Home Forums Thelema Thelema What of the children of Thelemites?

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  • #113991

    dom
    Participant

    I feel that this thread was cut short by ….well….by someone ruining it before it was locked. Here it is again;

    https://www.lashtal.com/forums/topic/what-of-the-children-of-thelemites/

    Ignant said;

    Many of us here have kids, and i am curious what folks may, or may not, have done as far as their children’s education.
    AC makes many recommendations, most crazy (children should witness their parents, and if possible others, having sex throughout childhood), to various pseudo-Christian practices (saying “Will” before meals – has anyone actually done this for more than say a week? Why?), etc.
    With my son, the only religious training he got was the D’Aulaire Greek, Roman, and Norse myth books.
    When my father died when he was 8, he said “Now grandpa has gone to Valhalla, or perhaps to Hades’ realm”.
    Another good story: when he was five and acting up during some tourism, my mother said “Hush, this is a church!” He replied, making daddy very proud ,”What’s a church, grandma?”. The story about him seeing a crucifix and yelling about “that man Fucking” (“his name’s Jesus, not Fucking” “i knew his name was a bad word”) is too long to tell.
    How have you talked to your kids about “god”/”gods”, religion, spirituality, Thelema, or other topics, or have you avoided saying anything at all about these things as i have?
    ______________________
    I have urged him to read the bible now that he is a teenager, just as i have urged him to listen to various music, or watch films or look at some type of art.
    He is much more interested in what we call “the Satan worship” (Dungeons & Dragons; he plays with home-schooled Xian kids whose parents worry they will go to Hell bc of my son’s dungeon-mastering- “Call or text us if the Satan worship is running past 11!”) and trying to play guitar like Jimmy Page and Robert Fripp.
    And in case you think these latter are my forming him: i think it is commendable that a 16-year-old can play the solos from “Stairway to Heaven” or “21st Century Schizoid Man” but i don’t think he or she should do it in public, any more than they should masturbate in front of folks. In any case i would prefer some Lou, Johnny Thunders, or Wayne Kramer solos (which he can also do but he digs the prog).

    #114006

    ignant666
    Participant

    Well, i said my bit, as quoted above.

    Update- i interrupted my 16 year old son studying for his year-end exams and asked him the following:

    1) Q: What are your thoughts on god, and religion and so on? A: I just don’t care, it doesn’t matter. [Is god real?] I just don’t care either way.

    2) Q: What do you think of your religious education? A: Poor. You mean like Norse and Greek myths and stuff? [Yes] It’s just useless, no one’s going to point a gun at you and ask ‘Who was Persephone?’

    I feel we did a good job. His mother is not a Thelemite. She was raised as a Kardecian Spiritualist, with considerable overlays of macumba and other Brazilian low/medium magick.

    #114017

    Tiger
    Participant

    capoeira Futhark and the living atu

    before learning
    what the law
    says
    regardless
    of understanding

    you will be taxed
    and rendered
    unto Ceaser

    in reference
    to post number #6#6#6
    lion serpent sun

    spilled
    from another thread
    per Hapi per haps

    #114041

    dom
    Participant

    Crowley’s son, I wonder how his lungs turned out.

    #114059

    dom
    Participant

    I feel we did a good job. His mother is not a Thelemite

    What are you basing the “good job” on?

    A parent can only lead by example I feel.

    I understand that AC’s approach to child-rearing was to let him put his hand in the fire so he may learn that one gets burned by putting one’s hand in the fire. Darwinian liberalism I guess you could call it.

    I used to watch the TV show Supernanny where a nanny goes into a household to try and help parents to sort out unruly difficult children. I wonder what AC would’ve made of that.

    Is a parent supposed to turn out a model citizen and what is that anyway? I have my own answers but maybe some children are just destined to grow up into , um, non model citizens. It’s a question of nature or nurture.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  dom.
    #114069

    Shiva
    Participant

    Crowley’s son, the publickly recognized one is now dead. Aleister Ataturk McSomething. Don’t you have any respect for the dead?

    Aleister, Jr. was looked after, for a while by the member of Agape Lodge. He moved around a lot amongst them. He was desribed as being “the most morose and the darkest person we had ever met.” Apparently, he radiated despair and tribulation. That’s why he got to live with so many people. Everyone wanted to move him along to the next wardens as soon as possible.

    Of course, he was not raised by his father.

    #114075

    dom
    Participant

    He was desribed as being “the most morose and the darkest person we had ever met.”

    Aha!! How gothic is that? Ha! Lurch from the Adams Family.

    #114083

    ignant666
    Participant

    While Crowley was a pretty terrible father, at least one of his step-children (who loathed AC) turned out OK:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Sturges

    There were a number of women involved in Agape Lodge in California. Jane Wolfe seems to have had no children. Phyllis Seckler had at least one child. What happened to her/them?

    For a philosophy/religion/practice that is more then a century old, there must be many who grew up with Thelemite parents, and grandparents, by now.

    Many in the (c)OTO leadership seem to be childless, perhaps due to their, um, practices.

    #114085

    dom
    Participant

    Jaz Coleman’s daughters are apparently hip hop fans.

    Oh shit. That’s not a good sign.

    So were you a liberal parent ignant?

    Some of my friends call their parents by their first names. Haha.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  dom.
    #114090

    Shiva
    Participant

    One member of Solar Lodge had a kid. Rhe member split from Solar and the kid grew up. He joined the (c)OTO. Not much further on that. But in his private life, he and his dirlfriend/wife (status unknown) decided to take up the heroin habit. They repeatedly went to daddy (the ex-member) for money. Heroin costs a lot if one uses it a lot and builds up a tolerance (also known as addiction). Around 2009-10, said ex-member (who was an attorney involved in real estate deals) saw a massive drop in income, due to the real estate financial meltdown, and he had to inform the next generation that there was no money available for heroin donations.

    The next generation expressed great disappointment and became very angry.

    Frater Aquarius and Soror Venus (this is merely a codename for her in Inside Solar Lodge), got together to perform some IX* work. If performed correctly, there’s not supposed to be an offspring (but that’s only a rumor, and I don’t believe it). In this case, a female offspring was generated, so the parents got married.

    I met her three times. She was in her late 20s or early 30s at that time. She presented with a “normal” demeanor. Many years later, Martin Starr met her in the process of buying the deceased Aquarius’ library from her. She was described as being in the real estate business, and was very nice.

    —————

    One thing we don’t see in all these flashback reminiscences of Thelemic offspring is the part where the son or daughter takes up the burden of the Path. I don’t think we can consider short-term membership in (c)OTO as being more than a quick in-and-0ut of the Tong.

    #114091

    ignant666
    Participant

    “Liberal” parent? Well, i am a commie (anarchist/communist to be specific), but not so “liberal” perhaps in childrearing.

    He calls us “pai” and “mai” (“dad” and “mom” in Portuguese). There was a brief period when he was a small child where he called me by my first name; this was his own initiative and brief.

    We always encouraged our son to think for himself, to be quick to question authority, to defend himself physically. On the other hand, he knows we expect him to get very good grades (he does; high honor roll every marking period). He is 16; i cannot recall ever having to get him up for school since he was 11 or so. We have never had any sort of serious argument with him.

    He is very responsible, popular with his peers and teachers, and his boss at his job loves him. He has informed us that he intends to have girlfriends, to smoke weed, and to do acid once he is in college, but thinks doing those things in high school is stupid.

    He does not like the hip-hop; as i mentioned, he is into classic and prog rock mostly, and a very serious guitar player. He has a Beatle haircut, and says he has the longest hair of any boy in his school.

    #114092

    christibrany
    Participant

    Happy Solstice LAShTALians and a 93

    Apologies for not answering questions (Jamie) but I tend to avoid computers in my free time due to being on them every work day.

    Me and the missus don’t want kids, but if we did I would probably raise them like my dad raised me, not very liberal and not very conservative. Just a good mix of discipline, manners, respect, with just enough loosening of the leash to allow for injury, and learning and self and world exploration alone and with friends…
    My mom was very sad when she learnt we don’t want to give her grandkids, as my sister was unable to bear a kid somehow. But the Good News is that my sister’s pregnant for real so congrats to her 😀

    @Jamie I think we had an AC black brother type thread I should continue my LHP RHP ramblings there if I can find it.

    @shiva happy almost 80th Lesser Feast ! My dad didn’t even get to make it to 65 sadly..I wonder what will happen to moi.

    Chris

    93s

    #114093

    christibrany
    Participant

    and a PS
    @shiva . Parents buying their children heroin is pretty effed up….to put it lightly.

    @Ignant I think I told you but my wife is Portuguese. I am presuming your wife is Brazilian? If I recall correctly Mai is more Brazilian but I may be wrong. Wife is mad I haven’t learnt Portuguese. But I am pretty full already with Korean, German, and French.

    #114095

    ignant666
    Participant

    “Mai” is short for “mamai”, which is more or less “mom”, at least in Brazil, where the wife is indeed from.

    Evidently your wife is a quieter woman than mine. I did not learn Portuguese on purpose, but she shouts on the phone (Brazil is long distance, after all), so i had no choice. It chased out most of the Spanish, and some of the French, as i evidently have limited mental capacity in this area.

    We will visit Portugal this summer, heading to Porto to visit some Brazilian friends who have retired there. My first time there, wife has been before.

    #114098

    dom
    Participant

    @ignant

    “Liberal” parent? Well, i am a commie (anarchist/communist to be specific), but not so “liberal” perhaps in childrearing.

    You’re a commie? I take it you’re not a fan of the communist socialist experiments that we’ve had so far? North Korea, East Germany, U.S.S.R, Cuba?

    We always encouraged our son to think for himself, to be quick to question authority,

    Like s young Al Capone? He was suspended from school for punching a nun if not mistaken. Seriously, the point is, authority is good in a lot of situatiuons e.g. traffic cops. I have myriad other examples.

    On the other hand, he knows we expect him to get very good grades (he does; high honor roll every marking period).

    So he’s on his way to be managerial level or an academic? Unless he wants to rebel against that. This is what I was talking about with elitemachinery the boy chess champion who went on to truck driving and then adult movie acting. Grades? Schmades.

    We have never had any sort of serious argument with him

    That’s good. My uncle told his sons to do what the fuck they want. One of them volunteers to help disabled people. I guess that’s Thelemic nobility in action right there; the risk and gamble.

    He is very responsible, popular with his peers and teachers, and his boss at his job loves him. He has informed us that he intends to have girlfriends, to smoke weed, and to do acid once he is in college, but thinks doing those things in high school is stupid.

    I agree, there’s something creepy about teens doing weed and acid.

    @christibrany

    like my dad raised me, not very liberal and not very conservative. Just a good mix of discipline, manners, respect, with just enough loosening of the leash to allow for injury, and learning and self and world exploration alone and with friends…

    That’s all a bit Tree of Life also. A pillar on either side.

    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 4 months ago by  dom.
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