? What is that a reference to?


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Jamie J Barter
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30/05/2019 9:16 pm  

@dom :

Babalon is part of Nuit? What is that a reference to?

The reference was to Chris on page one, where he originally wrote:

For what it’s worth, in my personal practice I ‘somehow’ came upon identifying Babalon with or as part of Nuit as well. … it ‘fit’ to view babalon as a facet of Nuit. If nuit is infinite space, and the ‘ultimate’ feminine in Thelema, then Babalon would be a part of her.

I then responded

Chris seems to recognize the correspondence between Nuit and Babalon as well, but given that (according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a ‘secret name’ of Nuit, would they not (even more so than Babalon being “a part” of her, i.e. Nuit) be actually undifferentiated & identical in that esoterical sense of sharing the same Name, i.e. identity?

So the query (if that's what it is) should perhaps have been addressed to @christibrany, not to me.

@ignant666, could you explain why & in what way you think the image of Nuit seems to be less popular than that of Babalon in general?

An avatar of Babalon appears to be that of a sexually active woman "up for it", by no means chaste, therefore somewhere between the feminine archetypes of High Priestess and The Empress in terms of experience, and similar perhaps to the description in The Book of the Law of them as "magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them" (II:24)? Does anybody disagree or have any refinements they can add to this?

Also, would anybody know the exact circumstances whereby Crowley came to know Babalon as the secret name of Nuit --- It's not mentioned in any of the usual sources (biographies)?

@tiger :

And the word was no longer secret.
No, it was written & concealed --- I mean, revealed.

Z Joy


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dom
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30/05/2019 11:43 pm  

@jamiebarter

I meant this;

(according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a ‘secret name’ of Nuit,

Where does AC say that?


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ignant666
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31/05/2019 12:02 am  

I am clearly stating a subjective impression, and certainly can't prove the Babalon is a figure of more interest to Thelemites than Nuit.

That said:

Not great evidence perhaps, but compare the Nuit and Babalon articles in Thelemapedia: 294 and 3024 words respectively.

Or run the following pairs of terms through a search engine: "Nuit Thelema" and "Babalon Thelema". Compare numbers of hits containing either "Nuit" or "Babalon" in the page title. There are books, conferences and articles galore for Babalon, and very few such things for Nuit.


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Jamie J Barter
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31/05/2019 12:38 am  

@dom :

I meant this;
"(according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a ‘secret name’ of Nuit,"
Where does AC say that?

This, That, & their bruvver the Udder... Questions, questions, always questions!...?

Which when asked, I always try to answer politely if I can. But really, dom/david/ whatever your name is, you really must pay closer attention and occasionally re-read things over carefully before exciting yourself with typing out the first thing you can think of in the way of unnecessary queries. To paraphrase the sensationally late Alex Harvey, whatever can be next?

A little more than 24 hours ago, on the previous page (in post #113493) Mal perceptively indicated the answer to your question with his quote from The Bok of Lies Chapter 49, referring to the line "Seven letters hath Her holiest name; and it is BABALON" where Crowley gave the coment: "There is only one symbol, but this symbol has many names. Of those names BABALON is the holiest. It is the name referred to in Liber Legis I:22".

That should provide you with the answer to your query if you look therein closely enough. It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was 'BABALON' in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.'. A.'. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909).

@Ignant666 :

That said:
Yes, I see what you mean now. Rather damned curious, now you come to mention it! To use the jargon of ad-speak (as with competing washing powders) Babalon just must be somehow way more 'sexy' in the Thelemic marketplace than Nuit.

N Joy


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Tiger
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31/05/2019 4:34 am  

Hoor Ma Get it on
Priapus workin

————————
Ar Ma Gedd on
har məgiddô
loom up; mount

Patmos
fertility garden
notes
from a pipe
----------

oh
and bring to the fore
the terrible Mother whore
that loved ya, spanked ya
and spat you out
in time

but guard your mind
lest you let something
take a hold a it

even for a split second


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belmurru
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31/05/2019 10:05 am  

Jamie -

It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909).

Crowley only spelled it as such from that Vision and the Voice experience, after the 12th Aethyr (so December 5-6, 1909). See my post back a little -

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/what-does-babalon-have-to-do-with-thelema-2/#post-113449

Looking at the facsimiles of the Equinox at Keep Silence
https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/
I can't see that A:.A:. sigil being used at all in the first series, even after March 1910.


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belmurru
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31/05/2019 4:22 pm  

In response to Jamie et. al.

It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909)

In the Old Commentary (1909 to 1911, published in The Equinox I,7 (March, 1912), pp. 387-400a), commentary to verse I,22, he writes: “A promise – not yet fulfilled. [Since ((Sun) in (Sagittarius), An. V.) fulfilled.]” Sun in Sagittarius, An. V, = November-December 1909, referring to The Vision and the Voice.

Eshelman corroborates this in The Mystical & Magical System of the A.:A.: (3rd edition, 2000), p. 24 (my emphasis):

“On the front of this book is the Sigillum Sanctum Fraternitatis A.:A.: - the Holy Seal of the Fraternitatis A.:A.:. This Seal first appeared in Book IV, Part I (1911). It did not appear anywhere in the first volume (first ten numbers) of The Equinox.

I still haven't found an explicit "Babalon is the 'secret name' of Nuit" statement earlier than the commentary to the Book of Lies, in about 1920, although it is clear that this is what he means in the Old Commentary. But to a casual reader, who had never heard of Babalon in 1912, it would not have been apparent what that name was. Is the casual reader, who needs everything spelled out explicitly and unambiguously, our benchmark here?


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Shiva
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31/05/2019 5:08 pm  

Bab

Who?


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belmurru
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31/05/2019 5:45 pm  

In response to Jamie et. al.

It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909)

In the Old Commentary (1909 to 1911, published in The Equinox I,7 (March, 1912), pp. 387-400a), commentary to verse I,22, he writes: “A promise – not yet fulfilled. [Since ((Sun) in (Sagittarius), An. V.) fulfilled.]” Sun in Sagittarius, An. V, = November-December 1909, referring to The Vision and the Voice.

Eshelman corroborates this in The Mystical & Magical System of the A.:A.: (3rd edition, 2000), p. 24 (my emphasis):

“On the front of this book is the Sigillum Sanctum Fraternitatis A.:A.: - the Holy Seal of the Fraternitatis A.:A.:. This Seal first appeared in Book IV, Part I (1911). It did not appear anywhere in the first volume (first ten numbers) of The Equinox.

I still haven't found an explicit "Babalon is the 'secret name' of Nuit" statement earlier than the commentary to the Book of Lies, in about 1920, although it is clear that this is what he means in the Old Commentary. But to a casual reader, who had never heard of Babalon in 1912, it would not have been apparent what that name was. Is the casual reader, who needs everything spelled out explicitly and unambiguously, our benchmark here?


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Tiger
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31/05/2019 6:09 pm  

"to a casual reader, who had never heard of Babalon in 1912, it would not have been apparent what that name was. Is the casual reader, who needs everything spelled out explicitly and unambiguously, our benchmark here?"

Well i wonder
Crowley must of had a target audience in mind; particularly Theosophists, Rosicrucians, Freemasons as well as People of the Book .

Poetry and the Arts have a different means than spelling everything out explicitly and unambiguously;
though such setups can be favorable or unfavorable for an Apokalypsis.


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dom
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31/05/2019 8:12 pm  

Maybe Jack Parsons has something to do with the 'elevation' of Babalon over Nuit.


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Tiger
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31/05/2019 9:48 pm  

"“Lo!
I gather up every spirit that is pure and weave him into my vesture of flame.
I lick up the lives of men,
and their souls sparkle from mine eyes.
I am the mighty sorceress, the lust of the spirit.”

Quote from Where ?

"the work of Crowley, Parsons, Grant and much of the exploration that followed during the 20th Century contributed to the ‘breaking of the waters’ in terms of her birth, but the definitive magical models and formulas that would enable a full flowering and manifestation of her magic is still not yet fully formulated.”

Adam’s first wife, created equal and simultaneous with him from the same earth. But he won’t acknowledge it, and demands Her submission. She finds the Word of Power deep inside Herself and flies away. She becomes first a storm goddess, and then is, quite literally, demonised. Perceptions are split...

The re-purposing and re-framing of characters from Apocalypse / Revelations has an Aeonic function, but there is also a further and deeper meaning to this. Babalon riding the Beast matches the view held by some Tantric traditions that it is the Shakti which controls and directs the Kundalini, the evolutionary and magical force in humanity.
Apocalypse / Revelations can be seen, from this viewpoint, to be quite obviously describing the raising of Kundalini. The seven seals as the seven chakras, the three and a half days of stasis referring to the resting coiled Kundalini, the imagery of world-destruction is classically a common effect of the opening of the Third Eye (Eye of Shiva).
Also note the seven gates in the Inanna myth… "

https://wiccanrede.org/2016/04/the-coming-forth-of-babalon/


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dom
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01/06/2019 1:54 pm  

ATU Strength. Path of Teth. Woman calmly daring to grip lion's jaw and hold it firmly hence presumably taming said lion..


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ignant666
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02/06/2019 4:12 pm  

Perhaps, if it is not too much trouble, you could explain what this has to do with the topic, david?

As to the OT: Central to the mystical symbolism of "Babalon" in Thelema is that the 8=3 must give all into the "golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication" (Revelations 17:4). This concept, like everything about Babalon, is based on the Christian Bible's description of Babalon being "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (17:6). The Christian Holy Graal that was the wine-cup at the Last Supper, and then is used to catch Jesus' blood as he is crucified, becomes the Thelemic "cup of [Babalon's] whoredom"

Babalon is a "Whore" because she "refuseth none" and "hath yielded up herself to everything that liveth". But of course this is not at all what defines being a "whore". Actually, a "whore" is one who "refuseth" all who have not got the money. Since AC was a frequent customer of prostitutes, we cannot put this elision down to ignorance.

In The Vision and The Voice, AC says Babalon is Nuit's daughter ("my mother Nuit", 15th Aethyr).

In TBOL, we learn that Babalon is the secret name of Nuit mentioned in AL 1:22 (49 "Waratah-Blossoms", commentary). On the other hand, we learn in TBOL 11 "The Glow-Worm" that Babalon and Chaos are the "below the abyss" equivalents of Nuit and Hadit; the commentary to 49 refers to this as "the common or orthodox theogeny", and attempts to resolve the seeming contradiction by saying "There is only one symbol, but this symbol has many names: of those names, BABALON is the holiest." Why the "below the abyss" name of this "symbol" is the "holiest" is not made clear.


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belmurru
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02/06/2019 5:23 pm  

AC would have known that "whore" has no necessary connotation of a working prostitute. It just means a slut, a lascivious woman, or an adulteress. Skeat's etymological dictionary, which he often referred to, already gave what is considered still today the accepted etymology. See here, page 709 -

https://archive.org/details/etymologicaldict00skeauoft/page/708

Interestingly, the spelling "hoor", reflecting a pronounciation still to be heard in some places, is given in Skeat. Crowley can not have missed that (and all that it implies about being a whore).


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belmurru
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02/06/2019 5:27 pm  

Remember also Crowley's argument for refuting Mudd's argument that he and Leah should wed, so that she could be technically an adulteress (with the Beast), thus fulfilling the Book of the Law.

Crowley said that "Adultery no more implies marriage than prostitution implies commerce" (I paraphrase). I don't know his reasoning, and have always wondered about it, but it shows that he didn't consider a whore to be equivalent to a working girl.

EDITED -

There was a whole thread on this argument in 2014 here on LAShTAL, started by me, not surprisingly -

https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/was-mudd-or-crowley-right/

He actually wrote "whoredom", not prostitution, so the disconnect between being a whore and being a working prostitute is even clearer. I suspect he must have studied the etymology of the word to be so categorical about it; the same thing must apply to adulterous, which is in the semantic range of whore and harlot, although calling an unmarried woman adulterous seems wrong.


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dom
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02/06/2019 5:49 pm  

Belmuru is the Hoor in Ra-Hoor-Khuit the same thing?

@Ignant AC uses Babalon in his Tarot Atu for path of Teth and I'm making reference to the old school ATU of Teth. AC transformed 'Strength' into 'Lust.'


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ignant666
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02/06/2019 6:10 pm  

Fair enough, belmurru, but the OED gives the meaning you mention only as definition "b"; definition "a" is "A woman who prostitutes herself for hire; a prostitute, harlot", attested since 1100. Despite the etymology you cite, the earliest use of the looser version you propose dates from more than a hundred years later (1205).

david: Lust is Atu XI, which is Justice in the Waite deck. Strength is VIII. He has not merely changed the name and imagery of the card, but its position and number ("The Naples Arrangement"). Thus, i think it is difficult to interpret Babalon through the "Strength" card's imagery. She has not merely tamed the Lion (which has become the biblical Beast), but is riding upon it, and controlling it with reins (that, curiously, are connected to a bit that is not in the mouth of any of the seven heads (granted that a seven-bit bridle would be a complicated thing indeed)).

As to you query as to "hoor" as a variant or archaic pronunciation of "whore" and Ra-Hoor-Khuit, i sincerely hope you are joking. One is English/Scottish, the other Egyptian; they are also separated by a couple thousand years.


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ignant666
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02/06/2019 6:14 pm  

Fair enough, belmurru, but the OED gives the meaning you mention only as definition "b"; definition "a" is "A woman who prostitutes herself for hire; a prostitute, harlot", attested since 1100. Despite the etymology you cite, the earliest use of the looser version you propose dates from more than a hundred years later (1205).

david: Lust is Atu XI, which is Justice in the Waite deck. Strength is VIII. He has not merely changed the name and imagery of the card, but its position and number ("The Naples Arrangement"). Thus, i think it is difficult to interpret Babalon through the "Strength" card's imagery. She has not merely tamed the Lion (which has become the biblical Beast), but is riding upon it, and controlling it with reins (that, curiously, are connected to a bit that is not in the mouth of any of the seven heads (granted that a seven-bit bridle would be a complicated thing indeed)).

As to your query as to "hoor" as a variant or archaic pronunciation of "whore" and Ra-Hoor-Khuit, i sincerely hope you are joking. One is English/Scottish, the other Egyptian; they are also separated by a couple thousand years.

My great-grandmother who said "hoor" for "whore" was born and raised in southeastern Ohio, when it was still not long from being the frontier. Her father was a river-boat pilot on the Muskingum River; his first job involved shooting at Indians from the bow of the boat.


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Tiger
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02/06/2019 8:47 pm  

“610
coupling point, place of junction
kephera
lioness sekhet is the vehicle of the force of leo
lion serpent, teth glyph of the spermatozoon
mechanism
woman dominant, bridling and directing the insensate passions .
the magical formula-kala is thus To Mega Therion

The name of Temphioth should be vibrated in the key of 'E' with a roaring, hissing explosive force behind it. This is the root vibration (bija mantra) of the female . “
Kenneth Grant -Night side of Eden - Temphioth starting pg201

The powers of this tunnel are the ability to become one with primitive limbic instincts, to become one with our erotic sensations, the ability to live with intensity and passion. The going becomes reality as we ourselves become the path, the central essence of our own creative acts. This tunnel grants great physical vitality, with a positive personal electricity and magnetism that can be used to create, to bless, and to heal. Here also is the ability to channel potentially dangerous life energies, as do cult devotees who dance in ecstasy with venomous snakes and take their protection from harm as a sign of beatitude and grace, as well as of proper centering and at-one-ness in the moment, when (and if) they are not fatally bitten.
Linda Falorio
http://www.shadowtarot.net/sht19.asp


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dom
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02/06/2019 10:20 pm  

david: Lust is Atu XI, which is Justice in the Waite deck. Strength is VIII. He has not merely changed the name and imagery of the card, but its position and number (“The Naples Arrangement”). Thus, i think it is difficult to interpret Babalon through the “Strength” card’s imagery. She has not merely tamed the Lion (which has become the biblical Beast), but is riding upon it, and controlling it with reins (that, curiously, are connected to a bit that is not in the mouth of any of the seven heads (granted that a seven-bit bridle would be a complicated thing indeed)).

So AC decided to place Adjustment/Justice in Lamed?

Right on.


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belmurru
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02/06/2019 10:49 pm  

Dom -

So AC decided to place Adjustment/Justice in Lamed?

No, it's complicated.

The original order of the tarot that the GD used - generally called "Tarot de Marseille" - has Fortitude or Strength at XI.
The Cipher Manuscript of the GD used the Sefer Yetzirah Hebrew letter attributions to correspond to tarot trumps - "Atouts", Egyptianized to "Atus". The Sefer Yetzirah of course doesn't mention tarot trumps, but it does assign the 22 Hebrew letters to classical elements, planets, and Zodiac signs. The Golden Dawn took this system over, with a few adjustments.

The French system of Levi et al. put Kaph at XI-Fortitude (the Fool is Shin, Aleph is Magician), but the Cipher Manuscript started with Fool as Aleph, and therefore Lamed, Sefer Yetzirah's Libra, was Fortitude/Strength.

The iconography bothered the author of the Cipher Manuscript, since Libra/Lamed is clearly Justice, the Scales, while Fortitude shows a woman taming a lion, which should be Leo (Teth).

Thus the GD transposed Libra with Leo, Strength with Justice, XI with VIII.

This is the first "loop" of the "double loop" that convinced Crowley of the rightness of switching Tzaddi with Heh.

That is, Leo and Libra "revolve" around Virgo, and Aries (Heh) and Aquarius (Tzaddi) "revolve" around Pisces.

But in the Thoth Tarot Crowley goes back to the Tarot de Marseille order of trumps. He puts Strength-Fortitude-Lust back at XI, and Justice-Adjustment at VIII, while maintaining their Sefer Yetzirah attributions of Teth-Leo and Lamed-Libra, just as in the Golden Dawn.


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dom
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03/06/2019 2:44 am  

Thanks belmurru.


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Tiger
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03/06/2019 5:30 am  

Wild Loop
heh heh

Yah ee
got ta get it together

ha ha
ooh ooh
there it goes again

got to find it again
ooh got to keep on it

ha ha
yeah ee

Thanks Belmuru


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Jamie J Barter
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04/06/2019 12:34 am  

N.B., Psychoactive medicines should at all times be kept securely locked away in a cupboard out of reach of those for whom it would be rather unwise to partake of them...

N Joy


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ignant666
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04/06/2019 1:10 am  

Jamie: Your recent post made me heartily "LOL".

Such good advice, and i am sure not directed at anyone in particular.


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belmurru
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04/06/2019 6:27 pm  

Ignant, I asked Jim Eshelman if he had any observations about the Unicursal Hexagram with a rose in the middle having become the de facto symbol of Thelema. I opined that it must have happened in the 70s or even 80s, with that extra card in the Thoth Tarot of the time. I didn't see it as jewelry, in silver, until '93 or '94, in either Cambridge MA or Greenwich Village, NYC respectively (can't remember which was first, I bought both of them, I would guess it was Cambridge).

He responded that it was a good question, and he supposes that people saw it in either Book of Thoth or the Tarot, and it looked unique and cool and was associated exclusively with Crowley, so they adopted it and it became popular. This is "cultural ignorance", because it actually predates Crowley and is where he got it, in a Golden Dawn 4=7 paper.

I think that is consistent with my explanation, although I don't know the 4=7 paper, and whether it has the rose there or not.

The reason I asked Eshelman is because he was a disciple of Phyllis Seckler and has been around long enough to have seen these changes first hand.


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ignant666
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04/06/2019 7:33 pm  

Good golly Moses, thanks you, belmurru, for going above and beyond, and asking an actual genuine A.'. A.'. person with credentials that are un-Mottled, as it were.

I think it was even later than you suggest it might have been, and about when you say you first spotted it in the wild, which coincides with my memories. I don't ever recall seeing jewelry or anything else with unicursal hexagrams until the '90s. Magickal Childe and its successors always had a couple Thelemic bits in the '70s-'80s, but they were usually seven-pointed stars, of both the "fat" (A.'. A.'. sigil/Dee), and "skinny" ("Mark Of The Beast"), styles, or else "eye of Horus" designs.

I put the rising popularity of the unicursal hexagram down to use of it as a "secondary sign" by the (c)OTO (along with the lamen they bought from the UK bankruptcy folks), and also down to philo-Judaism among Thelemites, what with all the Hebrew letters, and Zohars and what-not. I always aspired to be Jewish as a child- they got more holidays, and learned the Hebrew alphabet instead of hearing terrifying stories on weekends while the grown-ups did that creepy stuff before the cocktail party at the priest/rabbi's house.

Your mention of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot "of the time" causes me to feel old (which i am). The (c) '86 Swiss deck, featuring this card, and a very nicely colored "Smith-Waite Centennial Edition" deck (c)2015 (a birthday present from the estimable JOe X, Primate of Colorado of the Neo-American Church), and TBOT (Weiser, "This paperback edition 1974", bought brand spanking new, age 15; now, like myself, a bit used-looking) litter my study as we speak, as a result of recent points here.


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ignant666
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04/06/2019 7:46 pm  

Good golly Moses, thanks you, belmurru, for going above and beyond, and asking an actual genuine A.'. A.'. person with credentials that are un-Mottled, as it were.

I think it was even later than you suggest it might have been, and about when you say you first spotted it in the wild, which coincides with my memories. I don't ever recall seeing jewelry or anything else with unicursal hexagrams until the '90s. Magickal Childe and its successors always had a couple Thelemic bits in the '70s-'80s, but they were usually seven-pointed stars, of both the "fat" (A.'. A.'. sigil/Dee), and "skinny" ("Mark Of The Beast"), styles, or else "eye of Horus" designs.

I put the rising popularity of the unicursal hexagram down to use of it as a "secondary sign" by the (c)OTO (along with the lamen they bought from the UK bankruptcy folks), and also down to philo-Judaism among Thelemites, what with all the Hebrew letters, and Zohars and what-not. I always aspired to be Jewish as a child- they got more holidays, and learned the Hebrew alphabet instead of hearing terrifying stories on weekends while the grown-ups did that creepy stuff before the cocktail party at the priest/rabbi's house.

Your mention of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot "of the time" causes me to feel old (which i am). The (c) '86 Swiss deck, featuring this card, and a very nicely colored "Smith-Waite Centennial Edition" deck (c)2015 (a birthday present from the estimable Joe X, Primate of Colorado of the Neo-American Church), and TBOT (Weiser, "This paperback edition 1974", bought brand spanking new, age 15; now, like myself, a bit used-looking) litter my study as we speak, as a result of recent points here.

This post has done the phantom "was visible in sidebar but now vanished from sidebar and forum views, yet subject to "duplicate post" error, after edits" thing. Perhaps this edit will appease the forum-gremlins, and now allow it to re-appear, or perhaps it will appear after my two earlier attempts to re-post as a new post (if so, see my point re epistemology and Hunting of the Snark after this happened to others).

It has now done it again after discovering and editing a new typo!!!!

Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!


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ignant666
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04/06/2019 7:53 pm  

Good golly Moses, thanks you, belmurru, for going above and beyond, and asking an actual genuine A.'. A.'. person with credentials that are un-Mottled, as it were.

I think it was even later than you suggest it might have been, and about when you say you first spotted it in the wild, which coincides with my memories. I don't ever recall seeing jewelry or anything else with unicursal hexagrams until the '90s. Magickal Childe and its successors always had a couple Thelemic bits in the '70s-'80s, but they were usually seven-pointed stars, of both the "fat" (A.'. A.'. sigil/Dee), and "skinny" ("Mark Of The Beast"), styles, or else "eye of Horus" designs.

I put the rising popularity of the unicursal hexagram down to use of it as a "secondary sign" by the (c)OTO (along with the lamen they bought from the UK bankruptcy folks), and also down to philo-Judaism among Thelemites, what with all the Hebrew letters, and Zohars and what-not. I always aspired to be Jewish as a child- they got more holidays, and learned the Hebrew alphabet instead of hearing terrifying stories on weekends while the grown-ups did that creepy stuff before the cocktail party at the priest/rabbi's house.

Your mention of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot "of the time" causes me to feel old (which i am). The (c) '86 Swiss deck, featuring this card, and a very nicely colored "Smith-Waite Centennial Edition" deck (c)2015 (a birthday present from the estimable Joe X, Primate of Colorado of the Neo-American Church), and TBOT (Weiser, "This paperback edition 1974", bought brand spanking new, age 15; now, like myself, a bit used-looking) litter my study as we speak, as a result of recent points here.

This post has done the phantom "was visible in sidebar but now vanished from sidebar and forum views, yet subject to "duplicate post" error, after edits" thing. Perhaps this edit will appease the forum-gremlins, and now allow it to re-appear, or perhaps it will appear after my two earlier attempts to re-post as a new post (if so, see my point re epistemology and Hunting of the Snark after this happened to others).

It has now done it again after discovering and editing a new typo!!!!

Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!

Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!

Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!


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belmurru
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04/06/2019 9:14 pm  

In the category of "typos and other mistakes in Crowley that some people will insist are intentional and proceed to build an edifice of theory thereupon", note, in the Book of Thoth, on the Unicursal Hexagram page, page 11, the next figure over, the diagram of the heptagon-heptagram with the planets and days of the week. The captions says "Hexagon" and "Hexagram".

I had never noticed this until going back to the Unicursal Hexagram in that book.

Another mistake is the word "compromised" for "comprised" in the description of the Universe card, top of page 117 - "all reality is consequently compromised in the series", for which I was able to get a definitive answer -
https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/book-of-thoth-textual-question/#post-98491


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