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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/08/2007 10:09 am  

Exactly, Kyle - it has nothing to do with Bertiaux or any of his organizations.

We all were very sure that the book would not only be a fascmile but an edition as it always deserved to be - with all graphs. I've also heard about new materials / lessons. Well, in my opinion of a person who was not involved in the project, the blame lies on the publisher who seems to have shown basic ignorance in his own project.

PS. to AdoniaZanoni - one of the differences that sets apart Bertiaux from most modern occultists is that he never really cared for wide audience and publicity. This is one of the things that prove him to be authentic. Plus, maybe for a truly involved adept who feels the creative fires of this book such things are not so much important. I mean - well, it's a pity the edition is not as good as it was meant to be, but in the end - it's the content that matter.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
02/08/2007 12:47 pm  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"nuhad418" wrote:
Ah but you are forgetting the ever important "looks great on the book shelf" angel.

I had that angel once in the back of my cab.

Damn it! I did the in drafts of my thesis too...Holy Guardian Angle. I need help. Or perhaps Lovecraft was right and it is actually supposed to be Holy Guardian Angle. Meh. Thanks for pointing out my illiteracy Michael! 😀


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Frater_HPK
(@frater_hpk)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 104
04/11/2007 3:47 am  
"SvarAbala" wrote:
Here is another link to a more handy .pdf format:

http://otoa-lcn.org/files/VGW_Missing_Drawings.pdf

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

The Appendix for Voudon Gnostic Workbook, Expanded Edition Errata Sheet is available for free download in pdf format from the Samuel Weiser website:

http://www.weiserbooks.com/estore/product_detail.jsp?product_group_id=1650

Love is the law, love under will

B.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
04/11/2007 10:24 am  

Picked up a copy in Atlantis on Wednesday for £30. Looks good and is making a lot of sense and seems to be very straight forward. A refreshing antidote to piling through other more "verbose" tomes


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
12/04/2008 7:16 pm  
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Thanks for your reply Tau.

Ok , when i use the description "restrictive" i was focusing on the issue of praxis here.Now from the way you have explained it, even if you have the Gnostic Vodoun material , and you practice it, and wear the T Shirt (!) it is not enough. The gnosis connected to the GV current/knowledge/secrets will not manifest through the rituals in the books. ( Is this assertion wrong?Correct me if so.) And the only way to align with the current is to be initiated into the school(?)

Now if these assertions are correct, from my point of view using Thelemic criteria this would appear to me has restrictive. Using the maxim "The law is for all" it is quite possible for someone to not be with a Thelemic order and still achieve a Thelemic initiation by themself through hardwork ,determination and motivation. To my understanding this doesnt appear to be the case with the Gnostic Voudon current. How would a Thelemite be able to follow the principles of "Do What thou Wilt.." independently and submit themselves to the will of a spiritual teacher who isnt Thelemic in outlook?

Best Regards

Sorry to quote such an old post but I felt a response of some sort was needed to this one... There are elements of Thelemic magick that are essential that are only communicated verbally through the A.'.A.'. such as the Neophyte word (though it is no longer as secret as it was, though the pronunciation is still mostly secret) but several other key elements are not known to the general populace of Thelemic students. Yes, one CAN reach enlightenment but in the same way it is with VG, one can not be an "A.'.A.'." initiate if one is not given the keys to the "A.'.A.'." system or the "O.T.O." system that is the oral lectures and secret words etc. of the grades. Yes, you can know the secret of the OTO but it does not mean you are an OTO initiate and actually some material is useless without those key words like Liber 671, Liber 220, the OTO initiations etc. Some of the instructional documents can be quite potent but without the context of the rest of the material you really can not use it to the fullest potential. I think this is what the Tau is expressing.

Uranus


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Montvid
(@montvid)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 36
13/04/2008 1:26 pm  

Crowley's mathematics is simple because everything that is genius - is simple. See the I Ching, Zen - it's beautiful people cry. Everyone who does his share of Gnana Yoga, Qabalah understands in the end that everything simple can be shown in complex ways and that is one of -1 + +1 = 0 meaning. It's ALL in the equation 0=2. Meditate you Magicians instead of trying to be cool with your complex equations and individual magic universes! 🙂 It's all in the egg hehe.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
14/04/2008 1:00 pm  
"uranus" wrote:
"hawthornrussell" wrote:
Thanks for your reply Tau.

Ok , when i use the description "restrictive" i was focusing on the issue of praxis here.Now from the way you have explained it, even if you have the Gnostic Vodoun material , and you practice it, and wear the T Shirt (!) it is not enough. The gnosis connected to the GV current/knowledge/secrets will not manifest through the rituals in the books. ( Is this assertion wrong?Correct me if so.) And the only way to align with the current is to be initiated into the school(?)

Now if these assertions are correct, from my point of view using Thelemic criteria this would appear to me has restrictive. Using the maxim "The law is for all" it is quite possible for someone to not be with a Thelemic order and still achieve a Thelemic initiation by themself through hardwork ,determination and motivation. To my understanding this doesnt appear to be the case with the Gnostic Voudon current. How would a Thelemite be able to follow the principles of "Do What thou Wilt.." independently and submit themselves to the will of a spiritual teacher who isnt Thelemic in outlook?

Best Regards

Sorry to quote such an old post but I felt a response of some sort was needed to this one... There are elements of Thelemic magick that are essential that are only communicated verbally through the A.'.A.'. such as the Neophyte word (though it is no longer as secret as it was, though the pronunciation is still mostly secret) but several other key elements are not known to the general populace of Thelemic students. Yes, one CAN reach enlightenment but in the same way it is with VG, one can not be an "A.'.A.'." initiate if one is not given the keys to the "A.'.A.'." system or the "O.T.O." system that is the oral lectures and secret words etc. of the grades. Yes, you can know the secret of the OTO but it does not mean you are an OTO initiate and actually some material is useless without those key words like Liber 671, Liber 220, the OTO initiations etc. Some of the instructional documents can be quite potent but without the context of the rest of the material you really can not use it to the fullest potential. I think this is what the Tau is expressing.

Uranus

Hi Uranus,

you are correct what these supplements are concerned. But unlike the systems you describe above in the VG and other related systems, what is extremely important APART from documents, words etc is the actual magical transmission and empowerment which is passed on from master to student. And unlike in masonic structures, where this type of initiation is actually based on rigid structures and formalities, in the VG these initiations and empowerments are individually prepared and given in accord with the students esoteric needs and situation while they follow a guideline however.
In case there is more interest in this aspect and nature of the work I would (out of my sheer lack of time right now) like to refer you to the recent publication 'Howlings' by Scarlet Imprints which features an essay by myself on the VGW and touches on these areas amongst others.

best regards,
David


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/01/2009 8:48 pm  

Just quickly: Some people suggested I post this link as it may be of interest to some of you who have discussed Voudon Gnosis and its aspects here. I resently gave an interview to Occult of Personality and we covered a field of topics, some of which you may find relevant to some of the topics on this and other related threads on lashtal. The podcast can be found here:

http://www.occultofpersonality.com/

Best and in Gnosis,

David


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/01/2009 10:20 pm  

Thanks David,

I really enjoyed your podcast.

Best Wishes

Charles


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/01/2009 11:40 pm  

I was a member of the LCN and OTOA in the 80s. Mr. Bertraux was always good about personally answering correspondence. One interesting point: he always answered my letters by writing ON the original letters and returning them with the return address cut out and pasted onto the envelope. He was either VERY into recycling or VERY cautious about "Magical Links." 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/01/2009 4:55 pm  

Hi Charles, I am happy you enjoyed it!
Poelzig, I know well Michael´s unorthodox way of lettering and I have always enjoyed it as quite magical :-)!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
26/01/2009 5:56 pm  
"Frater_HPK" wrote:
I have a question. What is the M<onastery of the Seven Rasy really? I found story about certain George Hunt Williamson. Is Monastery he visited in the sixties same as Monastery of the Seven Rays mentioned above?

Is it possible you are confusing the MSR with Marian Keech's Brotherhood of the Seven Rays? Williamson had some association with them.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
31/01/2009 3:08 am  
"TauMelchizedek" wrote:
Just quickly: Some people suggested I post this link as it may be of interest to some of you who have discussed Voudon Gnosis and its aspects here. I resently gave an interview to Occult of Personality and we covered a field of topics, some of which you may find relevant to some of the topics on this and other related threads on lashtal. The podcast can be found here:

http://www.occultofpersonality.com/

Best and in Gnosis,

David

Dear David,

I have heard the podcast, I think is really interesting, all in the OTOA-LCN magical system is interesting. I would like to have contact with you, is it possible??, my name is Eduardo Mestre, I live in Argentina ( Here in the extreme south of America, a magical land!!), and I will apreciate if you consider to interchange some kind of comunication via email with me. I am member of a very little group of study who follows Bertiaux teachings. Today, I bought your book , I am really ansious for reading it.

Well, I hope for your answer, It will be very important for me having contact with you. Do you have an email where I can write to you?, or, if you prefer, I can give you this two personal emails: eduardomestre@fibertel or eduardomestre67@yahoo.com.ar

Thank you very much for your attention.

My best wishes for you!!

Fr.Draconis
Buenos Aires
Argentina


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
31/01/2009 1:30 pm  

Draconis, I sent you a pm. I hope you will like the book, it should easily help you do dive further into the Voudon Gnostic current. I have always wanted to go to Argentina but have not managed this yet, maybe soon.
I will be in Brasil in April and May however and that´s not too far away last time I checked a map 🙂


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/09/2009 3:19 pm  

[Does anyone know when Fulgur is planing to release "Ontological Graffitti".

OG is going to be a big book, sort of a cross between the new edition of Hidden Lore and the old Voudon Gnostic Workbook. I can't say when we will be releasing the title, but perhaps early 2008 is likely?
bazelek

Is there anything new about "Ontological Graffitti"?
As really great admirer of Fulgur publishing, I also hardly wait for Vudu Cartography by Michael Bertiaux.


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Walterfive
(@walterfive)
Member
Joined: 15 years ago
Posts: 856
11/09/2009 4:46 pm  
"Montvid" wrote:
Crowley's mathematics is simple because everything that is genius - is simple. See the I Ching, Zen - it's beautiful people cry. Everyone who does his share of Gnana Yoga, Qabalah understands in the end that everything simple can be shown in complex ways and that is one of -1 + +1 = 0 meaning. It's ALL in the equation 0=2. Meditate you Magicians instead of trying to be cool with your complex equations and individual magic universes! 🙂 It's all in the egg hehe.

Thank you for saying this. "The two are one, yeah, are none." Nuit is the circle, Hadit the point, put together they make the symbol for the Sun. It's all in the egg. Ridiculous high-blown over-intellectualized wanking aside, it's all in the egg.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
11/09/2009 5:19 pm  
"petarpan" wrote:
[Does anyone know when Fulgur is planing to release "Ontological Graffitti".

OG is going to be a big book, sort of a cross between the new edition of Hidden Lore and the old Voudon Gnostic Workbook. I can't say when we will be releasing the title, but perhaps early 2008 is likely?
bazelek

Is there anything new about "Ontological Graffitti"?
As really great admirer of Fulgur publishing, I also hardly wait for Vudu Cartography by Michael Bertiaux.

We are pleased to report that the second title in the elegant ‘Bibliotheque de Verseau’ series is progressing very well. Vudu Cartography is an entirely new work from the pen of Michael Bertiaux that treats of the Vudu mysteries and will be fully illustrated with new material. Publication is slated for November 2009 and will be accompanied by an exhibition of original art from the book hosted by Treadwell’s Bookshop.

http://www.fulgur.co.uk/


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
15/09/2009 11:43 am  

Thank you for information, but as I have say, I am really big admirer of Fulgur so I know news from web-site. I was hoping for response from Bazelek with some information about “Ontological Graffitti" which is entirely different book/project.


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AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
18/05/2011 10:36 pm  

After reading this post below by Frater Barrabbas encounter and 'initiation' with Bertiaux, I really do not know what to say. Criticisms I faced is people who are into occultism are gullible, victims of charlatans, escapist of reality, and weak minded. After reading this I plan to reflect on those criticisms.

http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com/2011/04/remembering-michael-bertiaux.html

I will continue to read Michael Bertiaux’s work and try to decipher his messy handwriting when time permits, even though I am not a practitioner or follower of Voudon. I always felt there are parallels between Western Ceremonial Magic and Voodoo; this is why I read his works. For example, the way the Brazilian faith of Quimbanda has sigils comparable to the Grimoire Verum as mentioned in Jake Stratton’s True Grimoire. Also Franz Bardon mentions methods in his Practice of Magical Evocations on spirits possessing parts of your body along with non-diabolical pacts. The ‘story’ of Peter Warlock and the Abramelin square another example.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
18/05/2011 11:13 pm  

Interesting tale.


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Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4054
19/05/2011 12:12 am  
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
After reading this post below by Frater Barrabbas encounter and 'initiation' with Bertiaux, I really do not know what to say. Criticisms I faced is people who are into occultism are gullible, victims of charlatans, escapist of reality, and weak minded. After reading this I plan to reflect on those criticisms.

http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com/2011/04/remembering-michael-bertiaux.html

I will continue to read Michael Bertiaux’s work and try to decipher his messy handwriting when time permits, even though I am not a practitioner or follower of Voudon. I always felt there are parallels between Western Ceremonial Magic and Voodoo; this is why I read his works. For example, the way the Brazilian faith of Quimbanda has sigils comparable to the Grimoire Verum as mentioned in Jake Stratton’s True Grimoire. Also Franz Bardon mentions methods in his Practice of Magical Evocations on spirits possessing parts of your body along with non-diabolical pacts. The ‘story’ of Peter Warlock and the Abramelin square another example.

Why does it unsettle you? It's just one person's view. You need to make up your own mind on the basis of Bertiaux's material, I'd have thought.

I met Bertiaux for the first time at the book launch in Chicago last year, and liked him a lot. We were back in the same shop to hear an extremely interesting and erudite talk by him on aspects of Theosophy. I prefer to rely on my intuition about him than someone else's account.

Best wishes,

Michael.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
19/05/2011 12:55 am  

Interesting that the link supplied has some first hand info on Bill Schnoebelen, who now makes a living as a reformed Satanist, vampire, catholic, mason, mormon, witch....

I think Michael Bertuaux, like his work, will present a bit of a mirror to you. If you come to it expecting something sinister you might just get that. I don;t know him personally I have the impression he has an amazing sense of humor and I find his work to be very enlightening.


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AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
19/05/2011 5:58 am  
"MichaelStaley" wrote:
"AdoniaZanoni" wrote:
After reading this post below by Frater Barrabbas encounter and 'initiation' with Bertiaux, I really do not know what to say. Criticisms I faced is people who are into occultism are gullible, victims of charlatans, escapist of reality, and weak minded. After reading this I plan to reflect on those criticisms.

http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com/2011/04/remembering-michael-bertiaux.html

I will continue to read Michael Bertiaux’s work and try to decipher his messy handwriting when time permits, even though I am not a practitioner or follower of Voudon. I always felt there are parallels between Western Ceremonial Magic and Voodoo; this is why I read his works. For example, the way the Brazilian faith of Quimbanda has sigils comparable to the Grimoire Verum as mentioned in Jake Stratton’s True Grimoire. Also Franz Bardon mentions methods in his Practice of Magical Evocations on spirits possessing parts of your body along with non-diabolical pacts. The ‘story’ of Peter Warlock and the Abramelin square another example.

Why does it unsettle you? It's just one person's view. You need to make up your own mind on the basis of Bertiaux's material, I'd have thought.

I met Bertiaux for the first time at the book launch in Chicago last year, and liked him a lot. We were back in the same shop to hear an extremely interesting and erudite talk by him on aspects of Theosophy. I prefer to rely on my intuition about him than someone else's account.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Michael,

‘Sinister’ is a word I did not imply from what I wrote. The Beast 666 wanted a ‘Sinister’ reputation, so this may be a compliment to Michael Bertiaux. Reading the account left me skeptical of Michael Bertiaux. I refrained from any comments and reflected upon the criticisms about occultism mentioned.

As for your statement that you met Bertiaux once and liked him a lot, there is no way to say you really know him. Bertiaux was probably in his best form since he was marketing himself. You are correct I should not judge him only based on one account from someone else. Even though, I have agreed with that source on other issues, such as the Grimoire of Armadel.

Usually, I separate the writings and the author as a person as two separate things. For example Crowley is a brilliant author, but I do not think I would want to meet him when he was alive. Suster’s Crowley's Apprentice: The Life and Ideas of Israel Regardie mentions Regardie gave Crowley his life savings and he took advantage of a young Regardie.

Motta’s writings are interesting and hilarious, I would not want to know him, be in his order and force to give a % of my annual income and a photo. I probably would have been expelled from both his orders if I had joined when he was alive.

I may want to read the Marquis De Sade’s writings and enjoy them, but that does not mean I even have to judge him as a person on the quality of his writings?

As for Michael Bertiaux’s writings, I have three published works and some unpublished OTOA works. I will say they are interesting and unique on certain levels. I can at least say I do not find Cosmic Meditations and Vudu Cartography ‘Sinister’ and the writing flow makes his ideas understandable. I could even link the Key of Solomonother Caballistic sources to the Vudu Cartography.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
19/05/2011 6:09 am  

Michael didn't use the word "sinister" AdoniaZanoni , I did.

You are also assuming "sinister" has to imply some dark glamor rather than just malicious intent... in any case you get these stories thrown around by occultists at other occultists... Its been like that for centuries, no? Its all rather pedestrian backbiting. I have heard good and bad about Bertiaux as long as I have known of him. I take them with grains of salt.

Personally, I will always base my opinion on personal experience.

And for what its worth, I'd love to meet the Marquis De Sade... I feel confident I could resist his sexual advances if disinclined... Crowley would be great to have over for a curry.. I feel confident in my own ability not to fork over my savings to him. I'd totally have Motta over to watch his film "The Strange Hostel of Naked Pleasures" and throw darts at a photo of Grady's beergut peeking out of his Saladin costume... He can kick me out of his SOTO any day...Imagine being able to say you had a psychic war with him....

It sounds like you are more afraid of yourself and your own susceptibility than you are of these boogeymen...


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AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
19/05/2011 6:14 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Michael didn't use the word "sinister" AdoniaZanoni , I did.

You are also assuming "sinister" has to imply some dark glamor rather than just malicious intent... in any case you get these stories thrown around by occultists at other occultists... Its been like that for centuries, no? I have heard good and bad about Bertiaux as long as I have known of him. I take them with grains of salt.

Personally, I will always base my opinion on personal experience.

Michale and einDoppelganger,

Sorry for the mishap on my part. I can at least say there is nothing 'unsettling' in Michael Bertiaux’s writings.


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AdoniaZanoni
(@adoniazanoni)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 72
19/05/2011 6:30 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
It sounds like you are more afraid of yourself and your own susceptibility than you are of these boogeymen...

einDoppelganger,

That is certainly a keen observation you made of me and right on the mark. I can just say the experiences I have had had made me that way. Life is chess game and I always worry of consequences on what ever decisions I am making. There are no boogeymen, just me.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
19/05/2011 6:45 am  

I think if you keep your wits about you, a healthy dose of suspicion, maintain critical thinking, and a bit of healthy paranoia you will be fine... I'm not of teh opinion that being afraid of your own susceptibility is a bad thing. I try an be aware of my own and how it influences my decisions for better or worse.

There is something to be said for fear being part of an initiation, though... Some of Bertiaux's work plays on that explicitly - see the lesson Lycanthropic Sex Magick in the VGW. Its geared entirely around fearing being truly powerless.

That fear can be a powerful thing to transcend if you can do it with some semblance of sanity.

Cheers
S


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/05/2011 9:29 pm  

I think the fact that the author of that article was able to pound down a very large goblet of wold turkey and stay "stone cold sober" says more about his character than anything he had to say about Michael bertiaux.

"His first book is a classic that has sold for hundreds of dollars on the internet, but most would find it to be a confused mishmash of hoodoo, Haitian voudoun, Thelema, Shintoism (?) and every other obscure religious or occult system pasted together in a curious but delirious manner. To me, this book is a sinister joke, but you would have had to know Michael Bertiaux to appreciate the punch line."

Funny similar remarks can be made about the work of Crowley, Spare, and Grant, though I would say the "confused" part is often that of the readers comprehension.

" I also visited Michael with my teacher, Bill Schnoebelen, and was off-handedly initiated into the cult of Baron Samedi as a fully vested priest or houngan, you can find an article describing that event here. Do I feel different because of this event? Does this mean that I have a valid Haitian initiatory lineage included with everything else that I am working and doing with my occultism? The answer to these questions is a very solid “no.”"

Pearls before swine I guess.

"Sounds like an accurate description of any guru, master or initiator of any worth I've ever heard of, again similar things have been said about the "demon Crowley." I've also heard many instances that say the exact opposite about Bertiaux, who had or has a career as a Chicago social worker. ANyoone who has ever spent a day in the streets of Chicago knows that field of work takes courage, compassion and a caring and loving character. But it's no surprise to me he can be somewhat Janus faced. Why should it be otherwise? Maybe he just didn't like this particular smug, snarky prat.

"Besides, who had the time and money to travel to Haiti and actually perform the proper kind of research to verify what Michael was telling us? "

He could have at least read a book or two on Haitian Voodoo, like Divine Horsemen or something. Why anyone would expect something called "Gnostic Voudon" to look like Haitian Voudo is beyond me. The inclusion of the word "Gnostic" should be an indicator that this isn't yyour average run of the mill Voudon experience.

So far as this writers experiences undergoing some f the initiatory exeriences at the hands of Bertiaux, well, they sounded like they must have been a real ordeal for him. I bet a lot of that just went right over his head at the time, and still does to this day.
Throughout the article the only legitimate complaint he seem to have is with the sexual nature of the initiation rites and with Bertiaux' alleged sexual advances which seemed more geared toward making the author of the article uncomfortable, which I personally find funny. Again, very reminiscent of Crowley.

I found this last bit quite funny myself
"I believe in sharing my occult knowledge with others and in engaging with groups in a completely egalitarian manner. "

Hilarious.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
19/05/2011 10:05 pm  

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who found the article hilarious!


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/05/2011 12:22 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
There is something to be said for fear being part of an initiation, though...

Absolutely, and the Ordeals can be severe in many other ways. But also, there are opportunistic scumbags aplenty to be found in 'occult' circles. I've not met Bertiaux myself, although I've had the opportunity, so I'm not sure who would disturb who more, him or myself. 🙂


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
Member
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
20/05/2011 1:18 am  

On that note... I look back on some experiences with "opportunistic scumbags" with some fondness. I think they are all stations along the line of a valid initiation. I was simply initiating myself and they were playing a role in my own psychodrama. All initiation is self initation, after all.

Some experiences leave scars but so does anything worth remembering. or in other words;

"Beauty will be convulsive or not at all" - Andre Breton


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/05/2011 3:01 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
All initiation is self initation, after all.

True, Scott, very true.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
20/05/2011 11:55 am  

It's interesting how much you can tolerate from someone you admire, perhaps to avoid having to question whether they deserve admiration.

When reading the above tales about Bertiaux, I do find them highly amusing and think that maybe he recognised the guys visiting him for a couple of halfwits and decided to extract as much fun from the situation as possible.

But should we just laugh off stories of aggressive sexual advances just because the almost-victim is a guy who looks like he can probably handle himself even after half a bottle of whiskey? After reading the blog story I thought, would I find it as funny if I read a similar story with different characters? What if it was a story about a teenage girl who visited a guys home and he tried to force himself onto her claiming it was part of an "initiation"?


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OKontrair
(@okontrair)
Member
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 501
20/05/2011 12:06 pm  

All very well until it got to this bit.

"nashimiron" wrote:
What if it was a story about a teenage girl who visited a guys home and he tried to force himself onto her claiming it was part of an "initiation"?

Because it wasn't.

I expect this fellow sometimes eats a cheese sandwich. But how repulsive it would be if it were a live kitten!

OK


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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20/05/2011 12:30 pm  

Talk about missing the point...

🙄


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 Anonymous
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20/05/2011 1:03 pm  

I have to admit that I am very much enjoying his 'Voudon Gnostic Workbook'. Before this, all I knew of bertiaux was from Grant's 'Cults of the Shadow'.


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 Anonymous
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20/05/2011 1:15 pm  
"nashimiron" wrote:
It's interesting how much you can tolerate from someone you admire, perhaps to avoid having to question whether they deserve admiration.

I make it habit to consistently check for alternating views on occult-related authors. Even with writing I feel a profound connection to, it is always helpful to fully take in a critical analysis of both the work and the author, remembering both are subjective to your limited perspective & bias.


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 Anonymous
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20/05/2011 5:39 pm  

As a hopeless turophile, OK is easily distracted. 😉


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
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19/09/2011 8:52 pm  

Brief excerpt of a relatively recent interview with Michael Bertiaux about Count Dante, the "deadliest man alive!"

http://vimeo.com/29274281


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 Anonymous
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20/09/2011 1:18 am  

How would one go about watching the entire interview?


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 Anonymous
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20/09/2011 1:21 am  

Wait until the documentary gets released?


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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Posts: 915
20/09/2011 1:55 am  
"Spirals" wrote:
Wait until the documentary gets released?

The doco is caught up in legal limbo - if you research Dante himself there are interesting second hand reports of his "black magic buddy" who went out and found women for Dante to perform porno film sex magic with... These are statement by fellow Martial Arts folks not at all connected to the occult.

http://blackdragonfightingsociety.blogspot.com/2007/12/choronzon-club-and-john-keehan.html

There is a lot of animosity toward CD / Keehan from various circles so the story may not be true... Its a great tale and I bet MB would be the last to snuff it out 🙂


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 Anonymous
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20/09/2011 4:32 am  

Actually I think the doc has been cleared through legal channels, Fair Use, all that sort of thing so I don't think it's gonna be that long. Who knows tho.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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20/09/2011 4:46 am  

That would be nice, I was under the impression a family member was suing to hold it up. Who know... I'd love to see it though.


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 686
21/09/2011 1:11 am  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Its a great tale

Don't know if I'd call it great, lurid maybe.

Looks like an interesting film - wonder if he ever met this dude: Kendo Nagasaki.
One of the oddest moments in British wrestling history - here.


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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21/09/2011 1:34 am  
"amadan-De" wrote:
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
Its a great tale

Don't know if I'd call it great, lurid maybe.

Looks like an interesting film - wonder if he ever met this dude: Kendo Nagasaki.
One of the oddest moments in British wrestling history - here.

hah... are great and lurid mutually exclusive in the context of the VGW?
Where does the reality end and the degenerate metafiction begin? 🙂


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Ariock
(@ariock)
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Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 108
21/09/2011 6:01 pm  

I was recently engaged in a group discussion on this same "Frater Barrabbas" post. On face-value the Frater’s overall intent may seem to be insulting, to be critical, and to "give warning", but he also describes Bertiaux as "highly creative", "extremely imaginative", and "charming". He compliments his sense of humor and says he has an "astonishing imagination". He says that he is a "capable occultist", and is complimentary to his skills as a host and bartender. By posting this it shows that even after 30 years, he can't get Bertiaux him out of his mind.
He was hanging out with people who apparently went to M.B.'s house, shared pleasantries, had drinks, and had sex with him. He then comes to M.B.'s house and does the same, and claims that there was some kind of foul play going on, and is critical of Bertiaux for it. He doesn't speak of working M7Rs coursework or studying any related materials. In fact, he speaks of an utter failure to read the VGW. Apparently, the only real connection he had with the Esoteric Voudon Current was being friends with people M.B. partied with. So he then shows up and expects "initiation"?

Into what?


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amadan-De
(@amadan-de)
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21/09/2011 10:25 pm  
"einDoppelganger" wrote:
hah... are great and lurid mutually exclusive in the context of the VGW?
Where does the reality end and the degenerate metafiction begin? 🙂

😀 I was reading the tale as simply what it says - pal of Dante's uses "black magic" (AKA money and drugs) to 'recruit' women for pornographic filming, but if we are getting all meta with it I suppose all bets are off....or is it on?


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einDoppelganger
(@eindoppelganger)
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Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 915
23/09/2011 10:20 am  

Well put Ariock!

"amadan-De" wrote:
...if we are getting all meta with it I suppose all bets are off....or is it on?

heheh 🙂
I suppose it doesn't really matter - its all a relative narrative filled with as much fear and loathing as one cares to project into it ; )


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 Anonymous
Joined: 51 years ago
Posts: 0
25/09/2011 12:46 am  
"Ariock" wrote:
Apparently, the only real connection he had with the Esoteric Voudon Current was being friends with people M.B. partied with. So he then shows up and expects "initiation"?

Into what?

Quite. Apparently Frater Barrabas (aka Brian Watling) has never attended nor was part of any Voudon ceremonies involving Michael Bertiaux.

Perhaps this is the real motivation behind his somewhat conflicted post... 🙄

bazelek


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