Home Forums Thelema Thelema What does “BABALON” have to do with “Thelema”?

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  • #113501

    Tiger
    Participant

    And the word was no longer secret .

    #113502

    Tiger
    Participant
    #113503

    christibrany
    Participant

    I too have never heard of Nuit being unpopular, especially since I am praising her every time I do RESH along with the other buddies.
    I find that women and men are equal but different and so I don’t feel the need for feminism nor chauvinism.

    #113519

    dom
    Participant

    Apologies to Ignant I misread the cuckold point.

    @jamiebarter
    Babalon is part of Nuit? What is that a reference to?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  dom.
    #113521

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @dom :

    Babalon is part of Nuit? What is that a reference to?

    The reference was to Chris on page one, where he originally wrote:

    For what it’s worth, in my personal practice I ‘somehow’ came upon identifying Babalon with or as part of Nuit as well. … it ‘fit’ to view babalon as a facet of Nuit. If nuit is infinite space, and the ‘ultimate’ feminine in Thelema, then Babalon would be a part of her.

    I then responded

    Chris seems to recognize the correspondence between Nuit and Babalon as well, but given that (according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a ‘secret name’ of Nuit, would they not (even more so than Babalon being “a part” of her, i.e. Nuit) be actually undifferentiated & identical in that esoterical sense of sharing the same Name, i.e. identity?

    So the query (if that’s what it is) should perhaps have been addressed to @christibrany, not to me.

    @ignant666, could you explain why & in what way you think the image of Nuit seems to be less popular than that of Babalon in general?

    An avatar of Babalon appears to be that of a sexually active woman “up for it”, by no means chaste, therefore somewhere between the feminine archetypes of High Priestess and The Empress in terms of experience, and similar perhaps to the description in The Book of the Law of them as “magnificent beasts of women with large limbs, and fire and light in their eyes, and masses of flaming hair about them” (II:24)? Does anybody disagree or have any refinements they can add to this?

    Also, would anybody know the exact circumstances whereby Crowley came to know Babalon as the secret name of Nuit — It’s not mentioned in any of the usual sources (biographies)?

    @tiger :

    And the word was no longer secret.
    No, it was written & concealed — I mean, revealed.

    Z Joy

    #113523

    dom
    Participant

    @jamiebarter

    I meant this;

    (according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a ‘secret name’ of Nuit,

    Where does AC say that?

    #113524

    ignant666
    Participant

    I am clearly stating a subjective impression, and certainly can’t prove the Babalon is a figure of more interest to Thelemites than Nuit.

    That said:

    Not great evidence perhaps, but compare the Nuit and Babalon articles in Thelemapedia: 294 and 3024 words respectively.

    Or run the following pairs of terms through a search engine: “Nuit Thelema” and “Babalon Thelema”. Compare numbers of hits containing either “Nuit” or “Babalon” in the page title. There are books, conferences and articles galore for Babalon, and very few such things for Nuit.

    #113525

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @dom :

    I meant this;
    “(according to Crowley at least) Babalon is a ‘secret name’ of Nuit,”
    Where does AC say that?

    This, That, & their bruvver the Udder… Questions, questions, always questions!…?

    Which when asked, I always try to answer politely if I can. But really, dom/david/ whatever your name is, you really must pay closer attention and occasionally re-read things over carefully before exciting yourself with typing out the first thing you can think of in the way of unnecessary queries. To paraphrase the sensationally late Alex Harvey, whatever can be next?

    A little more than 24 hours ago, on the previous page (in post #113493) Mal perceptively indicated the answer to your question with his quote from The Bok of Lies Chapter 49, referring to the line “Seven letters hath Her holiest name; and it is BABALON” where Crowley gave the coment: “There is only one symbol, but this symbol has many names. Of those names BABALON is the holiest. It is the name referred to in Liber Legis I:22″.

    That should provide you with the answer to your query if you look therein closely enough. It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909).

    @ignant666 :

    That said:
    Yes, I see what you mean now. Rather damned curious, now you come to mention it! To use the jargon of ad-speak (as with competing washing powders) Babalon just must be somehow way more ‘sexy’ in the Thelemic marketplace than Nuit.

    N Joy

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Jamie J Barter. Reason: missing word. ignoring book comment
    #113527

    Tiger
    Participant

    Hoor Ma Get it on
    Priapus workin

    ————————
    Ar Ma Gedd on
    har məgiddô
    loom up; mount

    Patmos
    fertility garden
    notes
    from a pipe
    ———-

    oh
    and bring to the fore
    the terrible Mother whore
    that loved ya, spanked ya
    and spat you out
    in time

    but guard your mind
    lest you let something
    take a hold a it

    even for a split second

    #113529

    belmurru
    Participant

    Jamie –

    It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909).

    Crowley only spelled it as such from that Vision and the Voice experience, after the 12th Aethyr (so December 5-6, 1909). See my post back a little –

    What does “BABALON” have to do with “Thelema”?

    Looking at the facsimiles of the Equinox at Keep Silence
    https://keepsilence.org/the-equinox/
    I can’t see that A:.A:. sigil being used at all in the first series, even after March 1910.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  belmurru.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  belmurru.
    #113538

    belmurru
    Participant

    In response to Jamie et. al.

    It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909)

    In the Old Commentary (1909 to 1911, published in The Equinox I,7 (March, 1912), pp. 387-400a), commentary to verse I,22, he writes: “A promise – not yet fulfilled. [Since ((Sun) in (Sagittarius), An. V.) fulfilled.]” Sun in Sagittarius, An. V, = November-December 1909, referring to The Vision and the Voice.

    Eshelman corroborates this in The Mystical & Magical System of the A.:A.: (3rd edition, 2000), p. 24 (my emphasis):

    “On the front of this book is the Sigillum Sanctum Fraternitatis A.:A.: – the Holy Seal of the Fraternitatis A.:A.:. This Seal first appeared in Book IV, Part I (1911). It did not appear anywhere in the first volume (first ten numbers) of The Equinox.

    I still haven’t found an explicit “Babalon is the ‘secret name’ of Nuit” statement earlier than the commentary to the Book of Lies, in about 1920, although it is clear that this is what he means in the Old Commentary. But to a casual reader, who had never heard of Babalon in 1912, it would not have been apparent what that name was. Is the casual reader, who needs everything spelled out explicitly and unambiguously, our benchmark here?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  belmurru.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  belmurru.
    #113544

    Shiva
    Participant

    Bab

    Who?

    #113545

    belmurru
    Participant

    In response to Jamie et. al.

    It therefore places the upper limit on when he realised this to be as 1913. Was ‘BABALON’ in use around the seven-pointed star device of the A.’. A.’. when it was first formed back in 1907? That would precede it being even in The Vision and The Voice (1909)

    In the Old Commentary (1909 to 1911, published in The Equinox I,7 (March, 1912), pp. 387-400a), commentary to verse I,22, he writes: “A promise – not yet fulfilled. [Since ((Sun) in (Sagittarius), An. V.) fulfilled.]” Sun in Sagittarius, An. V, = November-December 1909, referring to The Vision and the Voice.

    Eshelman corroborates this in The Mystical & Magical System of the A.:A.: (3rd edition, 2000), p. 24 (my emphasis):

    “On the front of this book is the Sigillum Sanctum Fraternitatis A.:A.: – the Holy Seal of the Fraternitatis A.:A.:. This Seal first appeared in Book IV, Part I (1911). It did not appear anywhere in the first volume (first ten numbers) of The Equinox.

    I still haven’t found an explicit “Babalon is the ‘secret name’ of Nuit” statement earlier than the commentary to the Book of Lies, in about 1920, although it is clear that this is what he means in the Old Commentary. But to a casual reader, who had never heard of Babalon in 1912, it would not have been apparent what that name was. Is the casual reader, who needs everything spelled out explicitly and unambiguously, our benchmark here?

    #113546

    Tiger
    Participant

    “to a casual reader, who had never heard of Babalon in 1912, it would not have been apparent what that name was. Is the casual reader, who needs everything spelled out explicitly and unambiguously, our benchmark here?”

    Well i wonder
    Crowley must of had a target audience in mind; particularly Theosophists, Rosicrucians, Freemasons as well as People of the Book .

    Poetry and the Arts have a different means than spelling everything out explicitly and unambiguously;
    though such setups can be favorable or unfavorable for an Apokalypsis.

    #113548

    dom
    Participant

    Maybe Jack Parsons has something to do with the ‘elevation’ of Babalon over Nuit.

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