Home Forums Thelema Thelema What does “BABALON” have to do with “Thelema”?

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  • #113623

    belmurru
    Participant

    Ignant, I asked Jim Eshelman if he had any observations about the Unicursal Hexagram with a rose in the middle having become the de facto symbol of Thelema. I opined that it must have happened in the 70s or even 80s, with that extra card in the Thoth Tarot of the time. I didn’t see it as jewelry, in silver, until ’93 or ’94, in either Cambridge MA or Greenwich Village, NYC respectively (can’t remember which was first, I bought both of them, I would guess it was Cambridge).

    He responded that it was a good question, and he supposes that people saw it in either Book of Thoth or the Tarot, and it looked unique and cool and was associated exclusively with Crowley, so they adopted it and it became popular. This is “cultural ignorance”, because it actually predates Crowley and is where he got it, in a Golden Dawn 4=7 paper.

    I think that is consistent with my explanation, although I don’t know the 4=7 paper, and whether it has the rose there or not.

    The reason I asked Eshelman is because he was a disciple of Phyllis Seckler and has been around long enough to have seen these changes first hand.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  belmurru. Reason: typo
    #113625

    ignant666
    Participant

    Good golly Moses, thanks you, belmurru, for going above and beyond, and asking an actual genuine A.’. A.’. person with credentials that are un-Mottled, as it were.

    I think it was even later than you suggest it might have been, and about when you say you first spotted it in the wild, which coincides with my memories. I don’t ever recall seeing jewelry or anything else with unicursal hexagrams until the ’90s. Magickal Childe and its successors always had a couple Thelemic bits in the ’70s-’80s, but they were usually seven-pointed stars, of both the “fat” (A.’. A.’. sigil/Dee), and “skinny” (“Mark Of The Beast”), styles, or else “eye of Horus” designs.

    I put the rising popularity of the unicursal hexagram down to use of it as a “secondary sign” by the (c)OTO (along with the lamen they bought from the UK bankruptcy folks), and also down to philo-Judaism among Thelemites, what with all the Hebrew letters, and Zohars and what-not. I always aspired to be Jewish as a child- they got more holidays, and learned the Hebrew alphabet instead of hearing terrifying stories on weekends while the grown-ups did that creepy stuff before the cocktail party at the priest/rabbi’s house.

    Your mention of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot “of the time” causes me to feel old (which i am). The (c) ’86 Swiss deck, featuring this card, and a very nicely colored “Smith-Waite Centennial Edition” deck (c)2015 (a birthday present from the estimable JOe X, Primate of Colorado of the Neo-American Church), and TBOT (Weiser, “This paperback edition 1974”, bought brand spanking new, age 15; now, like myself, a bit used-looking) litter my study as we speak, as a result of recent points here.

    #113626

    ignant666
    Participant

    Good golly Moses, thanks you, belmurru, for going above and beyond, and asking an actual genuine A.’. A.’. person with credentials that are un-Mottled, as it were.

    I think it was even later than you suggest it might have been, and about when you say you first spotted it in the wild, which coincides with my memories. I don’t ever recall seeing jewelry or anything else with unicursal hexagrams until the ’90s. Magickal Childe and its successors always had a couple Thelemic bits in the ’70s-’80s, but they were usually seven-pointed stars, of both the “fat” (A.’. A.’. sigil/Dee), and “skinny” (“Mark Of The Beast”), styles, or else “eye of Horus” designs.

    I put the rising popularity of the unicursal hexagram down to use of it as a “secondary sign” by the (c)OTO (along with the lamen they bought from the UK bankruptcy folks), and also down to philo-Judaism among Thelemites, what with all the Hebrew letters, and Zohars and what-not. I always aspired to be Jewish as a child- they got more holidays, and learned the Hebrew alphabet instead of hearing terrifying stories on weekends while the grown-ups did that creepy stuff before the cocktail party at the priest/rabbi’s house.

    Your mention of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot “of the time” causes me to feel old (which i am). The (c) ’86 Swiss deck, featuring this card, and a very nicely colored “Smith-Waite Centennial Edition” deck (c)2015 (a birthday present from the estimable Joe X, Primate of Colorado of the Neo-American Church), and TBOT (Weiser, “This paperback edition 1974”, bought brand spanking new, age 15; now, like myself, a bit used-looking) litter my study as we speak, as a result of recent points here.

    This post has done the phantom “was visible in sidebar but now vanished from sidebar and forum views, yet subject to “duplicate post” error, after edits” thing. Perhaps this edit will appease the forum-gremlins, and now allow it to re-appear, or perhaps it will appear after my two earlier attempts to re-post as a new post (if so, see my point re epistemology and Hunting of the Snark after this happened to others).

    It has now done it again after discovering and editing a new typo!!!!

    Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  ignant666.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  ignant666.
    #113629

    ignant666
    Participant

    Good golly Moses, thanks you, belmurru, for going above and beyond, and asking an actual genuine A.’. A.’. person with credentials that are un-Mottled, as it were.

    I think it was even later than you suggest it might have been, and about when you say you first spotted it in the wild, which coincides with my memories. I don’t ever recall seeing jewelry or anything else with unicursal hexagrams until the ’90s. Magickal Childe and its successors always had a couple Thelemic bits in the ’70s-’80s, but they were usually seven-pointed stars, of both the “fat” (A.’. A.’. sigil/Dee), and “skinny” (“Mark Of The Beast”), styles, or else “eye of Horus” designs.

    I put the rising popularity of the unicursal hexagram down to use of it as a “secondary sign” by the (c)OTO (along with the lamen they bought from the UK bankruptcy folks), and also down to philo-Judaism among Thelemites, what with all the Hebrew letters, and Zohars and what-not. I always aspired to be Jewish as a child- they got more holidays, and learned the Hebrew alphabet instead of hearing terrifying stories on weekends while the grown-ups did that creepy stuff before the cocktail party at the priest/rabbi’s house.

    Your mention of the unicursal hexagram card in the Thoth tarot “of the time” causes me to feel old (which i am). The (c) ’86 Swiss deck, featuring this card, and a very nicely colored “Smith-Waite Centennial Edition” deck (c)2015 (a birthday present from the estimable Joe X, Primate of Colorado of the Neo-American Church), and TBOT (Weiser, “This paperback edition 1974”, bought brand spanking new, age 15; now, like myself, a bit used-looking) litter my study as we speak, as a result of recent points here.

    This post has done the phantom “was visible in sidebar but now vanished from sidebar and forum views, yet subject to “duplicate post” error, after edits” thing. Perhaps this edit will appease the forum-gremlins, and now allow it to re-appear, or perhaps it will appear after my two earlier attempts to re-post as a new post (if so, see my point re epistemology and Hunting of the Snark after this happened to others).

    It has now done it again after discovering and editing a new typo!!!!

    Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!

    Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!

    Bahlasti! Ompehda! APO PANTOS KAKODAIMONOS!!!

    #113630

    belmurru
    Participant

    In the category of “typos and other mistakes in Crowley that some people will insist are intentional and proceed to build an edifice of theory thereupon”, note, in the Book of Thoth, on the Unicursal Hexagram page, page 11, the next figure over, the diagram of the heptagon-heptagram with the planets and days of the week. The captions says “Hexagon” and “Hexagram”.

    I had never noticed this until going back to the Unicursal Hexagram in that book.

    Another mistake is the word “compromised” for “comprised” in the description of the Universe card, top of page 117 – “all reality is consequently compromised in the series”, for which I was able to get a definitive answer –

    Book of Thoth textual question

    #113741

    belmurru
    Participant

    Has your question “What does Babalon have to do with Thelema?” been answered, Ignant?

    I find this subject interesting, worthy of more discussion.

    #113742

    ignant666
    Participant

    Certainly, i think there is more there than has been discussed, and many points above unanswered.

    My position is, i think, clear: Babalon is one of the many emanations of The Demon Crowley’s emotional/psychological issues around Christianity (in one of its most extreme manifestations, the Plymouth Brethren), sexuality, and a sort of blasphemic-erotic complex (a la Bataille), and is not an essential part of Thelema.

    Babalon overlaps with the Scarlet Woman mentioned in AL, and, it is said, with Nuit. But isn’t it correct that the Beast and Scarlet Woman mentioned in AL are defunct titles that refer to long-dead people? Or are some seeking to model their Paths on the advice offered to these aeonic officers?

    #113748

    christibrany
    Participant

    I think the Beast and Babalon are ‘offices’ ie titles that anyone can hold if they are ‘performing’ 😉 appropriately.

    #113749

    ignant666
    Participant

    Fair enough, but why would anyone want to do this?

    I’ve been with “Scarlet Women”, and while often good fun in the short term, they leave a lot to be desired in even the medium term.

    And i can’t imagine why anyone would aspire to be “The Beast 666”- just because an unusually neurotic early 20th century author and mountain-climber found this to be his Will can’t imply that it’s anyone else’s Will, can it?

    Or if if someone would argue this being “The Beast 666” is some sort of “Universal Will” of the New Aeon, or “UW” of males, or of male initiates, or something, i would dearly like to hear why.

    #113751

    christibrany
    Participant

    I have never wanted to ‘assume’ said ‘office’ so I couldn’t answer. I think when I have heard people talking about it it seemed like juvenile posturing more than anything. Sort of like that reddit(?) thing posted earlier.

    #113759

    Tiger
    Participant

    and Salome, Delilah and Jezebel ?

    #113768

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @christibrany :

    I think the Beast and Babalon are ‘offices’ ie titles that anyone can hold if they are ‘performing’ appropriately.
    Babalon is not an office, though (with or without any involvement from Ricky Gervais). You presumably mean Scarlet Woman? Motta was quite keen on this idea that these were titles as well, in fact didn’t he describe himself as “The Beast 666” succeeding in this context, somewhere (perhaps in a letter to Germer or some proclamation in one of his organs)?

    @ignant666 :
    I agree… You are making some very good points, mon brave! More lead to your pencil! (As it were)

    @tiger :

    and Salome, Delilah and Jezebel?
    These were more femmes fatales weren’t they? Though there is a Venn diagram that could be drawn where the circles of ‘Scarlet Women’ and ‘femmes fatales’ intersect with one another. Give it a try!

    Z Jyo

    #113771

    ignant666
    Participant

    All i can say is, you can have your Scarlet Women, Babalons, Salomes, Delilahs, and Jezebels.

    Good fun on Friday and Saturday nights, fine, but what about Monday through Thursday?

    I used to be a big fan of the philosophy of “Live each moment as if it were your last- what if you get run over by a bus in the morning?”, until i noticed i kept not getting run over by a bus, often for years at a time.

    #113774

    Tiger
    Participant

    Venn diagram ?
    maybe the logicians and figureaticians can help

    a
    Veve is incarnating
    being
    fleshed out
    perceived
    real
    ized
    germination
    in the noosphere
    https://images.app.goo.gl/wB2Ebf87JA9UJcjD6

    or
    a graphic novel
    for christian children
    on a new interpretation

    with a shout out
    to
    Jacques de Molay

    is in the works

    oh and possibly ego of man destroyed as the scarlet woman and lucky 666 shine
    https://images.app.goo.gl/HnqZJvUgxCXTWbV88

    #113776

    Shiva
    Participant

    Ig: I’ve been with “Scarlet Women”, and while often good fun in the short term, they leave a lot to be desired in even the medium term.

    AC said there were three types of women (Isis, Osiris, Horus)(MWTears). I believe you are describing the Horus type. Horus, Hoorus, Whorus. These ladies, he said, are interested only in themselves. Only the Osiris type is good for the long haul.

    These Horus women are sparkling, amazing, usually beautiful, and they have some cosmic internet connection with ecstasy (the state, not the medicine). The trouble is, they’re unstable and unreliable. Every one of them that I have known (intimately or platonickly – doesn’t matter which) passed on away from their superficial interest in The Path, and there was always what we might call a “vampire” involved in their passing.

    They passed on to a new situation, which (from my point of view, and ultimately theirs as well) was absolutely dreadful. I would list a few, with details of “dreadful” situations, but I don’t want to scare the kids or frighten the ladies.

    jb: Motta was quite keen on this idea that these were titles as well …

    Motta, who? Oh, him. I don’t accept his claims or his concepts. It’s not that he’s wrong, just that there’s no respect involved.

    Ig: All i can say is, you can have your Scarlet Women, Babalons, Salomes, Delilahs, and Jezebels.

    I don’t care if it gets real hairy,
    ‘long as I got my virgin Mary
    glued to the dashboard of my car …

    According to AC, only the Osiris type is suitable for a long-term lease.

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