Home Forums Thelema Thelema What of the children of Thelemites?

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  • #114103

    ignant666
    Participant

    1) Yes, i am a communist, with a little “c”, because i think capitalism grinds down the many for the benefit of a very few, and can be replaced with a more humane system. But i am also (being a Thelemite) an anarchist- an anti-authoritarian who sees liberty for all as the highest ideal. As such, i heartily despise the totalitarian state-capitalist regimes that have falsely claimed to be “socialist”. In practical politics, i am a far-left Democrat.

    2) As to encouraging the young to question authority: young people have plenty of authority and discipline crammed down their gullets in school. Not all of it is rational/legitimate. Kids need to know their parents will support them when they are right in refusing.

    As far as i know, my son has never even been in the same room with a nun, let alone punched one. He has been in fewer fights in his life than i was usually in by lunch-time at his age, but that is a generational thing i think. Kids these days are much less violent than we were in the ’70s.

    3) Kids doing what the fuck they want: Yes, within limits. He was the only kid in 6th grade with a BB gun, and the envy of his peers. We have never limited, censored, or inquired into the boy’s reading or internet use. He was familiar with 4Chan by age 9 or so. He was not allowed to swear until he was 12 (that seemed a long time in the future when this rule was made age 6 or so). We used to tell him that if he got bad grades, we would make him live in the yard until he was 16, but now he is almost 17.

    3) “Grades? Schmades.”: We have no money to pay for the boy to go to college (university). Thus, it is on him to get grades that will get him into an elite university that will fully fund his education. He is doing that. Not because of a desire (from us or him) that he should be “managerial level or an academic”, but because being educated is a good thing in and of itself.

    I certainly hope he has sense enough not to become an academic, or, gods forbid, a research scientist like dear old dad. I used to tell the grants staff at the university where i worked that they should have a big office poster that said “Mamas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Live On Soft Money” (a reference to a country song that made the same plea re growing up to be cowboys; “soft money” means “having to go out and get grant money if you want a salary to go with that title and office”).

    4) “[A] good mix of discipline, manners, respect, with just enough loosening of the leash to allow for injury, and learning and self and world exploration alone and with friends…”: Says what i have been trying to say about how we tried to raise our son better than i have.

    #114105

    Tiger
    Participant

    Communal Anarchy for everybody !
    Sweet. Everyone included !

    #114109

    dom
    Participant

    @ignant

    1) Yes, i am a communist, with a little “c”,

    ………

    This seems um, fantastical i.e. not much to do with reality……………

    In practical politics, i am a far-left Democrat.

    Yep, now you’re making more sense.

    By the way you know that capitalism tends to allow people to get what they want easily and efficiently moreso like say a Stooges album, baseball bats, cough mixture or a good variety of wine whereas socialist economies tend to go to shit where things like queuing for bread or a pair of jeans are common?

    2) As to encouraging the young to question authority: young people have plenty of authority and discipline crammed down their gullets in school. Not all of it is rational/legitimate. Kids need to know their parents will support them when they are right in refusing.

    Yeah sure, no one wants a Stepford Wife idiot or a Sarah Palin creationist idiot for a mother.

    As far as i know, my son has never even been in the same room with a nun, let alone punched one. He has been in fewer fights in his life than i was usually in by lunch-time at his age, but that is a generational thing i think. Kids these days are much less violent than we were in the ’70s

    I’ve heard it said that the 70s were more violent both in the UK and the USA. Why do you think that is/was?

    3) “Grades? Schmades.”: We have no money to pay for the boy to go to college (university). Thus, it is on him to get grades that will get him into an elite university that will fully fund his education. He is doing that. Not because of a desire (from us or him) that he should be “managerial level or an academic”, but because being educated is a good thing in and of itself.

    Are you sure you want him to get good grades because you don’t want him to work in McDonalds as an adult? Are you sure you’re an anarchist? That seems to be a typical middle-class aspirational attitude that you have. Think of e.g. Colin Wilson, he never went to a university and he picked up/consumed all of the knowledge he needed. Good for him he made a career out of it.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #114128

    ignant666
    Participant

    Are you sure you want him to get good grades because you don’t want him to work in McDonalds as an adult? Are you sure you’re an anarchist? That seems to be a typical middle-class aspirational attitude that you have.

    Another thing capitalism provides, besides Stooges records, baseball bats, cough medicine, and wine, is lots of shitty jobs that pay next to nothing, have irregular and constantly changing hours, and suck every minute that you are at work. Jobs like working at McDonalds.

    Being critical of power, hierarchy, and authority (ie an “anarchist”) does not imply a desire to be bored, shit upon, and/or exploited during one’s work life- in fact rather the opposite. Lots of good jobs don’t depend on post secondary education (such as being a plumber or electrician), but the kinds of good jobs available to the artsy-fartsy sort of person my son is tend to require a degree.

    Being an anarchist is also not incompatible with being a snob. I did my undergraduate work at one of the best universities in the US; i learned a great deal. I want the same quality of education for my son.

    #114129

    Tiger
    Participant

    The legislator that spends $30 on breakfast $50 for lunch and $200 for dinner not to mention the phone bill has legislated that a living wage is relative .

    you get the same math in a local university as you do in the ivy league
    what the ivy league provides is a network
    (to make it worth the money)

    like the kid in an educated neighbor hood
    who can afford to intern at the court, hospital, investment corporation, engineering department etc

    as over seen by the democratic
    and republican legislators

    you get paid holidays in academics and get to sit around more
    with blue collar work you don’t have to pay to exercise

    #114130

    dom
    Participant

    Another thing capitalism provides, besides Stooges records, baseball bats, cough medicine, and wine, is lots of shitty jobs that pay next to nothing, have irregular and constantly changing hours, and suck every minute that you are at work. Jobs like working at McDonalds.

    See Gurdjieff.

    Being an anarchist is also not incompatible with being a snob. I did my undergraduate work at one of the best universities in the US; i learned a great deal. I want the same quality of education for my son

    Like I said earlier education comes from a book (not a building). Fair enough aa I guess Bakunin and pals may’ve attended the best universities in Tsarist Russia… where they probably met like-minded friends.

    #114131

    Shiva
    Participant

    d: By the way you know that capitalism tends to allow people to get what they want easily and efficiently … whereas socialist economies tend to go to shit where things like queuing for bread or a pair of jeans are common?

    This is true. But I don’t think Ignant’s ideal commune is like contemporary, socialist countries. Let’s examine the difference:

    1. Today, such places are merely called “Communist” and are “for the people.” These places are run by capitalist thugs, who merely run the country for efficiency in supporting an “upper class” of rich folks. Said “class” being determined by how much you support the ideas of the leader. The lower classes are considered as dumb animals who must be looked after … but never allowed to run free. These places usually have a strong police & military, and if someone (like dom, or Ig, or Jamie*) causes a disturbance, the “State” comes down brutally upon them.

    * or Me,

    2. Ideal communism would revolve around an industry and an ecomony that is administered for the people. It is administered by a benevolent State, and the profits do not rise up to the top, but are either put back into better or more production, or are fed back into community services. Efficient production would lead to reduces prices. The fly in this ointment is that very few human beings can assume a position of control (over anything) and not look for ways (any ways) to benefit him/herself at the loss of efficiency in the system. This characteristic is called greed or selfishness.

    Greed is the Word of the Kali Yuga.

    Our capitalistic, so-called “western” culture is capitalistic. Capital = cash. Money talks. So we find a so-called democracy is actually a “representative democracy” where people vote to elect somebody to do the administrative work … who are immediately swept away into taking bribes to vote a certain way by capital interests (covered up “contributions to a PAC).

    So democracy, everywhere, is controlled by those with capital. The usual ratio indicates that the upper 10% consume more than the lower 90%, with only 1% being in the ultimate driver’s seat. These folks are known as the “deep state,” and we rarely see them in the halls of government.

    All those socialist countries are doing their best to turn “Communism” into Capitalism, with the current leader and his crew (it’s always a him, isn’t it?) as the upper 1%.

    It’s all a question of whose gang is tougher. Why is it that certain countries forged ahead into a new age of economics (like UK, USA, and associates), while other countries stayed behind (like Borneo, Sudan, and their like)? We have discussed the concept/fact that different cultures go through their yugas at different rates and at different times.

    So I believe that I agree with Ignant in that any system should allow support and freedom to the individual (the antichrist, oh no strike that, anarchist). But sorry, there’s got to be a system in place to feed the anarchists and keep the crazy anarchists in line. A truly so-called communistic approach would work if only the administratore could be kept from megalomania, greed, and persecution of that other guy’s religious belief. Aleister hoped the OTO would fill that position.

    Say, iv’e just finished putting all this down on video. The first ray, specializing in destruction, war, politics, and bureaus has been completed (1 hr, 08 min) and is already posted to the web, but not at that creepy youTube site. I’m now checking for availability and continuity at the new full-length Megatron site. So that’s my excuse for bowing out now: I just erected all this in audio-visual format, and will be delivering the link to y’all soon. But let me give you one clue, one key statement that will integrate all this capital/commune stuff …

    Ashram 1,4, The Crown (the ruler) can only be occupied by a Master of the Temple. Says so in the Video!

    Yeah, that’s ideal. How long do you think it’ll take to get an 8=3 on the throne … who is first ray and can handle the job?

    #114132

    Jamie J Barter
    Participant

    @dom :

    I agree, there’s something creepy about teens doing weed and acid.
    Do they suddenly undergo an abrupt transformation and immediately become less creepy on the day that they pass their 20th birthday? I am probably setting myself up for some sort of snarky would-be humorous comeback but I am living proof that, in my early to mid-teens at least, it never did me any harm (and I would venture to suggest even a modicum of good too as a learning experience). I have no regrets for a minute, but it all depends on set and setting as someone you once praised said, of course…

    I’ve heard it said that the 70s were more violent both in the UK and the USA. Why do you think that is/was?
    I’m not sure I can agree with this: I can’t speak for the USA (where the public can bear ARMS according to their main constitutional decree! And where some elements of it [e.g. disaffected kids in schools] seem to like going out on the occasional shooting spree/massacre with them) but on the streets of London there is apparently an unprecedented epidemic of knife-crime today, as was lampooned by that sociological expert President Trump on his recent state visit over here.

    Commies, schmommies… Who was it who queried whether the discussion of politics has any place on Lashtal but thought Not? (Oh that’s right, it was Shiva!)

    NJoy

    #114133

    mal
    Participant

    Ashram 1,4, The Crown (the ruler) can only be occupied by a Master of the Temple. Says so in the Video!

    Yeah, that’s ideal. How long do you think it’ll take to get an 8=3 on the throne … who is first ray and can handle the job?

    Ashram 1,4, is similar in outlook to the Book of Codes Chapter II ver. 10.
    Liber 718 Ch2 ver10 Masters of the Temple shall oversee the government of provinces; they shall be given their own collection of states to rule. Let all the Adepts heed the word of their Master, and let the Masters heed the word of the Magi, one of whom shall be King. Now let it be understood: the Kingdom shall be governed by the King alone. The governors and magistrates are the instruments of his Will. And, therefore, the Supreme and Heavenly Ruler must be initiated in the most complete sense of the Word. He must be Master of Samadhi, Adept in all branches of Magick and her twin sister Yoga. His position calls for intense wisdom. He must be very God of very God; in no wise let a dog take the throne.

    As for an 8=3 ruler maybe it won’t be that long of a wait and will be the next US election with Marianne Williamson.

    Commies, schmommies… Who was it who queried whether the discussion of politics has any place on Lashtal but thought Not? (Oh that’s right, it was Shiva!)

    I’ve been wondering if it would be alright to post a thread about spirituality, politics, and thelema. The advent of Marianne Williamson in the Democratic Primary brought the subject to discussion on other sites and in private conversation and it’s made me curious what Thelemites and Lashtalians in particular might think of the implications of an accomplished spiritual leader taking over the Presidency. Maybe I’ll put an OP together and weight whether to post it in Stuff.

    #114134

    mal
    Participant

    Ashram 1,4, The Crown (the ruler) can only be occupied by a Master of the Temple. Says so in the Video!

    Yeah, that’s ideal. How long do you think it’ll take to get an 8=3 on the throne … who is first ray and can handle the job?

    Ashram 1,4, is similar in outlook to the Book of Codes Chapter II ver. 10.
    Liber 718 Ch2 ver10 Masters of the Temple shall oversee the government of provinces; they shall be given their own collection of states to rule. Let all the Adepts heed the word of their Master, and let the Masters heed the word of the Magi, one of whom shall be King. Now let it be understood: the Kingdom shall be governed by the King alone. The governors and magistrates are the instruments of his Will. And, therefore, the Supreme and Heavenly Ruler must be initiated in the most complete sense of the Word. He must be Master of Samadhi, Adept in all branches of Magick and her twin sister Yoga. His position calls for intense wisdom. He must be very God of very God; in no wise let a dog take the throne.

    As for an 8=3 ruler maybe it won’t be that long of a wait. What with the next US election in a little over a year and Marianne Williamson.

    Commies, schmommies… Who was it who queried whether the discussion of politics has any place on Lashtal but thought Not? (Oh that’s right, it was Shiva!)

    I’ve been wondering if it would be alright to post a thread about spirituality, politics, and thelema. The advent of Marianne Williamson in the Democratic Primary brought the subject to discussion on other sites and in private conversation and it’s made me curious what other Thelemites and Lashtalians in particular might think of the implications of an accomplished spiritual leader taking over the Presidency. Maybe I’ll put an OP together and weigh whether to post it in Stuff.

    #114135

    Shiva
    Participant

    j: Who was it who queried whether the discussion of politics has any place on Lashtal but thought Not? (Oh that’s right, it was Shiva!)

    I went out of my way to put my previous post in an arena of economics and administration. There may have been some disclosure of how present government works in all systems, but I purposely avoided politics as I knew perfectly well what I said to a person who was taking sides, thus encouraging useless dissent.

    I take no side(s). I merely suggest than nothing is going to work out well ’til the ruler of a gang, cult, corporation, city, state, nation, or planet until or unless there’s an 8=3 on the hot seat. All Thelemites want their little John or Jane to grow up to be a Magister Templi, don’t they?

    #114140

    dom
    Participant

    @jbarter

    Do they suddenly undergo an abrupt transformation and immediately become less creepy on the day that they pass their 20th birthday?

    Well yeah because they are …drum roll……a little bit more responsible because they are …second drum roll…older.


    I’ve heard it said that the 70s were more violent both in the UK and the USA. Why do you think that is/was?

    I’m not sure I can agree with this: I can’t speak for the USA (where the public can bear ARMS according to their main constitutional decree! And where some elements of it [e.g. disaffected kids in schools] seem to like going out on the occasional shooting spree/massacre with them) but on the streets of London there is apparently an unprecedented epidemic of knife-crime today, as was lampooned by that sociological expert President Trump on his recent state visit over here.

    Oh yeah I’ll rephrase it, let’s leave London out of the equation. That’s a special case of recent (last couple of decades recent) silly restrictions on police powers and overall local bad management. I don’t think it was the stab-capital of the world in Maggie’s day…just since. No, initially in asking Ignant’s opinion, I meant the UK in general.

    Also you talking about sporadic nut-job teenagers gunning down their bullying classmates is not the sort of violence I’m talking about. See New York pre Giuliani.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #114143

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    Well yeah because they are …drum roll……a little bit more responsible because they are …second drum roll…older.

    I don’t think there’s anything “creepy” about having indulged in cannabis and LSD as a teenager. I did it, and so did most of my friends of the time (late 1960s). You have some strange notions.

    As for the 1970s, no I don’t think on the whole they were as violent as now.

    I don’t think that knowledge is something consumed, like a cornish pastie. The difference between being self-taught from books and school/university is that the latter is a directed course of study. For instance, in the early 1980s I taught myself German, and then took the language at A-level in an evening class. I then realised that I was ahead of my peers in some respects, but way behind them in others.

    Most economies are mixed economies, in that they combine elements of socialism and capitalism. For instance, many European countries have universal healthcare funded by taxation. Again, few if any countries practice untrammelled capitalism. For instance, may countries have measures to prevent monopolies arising.

    #114144

    dom
    Participant

    I take no side(s). I merely suggest than nothing is going to work out well ’til the ruler of a gang, cult, corporation, city, state, nation, or planet until or unless there’s an 8=3 on the hot seat. All Thelemites want their little John or Jane to grow up to be a Magister Templi, don’t the

    I don’t talk politics on here either. Politics is for some confused ruach just listening to itself distract itself from the real issues. I put Thelema (and that includes Quabalah) over and above political discussion. Why? Because it is over and above political discussion. Greed (a woolly term anyway) is found on ‘the left’ and ‘the right’ and in all walks of existence…

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #114147

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    I don’t talk politics on here either

    But you do. See your remarks on Socialism, Communism and Capitalism a few posts ago, in response a remark by ignant666.

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