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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Tau M,

to clarify, Bertiaux's diagramatic example in 'Lucky Hoodoo' is directed towards the acquisition of wealth. Could the machine be altered so that, for instance, the focus is love, health, magical development etc?

Assuming there is a limit to what you can make public, is the monastery course material available for purchase by non-initiates?
Cheers J.

"TauMelchizedek" wrote:
Hye there J.,

I could make some comments 🙂 What do you mean by 'applied to seperate goals'? Magical machines are a very complex and important issue within our orders. The whole 3rd year monastery course for ex. deals with this issue - esoteric engineering. We use mental machines as well as physical machines based on esoteric radionics and gnostic energies. There are very complex mind-machines and simple ones like the diagrams or cubes. Other machines may look like radionic instruments. They can be used for a huge variety of things.

Agape

Tau M

"Hriliu9" wrote:
Tau M,
would you be prepared to comment on the use of magical machines with regards to Bertiaux's work? Grant makes some enthusiastic yet obscure references to them in his 'Cults of the Shadow'. Conversely, Bertiaux gives a concrete example in 'Lucky Hoodoo' on how to create a simple diagramatic 'machine' for wealth magic workings. Can it be assumed this technique could be applied to separate goals? There appears to be an underlying complexity (subtlety may be more correct) that I may be missing. If so, what is the logic that informs the creation of the 'machine'?
Cheers J.

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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

It would not be a problem to convert this in the appropriate way if you stay within the laws of the system. This diagram machine however is a very simple one, compared to the complex machines encountered at other parts. But it sets the path.
In regards to the Monastery lessons, check the technicians of the sacred page.YOu may be able to buy it there. However, let me be fair to say that through reading and following the monastery courses alone, one will not be able to master the voudon gnostic system. To outsiders (non initiates) the courses are supposed to be an inspiration, an example of how to see and construct a magical universe based on certain 'ideas' and esoteric logic. The keys to the inner orders and mechanics are not given there. One needs the Aflatus of the orders and one needs the guidance of a mentor at least to uncover the deeper layers of the work. Plus to get into the inner order work, one needs personal initiations etc.
Same applies to the VGW.
Nobody can call himself an initiate of the Bertiaux/Jean Maine Voudon Gnosis without being formally alligned to it. The spirits also only will work with such initiates in the deeper areas as they are bound to our current - this is in sync with the esoteric voudon tradition. That said, the course may still be indeed a great inspiration as is the VGW and very helpful surely as we have seen in the work of many people, but there is a great difference in quality and understanding of the work as an initiate and non initiate. Any member will be able to attest to this.

'best,

Tau M

"Hriliu9" wrote:
Tau M,

to clarify, Bertiaux's diagramatic example in 'Lucky Hoodoo' is directed towards the acquisition of wealth. Could the machine be altered so that, for instance, the focus is love, health, magical development etc?

Assuming there is a limit to what you can make public, is the monastery course material available for purchase by non-initiates?
Cheers J.

"TauMelchizedek" wrote:
Hye there J.,

I could make some comments 🙂 What do you mean by 'applied to seperate goals'? Magical machines are a very complex and important issue within our orders. The whole 3rd year monastery course for ex. deals with this issue - esoteric engineering. We use mental machines as well as physical machines based on esoteric radionics and gnostic energies. There are very complex mind-machines and simple ones like the diagrams or cubes. Other machines may look like radionic instruments. They can be used for a huge variety of things.

Agape

Tau M

"Hriliu9" wrote:
Tau M,
would you be prepared to comment on the use of magical machines with regards to Bertiaux's work? Grant makes some enthusiastic yet obscure references to them in his 'Cults of the Shadow'. Conversely, Bertiaux gives a concrete example in 'Lucky Hoodoo' on how to create a simple diagramatic 'machine' for wealth magic workings. Can it be assumed this technique could be applied to separate goals? There appears to be an underlying complexity (subtlety may be more correct) that I may be missing. If so, what is the logic that informs the creation of the 'machine'?
Cheers J.

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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Dear Tau M

I am quite happy to find somebody, who is qualified to comment on VGW and the Course. I met both of them three years ago approximately, I think. We were doing some research based on it. I was experimenting mostly with first chapter of VGW and I was quite positively surprised in contrary to the rest of the people. They were quite scared by very quick encounter with unpleasant contents of their unconsciousness – id encounter – I would say.

I found VGW related issues really interesting but I simply didn’t come across the Course. Not because of its content that is quite logical but because of its form. I worked as consultant and I have quite extensive experience with way of writing documents that enable others understand technology issues and I expected the same level of commitment on side “magick-technical” order’s course materials. Instead of what I expected, I encountered material that was just commenting on some teachings without using of reference system (references to other material necessary to fully understand subject and its practical implications), without using general (and very useful) system of scientific article structure, etc. Besides of that in text was again and again repeated that author of this work (Michael Aquarius – said to be different from M.B.) is ‘master of everything’ (sorry for saying it this way but I simply didn’t find better way), without giving serious piece of evidence to support this claim. I was quite exasperated about that. By the time I came across that and I consider The Course to be simply quite nice magical joke from side of order now. When I imagine some initiate waiting three years and than finding just classification of machines instead of precise description of them and of effects that can be caused by, I must heartily laugh.

This experience leads me to following question to Tau M. Your order claims that it follows scientific approach. I assume that it should use method of scientific research (hypothesis–experiment–critical_evaluation cycle, rule of experiment repeatability, citation and reference system, etc.) as well. Is that true? Or it is misunderstanding on my side? Are some materials of true scientific quality (means level of quality used by academic mathematicians or physicists for theoretical and experimental research purposes) available?

Thank you for answer.

Kind Regards

121


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Dear 121,

I well understand most people's reaction to the VGW just like you stated :-).

In regards to the Courses, I also understand some of your confusion, many people experiemce this at first, including myself back in the days. This however is based mostly in the quite demanding nature of it, being VERY technical and abstract at times, presenting a system totally different to any of the usual orders you usually encounter, and thus also contradicting things one may have previously learned.
However, the courses demand a lot of close attention and they are NOT designed to be understood rationally only, on the contrary, the principles are to be integrated into your magical persona in order to really get the full benefit. Michael Aquarius is a 'being' speaking through and related to M.B. and it makes sense when he claims he is the master of everything (related to the system) as the system and Universe of the courses is M.B.s magical Universe or rather M.A.s magical universe in which he is the supreme ruler. A very logical gnostic argument. The Courses state clearly that this system presented in the courses is a SUBJECTIVE system, created by M.B. with certain 'aid' from higher beings, utilizing the keys and secrets of his occult backgrounds, OTOA, LCN etc. So what you get is a product of this 'using' which is perfectly designed to lead by example, to help a student step by step to create his own magical universe, to inspire and teach.
As I have stated once before, the courses are NOT the secrets of the Orders and nobody will be able to penetrate to the deeper layers of the orders or courses as such who has not got anykind of link to the orders and anykind of guidance. Same goes for the VGW.
What the machines are concerned, they are absolutely workable and if you have studied the previous courses well and understood and integrated their main points, it is absolutely clear on how to use and even build these machines, who are both physical and/or mental.
In regards to being scientific - all that is presented works beyond any doubt. There are no mathematical equations to support this, but we are talking about a gnostic type of science. It is the transformative qualities and usability towards a gnostic transformation which are proven beyond doubt. And keep in mind, you are not supposed to copy everything that is said in the courses - you need to understand the principles and then construct your own magical universe - this is the treasure of the courses as such appliable for anyone. In the regards to the OTOA and LCN, they have many more qualities and usabilities - as of course there are many additional materials, guidance and initiations etc. The secrets are not in a book.

In case you are in the UK, you may want to come to the talk I am giving on this topic on the 11th of this month at Treadwells. I will touch on this topic as well. As I think it is very important for people to get a clear idea of how things are intended and being worked.

regards,

Tau M


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Dear Tau M

“…confusion…being VERY technical and abstract at times, presenting a system totally different to any of the usual orders you usually encounter, and thus also contradicting things one may have previously learned.”

What made me curious about both Courses and WGV was the difference. We use to be very open to absorb any system of thought. Each of them is as much attractive as much is different. Second phase is testing of such system in means of philosophical consistency as well as applicability in daily life.
From this perspective I found Lucky Hoodoo quite vital because of very straightforward approach in means of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (Maslow, 1954) but I found quite strong week point of this system later on. System helps to retain energies (that are usually wasted) or attract them from elsewhere (if they are missing due to some reason) but (due to correspondences) is not capable of generating them. Concrete example is formula for solution of financial needs described in the text of 1st chapter of VGW. Core of problem is difference between magnetic attraction of so to speak lunar type of magic and creation of cause of solar type of magic. (e.g. get money through heritage versus getting higher income through possession of higher knowledge or education)
I can’t seriously comment on other sections of book because I didn’t finished analysis of them.

I found the Course interesting as well. I really liked some ideas related to specific system of mental travel introduced in the first year Course. Presented system of correspondences was also interesting but unfortunately – as you are saying – without initiation into this system is hard to find entire value of it.
Problem occurred when I started to analyse whole thing more into deep. Any mathematical system or even system of logic should be built on some basic axioms and than theorems are built on this foundation. This is absolutely crucial because it gives you chance to stop for while and validate obtained results anytime. Above that any system of coding of information for purposes of transmission from point A to point B requires validation. In inter-human information exchange (e.g. conversation) it is achieved by adding additional information (more than is needed for pure transmission) that helps us to figure out if we understand each other. The same principle is used e.g. for some internet protocols.
Information in courses was fragmental – just comments on some topics barely covering necessary pure information and totally missing additional information necessary to validate. Definition of basic axioms was missing entirely. You are saying that this is because members of Order receive additional amount of information together with initiation. This is bringing light into the problem and seems to be solving it but the Course didn’t mention any form of initiation that should go together with it even can be understood that it is some kind of preliminary correspondence course of outer part of the temple and initiations follows after passing it. This is imho not completely consistent with what you say. May be I am missing the point.

“Michael Aquarius is a 'being' speaking through and related to M.B. and it makes sense when he claims he is the master of everything (related to the system) as the system and Universe of the courses is M.B.s magical Universe or rather M.A.s magical universe in which he is the supreme ruler.”

I copy on that but I still can’t get across some claims regarding gaining (or possessing) control over other spiritual groups (3rd year I think) and entire society (1st year I think). It seems to me bit in contradiction to your explanation. Being honest this is very idealistic kind of vision, which failed to be adapted many times during human history. It was during communist experiment in eastern block last time. Living example is Cuba (it is interesting to look at it from different angels).

Regarding magical machines of types described in the third year course I have no doubt that they are working well because reports about functionality of such machines can be found across many lineages of western magick as well as Hindu and Buddhist tantric lineages, American native lineages and last but not least African spiritual currents and its adaptations in Americas.

Unfortunately I can’t attend because I will be probably in continental Europe at that time.

Kind Regards

121


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

This is going to be a argumentative question.

From what Tau is relating in his posts , is that the magickal current he is aligned with is restrictive due to the "requirements" imposed by the particular current's teachers. If that is so, why is this thread relevant to Thelema and Crowley? If there is one thing that i have learned from the principles of Thelema is that it doesnt discriminate (the law is for all? Anyone?) in its principles.

How could a Thelemite continue to follow thelemic principles and attempt to align to a restictive/discriminative current that isnt thelemic in its outlook? How could a thelemite promote "the law is for all" when they are expected to discriminate on a magickal occult level?

Best regards.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Hye 121,

Bertiaux would surely like your mathematical approach 🙂

'What made me curious about both Courses and WGV was the difference. We use to be very open to absorb any system of thought. Each of them is as much attractive as much is different. Second phase is testing of such system in means of philosophical consistency as well as applicability in daily life.
From this perspective I found Lucky Hoodoo quite vital because of very straightforward approach in means of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (Maslow, 1954) but I found quite strong week point of this system later on. System helps to retain energies (that are usually wasted) or attract them from elsewhere (if they are missing due to some reason) but (due to correspondences) is not capable of generating them.'

In this case I have to disagree - but I see the point you make in regards to classical western systems. In our system the generator of energies is the 'pool' of spirits whose powers and energies are 'fed' into the system through special magical operations by appointed masters,.

'Concrete example is formula for solution of financial needs described in the text of 1st chapter of VGW. Core of problem is difference between magnetic attraction of so to speak lunar type of magic and creation of cause of solar type of magic. (e.g. get money through heritage versus getting higher income through possession of higher knowledge or education)'

I do not see a problem here as in our current this works wondefully. We are not concerned with 'western' classifications' of things. Plus there are so many extra ideas who need to be taken into consideration and as much as I'd love to go deeper into the matter, I simply lack the time to do this now.

'I found the Course interesting as well. I really liked some ideas related to specific system of mental travel introduced in the first year Course. Presented system of correspondences was also interesting but unfortunately – as you are saying – without initiation into this system is hard to find entire value of it.'

Well, there is lots of value to be found even without initiation proper. But this of course requires a LOT of previous knowledge and learning in esoteric topics and many other fields like philosophy. Then the Courses can be a treasure house. Kenneth Grant and a couple of others were very able to take inspiration there this way. Back in the days, we only accepted very experienced occultists as (correspondence)students of the monastery as the material is just too advanced and demanding for a beginner or neophyte.

'Problem occurred when I started to analyse whole thing more into deep. Any mathematical system or even system of logic should be built on some basic axioms and than theorems are built on this foundation. This is absolutely crucial because it gives you chance to stop for while and validate obtained results anytime. Above that any system of coding of information for purposes of transmission from point A to point B requires validation. In inter-human information exchange (e.g. conversation) it is achieved by adding additional information (more than is needed for pure transmission) that helps us to figure out if we understand each other. The same principle is used e.g. for some internet protocols.
Information in courses was fragmental – just comments on some topics barely covering necessary pure information and totally missing additional information necessary to validate. Definition of basic axioms was missing entirely. You are saying that this is because members of Order receive additional amount of information together with initiation. This is bringing light into the problem and seems to be solving it but the Course didn’t mention any form of initiation that should go together with it even can be understood that it is some kind of preliminary correspondence course of outer part of the temple and initiations follows after passing it. This is imho not completely consistent with what you say. May be I am missing the point.'

Well, to be honest, I find the monastery material to be totally coherent and find nothing missing in regards to logical steps. It may get a bit abstract at points, but I can always trace the coherence.
But I agree with you in regards to teh initiations providing a better framework and a much needed 'addition' if one is to enter the deeper layers of the Voudon Gnostic work.
One of the reasons why there are no mentionings of such initiations in the courses has a simple reason - large parts of the courses were not written for the OTOA at first but for another organization which does not exist anymore today. ONly later were they employed as a teaching vehicle for the correspondence students, the outer court of the orders. That sheds some light on this matter maybe.

'I copy on that but I still can’t get across some claims regarding gaining (or possessing) control over other spiritual groups (3rd year I think) and entire society (1st year I think). It seems to me bit in contradiction to your explanation. Being honest this is very idealistic kind of vision, which failed to be adapted many times during human history. It was during communist experiment in eastern block last time. Living example is Cuba (it is interesting to look at it from different angels).'

🙂 I disagree again, it is not about a political or social society, although this may be the result of the zotyhrian influence onece it has properly been transmitted. It is an absolutely logical gnostic claim. As a gnostic metasystem it can absorb and utilize any other system (and not in a chaos magical way). I have written a paper on that which one day I may post.

'Regarding magical machines of types described in the third year course I have no doubt that they are working well because reports about functionality of such machines can be found across many lineages of western magick as well as Hindu and Buddhist tantric lineages, American native lineages and last but not least African spiritual currents and its adaptations in Americas.'

good point, I agree.

My best wishes,

Tau M


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

'From what Tau is relating in his posts , is that the magickal current he is aligned with is restrictive due to the "requirements" imposed by the particular current's teachers.'

Where did you get that from? Interestingly, the voudon gnostic system is absolutely non-dogmatic. We allow no dogma, or all of them as you prefer. We have thelemites, gnostics, animists and a whole lot of other student-backgrounds in the orders.
And what requirements would a particular teacher impose in our system other than expecting a student to have a certain set of qualities needed to understand the system. Do not forget that we are not religious but only occult.

'If that is so, why is this thread relevant to Thelema and Crowley? If there is one thing that i have learned from the principles of Thelema is that it doesnt discriminate (the law is for all? Anyone?) in its principles.'

? can you please expand? I know for a fact that Thelema is a lot more restrictive than the voudon gnosis. In esoteric voudon we do not even have a holy book and we do not have a prophet 🙂

' How could a Thelemite continue to follow thelemic principles and attempt to align to a restictive/discriminative current that isnt thelemic in its outlook? How could a thelemite promote "the law is for all" when they are expected to discriminate on a magickal occult level?'

Where are we restrictive or discriminate? It seems rather that you are since you are saying that if one is not thelemic, one is not 'fit' to be followed. We don't care wether anyone is thelemic or not.

We are totally Gnostic in the way that we only care for the personal and individual enlightment and vision and do no limit ourselves to any type of dogma. We use all and no religion, philosophical, magical and esoteric system as we see fit and what we regard as inspiration. And certainly the 93 current has been of considerable inspiration at times as has mystic catholicism, martinism, theosophy etc.

Best regards,

Tau M


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Thanks for your reply Tau.

Ok , when i use the description "restrictive" i was focusing on the issue of praxis here.Now from the way you have explained it, even if you have the Gnostic Vodoun material , and you practice it, and wear the T Shirt (!) it is not enough. The gnosis connected to the GV current/knowledge/secrets will not manifest through the rituals in the books. ( Is this assertion wrong?Correct me if so.) And the only way to align with the current is to be initiated into the school(?)

Now if these assertions are correct, from my point of view using Thelemic criteria this would appear to me has restrictive. Using the maxim "The law is for all" it is quite possible for someone to not be with a Thelemic order and still achieve a Thelemic initiation by themself through hardwork ,determination and motivation. To my understanding this doesnt appear to be the case with the Gnostic Voudon current. How would a Thelemite be able to follow the principles of "Do What thou Wilt.." independently and submit themselves to the will of a spiritual teacher who isnt Thelemic in outlook?

Best Regards


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

🙂 now I understand better what you mean. First off, I do NOT have the mentioned T-Shirt and I want one! I deserve one!
Now to what you have stated. I think the crux here is that you apply thelema as a philosophy to achieve somekind of enlightened state, unattached to any (external)initiatory work or order. Do not forget that the OTOA and LCN consider themselves to be magical and occult orders and not literalist or religious churches. Even the catholic church says the law is for all those who accept the doctrine of the risen christ in the flesh etc.
The voudon gnostic acknowledges countless possible way to gnostic enlightment, may it be Dzogchen, Zen, Thelema etc. and the courses in fact may even provide this philosophical inspiration to a NON initiate(formally) to achieve this kind of gnostic self-realization. This may or may not happen. But this has little to do with the particular magical and occult work connected to the OTOA and LCN, same as Thelema is not directly related to the sexual magic of the OTOs.
I hope I am somehow understandable. One may achieve the same gnostic enlightment and realization which is a determination for any voudon gnostic through individual work or work with other 'groups', but the specific path of initiation, the access to the spirits and the tools we have to explore the realms and dimension of existence as well as the initiated aid for achieveing the transformative goals are only available for initiates into the cult of esoteric voudon.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Brief notice: the Treadwell's talk is now sold out.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Dear Tau M

Thank you for your answer.

My comments and questions follows.

“In our system the generator of energies is the 'pool' of spirits whose powers and energies are 'fed' into the system through special magical operations by appointed masters,.”

Here we come to point I definitely missed to understand during my study.

In my opinion the crown of the most magick currents effort comes with work that is based on very simple principles. These can be interpreted in terms of specific Yoga systems. In my opinion the aim is quite common even the ways of accomplishing can differ. If I compare two very opposite approaches such as shaktipat based Kundalini initiation plus related Yoga and sexual magick based approach I can see common elements used by both of the practices.
For instance I noted interesting results of perineum area massage (from inside through rectum) with results similar to Kundalini Yoga practice. I see another interesting coherence. Transmission of energy through specific will act in traditional lotus intercourse position and meditation based state of so to speak ‘unified will’ have common meta-attributes for me. What is also similar in my experience with both systems is that all ecstasy states of yoga as well as states of emotional excitement related to sexual stimulation are just products of hormonal dis-balances during internal-body chemistry changes and are completely useless. Imho the most powerful states involve instance-presence type of experience without any special side effects (With exception of experience of unity with ‘space’ shakti from which all abilities know to me directly come.). Why I am writing that? I want to put the following statements on the firm ground.

Imho overall energy of Magus comes from two sources. The first is personal Kundalini shakti that (after awaken) transforms mage in means of his structure and opens him to perception of second one – external ‘space‘ shakti. Unification with both of them brings various mental abilities as well as instant knowledge. If you look at this, the whole thing is quite straightforward. There is surely lot of confusion because two different of interpretation of Sun and Moon (common and universal) which can be quite misleading but in my opinion just transference of awareness is the case. The first common ones deals with right and left but for practical reasons are sometimes placed down and up. The second universal pair is imho related with medulla oblongata for moon and area of centre of chest for sun.

That leads me to the following question:

Why to use power plant system based on spirit vehicle that is feed from external sources?

From my point of view the most of spirit based practices (mostly utilizing specific abilities of various classes of beings capable controlling specific energies) aren’t evolutionary for practicing magician. He can mingle with essence of these spirits and achieve different powers but where is the benefit for him as human?

“We are not concerned with 'western' classifications' of things.”

Ok let look at whole thing from another point. If you consider ‘what is requested’ to be an empty manifestation of the great ocean of phenomena than you can obtain it through specific lunar magic. But if you know that, you probably can do it directly without help of any specific spirit.

“…That sheds some light on this matter maybe.”

Interesting.

“As a gnostic metasystem it can absorb and utilize any other system (and not in a chaos magical way). I have written a paper on that which one day I may post.”

With exception of other meta-systems 🙂 .

If I understand properly, whole meta-xxx thing is about finding another layer of illusion that controls the apparent one (even this is occult one) and so forth. This is some kind of ‘seeking for universal formula’ approach represented by ‘theory of everything research’ on physical side. Unfortunately you can pierce veil using three types of meta-methods or in three orthogonal directions. You can do it through development of logic, expansion of dream practice or through advancement of dreamless sleep state’s related instant knowledge. Not speaking about grace of immediate revelation that is also possible – representing the fourth orthogonal direction. Just this point of view shows that you can build various meta-magic systems based on mentioned principles or their combinations and use them as vehicles that will transport you directly to state of the true accomplishment.

Kind Regards

121


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 1983
Topic starter  

This thread has become so much more than I could have ever imagined when I asked my initial question: what's up with this Michael Bertiaux guy??? LOL!

Hawthornrussell and 121 have both raised some very important questions with regards to the Orders carrying and working the Magick which Bertiaux has been representative of, questions which I don't think are at all idle or irrelevant.

Since my first post here, I have given much time and attention to Bertiaux's work and now find it absolutely invaluable to my own Path.

Regarding Bertiaux's relevance to Thelema, it should be noted that his work is referenced in almost all of Kenneth Grant's Typhonian Trilogies. The first Chapter in the forthcoming reprint of Outside The Circles of Time makes reference to the Bertiaux based ideas of the Monstrous Soul, which has been especially "Gate-Cracking" for myself with specific application to the Thelemic God-Forms of AL. This got touched upon briefly in the Changing View of War thread where the AL based combat and martial content was expressed in several places as part of a very deep and powerful Grimoire of Initiation vs. a series of shallow admonitions to engage in primate aggression. It is worth mentioning an Official Statement Concerning OTO which appeared in Starfire Vol II No. 2 in which it is stated that the Great Work of Magick is "based on formulae contained in the Book Of The Law and...in no wise involves aggressive action on the part of magicians using them." There is such a deep level of Mysticism contained within the Magicks of both Grant and Bertiaux and which can be overlooked if one simply glosses over the exotic allusions in either author's material.

Crowley, Aiwass, LAM, Amalantrah etc are all woven into the "Meta-System" which Bertiaux represents, fully integrating and working harmoniously with the 93 Current whilst embodying a very unique and ancient energy wave whose nature has been evolutionary from time immemorial. For myself, part of the building and metamorph of the "Monstrous Soul" has included an embrace of Gnostic-Voudon as concurrent with Typhonian Thelema. A friend remarked to me that he thought Bertiaux's linking of Voodoo and Gnosis was quite "novel." I find that everyone must become an extraordinarily novel creature by virtue of the energy fusions which take place in Magickal and Mystical Development. The Alchemist achieves unions between diverse materials which are typically held in opposition to one another. Christians docket other religions and even other Christian sects. I see some Thelemites doing the same thing. We can spout off all kinds of high and mighty words about the fundemental unity of things but the "Monstrous Soul" truly realizes this unity in its own sphere. It doesn't use the head to write an essay on comparitive Magicks-it becomes multi-magicks.

I can rather see the Frowning Father, disapproving of his Son's choice of Lover. "She's not our kind of person, son. You can't be with her." "Too late. I already have." And Love is happening. creating new universes.

With regard to 121's question pertaining to the building of meta-systems, I have to agree. The formulae is liberating and the only limits are those with which it is working to evolve. The objection I hear is that one must be initiated to fully unlock the contents of the material. I don't read this as implying that unless you join this special club, you can't get the full influx of power, otherwise Initiation becomes a thing which expresses in terms of outward gesture rather than inward reality. But the outward gesture can be utilized to make manifest the inward reality. Hence, the neo-Masonic rites of the Caliphate OTO have resulted in both fly-by-nights and people who have truly taken an impress upon their Souls. Never the less, the "switch" must be flipped if there is to be

vehicles that will transport you directly to state of the true accomplishment.

and Bertiaux's work has been created and crafted as such a machine. I will add that it is a very effective machine and one which is fashioned to realize both Will and Agape on the most mundane of levels and the Trans-personal, Trans-Cosmic.

Thelemic New Year Wish: Fulgur publishing Cosmic Meditation!

(Well, that and Starfire publishing Outside The Circles of Time! 😀 )

93-!

Kyle


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
 

Dear Kyle

I am quite far away of saying if it is right to make Love or not :-).

First of all, because there is no sense of doing it. Love is the Power itself and has its own Rules. So-different from people, who just talk and talk, always trapped in nets of words and meanings. Gods are nothing more that personalized Love. And when I say Love I mean Love and not love. :-)))
Secondly, I am not opposing such evolution. I am just trying to say that looking behind the veil of interpretation, you can find anything you was originally looking for and even more than that. This can be achieved by several ways and – of course – it is really nice to find out that other people came somehow to the similar experience. However, nobody exclusively owns highest knowledge in my opinion. In fact – I don’t believe in highest knowledge – even gods are on learning curve weaving nets of perception.

How many initiated people really achieve some realization? Initiation is just entry ticket to some mandala represented by teachings and beings that are transmiting it … but initiation doesn’t guarantee any achievement at all. On the contrary anybody can achieve state of true gnosis through revelation from various god-forms any-time and nobody can restrict him from that. Form isn’t important, important is content and may be – even content isn’t important. You will loose your form sooner or later anyway. During your life or on its end 🙂 and what will happen with remaining content is also questionable.

In other words – you can see your monstrous aspects in ordinary mirror just by looking at yourself. The patterns involved in the interpretation process are hiding it before you. The value of books that you are mentioning is in the message “you may be overlooking something” and imho that is all you can get from.

It is may be bold to say that in this forum but I think that our path is also some veil of self-delusion. I am in state of gnosis or I am not. If I am, I can find useful means to deal with present situation instantly. If I am not I should look for some kind of knowledge to survive. State of gnosis is very creative in means of transformation of one state to another, naturally connecting understanding with realisation – where understanding is reflection and realisation action and your immediate identity is fruit of reflection and action making Love.

From this perspective is probably wiser to make Love than adore it.

To experience Love, differentiate Love from love and remain in Love as much as possible – rests comes without any effort or further assistance. That is whole formula in my opinion.

My best wishes & oceans of fun during making Love

11^2


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kidneyhawk
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Noxnoctis-

93

I have to agree whole-heartedly with your statement that

nobody exclusively owns highest knowledge in my opinion. In fact – I don’t believe in highest knowledge – even gods are on learning curve weaving nets of perception.

yet for Love's Sake, we are compelled to keep pushing forward and moving along the spiral outwards and inwards.

Regarding "Initiation," it's another one of those occult buzz-words which mean different things to different people. For some, it's a ceremony, a certificate, an inner breakthrough...I would define the term as encompassing both "realization" and "achievement" and other factors which introduce, fuse and download into consciousness energies which transform and elevate it. This may, in fact, happen in conjunction with outward actions and structures, with the bestowal of a sacrament, during a Degree Initiation or in the depths of sleep...part of chasing the Outward Spiral and Riding the Current entails the unique ways we choose to open ourselves to the ever-rolling Initiatory Process. But its reality is something which none can gauge save ourselves.

When you write

I am in state of gnosis or I am not

I consider the prospect that one may be in both "places" at once. Hence, there is a Holy Guardian Angel who is the Fulness of Will and we aspire to that acknowledged Fulness of Will, even if we feel ourselves to be seperate from it. It's manifestation to and through and in us then is a fusion of Light and Darkness-a "Love" if you will, which is potential in every given piece of existence.

It's a very interesting human phenomena, I think, that we have generated and grown methods and techniques meant to willfully and consciously assist this process...which leads back to earlier words on the role a Current Linkage plays in progressing to a particular point and how a given Order may embody and fascillitate such a Link. Obviously, Michael Bertiaux represents a particular method and means for our self-impelled progression.

May I ask how you feel the thoughts you expressed above (which are certainly mystical and "Gnostic") relate to your interaction with his work?

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Dear Kyle

Thoughts I presented are partly supporting ideas coming with MB’s works I read and partially opposing to them.

I don’t see content of MB’s and KG’s books as next logical evolutionary step in magickal development. In my opinion many of those teachings relate to older Lunar cults, where lunar doesn’t mean only to be attached to moon itself but can be seen as way of goddess instead of way of gods. (I am referring to universal Sun and Moon not to common ones here.)
In opposite to Lunar ones you have Solar cults that have different way of achievement with different sets of challenges. It is not necessary to adopt both ways to succeed.

Attraction of Lunar magnetic powers deludes many people easily and gets them confused.*

I am pointing out that gnosis means to be present and not to be deluded. When I say Love, I am referring to natural state of embraced (or hatched – you can say) beings. Gods becomes to be Gods through participation on creation through Love in each moment of their presence. Their relation to universe of creation is entirely sexual.

I am not opposing that we are of Gods’ nature and at the same time quite unaware of it. On the other hand, if I say that you can come across that state just by your effort, I will be lying. /logical gap – something wasn’t said right here/ What you name by communication with your HGA is just natural process of embracing (or hatching – you can say), during which your self-awareness is elevated to understanding of void nature of all phenomena including your one's own existence. Here comes the point about worthlessness of adoration of Love (= natural state of HGA). You can’t keep worshiping Deity and become it at the same time. You should make Love = you should participate. There isn’t any other way than this way of total sacrifice. How sad. 🙂 Because of that Love is different form love.

*It is Her duty to keep us in ecstasy of ignorance, differentiating good and bad. You will barely make Her speak True without making Love. And what is gnosis? To make Her speak True! Hail Saint Whore!

Cheers,

121


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kidneyhawk
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121-

In my opinion many of those teachings relate to older Lunar cults

Well, you know...Pink is the New Black.

Or is it Black is the New Pink?

I can't remember! But with regards to any reference to

MB’s and KG’s books as next logical evolutionary step in magickal development

I don't know that either author/magician would necessarily propose this, esp. Bertiaux, as Gnostic-Voudon develops its very specialized and progressive occult work from quite antiquated origins. The "next step," if you will is US, based on the work as a foundation or, if you will, a springboard. Grant, in his discussion of the Aeon of Maat, "succeeding" Horus, obliterates linear notions of A to B to C in "Aeonics" and opens the phenomena up to dazzling simultaneities. Again, how those forces manifest as the "next step" is upon our own Path and within US as Magicians.

I do agree that a big part of the Work is the ability to understand that

You can’t keep worshiping Deity and become it at the same time. You should make Love = you should participate

My allusions to the "Monstrous Soul" had specific reference in Grant's Outside the Circles of Time and, in "hatching" such an incubation, one is quite testifying in ACTION (or "making Love") to the participation in something which is Alive and Moving, rather than categorized (and thus, hampered) in linguistic dockets.

As Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law, how one moves within the expanse of Currents represented through the works of MB, KG or anyone else (including Oneself!), is to be determined by the Go-Stream of the Magician. After all, what we believe, feel, perceive, accept, reject etc is all contained with the phenomena of Mind...each and every Star-Self shall find certain encounters therein to be of particularly superior value in accomodating their Will-Course.

For myself, both KG and MB are hugely valuable in approaching the Nagual, very uniquely progressive even when reaching backwards towards forgotten antiquities of Magick, History, Myth and Lore. There is a point where the past and future are simultaneously evoked and becoming alive in the present, they function as any living thing-growing, moving and forming endless combinations in the ceaseless acts of "Love."

And what is gnosis? To make Her speak True!

Does Sophia speak any other way? 🙂 I'd say we are graced when her lips part.

Cheers to you, also (esp. as I'm drinking from my new Crowley-Coffee Invocation Cup from Thiebes and Co.!)

😀

93!

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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"noxnoctis" wrote:
In my opinion many of those teachings relate to older Lunar cults, where lunar doesn’t mean only to be attached to moon itself but can be seen as way of goddess instead of way of gods. (I am referring to universal Sun and Moon not to common ones here.)
In opposite to Lunar ones you have Solar cults that have different way of achievement with different sets of challenges. It is not necessary to adopt both ways to succeed.

Attraction of Lunar magnetic powers deludes many people easily and gets them confused.*

I am pointing out that gnosis means to be present and not to be deluded. When I say Love, I am referring to natural state of embraced (or hatched – you can say) beings. Gods becomes to be Gods through participation on creation through Love in each moment of their presence. Their relation to universe of creation is entirely sexual.
121

Woe, woe, woe! and woe again!

I think you are misinterpreting the mysteries which Kenneth Grant is revealing... The solar and lunar cults which Grant infers to the initiate, are a 'metaphysic' in themselves?!, they describe the 'magickal formula' of the Great Secret....these terms are not to be taken literary!...they are metaphors for something much deeper...something much more sublime.

They are a qabalah, and they have been garmented (solar/lunar cults) in mythological prose/personification. Thus, these lunar/solar currents refer to the primal elements of 'starfire' which, on a very low plane is witnessed by the adept as 'starfire' or sensual kundalini. The solar/lunar cults refer to the subtle reflection of the AIN (61/void/Daath), which undergoes 'reflexive' emanation to manifest the 'Word', into 'Flesh'. These terms, are a metaphysic to describe the finer elements of magickal practice.

I mean.....we are talking magick are we not?.... the manifestation of the magickal will/moonchild via magickal formula through the planes?

Best Wishes

Charles 😯

P.S. and that moonchild...could very well be a channeling of a praeternatural intelligence or a zothyrian gnosis 😯


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 Anonymous
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Dear Charles

1)You write:
“The solar and lunar cults which Grant infers”

Here can be source of misunderstanding as I defined what I refer by these terms in my previous posts into this discussion. Those terms should be understood in the way I defined them.

2)I can’t find the way how to read the following sentence:
“Thus, these lunar/solar currents refer to the primal elements of 'starfire' which, on a very low plane is witnessed by the adept as 'starfire' or sensual kundalini.”

Let me comment on it:

a) I don’t know what is the ‘starfire’. Could you write me corresponding term in Sanskrit, please?

b) I don’t understand term ‘sensual kundalini’. I did simple exercise with google ("sensual kundalini") and I found some New Age stuff???
Do you mean that some types of massage 🙂 can create effect of feeling waves of heat in area of spine? You probably should not be an Adept to reach this result. Is there Sanskrit term for that?
That isn’t necessarily related with Kundalini in my opinion because it can be some kind of pranic circulation effect.

Could you precisely specify what do you mean with quoted sentence, please?

It will probably help me to understand corner-stone of your argumentation.

Thank you in advance

121


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 Anonymous
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Kyle

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
121-
Does Sophia speak any other way? 🙂 I'd say we are graced when her lips part.

In my opinion - what is seen depends on who is looking. Not everybody sees Sophia :-).

Heartily

121


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kidneyhawk
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Not everybody sees Sophia

Right. But-from a bit of the Gnostic Standpoint-there is a Fire within us that can and does wake up and stir and seek Sophia. And to find her is not to "have" her. Just as you stated above, the idea of some lock, stock and barrell ultra-enlightenment floating around to be "gotten" is a Limited Notion. Hence, Sophia is hidden behind an infinitude of veils which we move through, ever yearning for and seeking "Further Light!" An eternity of veils, an eternity of unveilings-which sounds very much like Love.

When taking a course in comparitive theology in college, we touched on Gnosticism. The professor, a Baptist, was a bit dismissive but even back then (as a "Baptist" myself) I suddenly sat up a little straighter and was very intrigued by this current. When addressing the "Fall" and why the Fullness of Godhead would splinter into the Sparks, he said this was one of the things the Gnostics failed to offer an explanation for and therefore their system was bunk. Why would Perfection fall into "Imperfection?"

Of course, there wasn't any "Gnostic Representation" in the class to offer any feedback and we moved onto the next theological approach. But this was shortly before I was about to discover Aleister Crowley and get very confused (but further intrigued! LOL!) by Magick In Theory and Practice.

Liber AL offers an "unveiling" as to the "answer" which, also, comes under that category of Love with the capital "L."

Not that the Gnostics didn't get there first-! 😆

Still, the Spark within AC which culminated in AL was definitely a response to the Call of Sophia and swims through the Veilings after its own fashion.

Someone talked about how the present day Gnostics don't like "Fornicating AC," which made me wrinkle an eyebrow.

???

AC, the author of the Gnostic Mass-!

I see Thelema and Gnosticism as interchangable words until one wishes to codify them into systems and expectations. But Liber AL (dubious origins or no) I regard as a HIGHLY Gnostic text.

Still, it needs to be read aloud (and silently) by the Mouth of Sophia-! 😉

93!

Kyle


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kidneyhawk
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the manifestation of the magickal will/moonchild

and that moonchild...could very well be a channeling of a praeternatural intelligence or a zothyrian gnosis

LOL-!

I think it could well be!

And if "Moonchild" has any connection to the "Lunar Focus" via ancient cults in Grant (which, I agree, take on much more than a historic role in the Grimoires of the Trilogies!), it should also be noted that the Moon receives the Impress of the Sun. As Sothis is the Sun Behind the Sun, so is Andromeda the Moon behind the Moon. Solar and Lunar Currents meet in the Human Bio-Machine-and Andromeda/Sirius fuse in the Un-time/Anti-Space of the LAM Guru-Gateway, likewise masked and expressed through that machine.

As 121 stated:

In opposite to Lunar ones you have Solar cults that have different way of achievement with different sets of challenges. It is not necessary to adopt both ways to succeed.

I would say this is because if one is willing and able to push the envelope further and further, "Everything that rises must converge." Whether Lover or Beloved, the two mutually attract and melt away into the One. And just as Sol/Luna "masks" Sothis/Andromeda, so do Sothis/Andromeda mask further Suns and Moons.

I don't know that 121 and Charles are really at odds in what is being expressed. With differing language, I think I hear both of you saying, after a fashion, 93.

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Hello everyone,

Ill give this another shot...

What I mean, is that in respect to solar/luna cults, like Kyle (a right rotter!) was saying in his interesting thread upstairs, they are but 'veils'. In the sense that mythologia or if you want, specific solar and lunar cults/practice represent outwardly an occult dynamic of an underlying human experience. These cults, or magickal currents/practices, are but veils, which outwardly, suggest something, which is organically existing within the human experience of the adept. Meaning, that their outward representation symbolises the 'very nature and movements of magickal force within the occult anatomy' i.e. the tides or rhythms.

So, in this respect, the use of abstract terms used by esotericists to describe the essential components or elemental features of magickal energies i.e. 'starfire', 'kundalini', 'astral light' (all being merging synonymous terms) are in themselves components of magickal force. They are terms or platforms (magickal engines), which are used to describe the nature and characteristic or personality of the magickal forces. They are magnetic, and sexual, and hence, sensual (push and pull), and are a dual monism (Solar, Lunar). So, the terms, Solar and Lunar, refer to subtle occult dynamics, and these elemental dynamics become officiated as a 'cultus'. So, a 'cultus', is an outward expression of the underlying primordial forces which animate the adepts subtle centres...which, in turn, are 'garmented' or 'veiled' into all kinds of magickal expressions or workings i.e. Solar and Lunar cults and mythologia.

One must not mistake or fall under the illusion of the stage or prop of ritual, or magickal current, or a particular ritual practice or cultus (solar/lunar) as being a finality...for these currents or cults have developed from an understanding of the subtle occult forces from which they are composed! 😯

A magickal current evolves from primordial and foundational elements e.g. one must not mistake the newtonian table, for the quanta of forces which vibrate within the atoms of its structure.

Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
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Dear Charles

Sorry for belated answer. I am pretty occupied these times. Anyway, it gave me opportunity to find suitable answer to your contribution into this forum.

I think that we are bit turning aside from previous topic. But, in principle, not so much because all Typhonian (and other related) currents are so attractive because they are addressing aspects of the art that are not emphasised by main currents for various reasons (usually compliance with commonly agreed unspoken rules of the society).

Attraction comes from feeling of incompleteness and unconscious drives to explore abandon nature of the self.

Having time to reflect what I have written here I came to conclusion that the point wasn’t clearly stated and so it can’t be understand properly.

Will start from distant corner and will come to the point of the crossroads on the end.

(Following short essay doesn’t intend to represent any particular current or tradition. Its content was gathered and confirmed through practical work. Thanks for inspiration to those, who deserve it.)

1) State of gnosis is purely sexual state.
2) This sex is the sex of Gods. As some sage told me (and I can confirm it now) our higher functions of human are lower functions of Gods and vice versa.
3) It means that state of Gods is purely sexual. Not in physical means primarily but in quite abstract way.
4) This state is beyond function of our ordinary intellectual mind.
5) It is happening in space of creative thoughts (please do not confuse with astral), where pure thought-forms (or imaginations as some would probably say) are rising up and setting down from / into living emptiness.
6) There isn’t apparent source of this process. All Sakti(s) /Shakti(s)/ (form or forms) seem to be actualisation(s) of Siva /Shiva/ (invisible omnipotent potential).
7) This is experienced as sexual ecstasy even it has no physical implication. Sexual act happens far behind the mind (not ‘in mind’ as some people tends to say).
8) It is depicted as sexual intercourse between Siva and Sakti in iconography.
9) This is probably the most potential magical state, The Light Key of The Hierophant.
10) It is not hard to experience but it can be hard to recognise it and remain in.
11) It is usually attained through Kundalini practices.
12) When Kundalini Shakti (often referred as hidden fire in alchemy) pierces every chakram /chkram/ on its ascendant journey and enters complex of chakram(s) related to human head, Sahasrara chakram opens up.
13) This is experienced like opening hidden gateway or dissolving some veil.
14) From this state another love (but not different of the first one in its essence) comes.
15) This love is sexual intercourse with various dimensions of our complex universes. It is purely sexual because you are completely naked as being and you are sharing your whole self with these dimensions.
16) Apart of the described above, you will (effortlessly) find the true nature of so-called ‘back side of the tree’ that is the dark (or hidden) source of all transformations (This is one purpose of calling alchemy as ‘the black art’ /soot is other one:-)/ because without different levels of putrefaction stone isn’t born.) sooner or later. It is the Dark Key of The Hierophant.

Having both Keys in your hand (metaphor), you are staying on the great universal crossroads guarded by Legba and Kalfou. All other Arcana Minor are accessible to you (even you aren’t aware of that at the present time) and is only matter of time to reveal them spontaneously.

In my opinion is time to speak openly and reveal the core gnosis (interpretation of state of gnosis into language of human – like this short essay does) in order to help others understand what gnosis is and which ways lead to it. Everybody has an opportunity to find out the path when the destination is understood. There are (and will be in future, of course) shortcuts that are kept in secret because of its dangerous nature – what is medicine to somebody can be pure poison for others. But, existence of these shortcuts shouldn’t be reason of obscuring bright light of the Gnosis by unnecessarily complicated (and misleading) words and sentences. As we have the ‘Year of the Fruit Bat’, we should throw away medieval manners. LOL

11^2

P.S.: I hope that is apparent that the last paragraph directly relates to the Typhonian Currents discussed here.


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kidneyhawk
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Noxnoctis-

I quite enjoyed reading your post (even if it was directed to Charles 🙂 )!

I think we find the Typhonian Work relating directly to the "Zothyrian" through the "bridge" of Kenneth Grant's writings esp. as Michael Bertiaux takes his place as one of the oft cited figures in the unfoldment of the Trilogies. Your essay reads rather like a synopsis for a work which is at least concurrent with this. I can only agree wholeheartedly with many of the points you make. May I ask, then, how you see this synopsis/essay in light of Bertiaux's work and words? I think you've clarified many points wonderfully but earlier on it seemed as if you felt there was some conflict between this approach to the Gnosis and that of Bertiaux. To my own perception, Bertiaux is one living example of carrying said Path into increasingly new territory, in both exploration and expression.

As a side note, it is also worth noting that Kenneth Grant rather stands between the "Zothyria" of Bertiaux and the "Thelema" of Crowley. Bertiaux certainly needs to be read in his own context but for those interested in Voudon-Gnosis as a sub-category of Thelemic Culture (and hence, of relevance to Lashtal), a huge link is provided in the Typhonian Trilogies.

I would say Grant also has done the same thing regarding Austin Spare, who is equally celebrated on this site.

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Dear Kyle

I highly value both streams represented by works of KG and MB because of its difference.

On the other hand, I am asking myself:

• Is possible to make these fields more transparent?
• Why conveyed message is not as clear as one of AC left us?

Few days ago I opened Book 4 and I felt breath of scientific scepticism, irony and brilliant sense of humour – e.g.:

For example, FRATER
“O. M. once gave a clairvoyant a waistcoat to psychometrize. He made 56 statements about the owner of the waistcoat; of these 4 were notably right; 17, though correct, were of that class of statement which is true of almost everybody. The remainder were wrong. It was concluded from this that he showed no evidence of any special power. In fact, his bodily eyes, — if he could discern Tailoring — would have served him better, for he thought the owner of the vest was a corn-chandler, instead of an earl, as he is.”

That is my cup of tea – even I am practicing different Yoga(s) than the one suggested by the book. I think that we should stick with this approach when exploring also areas that were not known to AC because of many reasons.

Scientific work has its own rules that are very well defined and would be wasting of time not to adhere to it. I would heartily recommend to anybody, who has ambition to write book about magick, to open good text book of physics or mathematic studies and look how it is written (clear definition of all terms used in text, verifiable examples, well kept references, …). This would be real step forward in evolution of Magick science on this planet. LOL

That is my opinion in brief.

Kind Regards

121


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 Anonymous
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"noxnoctis" wrote:
Scientific work has its own rules that are very well defined and would be wasting of time not to adhere to it. I would heartily recommend to anybody, who has ambition to write book about magick, to open good text book of physics or mathematic studies and look how it is written (clear definition of all terms used in text, verifiable examples, well kept references, …). This would be real step forward in evolution of Magick science on this planet. LOL

It's unlikely Crowley's 'methods of science' were ever such... and I might observe that for a message which was so clear, it seems to have had little impact in revealing more of the human condition compared to say, Jung, or Freud?


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 Anonymous
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🙂 that was a strike Monsieur Bazelek. Plus I can wholeheartedly say that one of the reasons MB did not leave us such a *clear* message as Crowley may be that what MB presents is is many and most ways a depths analysis of occult matters while Crowley barely scratched the surface. Plus Bertiaux never cared to present a religious doctrine. ON the other hand, to me MBs stuff becomes very clear if one puts a bit of coherent work in it. But in MBs case I would surely say that his work is not for ALL and so he did not make it always easy. Crowley attempted to make it easy for all so that's what you got.


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 Anonymous
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Dear Noxnoctis, apparently I could recommend you a book or two on the philosophy of mathematics or physics. Actually the most basic axioms of these sciences that are supposed to make sharp distinctions between the so called light and darkness, or order and chaos, or scientific possibility and the unknown, are the most shaky reality of all and in constant movement. From them on, maths are of course clear, for those who follow the hypothesis set by others. I've had many extremely interesting talks on this topic with a person who happens to be one of the pioneers in certain modern concepts behind maths and who right now is probably on some conference in Tokyo or wherever ;).

Getting back to MB, metamathematics form one of extremely vital points of his science. He recommends his students to study the field and to meditate and contemplate various axioms of the field, expressing a standpoint that metamathematics are a tool of a modern magician.

Actually his body of work forms a perfectly profound philosophical system of which every part is logically tied to the rest. I personally find his work at total fronteers of magical research + organizing sciences and metaphysics in a way absolute ontologists like Hoene-Wronski dreamt of. You can find traces of this thought even in small works like the 'Course in Cosmic Meditation' with its use of the theory of sets, it you are attentive.

What is for sure, these courses and fields are not for everyone and surely not for a sunday magician, as they form a science in themselves, with prerequisites like profound knowledge of ontology, including especially greek and german schools, orientation in modern metamathematics and mathematics etc. etc. Without these abilities, the courses will appear as 'unintelligible' :).

Apart from diving deeply in the most elemental fields of magic, this work is a diamond for a Thinker.

And now compare it to AC's greatest discovery in mathematics, namely that -1+1=0..... ke ke ke ke

All the best
Fr. SA+


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 Anonymous
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Frater SvarAbala

your thread was very very interesting ...and strangely odd 😯

My gosh!? does the 'word' get around on the grape vine....or are there some serious tangential tantras occuring 😯

Over the weekend, myself and a fellow brother of the Mahatmas, went on pub crawl circuit through the alley ways of ye olde london secret meeting places for the O.T.O. ...amongst the flow of drinks and the strange lovecraftian pictures upon the walls...we were discussing the role of quantumchromodynamics, plancks constant and the lattice of space-time, probabilities and general science/mathematics of particle physics (amongst other things - like the astral light and working upon the planes), and their relation to the fundamentals of the components which lie at the root of colour (kalas) to the Great Work.

I mean, with Mick Staley on the case too?!, mentioning the laws of thermodynamics and Maxwells law of electro-magnetism on an other thread...surely..I must be bugged!...or my fellow Mahatma has been spreading the doctrine! or their are tangential affectations taking place...through obscure angles... infiltrating the pylons of the mauve zone and penetrating the capsule of the lamanaut? Either way...it all is very bizarre.

Have we met Frater SvarAbala?...if so..reveal yourself...

Otherwise...back to the study of the precipitation of 'The Mahatma Letters' 😯

Best Wishes

Charles


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kidneyhawk
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I must be bugged

In an Insectival Sense, Methinks!

You know, they don't "pub crawl" in the US. They "bar hop." And we have these horrible things called "Sports Bars" which are just BEGGING for some

tangential affectations

I had to hole up on Superbowl Sunday with Survival Stout and fortunately was visited by a friend who was willing to talk about Grant Morrison, growing Larvae (spoken with a Scottish Accent) and Esoteric Christianity.

I'm sure you've met FS before. He is a frequent visitor to

the pylons

and the direction you've given this thread, Dear Charles, gives me hope that Lashtalians are not only considerative of "Thelema Beyond Crowley" but The Invisibles are still persuant of "Thelema Beyond The Mauve Zone."

Looking back over this thread I am laughing quite a bit as I began it with next to NO information, save that in Cults of the Shadow and Kelly's awful site, asking "WHAT is UP with this Michael Bertiaux Guy???" The thread still runs its course through the Maze and I've come to the conclusion that MB is leaps and bounds ahead of the

lamanaut

in training who will dare to follow. A surface read of Bertiaux makes the "sci-fi" of Kenneth Grant seem almost prosaic. Having read very deeply and been affected with equal depth by these works, I am almost inclined to write that the Necroid-Voodtronic-Time Travel-Hoodoo-Computer-Invasion talk is a colorful BLIND and metaphoric capsule for the Hidden Wisdom. But that wouldn't be fair or correct. All the "new" hyper-science of modernity is to the "future" as the Newtonian is to the "present." This is not to say that one should read Bertiaux as some sort of Literalist from the Future. He is BEYOND Literalism altogether. And going into that Realm, there is, undoubtedly, a Great Gnosis to be Found.

I think Bazelek's words regarding Crowley vs. Jung would make for an interesting Occult Celebrity Deathmatch. Esp. in light of a recent thread challenging the role of psychology in relationship to Thelema. Whose pipe will give smoky manifestation to the form which will offer the greatest GNOSIS and INSIGHT into what we are and may yet become as humans?

LOL! This is a match which only ends when one sees through the puffing smoke that both Crowley and Jung only reveal what we ourselves are revealing within and from "Beyond." The Odinnic "Myself to Myself."

Or the Bazelekian: "This is not a Pipe." I think AC and CJ might agree on this point, even they draw deeply.

Just as SvarAbala spoke above regarding "metamathematics" in Bertiaux so is there also a "meta-psychology" which I see as KEY (ke ke ke ke) to accessing the Non-Space in which the metamathematics reveals its super-logic. Just as Jung went "Beyond Freud," so do I see MB going "Beyond Jung" in the Map-matism of Cosmic Consciousness.

I would only add to TM's words that I see what MB has channeled, created and offered to the human race as being QUITE open to "ALL" in the Eckhartian sense of the Readiness of God. I think the Doors of the Sanctuary are only closed WITHIN us. But to get to the Portal-and to get THROUGH it-requires an "uneasy" Path which takes us down through levels of the Psyche, mapped only in PART.

As Kenneth Grant wrote:

"He must pass through the Deserts of Set and emerge in the clear light of the Aeon of Maat but without guidance from the supernal forces that have hitherto monitored the evolution of his consciousness."

It's rather like an explorer who arrives at the Mysterious Island and has to discard map and plane, setting out on foot and had best be ready for what comes next.

Michael Bertiaux has written out many maps of great import to such travel. But ultimately, its the SKILL of the Magician which is evoked to handle the territory. Crowley was one of the most profound writers on Magick ever and his work exploded on the scene with rocket-bursts and Ganeesha's Head mounted on the front. But I don't see him as being a Voltigeur. Spare on the other hand WAS and this is perhaps why he left the AA, aside from any "personal" issues with the Beast.

LOL.

it all is very bizarre

But its the Adventure. Or as Joseph Campbell would have described it:

"The Hero's Journey."

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Hey Kyle 😆

yep...I reckon you are right. We met at the pylons...exchanged the signs and journeyed across the plains...

The meeting place of the chela passes the 'event horizon' of mundane consciousness. This occurs via the extreme bending which takes place within the astral light....triggered from those off-beat rhythms of the bultu drum...catapulting the chela upright, onto their feet at the pylons of the 'singularity'.... The Meeting Place - which is awash with kalas! 😯 ...that tinge the astral light with strange radiations... bathing the adept in omniprescient and paramparic wonder, which are later precipitated and filtered through the lens of the adept. Meaning, through the planes! 👿 🙄 as an oracular gnosis...in word and gesture! 😯

Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
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Dear Magispiegel,

No, I have not met you, although indeed I visited London in last 2 weeks :-).

Kyle, your descriptions sound at least like Grant Morrisson's nightmare! I agree in some things you say, although I also think we must be extremely careful when dropping together meanings from Bertiaux, Grant and Crowley. These thoughts and traditions are very different and only partly intersect and while New Age showed it is completely possible to make one of all, it showed also that a danger of such equation is to get no sense at all and to disintegrate meanings.

Love
B


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 Anonymous
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Hello SvarAbala,

Interesting post. 🙂

although I also think we must be extremely careful when dropping together meanings from Bertiaux, Grant and Crowley.

The sudden shifts between perspectives in the above mentioned authors seem to me like the sharply angled strands on the web of OkBISh which are traced by the sudden shifts of the Voltigeurs. (see Kyles above post). It's true from what might be considered an anthropological stand point that the seperate traditions utilized by Bertiaux, Grant and Crowley have both similarities and differences but it's seems that the partial intersection can be made whole within the mind of the magician who "unites all" in the alchemy of their exploration. I think all 3 authors have done this themselves to create intersections where meaning may come through rather than disintegrate. True one should always study each magician in their own context but I think the goal is to get beyond a scholarly knowledge and into a personal intergration by which one may beable to develop their own magickal method, a gnosis if you will. At least this is something I'm always researching.

Personally I believe much of how methods of study will effect a magician will depend on their personality, their ability to seperate information and bring them together. Your "warning" is very true and should be considered but I dont believe it applies to all, not that you're suggesting this or anything. I just wanted to present another side. 🙂

Agape!
Kym


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Sorry, I don't want to distract from what has become a fascinating thread, but...

"kidneyhawk" wrote:
I think Bazelek's words regarding Crowley vs. Jung would make for an interesting Occult Celebrity Deathmatch.

You're probably already aware of this superb article?

http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/Downloads-req-viewdownloaddetails-lid-15.phtml

Paul

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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 Anonymous
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Dear Kym!

"adonia444" wrote:
Hello SvarAbala,
the seperate traditions utilized by Bertiaux, Grant and Crowley have both similarities and differences but it's seems that the partial intersection can be made whole within the mind of the magician who "unites all" in the alchemy of their exploration. I think all 3 authors have done this themselves to create intersections where meaning may come through rather than disintegrate. True one should always study each magician in their own context but I think the goal is to get beyond a scholarly knowledge and into a personal intergration by which one may beable to develop their own magickal method, a gnosis if you will. At least this is something I'm always researching.
Agape!
Kym

Yes, I agree. A magician should construct his or her universe and find a solution to the world's many paths towards gnosis and the many tools to obtain magical powers. The point where I become weary is where people tend to look for correspondences to say 'this is that', for example coming to a conclusion that 'LAM is the Black Snake' etc etc., which I find a complete nonsense, with no offence at any of these lovely people :-). We are not even philosophically sure what kind of entity is an "IS", but this is another story. I see a danger of a mind attempting to grasp and understand by mere equating one realities to others, simplifying things at the cost of their depth. When we put too much effort on the intersecting part, we may loose the part that does not.

Plus, it would not be good if some people because of such equation would get an idea that the Absolute Ontology of Michael Bertiaux is some kind of depatment of the modern thelemic continuum which it not only is not, but which is of wholly different approach in many aspects of magical and spiritual work. Bertiaux thread would never be here if it was not for Kenneth Grant's work, who incorporated many traditions not having anything to do with Thelema in his writings, as well.

Thus I think that first emphasis must be put on years and years of studying these two approaches separately to start tracing lines between them, if one can still find any :-).


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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SvarAbala-

Whereas your words regarding

a danger of a mind attempting to grasp and understand by mere equating one realities to others, simplifying things at the cost of their depth

is well founded, I think cross-currential work can be highly effective in producing results both in the mind of the magician and then outwards into

his or her universe

after a fashion where "equation" is replaced with, perhaps, the term "doorway." For example:

Has anyone stated:

'LAM is the Black Snake'

If so, then perhaps the error lay in the use of the word "IS." And I WOULD contest that "LAM" may manifest or come through the "Black Snake." This does not EQUATE the two as much as it establishes a connection point whereby energy patterns may both pass and evolve. Does that make sense? Further, when such occurs, it does not necessarily point to a universal application of the phenomena...but even idiosyncratic magicks are worth sharing, I find, as the dynamics involved can both shed light on universal process and offer hitherto unanticipated possibilities in that realm of experience where one's only guides are the spirit-connections forged and formed.

A Gnostic Friend once told me that the Highest Gnosis is a Wild Fire. How those ineffable flames consume barriers between symbolic categories in our souls and pursue their fiery course is both a Mystery, Experience and a Way which consumes the substance of symbol to feed the Going of the Unveling.

When dealing with the Mysteries in this Cosmic Conflagration, I personally find the work with symbolism to less "equative," less "reductionist" and more(to use the use Michael Bertiaux's wonderful word):

"Epiphenomenal."

This may fail to satisy requirements for a "rational" dissertation but nevertheless justifies itself on the grounds of the creative work, transformation, understanding and agape which it delivers into the stream of human life.

At least that's my perspective...perhaps it will look different when leaping to another strange angle. 🙂

93

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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"kidneyhawk" wrote:
A Gnostic Friend once told me that the Highest Gnosis is a Wild Fire. How those ineffable flames consume barriers between symbolic categories in our souls and pursue their fiery course is both a Mystery, Experience and a Way which consumes the substance of symbol to feed the Going of the Unveling.

Dear Kyle, maybe you should ask the friend what did he mean? 🙂 Fire does not mean to burn through philosophical cathegories and magical realms. Well, maybe the Fire of Water does. But the ultimate fire is the all creative process that actually spits forth cathegories and gives shape and tunnels to experience. If you read course IV of Michael Bertiaux, you will see how the cosmic fire forms existence into the reams of Essence and Substance, Ideality and Reality. Further, 4 elements proceed, 16 magical axioms, 64 interpretations etc. The cosmic fire provides the universe with structure. The experience of pure mystical fire is a Saturnian experience - granting both freedom and philosophical sharpness and ultimate confinement of chaos in order.

To make all into one we receive none: this is the way of New Age department. I still see the danger of making profound magical sciences into a kind of "ontology for dummies", or "Bertiaux for Thelemites". Such attempts to trace lines between systems may be, as I said, attempted after many years of studies of systems, followed by profound understanding of the two or more. Otherwise we risk getting cheap eclectism or chaos magick with no magickal result at all.

And, my Friend, even Longoria does not help you here! 🙂


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 Anonymous
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Did somebody just say 'Longoria'?! :-)!


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 Anonymous
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I was under the impression that the cosmos is 'frozen' 😯 ...to quote Led Zeppelin;

'Ah, ah, ahhhhhhhhhhh ah!
Ah, ah, ahhhhhhhhhhhh ah!
We come from the land of the ice and snow,
from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.
The hammer of the gods
Will drive our ships to new lands,
To fight the horde, singing and crying:
Valhalla, I am coming!' (I just love these lyrics!)

Maybe...Leonhard Euler and his contemporaries who shared the same sentiments for glacial Cosmogony or the Universal Ice Doctrine (Welteislehre) is true? as the universe we observe is well below the high temperatures of the Planck Constant....meaning...stars are frozen 😯

Best Wishes

Charles


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lashtal
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I'll just take this opportunity to observe that Magispiegel has chanced across the secret ancient mystical tradition of LAShTAL.COM: namely, that quoting liberally from either Led Zeppelin or James Joyce will result in the issue of a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card so far as moderation is concerned. At least for an hour or two...

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
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SvarAbala-

93

Reading over your post, it seems as if something might be getting lost in the translation. What I hear you saying is that the Degrees of Depth in Gnostic-Voudon are not to be cheapened by cavalier comparisons to other areas of occult work and thought which may bear no direct connection to the Teachings. Doing such may not only make a weird little "theory" but sidestep the power and wisdom embodied in GV by focusing on the surface "alchemy" at the expense of the ever deepening realities evoked and integretated by GV Voudon without "amplification" from other systems.

Am I right?

I will mostly agree with this but must ever defy any restriction upon how Gnosis or Thelema (and I tend to see these two words as indicative of the Same Thing, whether or not that makes you cringe 😉 ) creatively forges forms through which to manifest.

The question would seem, then, to be the VALUE of such "forged forms" which you indicate may go the way of

chaos magick with no magickal result at all.

THIS to me is an important point as endless debate over whether or not a symbolic connection is "correct" (which is to say "approved") not only spins into an entropic circle but distracts from the creative work I alluded to. I end up hearing the Voice of Aiwaz: "I forbid Argument-Conquer! That is enough."

If "conquering" connotates a successful breakthrough and breakdown of the barriers which hitherto held disparate elements at bay, then I must concur: That is enough. The Web of OKBISh shimmers and shines and new strands are spun...the Web isn't some statitc construct waiting to fall apart with the erosion of Time but is a growing living thing whose outer bounds touch the Nagual.

Remembering Grant Morrison's words regarding the lack of working with the "Darkness" in the world, I have a hard time seeing those who move on the Web and develop techniques for operating in it's "Mad Geometries" being of a fluffy bunny "New Age" ilk 😯 .

When you write

Such attempts to trace lines between systems may be, as I said, attempted after many years of studies of systems

this, to me, sounds restrictive (at least to my own Wild Fire! 😆 ) as it indicates being a good little student and getting it all down pat until graduation, where one is then free to innovate a little. This makes me think of ART-the artists of the world begin without ANY restriction, as children, drawing wildly and wonderfully. At a certain point, refinement and skill evoke the need to further refine via discipline and this leads to classes, school etc. But the practice and work therein is all in service of the vision which began the whole process and, in the best art, it all relates back to how the Spirit of the Artist is moved to convey their vision. Artists like Ernst Fuchs and Austin Spare have utterly mastered fields of anatomy, draughtsmanship etc. and all along bent it into a medium whereby to express their vision. This was their nature and their path. But to apply their approach to, say, Michael Bertiaux would be a mannacle and a mistake (can you imagine MB being chided to master anatomy before "breaking its rules" and doing his own thing?).

As Blake wrote: One Law For the Lion And Ox is Oppression.

I don't buy the "crapulous creeds" which give us lifetimes to work out our Buddhahood and evade the only moment when the Buddha may unveil...the Now. Sometimes you've just got to plunge on in, "fire up some Beast and ride the Sky-Ways." All the growing and learning and evolution and ultimate arrival at "mastering" a system will happen as a matter of course.

Wagner once wrote words regarding his altering of certain mytholgocal points in his operas, stating that the artist is above the need to conform to anything which limits the making of the art. I personally used to get so engaged in establishing the "correct" symbolic "coding" of my own images-and then realized that it was just that: a limiting of the energy and meaning which wanted to come through. The surrealists were a wonderfully liberating panacea for this mental-muck...they tap many profound psychological and occult depths, doctrines and ideas but damned if they're going to place limits on what the unconscious mind motivates.

I have a document by MB where he speaks of the Les Vudu and the Kami Spirits as connected in the wonderful unveiling of the Spiritist Current. One could easily write this off as being culturally disparate. And it certainly was not presented with the backing of, say, a Joesph Campbell's scholarship. But it was powerful, unique and stretched another strand via an 8-legged LEAP.

But this is WAY into the category of "talking overmuch" and I need to answer the Call of the Spider!

I have a strange feeling that our paths may cross again. After all, "Everything that rises must converge."

Agape & Wild Fire-!

🙂

Kyle


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 Anonymous
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Yes sir!

'Our method is Science, Our aim is Synthesis'


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 Anonymous
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Oh MY God. Can you two just agree to disagree already? Charles is posting Led Zepplin lyrics, Kyle is quoting people I've never even heard of and quite frankly I'm way too hungover to deal with this.

Why yes, Lashtal is all about me. 😉

Okay, so it's not. But you'll both get a "get out of giving Kym copious amounts of birthday gifts this year" cards, sweet deal as you both know i'm expensive. Think about it atleast. Please?

In Gnosis...or maybe i'm just hallucinating....
Kym


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 Anonymous
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Reading over your post, it seems as if something might be getting lost in the translation.

Now Kyle, how could anything be lost in translation when having a conversation on LaShTal with you?!? Now THAT'S crazy talk.. 😀


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 Anonymous
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That's so cool kyle....
It's like the chick and the egg thing, where the chick needs to finally break through the form which has nourished and protected it!
Just when I give up on this damn forum I get zapped with inspiration.
I'm limiting my studies now to commiting the calligraphy of the i-ching and tao te ching to memory. I love the Kanji Chaos so much. The 'rules' are daunting, like stroke order and symetry. But the payoff is emense when you actually produce something worth viewing more tham once. In a sense i'm learning to 'break the rules' as part of the rules. Then to use the human calligraphy of baguazhang and tai chi to charge the Bagua circle, setting into motion the cones and vortex's of chi i've created within the bagua circle is the same feeling of excitement and adventure when i commited the ritual of the 'mark of the beast' to memory.
It's that primal feeling of the 'call to evolve'.
If i want to feel full and powerful chi within the afro voudin traditions i can go nearbye a baptist church where the singing and rythem completely cuts through my hangover. Tha ancient power of the 'ring shouts' and drum circles is right there.
cool thread!!


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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Oh most excellent and best beloved...
why not pause from this (if only briefly) and take a look at

http://www.vikingkittens.com/

it is totally worth it and strangely relevant.....


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 Anonymous
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amande-de

you rock!


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 Anonymous
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"lashtal" wrote:
I'll just take this opportunity to observe that Magispiegel has chanced across the secret ancient mystical tradition of LAShTAL.COM: namely, that quoting liberally from either Led Zeppelin or James Joyce will result in the issue of a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card so far as moderation is concerned. At least for an hour or two...

Ah Paul, what can we say? Perhaps there has been a communication breakdown and I for one am dazed and confused. Time to ramble on...

Viking Kittens... absolutely purrfect! 😛

bazelek


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lashtal
(@lashtal)
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Ah, Bazelek, as ever your erudition shines brightly. You are now admitted to the LAShTAL.COM Inner Order - just promise not to tell anyone about its existence!

Oh, and by the way, everyone, the title of this thread is "Michael Bertiaux"... Just thought I'd mention it.

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