Notifications
Clear all

The Primal Grimoire  

  RSS

jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
11/06/2014 12:37 pm  

As it seems appropriate to the nature of the subject on this board here ("Typhonian Concepts and Practice") & I can’t seem to find the answer given on the website concerned ("The Purple, I mean, The Primal Grimoire") and am not yet a member to enquire there further either, might I just enquire whether this phrase would refer to The Book of the Law, The Necronomicon, or some other volume of sacred lore?

And also the reason why it was given such prominence – i.e., what caused the website to be named after it, rather than, say, Ordo Typhonis, or the Order of the Typhonian Order, or somesuch (There is a reason behind my enquiry which I may or may not go into further at the moment, depending upon the nature of any replies.)

Grimoirely Feendish (- “he’s horrible!”)
Norma N Joy Conquest


Quote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
11/06/2014 7:00 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
As it seems appropriate to the nature of the subject on this board here ("Typhonian Concepts and Practice") & I can’t seem to find the answer given on the website concerned ("The Purple, I mean, The Primal Grimoire") and am not yet a member to enquire there further either, might I just enquire whether this phrase would refer to The Book of the Law, The Necronomicon, or some other volume of sacred lore?

It doesn't refer to any specific text, but to an underlying or archetypal grimoire of which, you could maintain, all grimoires are but partial earthings. Neither does it need to be formally textual; the word grimoire is considered to be related to grammar. I see grimoire as in this sense betokening a language of gnosis.

"jamie barter" wrote:
And also the reason why it was given such prominence – i.e., what caused the website to be named after it, rather than, say, Ordo Typhonis, or the Order of the Typhonian Order, or somesuch (There is a reason behind my enquiry which I may or may not go into further at the moment, depending upon the nature of any replies.)

There were many terms which could have been chosen as the name; this was the one upon which we settled. Most people interested in the works of Kenneth Grant prefer to work alone, and don't want to join groups or Orders. The forums are there for people to discuss the work of Kenneth Grant and others working in that tradition; it's unrelated to the Order. Similarly, in my experience, many people who are interested in the work of Aleister Crowley have no interest in joining an Order.


ReplyQuote
lashtal
(@lashtal)
Owner and Editor Admin
Joined: 17 years ago
Posts: 5320
11/06/2014 7:07 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
There were many terms which could have been chosen as the name; this was the one upon which we settled. Most people interested in the works of Kenneth Grant prefer to work alone, and don't want to join groups or Orders. The forums are there for people to discuss the work of Kenneth Grant and others working in that tradition; it's unrelated to the Order. Similarly, in my experience, many people who are interested in the work of Aleister Crowley have no interest in joining an Order.

I lost count of the emails enquiring why I chose the domain name of LAShTAL for this site. Ultimately, these sites are what they are. Some sites seek large hit numbers - this one doesn't, preferring that members know at least a little of the subject. I've always assumed much the same applies to 'The Primal Grimoire'.

Owner and Editor
LAShTAL


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
12/06/2014 12:18 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
It doesn't refer to any specific text, but to an underlying or archetypal grimoire of which, you could maintain, all grimoires are but partial earthings. Neither does it need to be formally textual; the word grimoire is considered to be related to grammar. I see grimoire as in this sense betokening a language of gnosis.

Thank you for the interesting and informative explanation in its way there.  I did in fact consider that the “grimoire” or “Primal Grimoire” might not refer to a specific text (e.g. The Book of the Law, Necronomicon) as such or else, alternatively, that the website itself may be the grimoire – but the reason I made the enquiry was because there seemed to be this element of ambiguity which was not immediately resolved after research, and reasoning as I did that I probably wouldn’t be the only person who was unsure about this matter either.

"Michael Staley" wrote:
There were many terms which could have been chosen as the name; this was the one upon which we settled. Most people interested in the works of Kenneth Grant prefer to work alone, and don't want to join groups or Orders. The forums are there for people to discuss the work of Kenneth Grant and others working in that tradition; it's unrelated to the Order. Similarly, in my experience, many people who are interested in the work of Aleister Crowley have no interest in joining an Order.

So, TPG is not the “official” website of the Typhonian Order either.  Taken along with Starfire Publishing, then, it seems doubtful that there will actually be a web presence for the Typhonian Order itself, or certainly for the foreseeable future, although anybody enquiring into the matter would notice that (even though the Typhonian Order no longer “trades” under the name O.T.O. itself, or at least publically) there is a definite presence for both the (Caliphornian) O.T.O. International Inc. as well as for the  Motta offshoot  “Society O.T.O.” 

Please correct if this is an incorrect perception, and if so would there be any particular reason for this not being the case over and above that stated in your reply? (i.e., for the benefit of those “people interested in the works of Kenneth Grant [who don’t] prefer to work alone, and [who do] want to join groups or Orders.”)

"lashtal" wrote:
I lost count of the emails enquiring why I chose the domain name of LAShTAL for this site. Ultimately, these sites are what they are. Some sites seek large hit numbers - this one doesn't, preferring that members know at least a little of the subject. I've always assumed much the same applies to 'The Primal Grimoire'.

Lashtal.com appears to be the domain name of the site whereas it is “The Forums of the Aleister Crowley Society” which is more prominent & greets one when logging in to the Forums, with “LAShTAL.COM Community Forum” adjacent to it albeit in much smaller print.  Conversely, on the actual Home Page, equal weight is given to both “LAShTAL” (which comes first there) and “The Home of the Aleister Crowley Society”.  I’ve never been quite sure about whether they are both meant to carry equal weight or whether one is meant to be more a subtitle of the other?  Perhaps ‘LAShTAL’ may be a convenient abbreviatory shorthand for "The Aleister Crowley Society", although mentioning the “Home” with it does also carry an additional suggestion that the Society might exist externally outside the web in its own right, and just happens to have taken up residence for the time being on the domain of the Lash itself!

Well “it’s all in a name, I suppose!” (?!)
N Joy


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
12/06/2014 2:29 pm  
"jamie barter" wrote:
Thank you for the interesting and informative explanation in its way there.  I did in fact consider that the “grimoire” or “Primal Grimoire” might not refer to a specific text (e.g. The Book of the Law, Necronomicon) as such or else, alternatively, that the website itself may be the grimoire – but the reason I made the enquiry was because there seemed to be this element of ambiguity which was not immediately resolved after research, and reasoning as I did that I probably wouldn’t be the only person who was unsure about this matter either.

Ambiguity is sometimes appropriate, leaving space for imagination. Not everything needs to be cut and dried.

"jamie barter" wrote:
So, TPG is not the “official” website of the Typhonian Order either.  Taken along with Starfire Publishing, then, it seems doubtful that there will actually be a web presence for the Typhonian Order itself, or certainly for the foreseeable future, although anybody enquiring into the matter would notice that (even though the Typhonian Order no longer “trades” under the name O.T.O. itself, or at least publically) there is a definite presence for both the (Caliphornian) O.T.O. International Inc. as well as for the  Motta offshoot  “Society O.T.O.” 

Please correct if this is an incorrect perception, and if so would there be any particular reason for this not being the case over and above that stated in your reply? (i.e., for the benefit of those “people interested in the works of Kenneth Grant [who don’t] prefer to work alone, and [who do] want to join groups or Orders.”)

Your perception is correct: there's no Order website. It's a matter of irrelevance that other Orders have websites; it's not a competition. People seriously interested in Orders have the ingenuity to work out where to go, website or no website; after all, they seemed to manage it in the days before the internet.


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
12/06/2014 3:38 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
Ambiguity is sometimes appropriate, leaving space for imagination. Not everything needs to be cut and dried.

A wise and perceptive comment.  But clarification too is also sometimes appropriate...

"Michael Staley" wrote:
Your perception is correct: there's no Order website. It's a matter of irrelevance that other Orders have websites; it's not a competition.

Heaven forbid!!  I was just observing that the other would-be-O.T.O.’s for better or worse have a tangible web presence, that’s all.

"Michael Staley" wrote:
People seriously interested in Orders have the ingenuity to work out where to go, website or no website; after all, they seemed to manage it in the days before the internet.

It sometimes seems hard to imagine that there ever were days before the internet – in some ways that is rather a pity, I feel, & it serves to add more fuel to the fire of my more neo-Luddite tendencies.

With best wishes
N Joy


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
17/06/2014 1:49 pm  

I was thinking about this thread and wondering what it was about it that still felt unanswered – to me, anyway, despite the fact that Michael has given a perfectly full and acceptable response to the original query raised.  When I reflected about it some more, I found that it circulated around the confirmation that there wasn’t, isn’t – and was unlikely to be – a website for the Typhonian Order although I had pointed out “there is a definite presence for both the (Caliphornian) O.T.O. International Inc. as well as for the  Motta offshoot  “Society O.T.O.”
 
It’s true that TPG in no way appears to advertise itself in this way.  Its raison d’etre is given as

TPG exists to promote the study and development of the work and legacy of Kenneth Grant and others working in similar areas of the occult

Also, Michael stated in his original reply that the forum was “there for people to discuss the work of Kenneth Grant and others working in that tradition; it is unrelated to the Order.” [My italics.] 

However, over and above the additional comment that

"Michael Staley" wrote:
Your perception is correct: there's no Order website. It's a matter of irrelevance that other Orders have websites [...]

by there being a specific absence of any online forum/resources/presence for the Order, the vacuum thus presented suggests that the one for Kenneth Grant is quite sufficient; is in lieu of.  This is fair enough of course, but there is a danger that it may become stuck in time, in the past; that the Typhonian Order might not appear to develop further & beyond the presence of KG himself (which departed in earthly terms, in 2011 EV).  (There is also a possible danger of an advent of a "debased cult of Grantianity".)

This ironically was the position which the C.O.T.O. found itself in, and notably more so after the death of McMurtry in 1985: in relation to being doomed to perpetuating itself in (re-)publishing (not that it has particulary excelled in recycling here, overall) all of the works of A.C.; instead of perceptibly developing a magicko-mystical system with additional groundbreaking new work.  In terms of parampara, the leadership of the [Typhonian] Order has passed to yourself, Michael – but does this mean that you [do not] intend to be taking the work of Kenneth Grant further forwards yourself, and even adding your own slant (and trilogies?!) to proceedings – or will you, similar to H.B., tend to maintain the existing status quo in a curatorial role rather than strike out for new continents?  (and I am not speaking of the membership generally of either Order, but specifically by the Headships of each, in terms of their own work developing and carrying on a Thelemic tradition and corpus of work? In the sense that the role of the Head is therefore technically more ‘administrative’ than strictly magickal, in the sense of refining the technology.)  I hasten to say that I am not being condemnatory of this, should it be the case; I think I remain neutral on the matter, but it would be useful (and not just for myself) to be aware of where the land (/ continental shelf) lies.  And of course, the current position would not be hide-bound for all time: anyone is free to ‘change their mind’ and/or do something differently in due course.

(My own reason for asking here is as a socio-magickal historian, in the sense of describing a current present-day context for the actions pertaining to the development of one of A.C.’s Orders in terms of its own ongoing legacy.)

N Joy


ReplyQuote
SatansAdvocaat
(@satansadvocaat)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 351
19/06/2014 2:19 pm  

Hi Jamie,

My, you do have a lot of apparent interest in 'The Primal Grimoire' website.  Michael has responded to your observations, and quite adequately so, in my opinion.  I would simply like to add the following.  When you go on to the website, as you should know, the headline states: 'Typhonian Mysteries'.  While the focus is on the discussion and interpretation of the work of Kenneth Grant - as the focus on LAShTAL is on the work of Aleister Crowley - that headline implies a broader context and purpose, than being merely some sort of Grantian adulation group.  In fact, as you should know, both members and guests alike display a wide diversity of approaches to the way in which they both appreciate and utilise the Typhonian Trilogies, etc.  The fact that the site is not a formal Typhonian Order website is appreciated by many, in that they feel that it gives them the freedom to express their individualism with regard to the Typhonian Current.

At the same time, if you go through the various topics, you will discern the presence of the Typhonian Order within them.  In this respect, and this is my personal opinion and I may be at variance with Michael here, the forums could be regarded as a form of 'outer court' to the Order itself.  Anyway, that is my perspective as a user of the site.

Nice to put in an appearance once again on LAShTAL, by the way.

Regards  -  Satan's Advocaat.


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
19/06/2014 3:56 pm  

Hi Satan'sAdvocaat,

"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
Hi Jamie,
My, you do have a lot of apparent interest in 'The Primal Grimoire' website.  Michael has responded to your observations, and quite adequately so, in my opinion.  I would simply like to add the following.

Yes, over and above my studies as a ‘historian’ incorporating various 'circles of time', I have an abiding interest in & natural curiosity about a lot of different things!  And "nowt wrong with that", I feel… You will note that I did state Michael had responded quite “adequately” to my initial query/ observations and that what followed was more in the way of an addendum to the original subject matter.  It is of course up to him if he wants to reply or not, that is his rightful prerogative, as you also have decided to exercise here; and equally so it is that of anyone wishing to ask questions in the context of an intelligent forum for the stimulating discussion of various related issues.

"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
When you go on to the website, as you should know, the headline states: 'Typhonian Mysteries'.  While the focus is on the discussion and interpretation of the work of Kenneth Grant - as the focus on LAShTAL is on the work of Aleister Crowley - that headline implies a broader context and purpose, than being merely some sort of Grantian adulation group.

Yes, the use of “Typhonian Mysteries” would be rather more broad ranging than concentrating purely on Kenneth Grant, since it would also specifically include (as Lashtal does) e.g. Austin Spare, etc.  However the “Typhonian Mysteries” don’t particularly seem to take second place to the site’s concentrating upon Kenneth Grant, since although these words (Typhonian Mysteries) might very well appear right at the front of its Home page, they are also immediately followed by the rubric : “Welcome to The Primal Grimoire. This forum is designed for people who wish to study the occult writings of Kenneth Grant”. 

"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
In fact, as you should know, both members and guests alike display a wide diversity of approaches to the way in which they both appreciate and utilise the Typhonian Trilogies, etc.  The fact that the site is not a formal Typhonian Order website is appreciated by many, in that they feel that it gives them the freedom to express their individualism with regard to the Typhonian Current.

However I cannot see why any user’s sense of individuality should be affected by the sentiments expressed in that last sentence: it shouldn’t make that much difference & especially if their freedom is not restricted in any way by their being an initiate (and if that is quite the same thing as a member, of course.)

"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
At the same time, if you go through the various topics, you will discern the presence of the Typhonian Order within them.

There still seems to be a sense abroad that the Typhonian Order likes to think of itself as carrying on being a sort of “secret society”, in spite of the fact that these are increasingly going out of vogue in this day and age, and perhaps this is the reason why details are relatively hard to come by to ‘outsiders’ when there will often be a type of ‘fascination’ created by its association with the O.T.O. as part of Aleister Crowley’s overall legacy. 

"Satan'sAdvocaat" wrote:
In this respect, and this is my personal opinion and I may be at variance with Michael here, the forums could be regarded as a form of 'outer court' to the Order itself.  Anyway, that is my perspective as a user of the site.

As I am not a member, I can’t really offer an opinion on this ‘outer court’ aspect; possibly someone else might chime in to contribute & relay further here, as this particular form of self analysis seems to be lacking on TPG itself at the moment, I feel.

Well come back, by the way!
N Joy


ReplyQuote
Michael Staley
(@michael-staley)
MANIO - it's all in the egg
Joined: 16 years ago
Posts: 4021
20/06/2014 11:53 am  
"Jamie Barter" wrote:
By there being a specific absence of any online forum/resources/presence for the Order, the vacuum thus presented suggests that the one for Kenneth Grant is quite sufficient; is in lieu of.  This is fair enough of course, but there is a danger that it may become stuck in time, in the past; that the Typhonian Order might not appear to develop further & beyond the presence of KG himself (which departed in earthly terms, in 2011 EV).  (There is also a possible danger of an advent of a "debased cult of Grantianity".)

I'm surprised to hear that such dire consequences might flow from not having an Order website; thanks for the warning.

"Jamie Barter" wrote:
In terms of parampara, the leadership of the [Typhonian] Order has passed to yourself, Michael – but does this mean that you [do not] intend to be taking the work of Kenneth Grant further forwards yourself, and even adding your own slant (and trilogies?!) to proceedings – or will you, similar to H.B., tend to maintain the existing status quo in a curatorial role rather than strike out for new continents?

I'm intending to take the work forward rather than simply propagate the work of Kenneth Grant. However, it isn't just me doing that. We all take inspiration from a variety of sources and transform it through our own magical and mystical experience to develop an innate body of work. This in turn becomes one of a myriad sources that inspire others, who in turn develop their body of work through their experience. And thus it continues: ongoing development.


ReplyQuote
jamie barter
(@jamie-barter)
Member
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 1688
20/06/2014 12:38 pm  
"Michael Staley" wrote:
"Jamie Barter" wrote:
By there being a specific absence of any online forum/resources/presence for the Order, the vacuum thus presented suggests that the one for Kenneth Grant is quite sufficient; is in lieu of.  This is fair enough of course, but there is a danger that it may become stuck in time, in the past; that the Typhonian Order might not appear to develop further & beyond the presence of KG himself (which departed in earthly terms, in 2011 EV).  (There is also a possible danger of an advent of a "debased cult of Grantianity".)

I'm surprised to hear that such dire consequences might flow from not having an Order website; thanks for the warning.

You’re most welcome & glad if I have been of some help here!  We must all do our bit to try to avoid the prospect of “dire consequences” (although personally, I don't give a fig for whether the order might have a website presence either way!)  But thank you too for answering, Michael. 

"Michael Staley" wrote:
"Jamie Barter" wrote:
In terms of parampara, the leadership of the [Typhonian] Order has passed to yourself, Michael – but does this mean that you [do not] intend to be taking the work of Kenneth Grant further forwards yourself, and even adding your own slant (and trilogies?!) to proceedings – or will you, similar to H.B., tend to maintain the existing status quo in a curatorial role rather than strike out for new continents?

I'm intending to take the work forward rather than simply propagate the work of Kenneth Grant. However, it isn't just me doing that. We all take inspiration from a variety of sources and transform it through our own magical and mystical experience to develop an innate body of work. This in turn becomes one of a myriad sources that inspire others, who in turn develop their body of work through their experience. And thus it continues: ongoing development.

This is all very nicely and poetically expressed, and I am sure everyone will look forward to seeing the great work taken forward to these new everests of possibility in the future.  However, there doesn’t seem to be anything within this fine aspiration to indicate that any of this might be within the special exclusive purview of the Typhonian Order: would there be a ‘unique’ point of the Typhonian Order from its position as the Typhonian Order therefore, and if so what might that be?

Talking of “a myriad sources”, to concentrate upon just one here: might I enquire whether the emphasis within the Order of the writings/ cosmic viewpoint of H.P. Lovecraft would be made greater or lesser in due course – in your own estimation, based upon previous experience - and would you be for or against that?
 
NJoy


ReplyQuote
Share: