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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/03/2010 12:12 am  

David Beth and Kyle Fite,

I have a question for you two masters of voudon. What do you think about this book "The Spider and the Green Butterfly"? That is, if y'all have read it.
Anyone else who owns this book is welcome to give a review. I've become interested in integrating some of the Voudon practices with the Sabbatic (A.O.S and Cumbley's), Thelemic, and Typhonian practices that I already Work with. As you can see, I draw inspiration and Gnosis from a variety of sources (Lovecraft too, of course). I was wondering if the two of you (or anyone else here) found this book to be a good one or not.

P.S. David, I really enjoy "Voudon Gnosis" the chapters on "Amor" and Time Travel were extremely inpirational and have been put into practice. Really, Great Work...looking forward to your next publication.


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michaelclarke18
(@michaelclarke18)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1264
28/03/2010 11:44 am  

I've become interested in integrating some of the Voudon practices with the Sabbatic (A.O.S and Cumbley's), Thelemic, and Typhonian practices

I would like to ask about whether it really makes sense to pick and choose practices from different systems, or should stick to one system and attempt to learn in greater depth?

I'm curious, as I would have thought it better to stick to one system of attainment, rather that mix. Having said that, throught his life, AC incorporated elements from a number of different systems i.e. OTO, Tantra, GD etc.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/03/2010 2:39 pm  

Thanks NOX, much appreciated. I think you will be happy than about some forthcoming news very soon.
In regards to the Spider and Butterfly book, I personally do not find it useful for various reasons and this opinion is shared by most people I know.
Best
David

"N.O.X" wrote:
David Beth and Kyle Fite,

I have a question for you two masters of voudon. What do you think about this book "The Spider and the Green Butterfly"? That is, if y'all have read it.
Anyone else who owns this book is welcome to give a review. I've become interested in integrating some of the Voudon practices with the Sabbatic (A.O.S and Cumbley's), Thelemic, and Typhonian practices that I already Work with. As you can see, I draw inspiration and Gnosis from a variety of sources (Lovecraft too, of course). I was wondering if the two of you (or anyone else here) found this book to be a good one or not.

P.S. David, I really enjoy "Voudon Gnosis" the chapters on "Amor" and Time Travel were extremely inpirational and have been put into practice. Really, Great Work...looking forward to your next publication.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/03/2010 2:46 pm  

I personally would investigate one system deeply and once you have mastered this or are deeply involved with it, you can of course keep an open mind and eyes and draw practices and ideas from other system into it. But I am a very strong believer in depths and focus. I have yet to see an initiate who truly achieves by only mixing superficially techniques and ideas. A sufi master once said: if you want to find water in the desert, dig one deep hole and not 100 shallow ones :)!
Even in the case of Bertiaux( Theosophy, christian gnosis and esoteric voudon) and others, you can see their deep learning in one or two related traditions before they draw other ideas into it which they can then easily assimilate due to their exact knowledge of the mother system. This is however just my personal opinion of course.
Salutes
David

"michaelclarke18" wrote:

I've become interested in integrating some of the Voudon practices with the Sabbatic (A.O.S and Cumbley's), Thelemic, and Typhonian practices

I would like to ask about whether it really makes sense to pick and choose practices from different systems, or should stick to one system and attempt to learn in greater depth?

I'm curious, as I would have thought it better to stick to one system of attainment, rather that mix. Having said that, throught his life, AC incorporated elements from a number of different systems i.e. OTO, Tantra, GD etc.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/03/2010 2:55 pm  

P.S. an awesome book on Voudon, also from the esoteric and not only exoteric perspective, is Milo Rigaud `secrets of voodoo`. non-pretentious, not pseudo dark or want to be sinister, but straight to the point inside information on a fascinating religious and magical system by someone who knows his stuff. Has been a classic for years and I am loving it. I am sure Kyle and everyone here familiar with Voudon can confirm that.

"N.O.X" wrote:
David Beth and Kyle Fite,

I have a question for you two masters of voudon. What do you think about this book "The Spider and the Green Butterfly"? That is, if y'all have read it.
Anyone else who owns this book is welcome to give a review. I've become interested in integrating some of the Voudon practices with the Sabbatic (A.O.S and Cumbley's), Thelemic, and Typhonian practices that I already Work with. As you can see, I draw inspiration and Gnosis from a variety of sources (Lovecraft too, of course). I was wondering if the two of you (or anyone else here) found this book to be a good one or not.

P.S. David, I really enjoy "Voudon Gnosis" the chapters on "Amor" and Time Travel were extremely inpirational and have been put into practice. Really, Great Work...looking forward to your next publication.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
28/03/2010 10:00 pm  

Thanks, David, for the information on the "Secrets of Voodoo" book, I'll have check that one out. I very much value your opinion, and I'll take it into consideration regarding "The Spider and the Green Butterfly".

In regards to the myriad of "Currents" that I draw inspiration from: it is all essentially ONE current. A quote from Cumbley's article "The Cult of the Divine Artist", I think, will be helpful:

"The Magical Current is the vital energetic continuum which motivates the activities of initiated states of entity within the universe. Its manifestation in the World is determined by the forms through which it is transmitted. The vehicles of transmission are manifold and are specialized to fulfil the requirements of Time, Place, and Purpose......Wherever the fulguralis strikes, the omen-bearing lighenting bolt-there too is the Divine Artist! The spectra of his expression-the scope of all consciousness; the nature of his expression-the vital energetic fleshing of magical aesthesis, -such is his form cast through eternity: One Body divided between the pantheon incarnate of Man! Such is the Gnosis of the Divine Artist."

I admit that I do not know too much about Voudon, yet. (hence my query about the book). I have been delving very deeply into the Sabbattic and Thelemic/Typhonian practices since I began my magickal/mysical path over nine years ago. (Yes, I am a young one, but experinces far outweigh age.) Deeply enough, I believe, to draw upon the Current(s) as I see fit to use the forces through the lens my Gnosis in my own magickal universe. 'Nuff said.


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SatansAdvocaat
(@satansadvocaat)
Member
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 351
29/03/2010 12:15 pm  

Hello N.O.X.

Had not heard of "The Spider and the Green Butterfly" before - from a quick search I would say it looks OK, but nothing special. However, I would certainly agree with Tau Melchizedek that Milo Rigaud's "Secrets of Voodoo" is excellent and essential reading. And if you are deeply interested, you might consider the same author's "VE-VE: Ritual Diagrams of Voodoo", a huge paperback with a theoretical introduction in English, French and Spanish and then jam-packed with veves - it kind of resembles a children's bumper colouring book - but it don't come cheap ! I got well into Vodu/Voudoun when I was doing my Astarte Working for Maitresse Erzulie and the Ve-Ve manual was exceedingly useful.

Regards - S.A.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
29/03/2010 7:56 pm  

S.A.,
Thanks for the info on "VE-VE". I understand that it might not come chaep, but you get what you pay for, eh?


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kidneyhawk
(@kidneyhawk)
Member
Joined: 14 years ago
Posts: 1815
29/03/2010 9:10 pm  

N.O.X.,

Hi. I wouldn't claim to be a "master of voudon," although it continues to be an ever-growing aspect of my personal Path and one with a myriad of possibilities for anyone who is drawn to it.

I've not read either of the books in question although I have to add my own thanks to SA for the recommendation of VE-VE, which I'll also seek out, as the use of artistry in Voudoo and the Magical Arts remains a primary focus for me and was one of the elements which I found most mystifying and intriguing with regards to the African Mysteries.

I am very much in agreement with the soundness of the admonition to

investigate one system deeply and once you have mastered this or are deeply involved with it, you can of course keep an open mind and eyes and draw practices and ideas from other system into it

The Gnostic Voudon of Michael Bertaiux and his sundry schools, however, opens, from the start, into an extraordinarily eclectic field of activity, where one is weaving through Haitian Voodou, Shintoism, I Ching, Astrology, Gnostic Liturgy, Jungian Psychology, Lovecraft, numerous systems of philosophy and so forth. One can feel overwhelmed by the diversity of thought and form-and spend a lifetime trying to research the source material and "keep up!" It is helpful to have a fundamental clarity as to what one's path is about and how it relies on some basic foundational structures. Bertiaux will reference what he calls the "Universal Creole Cabala" which gets at this idea. It is the underlying "Logic" which informs the emergence of Voudoo forms in his work. Getting at this "matrix" we find that integration of diverse elements into the "Grand System" becomes a source of revelation as opposed to confusion and dissolution of energy.


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 Anonymous
Joined: 50 years ago
Posts: 0
30/03/2010 10:53 pm  

Thanks for your imput, Kyle. No need to be so modest, Kyle, you are a master at your Arte, well to me anyway. You have explained many things more clearly than anyone else on this site has, in your time here. I have learned a lot from you. I consider you the greatest living occult artist in the world. Your myriad "Gateway" painting truly are magickal Gateways and contain the keys to open them, if one knows where to look. Your work is on par with Spare's, in its magickal quality and potency. Therefore, I consider you to be a Master.

I don't know if you've checked out my recent post on Spectrallight yet, Kyle. It was about a recommendation of a novel about voodoo. It's called "Legion of the Dead: A Novel of Love and Voodoo" by Hugh B. Cave. I highly recommend you check this novel out Kyle (you should read it as well David). I thought it was excellent. It seems to me like the author really knew his stuff! I don't know how hard this book may be to find as the one I have is "First Avon Printing, July 1979". It also says "LEGION OF THE DEAD is an original publication of Avon Books. This work has never before appeard in book form." I really enjoyed the read and I'm sure you guys will too!


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