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grouchotrout
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25/07/2020 5:36 pm  

Greetings fellow beings!

I hope this post is in the relevant forum.

I'm considering contacting the Esoteric Order of Dagon for membership. Does anyone know if they are still active? Is/was any body a member? Thoughts, opinions?

Thanks in advance!


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ignant666
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26/07/2020 12:00 am  

I always had the impression this was more of a HPL fandom group than a serious occult order, but may well be wrong.

On the other hand, if it is real, and serious, you would actually want to join?

You're not one of those tentacle-cultists, are you?


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djedi
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26/07/2020 1:26 am  
Posted by: @grouchotrout

Does anyone know if they are still active?

Not since the feds raided Innsmouth back in '27.


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ignant666
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26/07/2020 1:51 am  
Posted by: @djedi

Not since the feds raided Innsmouth back in '27.

It's like the "OTO"- there's the historical one, and then revivals.

And it turns out that there are two different E.'.O.'.D.'.'s, one a HPL fandom/writer's group, and the other pursuing actual occult ends:

http://esotericorderofdagon.org/eod%20additional%20information.html

It turns out that you have come to the right place (other than info@esotericorderofdagon.org), as a certain long-time member here is listed on their site as among "[f]ormer and current members"; surprised he has not yet spoken up. Assuming they are not great big fibbers taking his name in vain.

Surprised at this affiliation if true, as they appear to be exactly what i meant by "tentacle cultists", from their site, history lection, and name. I had no idea they had groups.


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djedi
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26/07/2020 2:21 am  

Thank you for working to bring that to us, @ignant666. I remember seeing that very information page years ago, and its image did flash in mind when I first read the OP. I never would have thought, when I first visited that website, that I might some day count myself among one of those listed. What an interesting course I've taken.

Personally, I like what they do. I see it as a kind of magical modal fictionalism. And if the Cthulhu stuff works, then it works. That's all even the hardest of sciences could ask. 

The website does remind me, though, of a similar one I stumbled across and never got the full story. The 'Blue Brethren'. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/


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ignant666
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26/07/2020 2:39 am  
Posted by: @djedi

The 'Blue Brethren'.

Intriguing; i used to sell weed to at least one person listed as a "Blue Brother" back in the '90s. He was a Thelemite and we often discussed AC when he was copping and smoking his purchases with me; i was one of two Thelemite delivery guys at the (very small) NYC weed delivery service i worked at at the time (grad school side gig); the other one is now the owner (prosperity gospel, yo).

Amended- OK, my old custy Richard Metzger (who i doubt will be mad i posted this when he sees it; he is a journalist who has mentioned smoking reefer only in, well, practically everything he ever wrote) is the only "Blue Brother" listed; without reading more, i am ready to opine: my guess is this "order" is a manifestation of his sense of humor.

His website is https://dangerousminds.net/ Tell him Travis the Thelemite delivery guy with dark hair (not the blond dude) from "Dr. Schmengie" says what up.

Anyone who reads HPL and wants to get with the Old Ones deserves anything they get. I find this baffling- "Why, yes, let's evoke humanity's ancient enemies!" But i guess the desire to be "bad" and "evil" runs deep among some.


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grouchotrout
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26/07/2020 7:46 am  

Forgive me, I'm at work on my phone and under the influence, heheh - I'm eager to reply to all the great comments above and too impatient to get a handle on the quote function ATM.

I sent an email to the EOD website several hours before I made this post. Again, I can be a bit impatient at times, which is ironic in this context, because I'm horrible at checking my e-mails and digital correspondences.

I've been lurking anon here for a short time and was well aware that Mr. Staley was present, in addition to his membership listed on the EOD, which is part of the reason I'm here now.

As for the "spooky" aspects of Lovecraft - I'll not mention the fact that more blood has been spilled in the name of the Sun, Moon, Saturn, etc than any Lovecraftian entity, as far as far as I know. Speaking for myself, I think HP may have been in tune with certain "planes" and associated forces, but had little or no context for his experiences. This, in concert with his extreme xenophobia, set the stage for his subjective experience of horror when encountering such things.

Besides, I've heard plenty of non-Lovecraftian mages speak of the Abyss and the supernals in hushed tones tinged with dread. I equate the majority of the Lovecraftian pantheon with supernal-esque forces beyond the relatively tiny unit of consciousness of the individual. Initiations and/or a significant expansion of consciousness should be an experience filled with awe, or awe-full, to some degree, imho. Even hardcore materialists talk of the mind-blowing, awesome majesty of gazing up at the stars. I can assure you all, I have no desire to be "bad" or "evil", although some may want to dive into semantic antics. 

I don't think I mentioned in my intro post that I never got into Lovecraft until this year. I was aware and respected his influence via Re-Animator, Evil Dead, etc, but I assumed he was this dry, stuffy style author because of youth and ignorance during the period when I was actively seeking out fiction books. Once I discovered magick, fiction seemed quaint and boring, honestly. But I've come back around sincerely then.

I'm bonus super stoked at the reference to the Blue Brethren! I've read all the surviving materials available and find the whole deal very interesting. I had no idea Metzger was involved. This makes sense considering the tone of some of the BB materials. Any more info about them would be much appreciated, if any body's holdin'.

Dang, this post seems real long! Apologies if it's a slog. I've been sort of randomly filling in bits while working. Really appreciate the replies!


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The HGA of a Duck
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26/07/2020 1:54 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

my old custy Richard Metzger

I used to visit his "Disinformation" site back in the day, it may even be thanks to him that I discovered RAW and later on AC.


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ignant666
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26/07/2020 2:22 pm  

Yeah, Disinfo was really good at first, and then i think he sold it, and it declined, and died.

As to OT: Lovecraft was doing his level best to think of the most evil entities he could. He did a good job. Not for me, but to each his own.

I will admit to a long-simmering project to build a gigantic ferro-concrete Cthulhu idol in my front yard, which i am certain my neighbors would appreciate.


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Shiva
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26/07/2020 7:51 pm  
Posted by: @grouchotrout

I'll not mention the fact that more blood has been spilled in the name of the Sun, Moon, Saturn, etc than any Lovecraftian entity, as far as far as I know.

But you just mentioned that fact. Someone will surely call you out for "not" and "doing" in the same sentence, which of course might be representative of a Master exercising his paradox.

 


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ignant666
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26/07/2020 8:00 pm  

There is a Greek rhetorical term/name, that slips my mind due to being old and stupid, for that move, of calling attention to a thing by saying you won't call attention to it: the example used when i was taught it was "Far be it from me to call attention to Senator D'Amato's ethical shortcomings...", said Senator being a notoriously corrupt '80s NY pol.

Possible evidence of @grouchotrout's classical education? Or perhaps training in certain verbal "low blows" sometimes employed in "said Octagon" (as our favorite Scientology-Curious Scandinavian might say)?

Only time will tell, and the bookies if Paul takes up HA's suggestion of betting markets on Octagon bouts.


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Michael Staley
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27/07/2020 12:27 am  
Posted by: @grouchotrout

I'm considering contacting the Esoteric Order of Dagon for membership. Does anyone know if they are still active? Is/was any body a member? Thoughts, opinions?

I don't think they are still active. I haven't had any contact with the founder of it for a few years now. Every now and then someone emails to ask my help in contacting the EOD, but there is no response to my emails either. It could be of course that they operate outside the glare of the internet.

I became a member of the EOD in the early to mid 1990s. In the late 1990s there was a split into two factions; one dissipated fairly quickly, the other lingering for a while longer.

My own view of the EOD is that it was too much in thrall to what one might term the Lovecraftian pantheon of deities, rather than the underlying dynamism of imagination which is behind such expressions.

 

 


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Jamie J Barter
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27/07/2020 1:18 am  
Posted by: @michael-staley

My own view of the EOD is that it was too much in thrall to what one might term the Lovecraftian pantheon of deities, rather than the underlying dynamism of imagination which is behind such expressions.

Yes, I agree with your exact assessment; and seldom can there ever have been such a wealth of oftentimes condemnatory detail hidden behind those four innocuous little words "too much in thrall"!

Not enthrall in thrall at all by the evocation, elevation or worship of Dagon & other similar members of the Cthulhu pantheon/ mythos,

Norma N Joy Conquest


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Shiva
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27/07/2020 1:27 am  
Posted by: @michael-staley

there was a split into two factions ...

How unusual.

 


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Michael Staley
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27/07/2020 3:07 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Yes, I agree with your exact assessment; and seldom can there ever have been such a wealth of oftentimes condemnatory detail hidden behind those four innocuous little words "too much in thrall"!

I'm very interested in Lovecraft. Some of his stories really stir the imagination. Some of my favourites are Beyond the Wall of Sleep, The Dreams in the Witch-House, and The Case of Charles Dexter Ward. These stories set forth some really interesting ideas and speculations. This is from the opening paragraph of Beyond the Wall of Sleep, for instance:

…From my experience, I cannot doubt but that man, when lost to terrestrial consciousness, is indeed sojurning in another and uncorporeal life of far different nature from the life we know, and of which only the slightest and most indistinct memories exist after waking… We may guess that in dreams life, matter, and vitality, as the earth knows such things, are not necessarily constant; and that time and space do not exist as our waking selves comprehend them. Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on this terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon.

Lovecraft maintained a prolific and often-lengthy correspondence, some of which has been preserved in the five-volume Selected Correspondence. One of my favourite passages is this, from a letter to Clark Ashton Smith in 1930:

.…The true function of phantasy is to give the imagination a ground for limitless expansion, & to satisfy aesthetically the sincere & burning curiosity & sense of awe which a sensitive minority of mankind feel toward the alluring & provocative abysses of unplumbed space & unguessed entity which press in upon the known world from unknown infinities & in unknown relationships of time, space, matter, force, dimensionality, & consciousness.

It's well-known, I think, that some of Lovecraft's stories were inspired by dreams. Arkham House published a very interesting volume a few decades ago now, called Dreams and Fancies, in which an account by Lovecraft of a dream is followed by the story which it inspired.

I have the impression that Grant first came across Lovecraft's work when young, perhaps in the early 1940s. His first published references to Lovecraft came in Hidden Lore, the seventh in the series of Carfax Monographs published in the early 1960s. Discussing the role of fiction in occultism, Grant suggested that some writers were, whether they knew it or not, drawing upon a body of hidden lore:

Being disguised as fiction, little resistance is offered by the mind, and the psychic sensor is thus bypassed. These facts or fictions, call them what we will, are accepted at their true value by the subconsciousness because at that level exists the storehouse of racial and atavistic experience, which knows the truth of these matters and needs only a hint to bring them uponce more into the active arena of consciousness.

In the same Monograph, he refers specifically to Lovecraft as describing:

. . . transcosmic terrors engendered by a contemplation of space. Not necessarily physical space in the sense of remote voids – though this concept is one of his themes – but the space which envelops and actually interpenetrates physical objects and which is peopled with hosts of entities invisible to
normal vision.

And again in the same Monograph, discussing The Necronomicon which features in several of Lovecraft's stories:

Lovecraft mentions an ancient grimoire wherein, he claims, is set forth the precise method and procedure for establishing traffic with these monstrous entities and their interspatial abodes. This grimoire way well have a rootage in the strange calls or keys of Dr Dee. A certain little-known grimoire indeed exists which yields a richly weird assortment of Names and Powers well according with Lovecraft’s notions of such primordial yet mighty intelligences. Who may say whether he did not, by chance, discover some sealed and forgotten sphere of consciousness upon the fringe of which magicians like Dee, Lévi and Crowley also touched?

This idea was developed in the chapter ‘Barbarous Names of Evocation’ in The Magical Revival, a table being presented which set out suggestive similarities between, and affinities with, elements of Lovecraft’s stories on the one hand and aspects of Crowley’s work on the other. Grant was not
thereby equating the two, but merely speculating that the affinities and similarities suggested a common source, a hidden lore with myriad aspects which various artists have tapped, and facets of which they have woven into their work.

Grant was interested in Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos with its pantheon of deities not as some earlier form of worship to be revived, but for its utility. In Outer Gateways, Grant took the matter further, suggesting that the Cthulhu Mythos could be seen as a means to an end, the end being the undivided awareness of Advaita:

This brings us to a consideration of the Cthulhu Mythos, which reflects vastly ancient pre-human lore. Like other accounts of unclassifiable phases of earth’s history, the Cthulhu Cult epitomises the subconsciousness and the forces outside terrestrial awareness. It may be said in passing that
true creativity can occur only when these forces are invoked to flood with their light the magical network of the mind. For purposes of explanation the mind may be envisaged asdivided into three rooms, the edifice which contains thembeing the only real or permanent principle. These rooms are:

1) Subconsciousness, the dream state;
2) Mundane consciousness, the waking state;
3) Transcendental consciousness, veiled in the non-initiate by the state of sleep.

The compartments are further conceived as being connected with the house that contains them, by a series of conduits or tunnels. The house represents trans-terrestrial consciousness. The invoked forces – Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth, etc. – are then understood, not as malignant or destructive entities but as the dynamic energies of consciousness the functions of which are to blast away the delusion of separate existence (the rooms of our illustration).

It's safe to assume, I think, that this is not something that Lovecraft - with his antipathy to Eastern mysticism - had in mind, but it certainly resonates with me.


grouchotrout, christibrany, djedi and 2 people liked
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Tiger
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27/07/2020 3:35 pm  
image

If one looks; clandestine agents with hidden agendas behind the scenes may be apprehended. Perhaps on a floor that is not listed on the elevator, an abandoned warehouse or some desolate place where nefarious activity might possibly rear its head. Obscured throughout the times and in different spaces The potencies , of strange forms, the psychic content, composed by sorceries within the fields of effects that mold the differentiating force, were placed and planted by Nyarlathotep; in the deepest layers of the magnetic supraphysical vital astral fluid. Whereby they lurk to precipitate interruptions in the ordinary bandwith of attention. As the foreboding shift in consciousness meets the magnetic atmosphere; the transgressive states that have their way, transfix themselves regardless of what you think, without any possibility of escape. Beneath your skin and in your blood the dazzling fascination will infect, derange and overwhelm, as the buzzards descend. Another feather is put on the scale.
You have all you need to come to this juncture within yourself; to draw and attract such an entrance.
Best of luck !


ignant666
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27/07/2020 3:55 pm  

Thank you for that long and interesting post, Michael.

I am a huge Lovecraft fan, and grew up among the little-changed New England settings of his stories, and have lived in Providence, and as i believe i may have mentioned, Brooklyn. My brother, also a HPL fan, used to live in one of HPL's former homes in Providence; my mom worked at the Hay library, which holds his papers.

I usually get through everything he wrote about once a year, and realize i am behind on this this (having read every word written by Agatha Christie, and also almost every word written by Peter Cheyney (and of course many other books) so far this Plague Year).

The cultist tales, especially The shadow over Innsmouth, "The horror at Red Hook", and  "The haunter of the dark", and the stories of nameless horror around New England (ie "The Dunwich horror"), are my favorites, but i identify more with Detective Malone, or the nameless traveler to Innsmouth, than the cultists.

As i said above, HPL worked hard to invent and describe with many, many unusual adjectives the most evil, repellent, and horrifying deities and other entities he could; and makes clear that contact with them inevitably results in obsession and madness. To each his own; not for me.

Though i find myself strangely compelled to look up ferro-concrete fabrication methods...

 


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The HGA of a Duck
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27/07/2020 4:07 pm  
Posted by: @michael-staley

dimensionality

🥂


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christibrany
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27/07/2020 4:15 pm  

@grouchotrout

 

To echo Michael's sentiments I don't think they are really active anymore.

I was a very short-lived Probationer in the EOD back in about 2012 until I changed my mind to focus on A.:.A.:. work.  The founder/head was very interesting but seemed to not really have time for the organisation.  He would promise publications or workings and nothing would materialise.  Nice guy though. 

 

Like many of said above, the value of HPL's work in my opinion lies not so much in the specific deities or 'monsters' themselves, but in the way these atavistic ideas represent the subconscious, and also the prehistoric mind.  I think HPL tapped astrally into a very ancient current perhaps even a past history of Earth, which terrified him.  

There is a lot to be said of his fear of the sea, and sea creatures. I think a lot of it is a kind of repressed sexuality. 


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Michael Staley
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27/07/2020 4:28 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

As i said above, HPL worked hard to invent and describe with many, many unusual adjectives the most evil, repellent, and horrifying deities and other entities he could; and makes clear that contact with them inevitably results in obsession and madness. To each his own; not for me.

For me neither, but my main attraction to Lovecraft's work is to experience the vistas of imagination opened up - for instance, the passage I quoted from a letter of his to Clark Ashton Smith.


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ignant666
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27/07/2020 4:56 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

I think a lot of it is a kind of repressed sexuality. 

Ya think? There is no evidence that he ever consummated his brief marriage (to a Jewish woman, BTW), or ever had sex with anyone ever in his life.

One of the reasons he is so incredibly racist is his total horror at what he sees as the fecundity of immigrants and blacks, which is generally considered to be inspired by his time living in Brooklyn (in, natch, Red Hook), and in the then slum of Fox Point in Providence (now very gentrified of course).

An oft-quoted remark in my family was an ex-CIA Providence WASP patriarch's irritated retort to his wife, who had proposed a trip to a villa in Tuscany: "Goddammit, Dazzle [her twin brother is 'Razzle'], if i wanted to look at fucking Italians, i'd go to Fox Point!"


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christibrany
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27/07/2020 6:35 pm  

@ignant666

LOL

Well I recall reading in his biography that he is said to have slept with his wife once or twice, but she mentioned in passing he preferred to keep his clothes on. Kind of a 'mormon shirt' thing I guess.....


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Shiva
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27/07/2020 6:38 pm  
Posted by: @tiger

some desolate place where nefarious activity might possibly rear its head.

Oh please STOP!  You are scarring me and opening the door to more lurking evil (duality impersonating, or in, the human form).

Posted by: @christibrany

I was a very short-lived Probationer in the EOD back in about 2012 until I changed my mind to focus on A.:.A.:. work. 

2012. The End of the Mayan Calendar (slightly miscalculated). A big deal major year for me. And you "Quit the Darkness and Sought the Light."

RTC was right. 2012 was some sort of pivotal year ... but he couldn't explain it properly without couching it in metaphors that elevated himself and caused all non-converted believers to eat Bettle Dung at midnight.

Posted by: @christibrany

He would promise publications or workings and nothing would materialise.

"How unusual."

 


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Jamie J Barter
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27/07/2020 7:10 pm  
Posted by: @shiva

RTC was right. 2012 was some sort of pivotal year ...

Didn't he reckon it to be 1906 though? (When Liber L passed from the mouth of Aiwass unto the ear of The Beast, or summat like that)?

Not aware of any "Mayan" connection within Liber Bogus,

N Joy


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Shiva
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27/07/2020 9:37 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Didn't he reckon it to be 1906

Yes. But he repeated 2012 as the year of the manifestation of that current, conveniently located at the end of Mayanana (the source code for manana, or "tomorrow, tomorrow"), and he claimed special privileged information regarding stupendous secret data that were were to "old aeon" to grasp.

He is, in astrological terms, a Comet. He flashes by at regular intervals, which are too esoteric to determine by the cycles of man. He radiates brilliance, an emanation of the sun's invisible light reflection by its gas and dust.

Posted by: @jamiejbarter

Not aware of any "Mayan" connection within Liber Bogus,

It was announced by him, here in these hollow halls. There was some discussion about it. He seemed to imply that the End of Mayana resulted in vast breakthroughs in digital technology (which I know as Assimilation into the Borg).

You can surely ask him during the next cycle about any of this.

 


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christibrany
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27/07/2020 9:53 pm  

@shiva

 

Through the myriad symbols of dreams I had thanks to his accursed tomes I wouldn't be surprised if he will be locked up/busy/gone for quite some time.  

That's Gothic. 


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Shiva
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27/07/2020 11:37 pm  
Posted by: @christibrany

will be locked up/busy/gone for quite some time.  

Oh, I hope not. Everyone loves it when the Circus comes to town.

With the results now in from the first two cycles, named Bogus et eLGMOR, respectively speaking, we may now look forward to the final revelation of The Horus Toy(TM) in in the next book ... or two. Plus, there's the coming revelation of the Rose Diary and the Appendix containing something I know not what.

Anyway, based on the results, scattered throughout many barns, I am better prepared to get less disturbed, because of the, you know, results. What is the result of 2=0?

 


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grouchotrout
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28/07/2020 7:23 am  

@michael-staley

I'm on board with essentially everything that you stated in your long reply above. I've yet to be "enthralled" by the Lovecraftian pantheon and approach it in a very utilitarian manner. I have read that said enthrallment can be a trap of sorts when working with this paradigm. I've come to a point in my magickal career where I realize that past experiences, which were inexplicable at the time, make much more sense in the light of Grant and the Typhonian trad, despite some issues with Grant. (Issues with Grant seeming to be somewhat par for the course, based on some stuff I've come across.)

I've had encounters that match the aesthetics of Lovecraft, but my reaction was not utter horror, quite the opposite in fact. Looking back, those experiences were hugely positive influences in my life. I never made the connection with Lovecraft until very recently. A skeletal, cuttlefish, insect/spider-type character with paradoxical mantras, what resolve themselves in the future/present... This guy was the only thing that anchored my selves to utterly mad experience I was having. He provided sound guidance and advice on how to navigate this particular space, despite his horrible appearance. FWIW, I was very comforted by his presence. It was my experience of the space that was most disconcerting. Even then, that wasn't that disturbing. I find a lot of incarnated humans ideas and models of reality much more horrifying, than what I take to be something near the underlying fabric of manifest reality that we all must ultimately face at some point. Subsequent experiences with salvia only further confirmed my previous encounters. This journey seems like a moebius strip, that's also somehow a spiral...

christibany - I've always loved the ocean and see it as the physical representation of the Abyss. It seems like the Eastern mind is more comfortable with this idea. Family/surnames come first, and the pressure from most Asian families is to do good for the bigger picture, (family, community, nation/tribe) rather than make a name for ones self. The ancestors (which it take as all relevant past dead folk relevant to my current timeline) are always watching and breathing down our necks, it seems. Not scientific evidence, but it's something I've noticed, what with being raised by an Asian mother. Also, I did this totally pop-style internet quiz with a small group of mages I work with and one of the questions was, "How do you feel about the ocean?" In this case, the ocean represented ideas about death, and I totally knew how everyone would answer and I was right, lol

ignant - I hear where you're coming from. And agreed, to each his own. But for further clarification here: How many people fear death? How many people fear the unknown? My Christian mother, just today asked me to bring her a copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, as she approaches her last days. (she's not "dying", just reaching the age where thoughts of mortality are brought to the fore) "Read this to me, but throw Jesus name in there somewhere, when I pass" was what she basically said. Obviously, she's not yer average Christian! Just so happens, that Koreans performed a similar 49 day ritual for the recently deceased, in the old days, and she came across a youtube video about the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and it resonated with her. Specifically, the statements against being afraid.

Well, I guess I shouldn't be too disappointed about the EOD. I should probably work more with the spirits I've got good with and consult them for further guidance. It's just nice to be able to discuss with flesh bodies every now and then.

Thanks for all the replies! Much appreciated all! Forgive me if I didn't reply directly to your reply. I can oft be a drunk with little patience for mediated communication! Cheers, and hope yall have a good one


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Shiva
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28/07/2020 8:06 am  
Posted by: @grouchotrout

"Read this to me, but throw Jesus name in there somewhere, when I pass" was what she basically said.

This is a line too precious to pass up without posting it so I can comment on its austerity.

 


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electrum23
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31/07/2020 10:22 pm  

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ignant666
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31/07/2020 11:21 pm  

A fascinating document; thank you.

The Esoteric Order of Dagon is a degenerate cult, whose members enter into another dimension of seriously bad dreams, gaining access by horrid rites of fetish obsession. As devoted disciples of this cabal, compulsively engaged in dark convulsive personal Work, authentic encounters with atavistic entities is achieved with self-fulfilling efforts for infestation. By become a portal, and becoming successfully infused with the Outside, psychic invasion and transformation occurs.

Inviting possession by evil entities is a familiar concept to practitioners of voodoo/Santeria/candomble/macumba, but far indeed from the work of AC (with, of course, a few exceptions for minor bits of demonic possession, or according to others, his life after puberty).

One has to admire the bravado of "The Esoteric Order of Dagon is a degenerate cult".


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Michael Staley
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01/08/2020 12:59 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

Inviting possession by evil entities is a familiar concept to practitioners of voodoo/Santeria/candomble/macumba, but far indeed from the work of AC (with, of course, a few exceptions for minor bits of demonic possession, or according to others, his life after puberty).

Where, in the paragraph you quote, or indeed elsewhere in the document, is there talk of "inviting possession by evil entities"? I was a member of the EOD for several years, and as a former head of the Order I am a member of the Yaddith Lodge, but never at any time did anyone suggest "inviting possession by evil entities".

It's not hard to draw some interesting parallels, using elements of Lovectaft's Mythos. In the mid 1990s, I came across an account of a dream that someone had had of Lam with the body of a serpent. On the basis of this was created a magical practice called "The Lam-Serpent Sadhana", fusing this suggestion with my own experience some ten years previously of a working based on Section SSS of Crowley's Liber HHH. At the outset of the working, I drew a parallel between the Lam-Serpent / Fire Snake / Kundalini Serpent arising from the Muladhara, and Cthulhu arising from the Sunken City.

During my years within the EOD I had contact with many members, and cannot recall anyone suggesting that inviting possession by any of the "Lovecraft deities" was a desirable or indeed worthwhile undertaking.

 


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ignant666
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01/08/2020 1:33 am  
Posted by: @michael-staley

Where, in the paragraph you quote, or indeed elsewhere in the document, is there talk of "inviting possession by evil entities"?

Ok, fair enough, i'm engaged in hyperbole. It's only included in three of the three sentences i quoted.

Posted by: @ignant666

TThe Esoteric Order of Dagon is a degenerate cult, whose members enter into another dimension of seriously bad dreams, gaining access by horrid rites of fetish obsession. As devoted disciples of this cabal, compulsively engaged in dark convulsive personal Work, authentic encounters with atavistic entities is achieved with self-fulfilling efforts for infestation. By become a portal, and becoming successfully infused with the Outside, psychic invasion and transformation occurs.

Sentence one seems to speak of this: "horrid rites of fetish obsession" [emphasis added].

As does the second: "compulsively engaged in [...] authentic encounters with atavistic entities is achieved with self-fulfilling efforts for infestation" [emphasis added].

And also the third: "By become [sic] a portal, and becoming successfully infused with the Outside, psychic invasion and transformation occurs." [no need to add emphasis here, literally the whole sentence is solely about this topic].

All this about "obsession", "infestation", "becoming a portal", and "psychic invasion", is with reference to seeking out having these things done to oneself by the cosmically evil entities invented by HPL, such as Cthulhu, and the other HPL evil deities, monsters, and Old Ones, all of whom are depicted (to the very best of HPL's ability, and with as many adjectives as he could get his editors to pay him by the word for) as the enemies of humanity, sanity, and Light, Life, Love, and Liberty.

You colleague begins a letter to members with

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn.

and ends with

Love is the law, love under will.

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

Both "barbarous" phrases are unequivocally the chants of "degenerate cultists" calling on evil anti-human entities in the HPL stories.

And if this is all some coy play with all this, how are we to know?

And why isn't this all very very silly, either way?


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kidneyhawk
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01/08/2020 2:43 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

Both "barbarous" phrases are unequivocally the chants of "degenerate cultists" calling on evil anti-human entities in the HPL stories.

Are they really "Anti-Human" or do they only SEEM to be so as harbingers of those States of Consciousness which the Golden Dawn called "MORE than Human"-esp. when those States are abruptly interfacing with our ATTACHMENT to transient and undeveloped ("Human, All Too Human") points of view?

 

 


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ignant666
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01/08/2020 2:49 am  
Posted by: @kidneyhawk

Are they really "Anti-Human" [...]?

Well, according to Howard Philips Lovecraft, who invented this whole pantheon out his imagination, and thus has to be the ultimate authority on these entities, yes.


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The HGA of a Duck
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01/08/2020 3:14 am  

Something like the wrathful deities in Tibetan Buddhism?

image

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kidneyhawk
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01/08/2020 3:51 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

Well, according to Howard Philips Lovecraft, who invented this whole pantheon out his imagination, and thus has to be the ultimate authority on these entities, yes.

Didn't Lovecraft draw a lot of his inspiration from his Dream-Life and experiences therein? I think it's common knowledge that he was a mechanistic materialist who, never the less, was dreaming of and obsessed with certain recurring themes. There is one view that believes he was forming contact with deep levels of consciousness and not consciously prepared to assimilate these. So he fed it into his fictions. In this sense, he would NOT be the "ultimate authority" on the provenance of his inspirations.

Posted by: @duck

Something like the wrathful deities in Tibetan Buddhism?

Yes, this very much how I tend to see it!

When reading Lovecraft, I try to enter deeply into his prose. There is a charm to his writing, a sort of Victorian refinement. I try to get my mind away from the modern world and into his era. The stories read much differently that way. I recall Colin Wilson (I think from his Introduction to the Mind Parasites) writing of how he read Lovecraft in an old creaking farmhouse far from the "civilized world." In contexts like these, tales such as The Haunter in the Dark can raise the hairs on the back of your neck! 

Lovecraft wrote to unsettle, spook and entertain. But there is also an undercurrent of history and pre-history flowing in a deep dark stream, dwarfing our individual lives in its sinister cthonic flow. In this sense, he is existential and, perhaps, nihilistic.

I read Lovecraft to get the shivers, feel the fear, become rapt in the power and glory, taken with his language and, overall, to have the experience.

But then, as a Typhonian, I like to dwell upon those tales, passages and images and contemplate how they might be known when fear is abolished, when the attachments I have are dissipated, when I touch a field of consciousness that flows far beyond what I regard as myself. The first tale that opened to me this way was DAGON which I, then, read as a sequence of Initiations.

In my own experience, what I find from this approach is that a dreary, grim and black and white world (Innsmouth) opens up into a hyper-dimensionality of otherworldly color, form and awareness. We could regard all of this as steps and stages toward the Unmasking of the Mind into the Pure and Luminous Void (Clear Light).     

 

 


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Shiva
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01/08/2020 4:19 am  
Posted by: @ignant666

according to Howard ... yes.

Then they are the asuras (demons) of Hindu lore, not the devas (angels), so we're back to comparing Sumerian Black Magic Demon Contracts with the Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA or Solar Angel.

Frankly, i find this demonic, Goetic, Lovecraftic, Poetic stuff to be upwelling in interest recently, probably due to the contagion affected by departing possessees.

 


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kidneyhawk
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01/08/2020 5:00 am  
Posted by: @shiva

Then they are the asuras (demons) of Hindu lore, not the devas (angels), so we're back to comparing Sumerian Black Magic Demon Contracts with the Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA or Solar Angel.

From Wikipedia:

 

"Asuras (Sanskrit: असुर) are a class of beings or power-seeking clans related to the more benevolent Devas (also known as Suras) in Hinduism.

The asuras battle constantly with the devas"

Chogyam Trungpa understands the Asuras as a type of semi-enlightened “half way there” group of entities which succumb to the intricate subtleties of spiritual materialism and intrigue (not unlike lots of...”Thelemites”).

Cthulhu, Dagon etc are, emphatically, NOT “Asuras.” They are impersonal cosmic forces impinging upon the human consciousness. We could even say that they are a threat to the Asura realm. They threaten to overwhelm and crush through all the self-deception of the Asura-Mind.

We could say many of the Lovecraftian entities embody or express the “Dwellers on the Threshold” at various stages of break-through or Gnosis.


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ignant666
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01/08/2020 4:26 pm  

This is like arguing with folks who insist they know more about Sherlock Holmes than Conan-Doyle, or more about Batman than Bob Kane.

How can someone claim superior knowledge of fictional characters, and devices in fictional stories, to the man who wrote the stories, and invented the characters and events in those stories?


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djedi
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01/08/2020 5:05 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

How can someone claim superior knowledge of fictional characters, and devices in fictional stories, to the man who wrote the stories,

What is art, then, ignant? What is inspiration, and where does it come from, in your enlightened magician's view?


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ignant666
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01/08/2020 5:30 pm  

I can, i suppose, see the value in outraging the rational mind by forcing oneself to deliberately believe things that one knows perfectly well aren't true/real/in accord with actual experience/that are "pretend"/that are fictional, aka "bhakti yoga".

Having decided to do this, there is an argument to be made that one fictional entity is as good as another. So why not worship fictional horrors, and monsters is, i suppose, the claim.

The thing i don't get is that, having decided to do this, and having decided to do this based on the fictional characters in the pulp horror-fiction written for payment by the adjective by a New England misanthrope and rationalist/materialist atheist, some insist on wholly re-imagining and re-interpreting the fundamental natures and characteristics of the fictional characters invented by the New England misanthrope and pulp fiction churner-out.

HPL is very very clear, and uses many many recondite and squamous adjectives, in describing Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, Shub Niggurath, et al. as being unequivocally totally evil, being the ancient enemies of humanity, and driving all who have contact with them mad.

I love these stories, and have read them over and over again since i was a kid, but wanting to be an Innsmouth, or Church of Starry Wisdom, cultist means you don't really get Lovecraft (in my opinion, clearly others differ). Why fight with the man's stories? Enjoy them for what they are.


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Shiva
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01/08/2020 6:09 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

How can someone claim superior knowledge of fictional characters, and devices in fictional stories, to the man who wrote the stories, and invented the characters and events in those stories?

As metaphors, yes, the can be seen as "The Shadow," the "Dweller," and "Corona zona" himself, as Kidneyhawk suggested.

The concept that posits these "entities" as being separate identities  from the magician, mystic, or "knower" him- or herself is reasonable enough in the early stages of the Path, simply because things appear (or "seem") to be separate from one's own mental assembly.

AC suggested that we externalize the players in our game because it is "more convenient."

Later on, further up/down that Path, one recognizes that the entire cast, including the demons, the shadows, the Angel, the "old gods." and the "True Self," are mental fabrications and seen as illusion. Of course, these "mental fabrications" might be much more powerful than the linear, concrete mind of the vehicle, simply because they are the manifestation of karma.

If so, they must be dealt with. "Dealing with" such problems makes them go away, not by banishing or making tithes, but by neutralizing them, as is recommended by AC, and others, in the 2=0 maneuver.

Posted by: @djedi

What is art, then, ignant? What is inspiration, and where does it come from, in your enlightened magician's view?

Shving Ignant aside, I cry out ... "It is all illusion."

Oh, perhaps you wanted an answer more applicable to life on planet Terra not-so-firma-at-times?

Well, in that case

Posted by: @djedi

What is inspiration, and where does it come from

Pushing Ignant further away, I say: See Inspiration (Atu II). It is at Kether. Kether comes from a seemingly empty place with Hebrew or Chinese names. All this, including the "inspiration," come from the mind, an interior function. "Behold within, and not above, One Star in Sight."

I now stand back and allow Ignant to have his turn (if he hasn't done so already while I was peckering around with this post).

 


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Shiva
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01/08/2020 6:13 pm  
Posted by: @ignant666

I can, i suppose, see the value in outraging the rational mind by forcing oneself to deliberately believe things that one knows perfectly well aren't true

Oh look. As I suspected, Ignant had beaten me to the draw. But his answer is so akin to mine that one cannot see any difference in the one hole in Apis' eye where two slugs had passed.

Becoming aware of this exteriorizing set-up does not usually take place early on the Path. The aspirant almost always takes visions and concepts to be true. And they are true ... on their own plane ... just as a scaffold is true for the time it is erected.

Again ... the level of truth or fiction is relative.


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Jamie J Barter
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02/08/2020 9:08 pm  

I remember when I first came across HPL in the cheap Panther paperback reprints from the early '70s with their evocative covers thinking that, in addition to the novel conception of their world-view and excellent storytelling, how ripe his conception was for some impertinent upstart to hang onto its coat-tails and try to make a case out for its being in some way 'real'.  This went on to happen in a positive way in the sense of Colin Wilson's own treatment of it in his The Mind Parasites, which is excellent in its own write.  Unfortunately it was also fulfilled in a negative fashion by attempts by some to claim that the Necronomicon was itself actually a genuine eldritch text. (I would have preferred the Unaussprechlichen Kulten, myself).

I'm very much looking forward to reading Michael's further response to the most cogent, penetrating and pertinent points which ignant brought up in his post above of 01/08/20 at 1.33am, from his viewpoint not only as a valued @lashtal contributor and present head of the Typhonian Order but also as the one-time head of the Dagon Order/ current member of its Yaddith Lodge itself.  I expect he is giving the matter due weighty consideration and is thinking about the relevant matters in some depth which is probably why we haven't had the opportunity to read anything yet (n.b., this is not intended to be sarcastic).

N Joy


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Michael Staley
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02/08/2020 11:30 pm  
Posted by: @jamiejbarter

I expect he is giving the matter due weighty consideration and is thinking about the relevant matters in some depth which is probably why we haven't had the opportunity to read anything yet (n.b., this is not intended to be sarcastic).

No "due weighty consideration" needed, Jamie. Quite simply, I have a lot to do at present, but shall be back soon to discuss further the objections raised by ignant.


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Tiger
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03/08/2020 10:04 am  
image

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Tiger
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03/08/2020 10:29 am  

Regions of incalculable aeons, lain hidden under unfathomable depths, lie waiting beyond the tether to the established shore.


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Tiger
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04/08/2020 10:35 am  

https://youtu.be/zZreeVzaOEo


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Karkir-joharkarnt Kristkarkson
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06/08/2020 1:02 pm  

The Necronomicon: http://afrodita.rcub.bg.ac.rs/~alexp/books/necro/necro.html contains some intresting historical references.

Before the text starts it's written: "These men, publishing through CORGI Books of Chaucer Press, Ltd., Great Britain, provided a translation of a cipher manuscript of Dr. John Dee's called Liber Logaeth, a portion of a larger manuscript, the origin and nature of which is not known. Due to its history and the similarity in content to the Cthulhu Mythos, this document has been presented by these men as being, at least a portion of, the document which was the inspiration for HPL's Necronomicon."

 

- I've checked Dr. John Dee's manuscript called Liber Logaeth. I can't find anything I can read into The Necronomicon text above. They further claim the document's origin is unknown. Do you think HP Lovecraft was inspired by this document?

"The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are and the Old Ones shall be. From the dark stars They came ere man was born, unseen and loathsome They descended to primal earth.

Beneath the oceans They brooded while ages past, till seas gave up the land, whereupon They swarmed forth in Their multitudes and darkness ruled the Earth.

At the frozen Poles They raised mighty cities, and upon high places the temples of Those whome nature owns not and the Gods have cursed."

- I personally believe this part must have been inspired by Enoch's book. And there's also a reference to the Jhinn city: Irem, written about in the qhuran.


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