Home Forums Thelema Thelema What of the children of Thelemites?

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  • #114152

    dom
    Participant

    @mstayley

    But you do. See your remarks on Socialism, Communism and Capitalism a few posts ago, in response a remark by ignant666.

    Yeah but I never mentioned political parties, never criticised what this or that politician allegedly did or said. I commented on different systems of economic organization and how if Russia was still Soviet you would be hard pressed to find an adolescent who didn’t wear flapping flared jeans. I happen to think that capitalism is more of a rational efficient machine than any alternative. Any attempt to reverse it is basically insane.

    Here’s my political views here;

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #114154

    Michael Staley
    Participant

    @dom

    In practice, most economies partake of both capitalism and socialism. For instance, many European countries have a universal healthcare system funded from taxation, such as the NHS over here. Again, most economies manage the market to a lesser or greater extent, for instance with anti-monopoly legislation. There’s health and safety legislation, minimum wage, maternity leave, etc.

    It’s really not an either/or situation.

    Here’s my political views here;

    You’re welcome to it. There’s much that I admire about The Book of the Law, in particular the first chapter, but not the political views that some of its adherents champion, as did Crowley himself.

    #114155

    Shiva
    Participant

    My point remains: Nothing will work out properly unless there’a an 8=3 in charge. As in all matters occult and on-display, he or she will be mostly in the background, with properly-attained 7=4s doing the heavy lifting. The problem with tis concept is that it’s paradoxical, and rather than poke sticks about who is being “political,” I would rather have seen some upstart proclaim, “But that’s a paradox!”

    Let’s pretend that Tiger wrote a poem containing an accusation of paradox. After deciphering the haiku-poem-prose, it would read:

    But a Magister
    now beyond the world
    of form and matter
    is no longer Abel
    to stand against the Cane

    Excuse me, Tiger. I am putting words on your keyboard in order to illustrate a further point … without disturbing the sensibilities of the aggressive and nitpicking of the censors.

    Yes, you are right. That’s what I meant about being in the “background.” Like V5 was to OM. There’s a lot more to this, but under the rule of ten percent, I will not persist, but will return to the commie-anarch father who allows great freedom to his son, while subtly demanding standards with the threat of backyard residence. Some kids would just erect a tent and ignore the grades.

    I find nothing in Ignant’s report(s) to pick on.

    As to a previous comment about parents buying heroin for kids … creepy (was that the word?)

    The allocation of the word “creepy” to a situation in which the allocator has not be placed himself is … not walking in another’s shoes before making a judgment.

    Let me be more plane on the plain of Malkuth: My younger brother had a defective (undersized) vertebra at the base of his spine. This produced lifelong pain from an early age. Eventually, the pain became so bad that a doc put him on high doses of oxycontin, the drug promoted as being “non-addictive,” and has led to the present opioid crisis, with the pharm company now under the gun.

    Then the opioid crisis led to a change in pain med protocols, my brother was deemed to be over-dosing and cut off from his supply of oxy. This was the same act that killed Aleister, according to a news article of the day; see The Beast’s Last Curse. So he turned to illegal heroin.

    When the SWAT team broke ino his house with flash-bangs and breakage (they were after someone else. I was there watching, circa 2015), the subsequently searched the house and found a small packet of heroin. The sergeant in change had a long discussion with me (about his medical state). Seemingly convinced that my brother was not a dealer, he let him off the hook and the whole nightmare went away.

    My brother was earning 3x the income of myself and my wife combined. But every month his entire income would run out a few days before his next pension payment came in (heroin is expensive, but cheaper than illegal oxy). He would appear at my house and request money for heroin.

    So now we’re standing in that other person’s shoes. What to do? My wife and I found this to be inconvenient, especially since he showed up in a state of withdrawal and radiated an unpleasant vibration. There was no problem about getting paid back as I paid his bills from his account, and I always paid myself back as soon as the gravy train rolled in.

    I always expressed dissatisfaction with hie requests, but I always gave him $60 to $300, on loan for a few days. Why? Because I wanted him to be happy? No. Because I wanted him pain free? More of less, Yes. Because I wanted to avoid the alternative(s)? Absolutely YES. Why? What was the typical alternative?

    On the third day of withdrawal (not because I gave no money, but because there was no substance available) it started with me having to drive him to the emergency room, an hour away, and hanging around for HOURS while they decided to give him a shot of morphine for his back pain.

    I expressed such displeasure at his inability to make a slight adjustment and stretch his budget to include continual coverage for pain relief, AND the hospital(s) soon caught on to his true state (withdrawal) and they’d say, “There’s nothing we can do for you,” that this cenario turned to him calling an ambulance to haul him to the emergency room> But still, “There’s nothing we can do for you,” reigned … and I was called by the hospital(s) to pick him up. Ambulance-riding is a one-way trip.

    This story gets even worse, what with the total destruction of 7 cars in altercations with concrete walls, houses, and other cars. Happily no one ever died. But let’s leave those details unembellished and get back to …

    Why would anyone give a family member money for drugs? Children, brothers, parents?

    Sometimes there are factors hidden and unknown.

    #114156

    dom
    Participant

    You’re welcome to it. There’s much that I admire about The Book of the Law, in particular the first chapter, but not the political views that some of its adherents champion, as did Crowley himself.

    Well AC gave some of his views on economic management and human happiness in chapter 23 in The Confessions;

    It is said, I know not how truly, that a Mexican town, in a corner near the Rio Grande, was, in the course of the revolution and counter- revolution of the contending vultures in 1917, cut off for a time from all communication with the rest of the country. Presumably everyone buried whatever cash he happened to have. At least it vanished rapidly and strangely. The city gasped. What the devil was to be done? Being folk of sense, they soon collected their wits and said: “All right. It’s no good crying for the moon. We’ve got to go on exchanging wealth. We’ll simply barter on credit and strike a weekly balance.
    “If anyone fancies he’s got a soft thing –If we haven’t got pesos we’ve plenty of string.”
    The result was surprising. Business went on pretty well as in the past, with this remarkable difference: the motive for cheating and hording and gambling was gone. One could, of course, amass a fortune on the balance sheet of the town council; but it would be hard to cash in. So nobody troubled to outwit his neighbour or plot his ruin. They contented themselves with aiming at comfort and ease. Old enemies became fast friends; the usurers turned their hands to productive purposes; the loafers and spongers and gamblers realized that they must work or starve. The whole town prospered; poverty disappeared; financial anxiety ceased to exist; the moral tone of the community became almost angelic. Everyone had plenty to do, plenty to eat, plenty of leisure and plenty of pleasure. Everyone was happy. Of course it was too good to last. Communications were restored and a month later society had relapsed into a dog-fight for dollars.

    @shiva

    Similarly and in the same chapter AC discusses his admiration for Diaz ’33 degree Mason (?) who presumably led Mexico at the time he (AC) lived there. If I’m not mistaken it is this man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porfirio_Díaz

    #114157

    ignant666
    Participant

    An interesting description of a functional anarchist microcosm, david.

    If you want to discuss the relationship of Thelema to politics, why not start a thread devoted to that? There have been many over the years though not in quite a while.

    That way this thread, the one i started and you revived, can stick to the topic of Thelema and parenting, rather than going off on this tangent caused by my joking response to you asking if i was a “liberal” parent.

    #114158

    Shiva
    Participant

    Since I have raised no children, having produced none, I am not in a position of authority to say anything personal. But, as a long-term “uncle” of children raised by Thelemites, and having observed children in a communal setting, I have a concept (the angels brought it to me):

    In most descriptions of domestic violence, it is recognized that the abuser was once abused in a similar fashion (sidenote: alcohol is often involved also). There are not a lot of domestic success stories, because they don’t contain violence and breaking of the law. From what I know of the lineage and training of several people, to observing them raise their children, I can say that, as a rule of thumb, that people tend to raise their kids in a similar manner to how they themselves were raised, irrespective of Thelemic, Christian, Muslim, Communist, Jewish, or Atheistic status. Other cultures, not named, are applicable.

    In short, most parents raise children the same way they were raised, without regard for current philosophical inclinations. Exceptions, of course, may be entertained.

    #114159

    dom
    Participant

    A thread devoted to Thelema and politics? I’m a fully paid up member of a trade union and my parents and I have been involved in union disputes. If you can find two or three similar Lashtal members who can claim similar I’ll consider it.

    #114160

    Shiva
    Participant

    d: … my parents and I have been involved in union disputes.

    This statement is entered as evidence in the “raise children the way they were raised” concept, which is presently under non-discussion.

    #114161

    ignant666
    Participant

    Why do we need a minyan of union members to discuss politics again?

    As a union member for 20 years at my last long-term job, i suppose i would qualify to join, but probably better to stick to discussing AC/Thelema here.

    Yes, david, college faculty are typically union members in the US- AFL-CIO, baby!

    As to Shiva’s point: Well, you got your nature, and you got your nurture. My son has been raised in a rather more bohemian fashion than i was, but there are certainly things in common between how i was raised and how my son has been raised. But then i married a woman from a culture with quite different ideas about childrearing, so that led to much that was different to how i was raised.

    I am reminded of the old Redd Foxx line “Follow a ugly kid home some time, see if he don’t got ugly parents.” See also apple, tree.

    #114162

    Tiger
    Participant

    i’ve heard parents say
    why spend so much money on an ivy league school
    the professors are just as good if not better
    and make the mistake of sending their child to the other school

    i work at an ivy league (though just a staff member) and i recommend it’s worth the money
    brown university where i work is considered the most liberal school out of the ivy
    they are belittled as not having a conservative curriculum
    they say thats what makes their students prepared
    the 18 year old isn’t shoved down a pipeline
    they must find their way and have more than 4 years to figure it out
    it’s called an open curriculum

    the pipeline and 4 year is also offered

    the great thing about the ivy
    is not their curriculum

    i got accepted into Pratt and RISD took courses in both schools as well T.A. courses
    The Art schools have better professors produce better artists
    The Brown Art depart produces crap for art
    but they have the network into government, wall street, the world bank and the greater world
    which has money to spend but has no eye for what is good art and what is bad
    the brown art students make more money

    All the top notch companies come to recruit here
    Presidents of nations, of companies, the cream of the crop come to lecture here
    the students can meet them ask questions learn and make contacts

    i just need to figure out which one is the on button and which one is the off button, get it right and on time
    to get the show rolling ( my job hopefully for longer than the moment )

    i come across students who are not the children of the cream of the crop
    and make the mistake of saving by living at home
    instead of campus which is allowed for locals
    it is required to live on campus for the first two years
    part of the network process

    i recommend the ivy highly

    ————————————————
    the corporation found out there was a mutiny on the bounty
    and corrected the/ir mistake .

    they pay the human resources department
    so you can go to them

    you pay the union
    but they got the head of the union on their side

    at least one would think
    thats a secret
    the community of sheep
    might not suspect

    what the 1 % has figured out

    ——————————
    maybe another thread
    for the Bakunin
    anarchists, political philosophy, Social engineers
    ————————
    can
    able
    tong
    beyond

    must
    go
    rise

    #114165

    Anonymous

    @dom :I agree, there’s something creepy about teens doing weed and acid.

    Now I do think your comment is very narrow minded, but I do understand you only have your own limited upbringing, environment and history to make your judgement. Thelemically speaking I can only hope that as you rise up through the grades from beginner on to advanced, you will open up more as you learn.

    Dom, I sold acid when I was 14 partook a fair bit too and before you start going “yeah but you are nuts” many many of us did drugs back then, I sold acid to others around my age. This was the 80’s after all. I have also smoked weed on pretty much a daily basis since I was 13.

    Now my D4 came home to me after her hell with a 420 tattoo on her arm and a habit of weeding. So I did something stunning that if your comment is anything to go by, will shock you. I let her smoke pot when she wanted. I offered her mine, shared, let her sniff the many bags of difference. Every time she would get stoned and have a conniption I would point it out to her and talk to her about it… you know something, it only took six months…. she doesn’t smoke weed now and shes still 14.

    I did the same to her with alcohol. and what do you know the last bottle of vodka I bought two months ago is still full and so is the rum. me Im allergic to potatoes so vodka and me don’t have a great relationship and yuck to rum so they will be sitting there until the cows come home as D2 and S1 do not drink even though they are of age

    @shiva All Thelemites want their little John or Jane to grow up to be a Magister Templi, don’t they?

    hell no … I could sprout my DNA theory here but I’ll behave and keep it short. S2 is the only one of my tribe that has ever displayed close to my inquisitiveness and thirst “to create a machine to bring unicorns into the real world” and S1 is rocking along moderating and being in charge of his corner of cyberspace Neither of the two or their 4 sisters have burnt a 9 foot diameter circle into the backyard and created a blood ritual with a visiting friend to dedicate themselves to pan/pandora at 14… though that would of made me smile if they had.

    Plus really I would prefer my kids to be themselves, the world has one anti christ.. whereas might be nice to have another six truths and justices running around I wouldn’t wish that school on an enemy.. let alone my kids. In the words of another famous Mcleod There can be only one.

    @shiva This story gets even worse, what with the total destruction of 7 cars in altercations with concrete walls, houses, and other cars. Happily no one ever died. But let’s leave those details unembellished and get back to …

    Why would anyone give a family member money for drugs? Children, brothers, parents?

    Sometimes there are factors hidden and unknown.

    Nods in agreement

    @dom A thread devoted to Thelema and politics? I’m a fully paid up member of a trade union and my parents and I have been involved in union disputes. If you can find two or three similar Lashtal members who can claim similar I’ll consider it.

    many years a Union delegate, member of labor councils, asked to run for labor party, committee member and president of progress associations, sole administrator of local community groups and a father who crossed TWU picket lines and refused to allow union fees to be taken from his wages…..made for interesting family dinners

    BUT

    yeah nah to politics threads and politics anywhere near here… as with what ignant said, Im pretty far left but then again I can flip over to right .. and therein lays the problem of world politics PARTY PREFERRED, Government VERSUS opposition and left VERSUS right

    #114172

    Shiva
    Participant

    m: I could sprout my DNA theory here but I’ll behave and keep it short.

    That’s okay. Most of us understand the DNA theory. You shall be as you are, and not another. Not one of you shall be lifted up or tossed town. Etc. I apologize for writing “Magister Templi,” when Megatron specifies, “Magister Templi or equivalent.” They say there’s hope and help in other spells, too.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  Shiva.
    #114174

    Anonymous

    Not one of you shall be lifted up or tossed town.

    Not one? None

    lifted up tossed down.. sounds very phaeton like

    I could say I am lucky that I hold a full deck ..I have grown a lovely set of balls… I call them intestinal fortitude
    luck has nothing to do with it and blessings can be curses when you put them in a mirror ..bah Im rattling on about nothing again

    That’s okay. Most of us understand the DNA theory

    most of you know more than me then….

    my DNA theory is more a reincarnation theory of why children are not the parents “heirs” as such and why it took 2000 years for this all to come around again. in other words for the “conditions to be met” I am still fine tuning writing it out .. another fascinating truth

    You shall be as you are, and not another.

    thank you for that quote.. I say the same thing often…. I am going to pretty that up, make it a meme and post it on facebook .. my answer usually is.. if you are going to make me something I’m not can you make me a unicorn please

    calling Crowley megatron is new to you isn’t it, I have only heard you say that recently .. another piece of code put together?

    #114189

    dom
    Participant

    @mayet

    Thelemically speaking I can only hope that as you rise up through the grades from beginner on to advanced, you will open up more as you learn.

    You don’t know what “grade” I is/are my son. “Thelemicaly speaking” some of us don’t need weed or acid.

    Dom, I sold acid when I was 14

    ……………. so what? You don’t shock me. I’m an avid crime channel viewer.

    I have also smoked weed on pretty much a daily basis since I was 13.

    Was it necessary?

    Why?

    If you want that relaxed euphoria you could go jogging or do some other sport. If you can’t do that you could lift weights and feel spaced out but remain alert whilst enhancing your physical strength. If you want to expand your mind then join in with the housework or the gardening.

    I mean a lot of potheads strike me as rebels who are rebelling against something that isn’t there. Perhaps it’s their father’s shadow I dunno. Like Leary said, they’re trapped in a little hedonistic sub-culture…….dude.

    Now my D4 came home to me after her hell with a 420 tattoo on her arm and a habit of weeding. So I did something stunning that if your comment is anything to go by, will shock you.

    Am I the only one around here who doesn’t have to google “d4”? Still no joy.

    Let’s ‘ave a look then….

    I let her smoke pot when she wanted. I offered her mine, shared, let her sniff the many bags of difference. Every time she would get stoned and have a conniption I would point it out to her and talk to her about it… you know something, it only took six months…. she doesn’t smoke weed now and shes still 14.

    So what conclusion are we to draw from this,your response to my earlier comment?

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom. Reason: Leary bit
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  dom.
    #114196

    belmurru
    Participant

    dom –
    “Am I the only one around here who doesn’t have to google “d4”? Still no joy.”

    Context will tell you. I am barely paying attention to this thread, but I can figure out that D=daughter and S=son, and that with 2 sons and 4 daughters Mayet has at least 6 children.

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